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Military for New Players

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Strategies, Guides & Help
Forum Name: Strategies, Tips & Tricks
Forum Description: Player created guides and advice.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5161
Printed Date: 01 Oct 2020 at 06:38
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Topic: Military for New Players
Posted By: The Electrocutioner
Subject: Military for New Players
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 04:31
Greetings everyone,

I often see new players asking for advice in global chat about building armies. The near-universal response is to tell them not to do that, it will stunt their growth, it is somehow bad for them.

THIS IS NOT TRUE, and it is extremely frustrating to see vets discourage new players who show an interest in the military side of the game.

Or, to be more accurate, it is not true with just a little bit of help from larger players. Much like we love to give basic res to new players to start them on their way, giving them a few thousand gold and some beer and spears can start them on the way to building their first spearunit army on their first day in the game, if they choose to do so. And it will not hurt them or stunt their growth at all! 

I think we all agree that the most important things for a new player are storehouse capacity and becoming self-sufficient with basic resource production. This is true no matter what path they are interested in. However, the player does not have to sacrifice these things in order to start building an army on day one if they want. The barracks only need to be at level 1 to build spear units, level 3 for ranged, level 5 for infantry, and level 11 for cavalry. That requires a rather meager amount of build time. It will not hurt their overall growth to level up their barracks here and there. They can still spend the majority of build time on resource plots and storehouse. And with a small gift of gold from a larger player, they can still set their taxes at zero, so res production is not penalized at all just because they are supporting an army.

Does a new player need to have an army? Of course not. No one is likely to pick on them when their rainbow wears off, and even if that happens, the community would come to their defense. It is certainly correct to tell a new player that they don't need to worry about building an army anytime soon, if they don't want to.

But what if they WANT to? Why discourage them? Just like you would send them a load of basics, why not send them 10k gold and 500 spears and beer and encourage them to start a spear army right away? If a new player is specifically interested in military (as opposed to just worried about being attacked), we should encourage this just as much as we encourage them to build cotters or sell cows or whatever.

When I started playing Illy, I was fascinated by the troop units and wanted to know how to use them and how combat worked. But I heard, over and over, don't build troops, it's bad, wait until you are bigger. So I waited. And I got bored. And I wondered why the game was structured so that I had to achieve a certain size before I could make use of troops.

But now I realize, the game is NOT structured that way. It's just that a lot of players are under the illusion that it is. There is no harm in having armies right away if you want them. Small players can begin learning military mechanics right away with NPC's, or they can engage in PvP with other small, like-minded players. The only consequences are losing troops - you can't damage cities when you're that small and don't have siege capability. So it's the perfect time to start practicing and learning! Why wait?

The great thing about Illy is that there are many paths you can choose, and military is one of them. I am posting this to suggest that we encourage this path enthusiastically with new players who show a specific interest in it, rather than telling them they ought to wait.

Cheers,
ELECTROK




Replies:
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 04:56
My main problem with this suggestion is that you can't do much interesting with a spear army.  I mean, sure it will kill more than no army at all, but not by much.  Although it is difficult, I think new players will probably have a bit more fun if they wait until they're able to build t1 infantry, which are more effective in attack for the same amount of gold.  t1 infantry also only require a level 5 barracks.

As for whether "all" new players should do this, probably not.  It's right for some and not for others.  Having and using an army can create additional complications, such as what happens when a really big player squashes your army -- or what happens when you squash the army of your neighbor who is in a powerful alliance.

Some new players will be able to handle this challenge just fine.  Others might be better off sitting back and taking the temperature of the game and their neighborhood a bit more.

"Live by the sword and die by the sword" is a good aphorism to remember here.  If one uses one army to get oneself into a mess, one is likely to be met with someone else using armies as well.  Some people will have great fun with that, and other people won't.

In terms of armies, I would suggest starting small, practicing good communication with neighbors and ... when in doubt, scout!


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 07:10
A fine article. I had my first army of dwarven infantry ready by the end of my first week. I also begged some hides from SimplyDivine and built a skinner, even though everyone told me not to. There were these cool animal parts next to my city that my cotters couldn't pick up. I got 1 Wolf Fur on my first outing. Pretty soon I was hacking up wild dogs, building more skinners, and having a good time. Whenever I asked military questions in GC, lots of people told me that I was too small to use crafted equipment, or level commanders, or have an army, or worry about elite divisions. But other players were cool, and sent me IGMs with explanations, pointed me to guides, and sent me 'forbidden' things like swords, chainmail, saddles and even cooler stuff like boar spears and war axes. Hunting really helped me to stay in Illy, because let's face it, if all you're doing in your first several weeks is leveling resource plots and begging for resources in GC, this game is unforgivably boring.

