Support Petitions Poll
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
Forum Description: Got a great idea? A feature you'd like to see? Share it here!
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5073
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 03:00 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Support Petitions Poll
Posted By: Machete
Subject: Support Petitions Poll
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 00:59
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I wonder how many people think that all Illyriad development should stop until the Support Petition system is improved? This implies that the Petitions are actually updated and resolved.
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Replies:
Posted By: Crozno
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 02:30
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How about just fixing the polling? Since it reports I voted before even voting, LOL!
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Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 02:38
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A poll, I'm afraid to say, that falls into that most pernicious, siren-like of traps; one that, as a sometime player of many previous game titles, I have certainly been guilty of leveling at other game teams in the past. The question itself presents a false dichotomy.
The simple fact is that not everyone involved in reading, triaging, answering (and hopefully resolving) petitions / bugs is in the same team as those who are involved in new game feature development. And before anyone suggests "why not move some of them from the future dev team to the petition team", there are very different skillsets and abilities involved and it's not an option. A simple example would be that (eg) the guy trying to implement Chatv3 in websockets technology may actually never have played illy (and doesn't need to have played it to do his job well) and probably has literally no conception of what sovereignty is... and so won't be able to help with a petition about sov. This doesn't (and shouldn't) stop his work on something of future benefit to all.
SC
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Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 03:25
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I would say the problem is there are bugs. I wouldn't care about the petition system at all if there weren't bugs. I would also not be as worried about the bugs much if I knew they were fixed quickly via petition system.
And we aren't talking about small bugs but huge gameplay bugs. But I understand greatly how someone sees 'hey everyone were paying to generate all these new shiny things'and 'no we haven't fixed or even addressed your issue regarding current game play which heavily impacts you, and nor do we intend to do to so 'soon.'' But all thats doing is affecting whether or not paying customers continue to pay.
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 04:20
It could be better, faster. But halting all future development? Not a chance. I want pathfinding and improved mail/chat WAAAAAY more than I want the petition system improved.
------------- Bonfyr Verboo
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 04:21
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It seems to me that this is a rather silly question, since at least some development going on could address some issues raised by petitions.
On the other hand, it might be a useful strategy to have the developers post something that says "we know people are frustrated about the petition backlog. You can help us by doing the following things when posting petitions. We are taking the following steps to address this issue" (or "we think the entire issue is overblown and that the vast majority of Illy players are just fine with how the petition system works"). That would give us all something new to pick apart and complain about for a couple of weeks.
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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 04:40
I did respond to the concern a couple weeks ago.
http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/hire-a-petition-person_topic4859_post64431.html#64431
If you have an outstanding petition that is severely affecting your gameplay, please update it.
Luna
------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 05:18
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Update what? the petition? How does updating the petition affect whether or not it will be ignored for another month? I'm looking at one right now thats 9 months old. Status="New" And doesn't state anything about anybody having even looked at it. If we added a 'read' status then at least people would know if they need to update the petition with more info. Otherwise they all just look like unread mails.
And your response didn't address the problem at all. You stated this "We are very aware of outstanding petitions that need attention" Which maybe I misread but I read that as if your petition isn't being looked at its because it isn't important enough. And telling players that they are formally being ignored isn't a great response.
And the inability to receive volunteer work for petitions which was actually a great point, but no mention that there was even recognition of a problem let alone an eventual solution.
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 05:44
I recently updated my 5 month old petition about the horrible lag i'm experiencing in game. I logged on to see the status has just been upgraded to 'Acknowledged, Under Investigation'.
I also realized I put it in the wrong category. I put it in Rules & Policies instead of Technical Support. Should I update my petition to state that or should I just expect the person(s) working on it realized my mistake and corrected it themselves?
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 06:05
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While you may not see a status change when you update a petition, it changes something that makes it easier for the devs to find it. (In my imagination, updating causes the petition to float towards the top of the enormous pile of petitions on Stormcrow's desk.)
