Eliminate Option to Tenaril After Exodus
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
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URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4883
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 13:39 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Eliminate Option to Tenaril After Exodus
Posted By: Rill
Subject: Eliminate Option to Tenaril After Exodus
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 06:25
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I expect this suggestion will be met with howls of derision, but I honestly think it would be healthier for the game if it were implemented.
I think that the option to Tenaril should be limited to the first city founded on any account. I think that the option to Tenaril ANY city should be removed after the Exodus spell has been used for any city on the account.
"Terraforming" with Exodus followed by Tenaril is a popular option, but personally I think it fails the "fun" test. Yes, it can make a "good" square out of one that previously wasn't so good, but I think the pressure especially on new players to do this process early in their game careers results in people getting bored trying to build up level 20 warehouses and increases attrition.
Yes, this is a self-imposed misery, and rational people could choose to Tenaril in the usual way, but I think new players are often led by extremely well-intentioned established players to feel that Exo-Tenaril is the best option in the long term.
The ability for established players to create alts that then terraform a city that can be captured also eliminates some of the trade-offs that would otherwise occur in some regions (such as arctic and desert). I think this makes the game less interesting and results in a lack of creativity and diversity in game approaches; instead terraforming has become a one-size-fits-all answer.
My alliance makes extensive use of terraforming, and I would strongly consider using it myself. I don't consider it somehow "wrong." However, I do think it has negative effects on new players and existing players and that the game could be far more interesting without this option.
My general hope for Illy is that it should be a game that encourages many ways to approach problems, many paths to success, and also that the best solutions should be those that require some level of thoughtfulness. Terraforming with Exo-Tenaril fails this: It's a one-size-fits-all solution that anyone can do if they are willing to click enough. If Illyriad is a sandbox, then Exo-Tenaril is like a mold that creates a perfect -- and exactly the same -- copy of a castle upon being filled with enough sand and then upended. This may create an attractive scene but not a particularly interesting one.
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Replies:
Posted By: Gossip Boy
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 07:53
I am not sure about how it increases attrition.
From what I 've seen,the tenaril spell along with the cotter buildings actually make new players feel special.
I remember a similar suggestion thread moaning about the cotter buildings.
I think the devs introduced cotters to give new players a more level playing field. 
And similarly with all the natural good spots more or less taken or are out of reach of new players becoz of the 10 square rule . Terraforming gives new players a chance to atleast have 1 good food sovereignty city.
------------- Elessar2 [08:34]<Rill> when you've just had part of your brain taken out, you lack a certain amount of credibility <KillerPoodle> I can say anything I like and it is impossible to prove or disprove
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Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 08:45
This isn't 'terraforming'... This is Illyriad Warming! Why else do you think a 7 food temperate or tropical square of land could occur in an environment filled with tundra?
Honestly, I don't disagree with your points on the 'fun' factor. However... as Elessar states in his final sentence, this does give new players a viable option for a 'good' food city.
If you want to change this - the Devs need to do something about the food-army-gold link... oh wait, they did that already!
------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect...
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Posted By: Aristeas
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 09:53
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A possible solution for the problem created for the newbies through loosing the ability to terraform would be letting every new town start on a 7-food tile, so the one Tenaril every one has would be a onetime terraform for the newbies. Though possibly this would make terraforming through alts even easier, what surly isn“t intended...
Maybe a little less perfectionist answers and tipps for newbies in GC would be the better solution... Otherwise I see the problem just as Rill, it can really take the fun out of the game for those who feel they HAVE to do it in order to be able to compete.
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Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 11:02
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This wouldn't stop terraforming from happening, but just put newer players at a disadvantage. Currently the best way to alt terraform is to raze the first town, thereby giving the second town settled the ability to Tenaril. Much quicker than exo/tenaril, a 8-9 day process that is a simple rinse/repeat.
With the severe disadvantage that 5 food tiles cause in the mid/late game, I think it is a fundamental design issue rather than anything else. You start on a 5 food and have no idea that it is horrible in the end. By the time you realize, you may not want to take the severe hit exodus causes to correct the problem, leading to a lack of interest in a very difficult problem to now overcome. It is much easier to get help in the beginning from your alliance to exo/tenaril when it doesn't hurt you and start on a much better foundation for lasting.
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Posted By: Gossip Boy
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 11:23
I agree that exo/tenaril decreases the initial growth rate of new players but there's a positive side to it too. Exodusing at an earlier stage makes new players aware of the cost of exodus and thus hazards related with bad city placement. I still see a lot of new players in some of the most respected training alliances having cities on a 5 food square surrounded by buildings/mountains (ask any illy warrior why is it bad).
