The Spin
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5325
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 15:30
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Spin
Posted By: The Duke
Subject: The Spin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 15:50
|
So I mailed Death dealer of H? in order to get the list of towns capped razed and exo'd set straight and was told to talk to a director. So i mailed KP. KP was unwilling to give the towns out for H? side even tho I was volunteering the info for ours. The spin that H? are somehow winning and they have always been honorable is crap.
Let me jus name a few things here H? POLICE(y) Suddenly H? has a new policy based on their war ethics. A policy their allies and even themselves have not adhered to in previous wars. How ironically convenient H? have always been cuddly and romantic with crows throughout their history. So what about Rill being trolled every chance they get to the point you never see her in GC anymore and shes all but left the game? What about the Rills alt seiged by H? confed NC knowing the account was to remain in crows hands. I can promise the same thing wouldnt have been tolerated if it was a T? account such as Indomitable. ------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Replies:
Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 16:04
|
It's been shown in the other thread that during the Consone war H? was the alliance encouraging all Coalition alliances to limit how many cities are removed from a single player. You conveniently forget the many public attacks made by Rill on H? and specific H? players, after a while we got tired of listening to them and responded in kind - she initiated that conflict and made the bed that she now has to lie in. So basically this post is a continuation of the lies you've spouted both in our public forum and in private messages to H? players. In short, nothing you say can be trusted and you are, in fact, spinning harder than you claim we are. ------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 16:11
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
KillerPoodle wrote:Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 16:17
|
Duke-- you can't even back your claims of cities razed in the earlier thread up? So you make wild claims, can't back them up and then are upset with us not sharing our data with you? |
Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 16:18
|
Not at all - I have never claimed H? was perfect, just that we were not even close to the demons claimed by some. If you want to dispute the claim that the coalition has raised many more cities than your collection of whatever you call yourselves then post your evidence and have done with it. ------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 16:21
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: blazing arrow
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 16:31
Actually in a spin recovery its important to offload the high angle of attack( in illy terms high headed ness).... an incorrect recovery action is to increase it even more as H? is doing now which only leads to spin tightening and a possible recovery more difficult !!!  Disclaimer. Enlisted above are Real Spin recovery actions...disregard at own peril |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 17:46
|
We have previously posted our 'scoreboard' as public record. We have yet to see any similar measure by you or any anti-coalition alliances.
Also the idea that Rill was trolled as opposed to Rill doing the trolling is quite amusing. Actually this thread is already a repeat of 10 other war threads.
|
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 18:27
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 18:37
|
Well I can understand if you didn't go through all the posts. Although I find it odd that you managed to find my post yet ignored Kumo's.
The original post is on page 8, but its also quoted in 3 or 4 of the other pages in the thread. http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/harmless-wartime-policy-announcement_topic5316_page8.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/harmless-wartime-policy-announcement_topic5316_page8.html If your gonna try and say bad on H? for not sharing info, at least check to see that H? and coalition didn't already share more info than anti-coalition. Despite you 'volunteering' said info. Now is your chance to mend that mistake please next time you post give us this information you 'volunteered' that we already posted for the entire Illy community.
|
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 18:57
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:04
You said you volunteered the information. If you volunteer the information then it doesn't matter if coalition gives out there info or not. If English is your second language there are plenty of places to learn the meaning of common words. I would start here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/volunteer?s=t" rel="nofollow - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/volunteer?s=t And perhaps you don't realize no matter what list is provided it will be a list of "just said so" thats why I support the auto-tracker for it. That being said Coalition has still provided a count where as anti-coalition has not. Nor have you provided a list of towns that you volunteered. I say again now is your chance to mend that mistake please next time you post give us this information you 'volunteered' that we already posted for the entire Illy community. Please not how when we volunteered the information it was given freely because we understand the meaning of the word. Oh your right we should refer to ourselves as the New Coalition, from now just assume whenever you see Coalition it means New Coalition. For brevity sake.
|
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:16
|
Just from taking 5 minutes to look up 6 or so H? members I remember seeing sieges on and checking their town history on Illytools shows me 10 towns razed and at least 4 exodus. That is 5 minutes work that any outsider could do, without checking NC, TCol, RES, TVM, DLords ect.