I have often thought about writing an article like this, except about trade (including hunting). People get so hung up on grinding and begging as The One True Approach, and there are so many other neat things to do in Illyriad. I clench my teeth when people start telling newbs about 7 food plots, exodus and terraforming. As awesome as the Illyriad community is, I think that sometimes it crowds out the cartographers, the traders, the hunters, and yes, even the much-maligned wargamers.

Electrok is right, if they aren't siege-capable, the worst damage a newb can do is kill the other guy's troops and take a pittance of basic resources. Then you sit them down and have a talk about playing nice with their neighbors (although ideally you should have that discussion prior to sending them armaments). Theoretically they could kill harvesters, but nobody with any sense sends out unprotected skinners, and you can easily replace miners, cotters, herbalists and caravans.

It's all just digital bits on a server. There isn't any harm to sending some gold and 100 of each troop resource to a new player. It's a valid way to enjoy Illyriad, just like all the other ways.


Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 07:24
I love the idea of new players starting their military early.  I did much to the displeasure to a certain nameless person in the training alliance I was in.  

Its a good time to learn all about NPC hunting.  Plus only having 1 city the game doesn't have a lot to do.  A little more now thx to crafting, but you can't do much gathering without an army to mark your spot which brings us back to military.  

I'm wholly against small players using military against other players though (exception being your in an alliance that goes to war).  Honestly all they would end up doing is getting themselves into trouble.  I much prefer our 'newb' friendly environment that protects them till they get more experience with the game.  If someone uses their first 100 units to attack the next smallest player to them you can bet the friendly part of the game will go away.


Posted By: tansiraine
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 17:08
I have no issue for new player to have an army... I believe they need to build all the parts to get the army not have it handed to them.  I was killing NPC early with spear men.. just to learn.. but No one handed me the items to do it.  I think the city needs to be big enough to support the army.. and have the proper buildings to make the t2 resources to produce the troops.. 

I tend to lean to build your storehouse.. keep you resources at pop level ( 100 pop 100 resource per hr) And in the other time build your T2 buildings make 25 at a time.. learn not just the military part of killing the target but the requirements to make the troops.. when you are that small and see how long it takes and how much of the little resources you have I believe it gives you a little more respect for the time and effort it takes to make a decent size army and less likely to throw it away.

granted this is only my 2 cents worth


Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 17:52
with the new build times for troops its very important for newbies to learn military quickly. there are several military training alliances around to help. with alliances helping  newbies to take  castles of quitters, build time is becoming less an issue. the more experience military player are seeing the impact that smaller accounts can do in warfare as we are learning that not all buildings are needed to make war cities and amazing amounts of troops. its important to learn this aspect of the game and the sooner the better.


Posted By: tansiraine
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 18:07
With that being said Twi the newbies need to know the expense of an army.. i is all great for stuff to be handed to them but if they do not understand the expense to make and support and army they will be begging for gold from every one.. so all parts of the military building is needed including how to support the troops with out begging for help


Posted By: st aug
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 19:38
Great post. I see nothing with a player building an army and learning how to use them from the get go. Not everyone is going to play this game for years and wait to play. For some people   the best way to learn anything is just do it. If you think there making a mistake let them make it and learn remember it's there game to play not yours. I know there's a lot of people that just love to help people and that is fine but they have to understand some people don't need are want there help and wish to build an army for jump street and go for broke. That should be ok so let them play and learn even if it is the hard way. And if they do something there not suppose to do don't worrie some body will check them on it.


Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2013 at 12:37
Good opening post but just remember be smart with your diplomacy.
 
Building armies can be great fun. It's the commander that  counts in the first instance; your units second and how you use them third.
 
Once you choose the pathway of the warrior in Illy other bigger bored players will see you as such and will be looking for any excuse to attack you.  So if you want the buzz that goes with building your army then that is all good... but be prepared for the down when half a dozen players suddenly rush to destroy it. 


Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2013 at 13:42
Originally posted by Ossian Ossian wrote:

Good opening post but just remember be smart with your diplomacy.
 
Building armies can be great fun. It's the commander that  counts in the first instance; your units second and how you use them third.
 
