Is war the sandbox endgame?
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URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5317
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Topic: Is war the sandbox endgame?
Posted By: Brandmeister
Subject: Is war the sandbox endgame?
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2013 at 19:54
Moved from a wartime thread where it didn't belong:
So here's the thing. Illyriad is fundamentally a PvP sandbox. It's an empire game that is part city builder, part trade, and half military. It's got some bolt-on modules for hunting, gathering and crafting as well, but those are minor. The main gist is building troops--all your main city buildings either produce units, reduce the cost of units, or produce items to build units. You can use sovereignty to boost the speed of producing units, or boost the speed of producing items required for building units. There is some nuance in the variety of military and diplomatic units and their interplay with defenses and terrain, but basically this game is about units. Tournaments provide a temporary release for the pressure that builds in many alliances. End game players have tons of units, and basically nothing challenging to do with those units. It isn't a PvE system. Blasting NPCs is super simple and unrewarding after the first few tries. So players dump their units into tournaments, but let's be honest, the single-square King of the Mountain format is pretty boring. The only real dimension of skill is in tuning your cities for extra unit production--apart from that tournaments are just a bulk battle without any subtlety or strategy. The warfare aspect of Illyriad is, however, fairly developed. It is simple to learn but provides lots of room for strategy. I believe that all the units laying around are basically dry tinder. The tournaments are an attempt at a controlled burn, but they don't always work. Sooner or later, the huge stockpiles of items and units will intersect with a clash of personalities (including ego, revenge, boredom, gaming approach, or whatever), sparks are thrown onto the dry tinder, and wars will erupt. I think it's the natural cycle in a sandbox game where ultimately there is really nothing else meaningful to do but construct units for battle. Maybe factions will change that by providing robust PvE for individuals and alliances. Maybe not. Some people will probably still crave the challenge and excitement of PvP. Broken Lands will have the Care Bear Forest for non-PvP players, but ultimately, I don't think you can turn a game of empires into a 100% PvE system. If nothing else, that would require constant releases of fresh story content, which implies a significant ongoing development budget. Slow as Illyriad might be, I find it curious that many influential players hold a fervent belief that everyone else on the server is going to adopt PvE and tournament PvP as the only methods of entertainment in an otherwise fairly militarized game. Added: I should be clear, I'm not taking a pro-war or anti-war stance. I'm just saying that I think it's inevitable given the sandbox setup. I don't believe there's a permanent equilibrium point where everyone just lives in peace. The variety of quests is highly limited, and there is no player authoring in the sandbox, so once tournaments fail to satisfy the interest of endgame players, conflict (in its various forms) is pretty much all they've got left for entertainment. |
Epidemic wrote:Replies:
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2013 at 20:46
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Good analysis. As I see it, since it's perpetual, the only possible storyline is: start, grow, get bored, quit. What you do between grow and get bored is the thing. What else is there but war? Seriously, someone tell me. What else is there? ------------- |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2013 at 20:55
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City building. Tournaments. If you are interested in one of the sidelines: crafting, trade, hunting, gathering. But having explored all four of those, they get stale after a while. I chased the crafting mystery for quite some time, but that got boring, too. There are many interesting things promised by the faction descriptions and map locations, but AI is tough to write and quests take a considerable time investment to author correctly. The Illyriad endgame is unfortunately not very engaging to many people (hence a proliferation of large permasat accounts). |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2013 at 21:39
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The only thing that kept this game going for such a long time is imho the outstanding newbie friendly community and the generally pleasant GC for the people that enjoy that sort of stuff. That, combined with the alliance system, were the engines that powered the game ... but, as a wise quote says "with boredom, even the gods fight in vain" and the DEVs never did participate much in that fight. No real fantasy in their tournaments, meaningless quest system, too late to implement what they set to create, nothing to do when you reached at the top of your city building, nothing to do between tournaments and so forth ... if not for the community creating fun in GC and in the alliances, most of us would have packed up and gone loooooong ago ... There could have been many things to do and/or implement, but I do not see the point of discussing those anymore ...  The way I see it the same people will inhabit BL and it will be another Elgea + a non-PVP area ... which means that the game is sadly probably not going to make it, war or no war ...  |
Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 04:51
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I have to agree that the warfare aspect of this game is far more detailed than most non-stop war games out there. If the builds and researches were at seconds and minutes instead of hours and days I wouldn't care about wars. The extremely long build/research times is the #1 reason why this is no wargame. This is a sandbox social game with a complex warfare system. I'm hoping that the factions and story arcs will keep everyone entertained for good. |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 05:17
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I call it world diplomacy game. Warfare is a part of it. Land grab/res grab is a part of it. Although pretty small. Trade is a part of it. You could call nation building a part of it as well. I think what would be really interesting to see is what would happen if alliances could claim huge swaths of territory and actually gain something from it.