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Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 10:39
GM Stormcrow wrote:
A poll, I'm afraid to say, that falls into that most pernicious, siren-like of traps; one that, as a sometime player of many previous game titles, I have certainly been guilty of.... |
Yeeees. Steady on auld son. It's one thing to empathise, but this a trifle to far... if you'll forgive the pun. 
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Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 10:51
Machete wrote:
I wonder how many people think that all Illyriad development should stop until the Support Petition system is improved? This implies that the Petitions are actually updated and resolved.
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Effectively you are asking for the game to be put on hold, because of outstanding petitions and the apparent practise of recording them as resolved when they have not actually been assigned.
I see your point but I would say that failure to operate a proper complaints system is not , in itself, sufficient grounds for calling a halt to all development.
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Posted By: Albatross
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 11:03
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Couple of points: (1) There's a long-term gain in 'ignoring' bugs in code that is likely to be replaced soon. Polishing legacy stuff means that new stuff takes forever. (2) The vocal minority can skew the perception of the general state of all players. If a petition is placed, then it's a triage job, to understand the bug, then work with the team to prioritise it (by querying the data to see how many are affected and how badly). My point is that one petition does not reflect the needs of all players. Petitions are there to flag problems to the dev team, and *they* assess it for importance.
So this thread shouldn't be aimed at dev priorities, but perhaps communication. That too is fraught with intricate problems: There's a risk of upsetting players if the words "that's not important right now" are heard by an affected player. Further, if a sweeping change is promised, then that creates expectations, which can cause further problems.
The petition system already includes a feedback mechanism, so there's nothing actionable in the OP's proposal... but I can understand the frustration.
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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 14:37
Updating petitions that are very old lets us know the issue is still relevant. Many old petitions that list as "open" are no longer relevant because the issue was fixed in a patch, or relates to a town that doesn't exist anymore. (Or any number of other reasons why the petition isn't still causing an issue for the player.) So communication about what issues are still ongoing is important.
Thanks.
Luna
------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 15:14
personally i think all focus should be on broken lands and having factions come alive on this side. the game is getting stale and needs to add more stimulus. many people are loggin in less and less or quitting altogether. i believe the cause of this is not because petitions but of lack of new things to do. we definitely need more young people playing here. i dont think the game can attract them with the current gameplay. i will say this, in all my conflicts with the devs they at least listen to my side before they rule against me. this shows that they are concern about the current players. i just wish Luna would loosen up a little and explore her darker side and maybe understand and stop behaving like my mom all the time......hugssssssssssssss.....everyone...random dancing!
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Posted By: Auraya
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 15:19
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There's a very, very simple solution to this. If you want more people hired to deal with petitions, buy more prestige. The devs can only work so many hours per day and your annoying little bug which is not affecting anyone else probably isn't top priority. It may upset you but it simply can't be helped. In my experience, when multiple people are experiencing a problem then it is fixed pretty quickly - as are very dramatic bugs which seriously affect a person's gameplay.
I had a bug when sieging a city, meaning time was of the essence. I got multiple responses from the devs trying to help fix it before the city hit 0 pop. When I had a suggestion which I believed would only take 5 minutes to improve the game, it was implemented with the next update.
My experience of the customer service here is much better than any other game I've played. It may not be perfect but I think many people take the devs for granted and then get annoyed because they are not the gods people expect them to be.
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Posted By: Machete
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 15:22
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Thank you to everyone that voted and replied.
Currently, I have four (4) open petitions. NONE are affecting my game play. In fact, some were entered during my first few weeks of Illyriad and I wish I could close them. Actually, I would like to close all 4 of them.
Could we at least get that functionality? The ability to close/delete our own petitions? This may reduce the number of petitions so the important ones affecting a person's game play don't get lost in all the clutter?
Or is there a method the devs would like us to follow to communicate to them that a Petition can be closed?
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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 15:40
You can update requesting to close them and I can do that for you.
Luna
------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: Albatross
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 15:42
@Machete: good idea; I've wondered about doing that myself, but figured I'd just be creating work. I'll review any I have now...