Once you choose the pathway of the warrior in Illy other bigger bored players will see you as such and will be looking for any excuse to attack you.  So if you want the buzz that goes with building your army then that is all good... but be prepared for the down when half a dozen players suddenly rush to destroy it. 

Ok thats just flat out wrong in Illy.  There are a few jerks but they would attack no matter what, and when they do there is a pretty strong newb friendly environment to help them out.  

There isn't any 'half a dozen players suddenly' rushing to destroy any new players.  If anybody did try that there would be a dozen players suddenly rushing to destroy the annoying half dozen.  

Also sense most people just look at city size, they would have no idea if you chose the 'warrior', the trade path, the craft path ect.  


Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2013 at 22:25
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

Originally posted by Ossian Ossian wrote:

Good opening post but just remember be smart with your diplomacy.
 
Building armies can be great fun. It's the commander that  counts in the first instance; your units second and how you use them third.
 
Once you choose the pathway of the warrior in Illy other bigger bored players will see you as such and will be looking for any excuse to attack you.  So if you want the buzz that goes with building your army then that is all good... but be prepared for the down when half a dozen players suddenly rush to destroy it. 

Ok thats just flat out wrong in Illy.  There are a few jerks but they would attack no matter what, and when they do there is a pretty strong newb friendly environment to help them out.  

There isn't any 'half a dozen players suddenly' rushing to destroy any new players.  If anybody did try that there would be a dozen players suddenly rushing to destroy the annoying half dozen.  



I have seen more occurrences over the space of this past year where new players were deemed "Trolls" by frequent GC'ers and then subsequently sieged for being "trollish" instead of being blocked. I suppose these actions are a bit like giving a mentally ill person electric shocks in hopes that one day he will be "cleansed".

with that said, I agree that new players should not be discouraged from following an aggressive military path.


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Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2013 at 22:44
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

Originally posted by Ossian Ossian wrote:


Once you choose the pathway of the warrior in Illy other bigger bored players will see you as such and will be looking for any excuse to attack you.  So if you want the buzz that goes with building your army then that is all good... but be prepared for the down when half a dozen players suddenly rush to destroy it. 

  If anybody did try that there would be a dozen players suddenly rushing to destroy the annoying half dozen.  


I think those are the players he was talking about...


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 04:02
This is one way to play. There are many.

Illy is a friendly game and "even if" you want to be a combat oriented player, as long as you aren't a moron about it you'll remain relatively free of "random" destruction, regardless of size.

When I began I was leary of the military side of the game because I just didn't know what to expect. I got lucky and was invited into an alliance with goals that were spot on with mine. My leader (the much maligned Eternal Fire-less eternal now but I believe, at that time a good example of a militaristic leader) encouraged defence and it paid off. Things in that alliance eventually self destructed but without that introduction to Illy I'd have given up from boredom. One can "do what thou wilt" here. Take other's views into account or not. You can even be sieged to near newb status and just regrow. Illy is so very flexable.

If a new player I have some sort of connection to (a member of ~NS~, a friend of a friend or whatever) asks for weapons I will send them. I won't do that randomly, in GC but that's just me. I see absolutely no problem with it. What's the worst that can happen? Some Crowfederalist, or H? tyrant smacks them around? So what? Some unalligned player attacks them? So what? Even if they get sieged to zero, so what? It's a friggen game. Start over, give up or cry in GC and have a war started over your dumb ass. So what? Play as you want to play. The consequences of your actions, as uninteresting in one extreme or downright brutal in another are just digits. Log out and have dinner.

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 14:25
The Electrocutioner's opening post was well presented. My appearance in this thread has once again brought forth anger and ire. I should have known better. Disregard my post and carry on.


Posted By: st aug
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2013 at 04:42
Ossian let them get mad all they want. The true test to any one's character is to listen to someone that you do not agree with and here them out and then you give your side of the story .   It's called being open minded. very few have this skill[ being open minded] most attack when they disagree with you and don't listen to what you have to say . May you speak freely always


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2013 at 18:03
Originally posted by Ossian Ossian wrote:

The Electrocutioner's opening post was well presented. My appearance in this thread has once again brought forth anger and ire. I should have known better. Disregard my post and carry on.


Hmm, anger and ire? You sure have a healthy ego. I saw no anger in others posts. For myself, I would say no to anger as well but I'll agree to one of the looser definitions of ire, that being passion. I have some passion about this subject as I believe it is a downright shame that so many possibly good players just disappear because Illy "looks" quite boring on the face of it.