I told you before I have 9 towns razed and 1 forced exodus vs 1 town lost and 2 forced exo's against us. Now if you can tell me what alliance exactly lost over 20 towns by all means please do. Otherwise just keep telling yourself what you want. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:18
Ahhhh.... not really... are you serious?  Kumo is asking for detailed town and player names razed, so is The Duke... What is your problem?! Both don't want to accept the raw numbers they claim to be completely made up from the opposite side. Both want the same, yet logic seems to be second language here If you all have problems with sending them first, send them lists to me, and I'll flip them over and send them on... I'm so selflessly helpful today...
 |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:22
If you want tho Id be happy to discuss peace with you, I know it must hard losing your first war ------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:42
So, if I am understanding this well ... you are demanding accurate information in exchange of petulant irony .?. |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:55
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:58
|
That's for providing your numbers - how confident are you that they are correct? Reading back in the other thread the discussion goes as follows: 1) Kumo says - we think the numbers are X 2) The Duke says "No way, we've razed Y" 3) Kumo says - "OK - please tell us which they are and we'll add them to the list" 4) Elmindra says "You're wrong, we're razed Z" 5) Kumo says - "Ok - please tell us which ones and we'll add them to our list" At which point everyone starts lambasting Kumo who was being extremely polite and the whole thing degenerates with everyone on the Anti side using a school ground "you first" style argument. So, I'll repeat, tell us which ones you believe you have razed and and we can add them to the list. ------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:05
Allow me to repeat some of your own words KP "If you guys aren't organised enough to keep track that's kinda your problem and if you want to dispute numbers then you're free to present your own proof instead." So here again, Im all for sharing, but if H? wants to continue to claim they have razed X amount then lets see. Otherwise your misleading "count" can stay inflated and We can jus say Anti New Coalition has razed 75 towns. Since this is what your doing ------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:07
|
Actually Duke thats the first time you have ever posted or IGM'd any info whatsoever.
What propaganda? This is your post about how you freely offered info. It only took till the second page for you to give any of the info you volunteered. Course you volunteered a list of cities and finally gave total count but with your lack of understanding of what volunteer means we will let that slide. Odd though how all your numbers came out to be nice factors of 5 almost like u made them up on the spot. I'm sure we can figure out why your numbers seem off by an order of magnitude. I find it odd that Shade would sue for peace so early in war they declared and according to these numbers you spout are winning. I can't discuss peace with you but I'm sure KP would be willing to accept your surrender if your so eager to get out of the war You know before somebody figures out how you managed to kill what 6-7 cities a day or a lost city every 3-4hrs? I must say that is quite a feat. I'm also very impressed how so many players/alliances seem not to notice these 'vast' losses. Actually you probably have to update your list just in the time this thread has been up at that speed. @ Elmindra Your towns razed may be correct different than the one I have but since you got ur info from Illytools I can understand the difference. But I also know EE has had at least 2 razed and apparently more exoduses than i thought. But your numbers are at least believable. |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:13
So u admit you just lied about the data you publicly said you volunteered? So tell us why would we share data with someone who isn't afraid to publicly lie to the entire Illy community about said data?
|
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:16
We will be Watching you surrender. To comment on Vast losses, wasnt Harmless at like 16.5 million pop? Where are you now? Keep claiming to be winning lads, Ill let you win with the way this is going you can "win" to the end  ------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:17
 ------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:19
If your data is as good as your manners, I'd rather do without them, thank you very much. |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:20
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:21
| Your aware there aren't any sections of me quoting you in your quote of me? |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:23
So much for war between gentlemen. The Duke says he has no manners in this war.
|
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:23
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:24
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:25
You can leave them anywhere you like ... I for one carry them everywhere with me if you do not mind. Btw :
I just noticed that ... you people are INCREDIBLE ! ahahahahaah what happened all those arguments about population not being important that rained on these forums concerning the NC case .?.  Edit: Yay ! you can resize the icons as well ... ahahahah edit 2 :
Growling and grumping does not make you a lion  ... plus had you been aware of what lions do all day, you wouldn't have liked that simile at all for yourself ...  |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:25
|
H?'s policy is of no concern to me, but an accurate count might make the war something the rest of the server could follow, possibly even enjoy. perhaps a thread could be opened (or two, if the opponents cannot coexist in a single thread) where players from each side could record towns reduced...? |
Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:27
|
What's even dumber is that you guys are disputing things which are not on our list, which means, by definition, we don't have and then getting all upset because we're not sharing that info which we don't have and which we asked you to provide. P.S. Posting IGM's is against forum rules. ------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:29
|
I'll be honest and say i'm not really interested in who can brag the most in a list highlighted on the forums of people cities lost. At the end of the day the end result of who surrenders to who is all that matters...this alone will determine who razed the most. ------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:32
|
I didnt post an igm, i quoted you there was alot more to the igm.