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Posted By: jcx
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 10:07
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This is not the END.. OPTIONS are floating all over the place.. and up for grabs.. Note: PRIDE will not make you fat, you can eat it anytime. :D |
Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 13:44
| it would be a lot more fun if trade would be made more competitive other than getting gold..also we need pathfinding or zones of control..the game needs purpose otherwise its doom to be a chat game...the devs totally control whats becomes of this..it never has been a sandbox |
Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 15:03
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This war is in no way an "endgame" in my opinion and the motivations for war are varied just like our player base. If anyone who feels this is the end of the game is actually involved in the war (and why would you feel that way if you are not), then why are you involved in it? No-one is forcing anyone to fight, other than perhaps some extremist alliance leaders. If you are part of an alliance involved in the war and you dont want to be involved then let your leaders know, if they order you to fight, then leave their alliance, it really is that simple. There are many neutral alliances in the game and you can always form your own alliance as a number of players have done since it began. Many people have posted on the forums with the rather ignorant opinion that the cause for wars in Elgea is simple boredom or frustration at this games slow progression, this I believe is a major falsity. People are involved in the war for various reasons, I for one am happy to be involved as it may result in the ability to play this game as a sand-box game (as it is intended), rather than having to play it according to the rules and morality of a few dominant players who have laid down their law with an iron fist for so long. |
Posted By: Binky the Berserker
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 17:47
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If you all keep talking about the war it will seem there's nothing else to do in Elgea. If you just ignore the war you'll see there are lots of fun things to do in the game. And if you don't think these things are fun, and you also don't like the war, just play somewhere else. Meanwhile I just stay around and enjoy the game. Maybe if you all leave I can go to 1st rank. And if you think the devs should continuously bring out new stuffs to keep you a happy player... think again. There are zillion options in this game allready, if you don't like most of them, you probably won't like much else the devs come up with. Quit whining, start playing. |
Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 18:06
| ^ +1 |
Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 19:19
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Has anyone figured out the Dwarven Armor thing yet? ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 19:56
You confuse the concept of "I have completed this this and this objective and I'd like some more diversity on them" with the "I do not like this and this and this, I never bothered doing them and so I want something else from the game" ... Totally different things ... |
Posted By: Alcie
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 20:50
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I like to try most parts of this game. War happens to be one of the few parts I am not interested in although I do enjoy tournaments and hunting and expect these to get more interesting once faction diplomacy starts and animals become more agressive. I understand that people ONLY hunting npcs might get bored... but if you do some of a lot of different things than you won't get bored of any one thing so quickly. As I saw it when I started playing 2 years ago, there are 8 types of player ranks and 3 or 4 alliance ranks. Of these 11 of 12 'goals', 2 are about fighting and you don't have to do actual war to get them. There are also a lot of other things that don't have offical ranks but you can work on (gold, mysteries, rare object collection, etc.) And the game is flexible enough you can do all sorts of fun activities with alliances. As for people quitting out of boredom.. war