However I don't agree that by following this route players are getting bored or there's a risk of getting bored. For me, it depends on the individual alliances. I think most of the players will agree that Illy's UCP is its amazing community and the same goes with alliances for me.New players and old players both derive fun from AC activities. I don't wanna indicate that gameplay is totally irrelevant here, it could also be made fun at the same time. In Den, We are conducting a harvesting tourney which gives our new players a chance to explore the harvesting part of the game on their own.This increases their illy learning and at the same time competing in a tournament brings in the fun factor.
------------- Elessar2 [08:34]<Rill> when you've just had part of your brain taken out, you lack a certain amount of credibility <KillerPoodle> I can say anything I like and it is impossible to prove or disprove
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Posted By: Halithore
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 11:52
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I can see the reasons why it may take some pressure off a new player but at the end of the day there are plenty of 7 crops with poor food sov available where players could run a perfectly fine account. They may not get 10 cities and a huge army but that isn't for everyone anyway and if that is their aim they should expect to have to put in a bit more effort and planning for the long term.
As it currently is if you do care about city locations being as good as you can get then terraforming really is the only option. I only started in December and out the cities I've settled 2 have been 7 crops without the need for a terra and I've not been able to find any other good ones nearby without terraforming. I really like the little details so want to have as good locations for cities as i can without spreading a mile over the map and terraforming is the only way i can have that. It takes more work but I'm happy doing it so i can achieve my goal of better city locations.
I get it isn't really feasible for someone with 2 cities to run a terraform alt but i'm always happy to help out one of our alliance members by doing their first for them using my alt as i don't have the time to play 2 accounts. If big alliances take on someone smaller who is keen on terraforming I can't see it being too big a problem for someone bigger to help out initially until they can do it themselves.
By taking it out I only see it benefitting those who have played for the longest, those who already have their cities and don't need to worry about finding new ones. Without the option to terra it would put new accounts at a disadvantage so I would hope it never changed.
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For a pessimist i'm pretty optimistic
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 15:30
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Several steps could be eliminated if we could simply declare any town our capital. Why is it necessarily the first one?
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 17:34
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I'm not if favor of eliminating the tenaril option. In fact, i'd like to see terraforming expanded to where we can change our surrounding landscapes. We should have a building and diplo/trade units that change deserts into grasslands, tundra into grasslands, grasslands into mountians, you get the idea.
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Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 18:04
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I wholeheartedly disagree with Rill. And wholeheartedly agree with Epidemic.... Thats odd were always at opposite ends in the other threads.
I like the idea of actually spreading the ability to terraform. But the cost would be very large. My first thought is it would take millions of basic res. (Anyway else have absurd amounts of basics they can't use?) After all why can't i just build a mtn :D
I actually think it would be a great thing to do for those at 10 cities and simply have nothing else left to do. Let them slowly improve on each of their cities.
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Posted By: Auraya
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 18:50
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Killjoy :P
Everyone knows my love of terraforming, I don't need to repeat myself here. I hope it is never taken away and I've not known any newbie who was unhappy to do it. I wish I'd had the option as a newbie, exodusing later was brutal and heartbreaking.
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 00:22
Brandmeister wrote:
Several steps could be eliminated if we could simply declare any town our capital. Why is it necessarily the first one? |
hear, hear. the devs promised this when they introduced Tenaril's and have never delivered on it.
terraforming opens up sections of the map that would otherwise be less habitable (i.e., sections devoid of 7-food squares), so i submit that removing it from the game would put new players at a further disadvantage, since they now would not only have to live with their first 5-food city, but might also have to make further compromises on a crowded map that no longer offered terraformed spaces as an option.
i agree that the process is arcane and burdensome, but the burdensome part is exodus rather than terraforming. alliance assistance can make it much more enjoyable, and serves as an excellent introduction to one's allies. as Le Roux has consistently pointed out, there is no issue reaching the population for 10 cities with one located on 5-food, so it really should be optional. furthermore, the vast majority of players will never reach the point where it matters, as in the usual player churn they move on well before maximising population has any bearing on their play. i was one of the early proponents of the technique, but i do not push players toward it other than to explain how it works--because for most players it is a burden they needn't bear. it seems to me that where the "fun test" is failed is not in the mechanic itself, but in the community's insistence that everyone is served by pushing it on new players.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 00:47
Angrim wrote:
It seems to me that where the "fun test" is failed is not in the mechanic itself, but in the community's insistence that everyone is served by pushing it on new players. |
Angrim, I feel that way about a number of so-called Rules that new players are told to follow. I think the huge Illy players sometimes forget how boring the first few weeks can be, and give advice that makes it even more boring. When GC tells someone that they will be ready to start playing in 'only' another month of steady grinding, I think we lose a lot of energetic new players who want to begin with a little excitement and interaction. The obsession with terraforming and 7-food tiles is a great example of that phenomenon.