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Posted By: Caconafyx
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 16:42
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Personally, if I were the Devs I'd put little or no priority in to answering the petitions of anyone who has not bought prestige.
Those that have bought prestige pay the Devs wages (unless we all want to be bombarded with banner adverts). Those that haven't bought any (not even a couple of £'s worth of prestige) are just freeloaders that should be grateful for what is a great and free game to them.
But that is just me, and a lot of you should be grateful I'm not running the game
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Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 17:01
I actually have to agree with Caco - today, time is money - you want special care and assistance (which can take a very long time to sort out) pay the devs (buy some prestige) and give them some food on the table.
Its not that I advocate that people without prestige consumption should not recieve help, however to be fair to those who do pay at this point, they are right in expecting their added resources are put into developing the game (ultimately, its not all about prestige, it is the reason why many of us pay year after year).
------------- "FYI - if you had any balls you'd be posting under your in-game name." - KP
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Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 17:24
yes...and i also think we should be able to pay a certain amount of money to have people banned for an hour or so.....gosh lets make the game even more unfair to people that dont have money...lets buy troops and everything. not everyone have rich bfs or gfs! prestige gives a major advantage already, we shouldnt add more advantage to it....mmmmm...wait i have rich bfs.......nevermind...wait i got to buff my troops and change the levels on my commanders....hey and we use alliance prestige to bribe the devs, they can go on vacation!money is a byproduct of providing good services or needs, time is a small part of it
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Posted By: Arakamis
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 17:36
If it is a bug, what's the difference between a paying / non-paying customer reporting it?
We're not talking about special requests here, we are talking about bugs that affect game play for everyone.
I'm a prestige user and i don't care if they answer my petitions or not, i just want them corrected. :D I don't want special treatment either, I'm sure devs can prioritize any and all reported petitions according to, I don't know, severity, game play, # of players affected by, reproducibility etc.
We just need to trust them imo, that's why we, me at least :), continue buying prestige.
edit: typo
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Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 18:43
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Ok i'm completely against the idea of buying prestige to get bugs fixed. You pay for a good product, you don't pay for a bad product.
If I had some of the sov problems other people had I would never buy prestige until the problem itself was fixed. Otherwise I would just be wasting money.
Also its not very satisfying to win when you know your opponent has a handicap.
I love the idea of factions. I don't love the idea of TBL but I wouldn't be worried about either of these if I had a big bug that affects my gameplay such that others are at a huge advantage. I've already seen huge bugs that did that to several players. And the response was 'woops.'
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 18:48
Caconafyx wrote:
Personally, if I were the Devs I'd put little or no priority in to answering the petitions of anyone who has not bought prestige.
Those that have bought prestige pay the Devs wages (unless we all want to be bombarded with banner adverts). Those that haven't bought any (not even a couple of £'s worth of prestige) are just freeloaders that should be grateful for what is a great and free game to them.
But that is just me, and a lot of you should be grateful I'm not running the game |
If you were in charge and that was the dev mentality i'd happily leave this game and find another one of the 1000s to play, as would most other players...
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Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 19:12
So...just to put this in perspective - you'd all be happy to pay regularly for the maintenance of all accounts, and to ensure that the game continues its developement?
Is that what you are saying?
------------- "FYI - if you had any balls you'd be posting under your in-game name." - KP
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Posted By: Caconafyx
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 22:46
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For the record I am unemployed and have been for longer than I care to admit, but even I can find £3 for a little bit of prestige.
My point that some of you couldn't/wouldn't grasp is that we cannot expect the dev's to work on this game for free. Now we can all bury our heads in the sand and pretend that money falls off trees, but someone, somehow needs to finance this game.
That is only going to be done by players funding the game or we get inundated with adverts.
So if you want a large team of dedicated staff to maintain the game to fix the glitches and continue to develop the game, either put your hands in your pocket, offer your tech services or do not moan when a petition about a glitch doesn't get answered.