does not seem to be a solution to this... Although I have never played any, people often talk about other similiar games with too much fighting and how they quit those games out of boredom and joined this one. And I have certainly seen quite a few people quit this game because of war. One solution for boredom is for the devs to keep putting out new things. The devs have always told us about future plans and it is clear this game can get better and better over time if these plans come to fruition. There is not necessarily enough to do in the game to keep one particular person entertained for years and years. at this point. But if things keep being added, there will be. It just depends on the person whether they get bored faster or slower than the devs work. As this is a very slow-paced game, it is understandable that some people get bored and quit eventually but that is not bad if they had a few months or a year or two of enjoyment. A particular hobby does not have to last a lifetime, it is just supposed to be fun while you do it. As for people who like war, I think there is room for it. I agree with what some other people said that diplomacy is a major part of this game. As in the real world, people always train their troops, keep war supplies.. and in the meantime use diplomacy to avoid wars or to keep wars short or small. Since this is a game and real people are not killed, two alliances can even war for fun which takes a different type of diplomacy to make sure it stays fun for both sides. Obviously there has to be some policing of bad behavior in this game and those turn to wars sometimes. But, apart from that, Smaller wars where both sides are enjoying themselves seem like a good goal. I think if small wars turn into huge world wars that involve a lot of players who don't want to be involved, then things have broken down-- people are not being creative enough. If you want total war, there are other games where that is the point. I am not actually talking about the current war which I know nothing about really. I am not involved and the fact that I am able to not be involved tells me that this game hasn't broken down into a war game. It is still a flexible sandbox where war is one aspect amongst many. If war really turns out to be the sandbox endgame for this game as a whole, I think the game will fail. people will become bored, the game will lose many of its best features. I just hope that doesn't happen. I have some faith, there are a lot of really nice and reasonably mature people in this game and players make the game as much as the devs do. Although the devs need to keep putting out fun things too. |
Posted By: Lwyllyn
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 21:40
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I see two main themes in this thread that I would like to address: Most of us noncombatants do not care if you warriors raze each other's towns. We don't care that massive armies are moving across Elgea. As (one of) the most outspoken noncombatants, the focus has never been to stop you from fighting, it has been to stop you from fighting in GC! Some players will quit because of this war; it's inevitable. New players will come in, and that will help the balance. The new players read the guides in the forums. Those guides tell them that illy is different; just ask in GC for resources, and people will send them to you! But how many newbies have introduced themselves to us, only to be ignored because of(for example) a high-speed ranting(spamming?) match between Kumo and Hath? That last question is NOT hypothetical; I personally witnessed newb intros zip by unanswered because even a speed-reader couldn't keep up! The other thing is: back off the DEVS' case, man! I have yet to see a browser game that could hold a candle to this one. Illyriad is a very deep, very detailed game with many facets. If software bugs piss you off so much, why are you using Windows? If it's not advanced enough for you, get a playstation! If all you want to do is whine about how boring it is, and whine about the 'lack' of features in Illy, then why the hell do you continue to log in? Why are you reading this right now? Go hit the 'abandon' button and let the rest of us have your towns, and let GC have some peace! Go! Go now, dammit! If you are offended, then this was probably directed at you.