and Derazin, Show me where I mentioned anything about pop and NC, generalizing "you guys" isnt fair to either side imo unless talking about an issue the entire side is involved in. Its pretty clear the numbers wont be forthcoming so Ill share with you post war KP, when we are all bloody and  : )------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:34
+1 The actual count is immaterial I totally agree, but you'd have to agree the whole topic is quite fun.  |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:41
Well, excuse me, but if we are to believe what we have been hearing here all these months NC are an issue with which your "entire side is involved in" or so they claimed. I have no knowledge and I have seen no announcement on why your alliance particularly is in this war, but since those things are absent from any public knowledge one can only assume that you agree with the agenda, the reasons and the cause of your allies (else you wouldn't have been fighting alongside them, reason says). Now considering that the side you are fighting for was totally busting this place with this argument, well, sorry, but since you jumped in on that side it can be safely assumed that you at least agreed with their main argument for this war. Right .?. If I am wrong/mistaken and you never agreed on that "population does not equate battleworthy-ness" argument then I will gladly edit/reform my post, but it would automatically mean that all this time you believed that the fight against NC was lopsided and effectively a bullying tactic and that you endorsed it despite that. Your choice. Edit : minor corrections. |
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:45
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:46
| Duke seriously stop quoting 100 lines of text and then adding 1 line of text. |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:59
And there are not many assumptions, just a long explanations of ONE FACT (the fact that since you are on THAT side, then you share their agenda and ideas, else you wouldn't be there in the first place) in case someone "misquotes" or "misunderstands" me ... ;) But putting that aside you didn't inform me of your choice ... do you stand by your previous quote about population and have an opposite opinion on this matter than your allies or not .?. If not, I trust that you will at least refrain from using that argument again and have some consistency in your side's arguments ... |
Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 21:01
|
I'll be more than happy to keep track of all razed/exodus cities, if you send me the info. I also will add categories for inactive/permasat accounts taken out of the game i.e.(Beecks) and a list of players who abandon the game because of this war. |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 21:12
Epidemic the problem is not who will compile the information, but what IS the information and whether people consider the sources of said information accurate and/or trustworthy. In that regard I do not think that anyone needs an outside accountant/auditor/scorekeeper and that the common practice of each side keeping its own score till the bitter end will continue to flourish in this case, as well.  |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 21:21
|
One last time, a quick look of H? towns show at least 10 towns lost within the last few weeks, a quick look of NC towns show at least 5 towns lost within the last few weeks. Quite a bit of population loss on a lot of towns which may or may not be exodus. I stated for a fact that EE had 9 town razes, and I even broke them down into 5 TVM and 4 DLord. That is quite a bit more than 7 that Kumo had originally posted. Furthermore, I know that EE has only had 1 town razed. So who lost 24 towns? Soon, Shade, Dark, VCrow? I haven't seen it. If you would like to do the same and list numbers by alliance please feel free. I can only vouch for what I have personally been involved in, but it is more information than you have given but yet claimed to have given.
-------------
|
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 21:29
|
Oh and it appears that H? just lost 2 more towns since this thread started, better add them as well.
-------------
|
Posted By: Arakamis
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 21:30
| Raze them all and let Devs sort them out..:) |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 21:58
Oh, another "client" with the population loss ... so, Elmindra, now you are telling us the population counts are a good way to count someone's battle capabilities .?. One must wonder why you people argued so much against that standard in the case of NC being stacked upon by a much larger conglomeration of opponents in population. Double standards are always amusing, but do try to keep a relative time distance before applying them in similar situations because the whole matter becomes ludicrous. This thread reminds me of a similar discussion in the Consone war where they were trying to convince us that we were not doing any damage because in the weekly counts Consone as a group was in fact GROWING (back then they were counting city numbers iirc), ergo it must have been doing something right and we were barely scratching them. I might find that post tomorrow, if this thread keeps in the current direction. |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 22:04
|
Deranzin, did I even once say that population counts as a gauge of battle strength? You quoted me but forgot to read, but I will say it again. Quite a bit of population loss on a lot of towns which may or may not be exodus. That is a pretty simple sentence, but I will elaborate. When I see a person with 10 towns and 7 are legendary and 3 are at exodus population levels then I would assume it's a possible exodus, which may or may not be a direct result of the war. Pretty sure that is simple, but I am more than happy to repeat myself.