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Posted By: Arakamis
Date Posted: 02 May 2013 at 22:55
There are solutions about this actually. In another online game that I use to play such adverts are displayed only to non paying customers. I don't mean banners covering everywhere with this but there are reasonable amount of advertisement banners displayed if you are not a paying customer. I'm sure, Illy Devs know about these things, they should know more about such options actually. :)
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 03 May 2013 at 00:00
Banner advertising works well in games with huge player populations. Smaller MMOs like Illyriad do well because a small number of paying players is integrated into a community of free players. The community itself anchors the paying players and encourages them to continuously invest small amounts of money over a long period of time. There is little point to risking the ire of the broader community over something like banner ads, because it could erode the dedication of the player base for a miniscule gain. You'd need dozens of free players exposed to banner ads to compensate for a losing even a small handful of long-term paying players.
To the OP, I'm an engineer, and I'm forced to agree with Stormcrow. Even basic coding isn't that interchangeable, because only familiarity with the existing code allows you to be productive. Once upon a time my company outsourced bug fixing for a complex product, and the initial results were heart-stoppingly bad. More bugs were generated than resolved, because the third party was incentivized to close tickets quickly rather than to thoroughly understand the code and implement adequate (and adequately tested) bug fixes. It might seem counter-intuitive to non-engineers, but the Mythical Man-Month is a well known principle in high tech. I would encourage you to Google "the mythical man-month" to understand why throwing more short-term resources at a late-stage technical problem is like trying to drown a fire with gasoline.
SC, I would comment that I think many of these problems should have been caught earlier with better testing. I've been in plenty of situations where there was big sales pressure to release an update, but we got burned (almost) every time we pushed code out the door before it was ready. I know it's hard to test in a live environment, but I've seen enough Illy bugs that should have been caught at the unit or feature test level in closed nightly regression testing.
Additionally, one effective method I've seen to allow for bug fixing help is to have adjacent module owners do one day per week of paired programming, or at least do a weekly code review. Then you've always got at least one extra person available who can immediately and competently jump in and help hunt down root causes and implement fixes. We called it the "hit by a bus" problem--what if Billy is hit by a bus tomorrow? If there's nobody to pick up his code, then you've got a serious problem with flexibility.
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 03 May 2013 at 01:10
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I wouldn't know what a game with adverts was like, as I don't bother to play those games. I'm sure the devs are doing fine money wise. I came from a few games where players were spending in excess of $10,000, games that were far less entertaining and had far more bugs then here.
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 03:32
GM Luna wrote:
If you have an outstanding petition that is severely affecting your gameplay, please update it.
Luna |
I posted a petition about a serious malfunction in a very important area of game play 2 months ago. I've updated it 5 times and added extra detail and I have seen nothing back.
Let's just be honest and admit that petitions are basically just a black hole and there's no point trying to submit them.
------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 03:39
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I hope that's not the case, KP, I have two unacknowledged petitions that are costing me or have cost me in prestige. One way to ruin a game's revenue stream is to ignore problems that are costing players money.
Perhaps, Broken Lands needs to be delayed until the current bugs are resolved. Carrying them over into the new lands makes absolutely no sense.
------------- CEO, Harmless? Founder of Toothless?
"Truth never dies." -HonoredMule
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Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 10:29
Starry wrote:
One way to ruin a game's revenue stream is to ignore problems that are costing players money.
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Enough!
Another way to ruin it, is by continually making vexatious and frivilous claims in the forums. If you personally think that this game is not value for money then pack your bags instead of making things unpleasant for the rest of us.
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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 13:31
Guys, I promise there is no reason to agure like that. We know there's an issue with sometimes a slow response time on petitions and that players are rightfully annoyed about it. We do our best and address as many as is possible for us every day.
I'm sure people find bugs every day in WoW with their staff of over 4000, people will just the same find bugs sometimes here as well with our staff of less than a handful.
If you need something, speak up in the petition queue where it can get seen and please hang in there as we try to help. That's all I can ask.
I'm going to close this out now before it spirals any further into people telling each other to quit the game. I don't want anyone to quit the game over this stuff.
Thanks.
Luna
------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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