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Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 02:54
Brandmeister wrote:
Angrim wrote:
It seems to me that where the "fun test" is failed is not in the mechanic itself, but in the community's insistence that everyone is served by pushing it on new players. |
Angrim, I feel that way about a number of so-called Rules that new players are told to follow. I think the huge Illy players sometimes forget how boring the first few weeks can be, and give advice that makes it even more boring. When GC tells someone that they will be ready to start playing in 'only' another month of steady grinding, I think we lose a lot of energetic new players who want to begin with a little excitement and interaction. The obsession with terraforming and 7-food tiles is a great example of that phenomenon. | Disagree- terraforming is the smart way to inhabit a "golden" spot rather than an ok spot- If the player sticks around to have 6,7 or 8 cities they will be thankful they saved the tenaril and terraformed rather than being stuck on a 5 food and having to exodus later. If having "a little excitement" is making stupid moves you will regret later and have to correct then by all means go ahead- but dont say we didnt tell ya so;p
------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives."
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 04:19
The Duke wrote:
If having "a little excitement" is making stupid moves you will regret later and have to correct then by all means go ahead- but dont say we didnt tell ya so;p |
So noted, but I don't expect to have any regrets.
I've been here six months, and I'm on city #5. I have no particular hesitation about keeping my original city. If I ever choose to build #7,8,9,10 I think there will be plenty of time to correct non-ideal placement of a single city. I haven't used my Tenaril spell yet, and probably won't unless a really interesting location becomes available. But on the slight chance that it happens, I would value the magic much more for that purpose than for shifting around a single 7 food tile.
I should be clear, I'm not questioning the usefulness of terraforming. It is a good tool for experienced players who have committed to the long haul. It's just that newbs get fed a diet of really bland advice--prep your 2nd settlement for terraforming, don't have an army until 5000 population, focus primarily on leveling resource plots, don't claim sov under 10000 pop, ad nauseam--and most of that advice is only relevant if you're a player who sees investing a year to attain 10 cities as your personal endgame. If a newb happens to be a player who's interested in trading, exploring, hunting, crafting or other non-military, non-alliance activities, the GC environment can be discouraging.
I chose to ignore the standard wisdom about how to start Illy. I've had a lot of fun. But in all honesty, after hearing so many people in GC tell me that I'd have to invest a year, and do things The Right Way, and follow a very bland path to maximum population, I thought long and hard about hitting Abandon. I'm glad I stuck around, and I'm really glad I didn't listen to their advice.
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Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 04:27
First.. I have terraformed to establish a town in frozen tundra area. So I have done this and when I examine my gameplay honestly, as things currently stand, I kind of gamed the system in doing this.. and others are doing the same imho... It does change the 'trade-off' dynamic in some extreme locations. They did limit alt accounts to one per player - players get around that by abandoning an alt as soon as a terraforming operation is done. The tenerial spell was created to move players out of the noob ring... not to promote terraforming (we didn't have exodus back then). There is no way the devs intended us or could have foreseen us doing taking advantage of this game mechanic and the loopholes in the game rules this way.
I think it would be epic if the devs implemented this suggestion and made terraforming an advanced spell of some sort. - M.
EDIT: oh yeah forgot to mention... imho new players have other stuff to worry about. So much focusing on a seven square food tile is useless for 90% of the player pop. Most will never need that much food just as most will never claim more than one or two sov squares per city.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 04:52
How prevalent is it to create a new account, exodus/tenaril for the terraform, and then abandon? It seems rather against the spirit of having only a single alt. I was under the impression that terraforming was typically used just once in order to locate a 7 food plot close to some high value boost tiles like dolmens, barrows and so forth. Creating large numbers of expendable alts is an industrial process that seems more like an exploit.
Since you have to join someone's alliance in order to Tenaril within 10 squares of them, shouldn't it be obvious to the devs that some alliances have a constant churn of new accounts joining, using Tenaril to drop a 7 food tile near an established player, and then abandoning immediately afterwards?
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Posted By: Auraya
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2013 at 08:52
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The devs are aware of, and have given permission for, terraforming using alts providing you don't attempt to get free prestige by referring yourself multiple times.