As a newb, having little experience with the online gaming community, other than WoW, I figured I'd be wiped out soon enough but thought "what the heck, got nothing to loose...it's free." There are others however, who are eager for action. When that action is not only not forthcoming but generally talked down in GC ("it's too soon"..."you don't need an army"..."we will protect you") those sorts of players quit just because they have more fun elsewhere. I believe this gives Illy the appearance of a city builder to the war type players. That's all fine and dandy but when players profess to support all types of play styles and some of those "all types" are treated as unwelcome, well hypocrisy ensues.

There really is room for all types here. That is the foundation of Illy. If you want to fight, you can. If you want to build in peace, you can. Trade, yup. Magik...well, maybe soon. Gathering and crafting. Spreadsheets and gaming by the seat of your pants. It's all available. The OP posed a simple suggestion, that new players can legitimately build armies and send them out to die just as established players. Some may want assistance, just as builders are oft times looking for assistance. Those militant players are hardly more of a threat (yes, even fully grown) than the builders are. One can never build a large enough army to supress ones fellow players. Not for very long anyway. It is true, Ossian that sometimes there are actions than can get you your head handed to you but in Illy you can reattach said head and try again.

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Llyr
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2013 at 23:04
One reason I don't spend much time in GC is the fact that a lot of veteran players actually drive new ones away. Not on purpose, but by constant carping about "don't do that" and "do this". Does a new player really want to spend the first month or more clicking on a storehouse and resource plots? Maybe some do, but I'll bet most don't. I firmly believe that the large number of abandoned new accounts is due to the boredom that results from constant GC discouragement towards trying anything "that's only for bigger players".

GC, if you want to encourage and keep new players, lighten up on the hectoring. Encourage newbs to build a trader if they want. Encourage newbs to build diplos and armies if they want. Encourage newbs to start harvesting rare herbs and minerals if they want. Encourage newbs to start crafting if they want. Let newbs do whatever the heck they want, ferchrissakes. It's a game, not a job.

If I had listened to all the mother hens in this game I would have given it up a long time ago.


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/187558" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Sir Bradly
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2013 at 23:46
+1 Llyr 

Great post Electrok!


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2013 at 06:06
Originally posted by Llyr Llyr wrote:

Does a new player really want to spend the first month or more clicking on a storehouse and resource plots? Maybe some do, but I'll bet most don't.

This. So very much this.


Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2013 at 14:11
personally i hope the devs are reading this topic and realize they have to add military functions for the smaller players. it should not take weeks and months before a player can have fun matching wits against other players in game play. the sandbox mentality used by the devs gives lack of incentive for continue game play...all that is keeping alot of the players logging in is the social aspect of the game making it a slanted chat game with limited game play.  military needs to be not as damaging in warfare and there is several things the devs can change to encourage and make this play style a fun part of the game without losing the social aspect of the game. we should not be totally dependent of the devs pushing out a new tournament or the opening of broken lands. games like this must be more player against player or otherwise they get stale and controlled by a certain game style that insures the social aspect over the game aspect. hence we get a group encouraging non military against a pro military group. time to get active devs, make a decision and support the game, please dont just add click click click game functions but functions that we actually have to use our thought process....active factions and pathfinding would be a good start


Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2013 at 15:06
"we should not be totally dependent of the devs"

"time to get active devs, make a decision and support the game"
"i hope the devs are reading this topic and realize they have to add"

I see a slight disconnect in your logic.  Totally agree with the first part, and it turns out the Devs don't need to add squat for players to go to war with each other.  The fact there aren't 24/7 wars is a player generated.

Oh you can have an army before your rainbow runs out, the 'no newbie army' is once again player generated.  Which was the point of this thread to start.  Its ok for newbies to have armies, and there shouldn't be a 100% "Don't do that" aspect of player 'guides'


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2013 at 01:23
Isn't hunting NPCs the "military function for small players"? Kill stuff, get XP, level your commanders, use fancy equipment, collect interesting animal bits... all without direct PvP.


Posted By: ropadope
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2013 at 02:42
I never post here but this topic interests me...

This is a sandbox...build your own castle.  If you choose military and attack others...be prepared to start over.  It's that simple.