-------------
|
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 23:10
Oh, I did read ... if you mention it as a fact and you do not believe that it has any meaning, as you seem to do in your elaboration, then you are just tossing meaningless (even for you) numbers around, just to create an impression. "That is a pretty simple sentence" too Also saying that "I would assume it's a possible exodus, which may or may not be a direct result of the war" is indeed nice of you, but look what The_Duke said a couple of posts ago :
I do not know what "old saying" he is referring at, btw, but I am just quoting it because you people should eventually decide on ONE STANDARD and apply to ALL CASES, else we are going to end up with monster threads like in the Consone War, just in trying to understand what your position on a matter is. So, if The_Duke thinks that he can evade and do away with a post that contained only one fact (and one very logical assumption directly derived by it) by saying that thing, I can only guess how credible he would think your post with three assumptions in a row which you yourself admit that you cannot validate. Consistency people ... consistency ! |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 23:27
Deranzin, half of those monster threads are word picking just as you do now, so please just stop it... it gets annoying reading the same idea tossed around and around in different threads stretched over two wars. 
Elmindras post was one of the very few sensible ones for a long time, and finally included some sort of numbers, which Kumo and many other seem to want to have... ..thanks for that
 |
Posted By: eragon31
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 23:43
| i just wanna point out to all those concerned that i caught your movie references. and it was actually the bright point in reading through all of this. especially the one from troy, cause that's a pretty good movie. but i prefer " You won't have eyes tonight; you won't have ears or a tongue. You will wander the underworld blind, deaf, and dumb, and all the dead will know: This is Hector. The fool who thought he killed Achilles" |
Posted By: 3lok
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2013 at 08:24
|
Wow... its been a long read going through all the different posts about this war... I seldom post on the forums here but seeing the ongoing war of words and the childish way it is going on... I suggest an easy way to track the count of razed cities. I understand that it is not possible for both the sides to believe the numbers given by the other, so why not validate each other's claims! Why keep passing the buck the devs when it can be easily done by us! Below is a spreadsheet that anyone can edit and modify. Just enter the details directly there and the other side can verify/validate/comment on. http://goo.gl/EXPnZz" rel="nofollow - http://goo.gl/EXPnZz" rel="nofollow - http://goo.gl/EXPnZz These details can easily be checked on using illytools! For the towns exodused, there is a separate sheet too! Hope this helps! Regards, gtkol3
|
Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2013 at 18:16
There you have it. anyone wishing to debate stats should use this spreadsheet. It is an excellent idea and a great way to post data without all of the forum nonsense surrounding it. Thank you for contributing to the forums, and contributing it such a positive way. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Mayflower
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2013 at 01:43
Deranzin, regarding NC, it is true that one of the arguments made was that NC's population does not reflect their battle capabilities. However, over here it seems that we are using population as an indicator of "damage dealt", and not as an indicator of battle capabilities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one in this thread seems to have said that the New Coalition has lost its fighting power because it has lost population. We are simply trying to use population as a means to judge how much "health" each side has remaining, and how much "damage" each side has dealt. So as you can see, there is no double standard here. Nobody is judging your offensive capabilities based on your population, people are just trying to keep track of the war. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/105635" rel="nofollow"> 
|
Posted By: Kompanion
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2013 at 17:35
Deranzin, I am not sure how versed you are in siege mechanics, population or exodus. I will attempt to shed some light for you. Population is based off of building levels. As buildings increase in level so does the population. Sieges work by deleveling the buildings within a town. The population needs to be lowered in order for captures or razes to occur. The strength of the siege itself is not related to the population, but rather by the number of troops that are supporting it. To break a siege requires military units to attack it, this requires troops and not population. With exodus the highest building level will be 12 upon completion of exodus. (with the exception of walls) If the town had several buildings over level 12 this will result in a decrease in population. So when towns are sieged they result in a population loss. When towns exodus to avoid incoming sieges this also results in a loss of population. One of the greatest military players in the game is He-man. His current population is around 149k and he is #1 in defense by over 1 million points. He might be willing to assist you with some good pointers through IGM. I hope this is helpful for you. |
Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2013 at 00:28
|
Even population does not give a reliable reflection of the effects of the war, we know for a fact at least 15% of TCols pop has gone inactive since the start of the war (and I am sure there are many more we are not yet aware/certain of), yet they keep those accounts in their alliance to keep the image that they are doing OK. |
Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2013 at 07:57
|
war over there and here.. good to hear that you guys are having fun. keep it up! :D /me sits and watch the show... |