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Posted By: Alcie
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2013 at 22:50
I agree that in all the forumns lately people have been DEV-complaining too much. That was not my intention in my post above, I was just trying to say that as long as the new features do keep coming (slowly but surely) , it will be a game that can contnue to improve and continue to be very fun even for long-term players. It is a strange aspect of games like this... you would never demand that Monopoly have new features constantly added... on the other hand if you play Monoopoly every day for 2 years you might go insane xD I think this game is great and there have been many improvements since I started playing and I expect there to be many more great improvements over the next couple years (maybe not quickly, but nothing in this game is quick). Advertising broken lands for 2013 back in January and still not having it in November was perhaps a bad marketing decision which is, I think, leading to some of the current waitng-frustration which is, I am guessing, one of the (possibly many) causes for the war as well as an increase in general complaining. Ironically people are less impatient about the things that have been advertised for years and are still not out xD Somehow giving us a vague timeline for broken lands has made it harder to wait for many people. But, weird marketing psychology issues aside, the devs are working hard and have made this a fun and complex game that really does have room for many non-war related activities. Sometimes we just have to take a step back. If you like this game as is, that's great. If you have suggestions, there is a suggestion forumn. If you truly don't like the game, don't play. If you liked the game for awhile but got bored, stop playing if you wish but don't blame the game--unless you were for some reason playing a game you hate for long periods of time, you got enjoyment out of illy for some weeks or months or years. Sorry if that was off topic for this thread, but the 'sandbox endgame' question really leads to 'why should there be an endgame?' If it goes more war-like for awhile, it can become less later. And as good of a game as I think it is, I doubt it will exist 40 years from now nor will most players play any game for more than a few years. The real question is what you can do to enjoy it now and also to play in such a way as to help make it the type of game you and everyone else can continue to enjoy into the near future. I really do think the types of maturity, helping hands, and player-imposed-guidelines-for-fairness that are in illy are a big part of what makes illyriad unique and a nice place to play. It is a benefit of the flexible 'sandbox-like' way illy is made that players have this power. I hope people continue to see this and use it to their own and the game's advantage, not allowing temporary diagreements to cause trouble to the game as a whole. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2013 at 01:48
Deranzin, thank you for reading carefully, and understanding the difference there. I very much think that the game would benefit greatly from some depth on the PvE campaign. Although individual items like the statue quest are entertaining, they are also very short, and there are very few of them. The faction descriptions and special location messages (the Rift, Duraz Karag, the Misted Lands, etc.) promise us interesting things to do within the PvE game. The same is true of the many presently useless animal parts, herbs, and minerals. The descriptions indicate new and interesting things to do with those components. Also, I think I have caused confusion by using the term "endgame". I do not mean some kind of permanent end to the game of Illyriad. I am questioning if the way the game is structured is pointing a large demographic of players towards inevitable large showdowns. It is not due solely to boredom, but rather due to a large stockpile of items and units being the end state for many very large Illyriad accounts. There's really nothing else to build. Those stockpiles and armies are like pressure built up in a system (or dry tinder awaiting a spark), and I believe they can be set off by relatively trivial events simply because they exist. |
Posted By: Mr Damage
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2013 at 04:43
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Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2013 at 05:20
War is the sandbox endgame. In any sandbox war game, even in the much despised Evony, it is up to the most established players to limit the effects of that war in order to prolong the game. The established playerbase here did that well for quite sometime but now it seems to have gotten out of control. Limited war and limited conflict is how to keep a sandbox game going. Once abandoned you are left with aftereffects of an endgame war.. a dead server. - M. ------------- 
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 21:45
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the much-vaunted "many paths" in illyriad all end in the maintenance and procurement of armies. why trade? to accumulate gold to support and equip larger armies. why craft? to create better equipment for armies. why quest? to get...erm...a couple of discoveries and increase your overall ranking...but i digress. in the early and mid-game, there are many paths, but in the endgame they all converge to military. i couldn't say how much disillusionment this progression causes in players who don't especially want to engage in pvp, but i suspect it's significant. to their credit, the devs have promised a compelling questline and better faction ai in concert with the Broken Lands release. i look forward to seeing what they've done, because factions could be much more than pve opponents to fight. they could be sources of mercenaries, gateways to new lucrative off-map markets, opportunities for diplomatic ties, and motivations for questing that affects something more than small amounts of inventory. |