Posted By: Vanerin
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2013 at 06:11
I must say I was slightly disappointed by this post. I was expecting a guide designed to help new players learn. :\

I would be very interested in hearing more details how you would suggest a new player learning about military though.

~Vanerin


Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2013 at 02:05
if you're a new player, I would build and maintain a small military as soon as the rainbow ends.  I also always recommend this to new players and will send the equipment to get the started as generally I find the noob ring the most hostile environment there is in all of illy; with new players often testing magic, diplo attacks and even military against other unaligned new players all the time. At least, this was my experience when I joined and also when I made an alt. - M.


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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2013 at 02:59
I only got attacked once in the newb ring, and it was by a much bigger player. However, I leveled up the Mage Tower early, and over the first few months it incinerated quite an array of thieves, plus some saboteurs and assassins.


Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2013 at 06:03
Great post and I concur
Also a +1 to Lyr- great point and a completely agree. 



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"Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives."


Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2013 at 16:03
I think people are talking past eachother. No one really cares if newbies build military - their alliances may encourage them to grow first (as it makes sense to develope your infrastructure if you're hanging around for a longer time), but the real issue I see people taking with newbies building military for the purpose of PVP - which by all means is okay, but experience shows that newbies who choose this path usually fare poorly in general.

So I dont think there is anything wrong in encouraging players to know the game to some depth before they develope the capability to hurt themselves badly.


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"FYI - if you had any balls you'd be posting under your in-game name." - KP


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2013 at 20:10
T, I don't think you understand the military good/bad behavior any more clearly if you spend two weeks grinding out resource plots. You learn by asking, or for some people, by making mistakes. You are not able to harm yourself with a small army. Certainly other players can use a conflict as an excuse to beat up newbs (and GC has many such people), but the actual damage that can be inflicted with 100 axemen is negligible. The learning opportunities far outstrip any potential hazards.


Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2013 at 20:45
Learning takes times is all Im saying, and Illy takes patience to get to know. Many players who come from other MMO's will experience that progress come far less easy here (as we prefer it), and as such the prospect of playing with armies (small or big doesnt really matter you can always find someone slightly smaller than you to pick on) can seem attractive to those who grow impatient or bored - regardless of what they stand to gain in resources etc.

What I mean to say is Brandmeister that mistakes are not free of cost in Illy. If you act with aggression towards other players it sticks with you for a long time and you must be prepared to fend off other aggressors who now find that they have a "legitimate excuse" to raid and harass or even flat out siege said newbies cities. I dont think many GC people will rush to the defense of a raider (I could be wrong ofc.)

I dont stipulate that people should not be allowed to play with armies right off the bat, I just don't believe you get much out of that playing style in the long run. To me its about being a good mentor to newcommers first and foremost, but I leave the decision - and the consequences to the players themselves.

We can always agree to disagree.


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"FYI - if you had any balls you'd be posting under your in-game name." - KP


Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2013 at 22:58
You don't get much out of military knowledge in the long run? What are you talking about? The most active big Illy players tend to be tournament fighters, and every big alliance has capable warfighters. Many more people hunt for hides and animal parts. The military aspect is an ingrained part of Illyriad, especially in the long run.

You are suggesting that new players might get bored, and that those with a military might attack smaller players out of boredom. Sure, that's possible. But you make it sound like 100% of bored new players might do that. How many attacks have you seen announced in GC this year? I've probably seen less than 10. I would bet that 99% of new players would happily hunt animals and earn experience, because that's exactly what you so in most MMORPGs.

If some jerk tried to siege a tiny newb for abusing 50 militiamen, I think you would see lots of big players step in to stop things from getting carried away. Persistent, deliberate trolls get sieged. The clueless newb skirmisher, not so much.


Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2013 at 16:45
You read my posts like the devil reads the Bible. New players don't benefit from raiding others - they get no resources worth mention, they get meager amounts of xp, they only make enemies to hinder them later on - Which is bad, and you'll have to excuse me if that isn't clear enough I cant be bothered to explain it to you.

DO AS YOU PLEASE - ITS YOUR ASS ON THE LINE!


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"FYI - if you had any balls you'd be posting under your in-game name." - KP


Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2013 at 18:14
current game play doesnt require players to have a military. maybe when factions come alive or we have pathfinding that will change things. personally i got tired of providing for a million spear army and have reduced it so i dont have to log in much. but people should play as they want and right now for me its all waiting for broken lands and hoping the game changes....signed a former warmonger that has accepted the play of the game...grins politely with white pearly teeth



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