Posted By: BellusRex
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2013 at 03:11
I think this is a clever idea. In a sense, there is an aspect of that already, like the benefits of strong alliance hubs in a region, or if you think about the crafting side- Holding areas with extremely hard to find resources such as silversteel is a much more doable proposition if your alliance is strong there. I can think of a lot of things that could be gained or even lost to control territories in-game. The one consideration with it would be that it would seem to me to encourage much more PvP. I'm not going to comment on whether Illy needs more or less, since we've all seen how widely opinions vary. But it is an interesting idea... ------------- "War is the father of all things..." |
Posted By: fronfor
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2013 at 20:41
I hear talk of implementing a tracking/intercepting system, where caravans and armies can be stopped as they are moving. I don't know whether this is one of those announcements that never got followed up, but that might make things more interesting. Will players be allowed to assign routes to their moving units, to go around and avoid a certain area instead of taking the straightest path? If so, could an alliance or player claim a certain land, and force anyone moving through it to pay tribute or else risk having their caravan raided? Sorry, probably off-topic. I don't know what the endgame is like, but I agree with Brandmeister is saying about armies sitting around like dry firewood, and I also agree with those who are saying it doesn't have to be about war. The way I see it, in a sandbox game, if there are no in-game goals that interest you, make your own. Maybe try to set up a tyrannical alliance, using force to "persuade" lesser players in your area to join and suffer a heavy tax, and see how long you can keep it up. Maybe have a little Menzoberranzan-style competition within your alliance, to try and drag each other down the rankings without openly leaving evidence that it was your doing. Illyriad leaves lots of options open. And why not war? I very much agree with what Deathdealer is saying here, "Nation-building". Just like Sid Meier's Civilization, I think if we play a little more ambitiously excitement and conflict will come up, whether in open war or economic war or cold war, or all three. Those who have too much firewood, do something with it, do something crazy and don't worry if you get burned. It is a game, after all. |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2013 at 22:02
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Those are some interesting ideas and you should try them out.You could form alliance and try to enforce 50 sq rule and all who are within those 50sq of town should pay taxes, or something similar to that.There are no rules that prevent players from trying those things. |
Posted By: ropadope
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2013 at 01:42
| It's like I thought? we are going to have to defend our roads when pathfinding comes out (if) |
Posted By: st aug
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2013 at 03:13
| This game is what you make it. Your playing style will determine how you see the game and how others play it. To each his or her own. At least we can drive our on ship if you choose. Are you can be a sheep and follow the crowd. The choice is yours. See the game anyway you wish just don't beat over the head the person next to you if they don't see it the way you do. War game yes . Social game yes . Building game yes . Get the point ? |
Posted By: BellusRex
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2013 at 03:19
Trying to tax players within a stated area is an idea that would be fun to see played out...or allowing non aligned players to settle an alliance controlled area in exchange for fees...lots of things we haven't tried...the only problem is that a lot of clever ideas would lead to conflict...if we could come up with some basic concepts of combat in certain situations that eliminate fear of city loss, it could open a lot of avenues of play. We should have some lesser way to "war" where we can set a condition for victory that does not cost cities... ------------- "War is the father of all things..." |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2013 at 03:55
| If war didn't cost cities, there are some Illyrians who would be at war non-stop. What would deter them if there were no consequence to failure? |
Posted By: BellusRex
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2013 at 05:06
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So if factions do go live, and they can take hostile action against players, do you think they will siege? Not the point you were making, but I'm curious as to the limits of faction combat actions...
------------- "War is the father of all things..." |
Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2013 at 06:03
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2013 at 06:40
| Angrim, it was my understanding that you cannot attack PvP into or out of the care bear forest against cities. The cities you place there will be safe, but cannot be used in battle. Otherwise it would be troll heaven. People would launch raids and diplos into the PvP zone non-stop. I would expect that you could not use care bear cities to reinforce siege camps and otherwise take indirect hostile action, either. |
Posted By: Daufer
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2013 at 07:21
War doesn't have to cost cities. People must choose to send them. Frankly, if those Illyrians who want war non-stop could have it without their accounts being on the line, there would probably be fewer of these global scale wars and a lot less grief in the forums.
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