Every game has many players join and 90% quit. I actually encourage terraform more for the server itself than the newbie in question. If the newbie quits, they have at least created a better square which someone else can take thus not wasting the millions of resources sent to them. Interest can be raised in other ways - Q&S run quizzes, encourage quests/mysteries early on, try to get them talking in AC/GC etc. The biggest turn off for most newbies is that they can't smash other newbies, not terraform.
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Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 08:45
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I don't just think that Rill's suggestion shouldn't be implemented; I think that it must not be implemented, because it would unbalance the game. The newbies who terraform do so because it gives them an advantage. The defensive power of a mountain combined with the good sense of settling on a 7 food square is a good combination. This is obvious; were it not, then newbies would not be advised to do it. So those new players who have taken the time out of their lives to sort that out have been rewarded for their dedication. If this was then banned, those players would be at a permanent advantage which can never be oversome. It would unbalance the game.
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 13:58
Nok - you can't run a game where you never make changes because it would disadvantage some section of the player base. You'd end up completely stagnated and never able to progress.
One city on a 7 food mountain out of a possible 10 is not really that much of an advantage in the long run.
That said I'm completely agnostic to the original issue of this thread.
------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Posted By: Halithore
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 14:57
KillerPoodle wrote:
Nok - you can't run a game where you never make changes because it would disadvantage some section of the player base. You'd end up completely stagnated and never able to progress.
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If you put new players at a disadvantage though it is also damaging for brining in a constant flow of new players which any game needs.
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For a pessimist i'm pretty optimistic
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Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 17:19
Halithore wrote:
If you put new players at a disadvantage though it is also damaging for brining in a constant flow of new players which any game needs. |
well...i would characterise myself as against needlessly disadvantaging any specific group, but i doubt that an influx of new players would somehow be stemmed by a change in the process of exodus or Tenaril's.
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Posted By: Halithore
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 17:55
Angrim wrote:
Halithore wrote:
If you put new players at a disadvantage though it is also damaging for brining in a constant flow of new players which any game needs. |
well...i would characterise myself as against needlessly disadvantaging any specific group, but i doubt that an influx of new players would somehow be stemmed by a change in the process of exodus or Tenaril's.
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It may not stem it as most won't know at the time but it will harm their chances of getting good cities which will put some people off when they find out. I mean if i had to just make do with what was left now most the good spots are gone i'd probably be less enthused about playing as i am now as i would know even in time i couldn't match a lot of accounts merely because they were there first.
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For a pessimist i'm pretty optimistic
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Posted By: Epidemic
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 18:24
Halithore, when I first started the game and up to when I had 6 towns there were no 7 food squares or rare resources. I had to exodus all my towns, which is a severe pain.
I wouldn't worry too much on new players being at a disadvantage, i'd worry more on veteran players being put at a disadvantage with every new update coming out.
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Posted By: Halithore
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 18:35
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I understand it must have been a pain, I'm only a new player so i can only really voice the concerns i'd have from my point of view.
I get the introduction of 7 crops would be a pain meaning you had to exodus but it doesn't give the new players an advantage just made it more annoying for older ones as you had to go through exodussing. New players still had nothing and would take much longer to get set up.
Getting rid of tenarils would leave no work around and would be more than an annoyance imo to newer players. The map can only support so many good city locations and without tenarils the number is much lower.
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For a pessimist i'm pretty optimistic
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 19:10
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I think "much lower" is a considerable exaggeration. This map is enormous and still sparsely populated.
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Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 19:24
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The map is enormous and spasley populated. But if good spots are only on every 1000 sq's, and the 10 sq radius rule means if your allianceless every other city claims 300 sq's around them. All of a sudden it starts looking very populated.
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Posted By: Aral
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 19:33
In my experience, terraforming is the ONLY way to secure a decent seven food spot nowadays (apart from sieging another city). Otherwise, you can have your pick of dolmen-less seven food spots or pretty good five food spots. Of course, the prevalence of terraforming we see today wasn't there a year ago, when it was simply a difficult and time-consuming way for people to get 7 food mountains. I realize that there is more to consider in a spot than food, but as long as military is a large part of this game it will continue to be the largest factor in determining where to settle.
------------- Aral Llc is not responsible for any grievous bodily harm sustained while reading this signature. No rights reserved.
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Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 21:04
I've always advocated that the percentage boost to production from sov claims be dropped specifically for basic resources.
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2013 at 22:14
Halithore wrote:
KillerPoodle wrote:
Nok - you can't run a game where you never make changes because it would disadvantage some section of the player base. You'd end up completely stagnated and never able to progress.
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If you put new players at a disadvantage though it is also damaging for brining in a constant flow of new players which any game needs. |
When the game started (as those of us from Day 1 will attest) there were none of the advantages available to noobs now. In fact nearly every major change so far has been a disadvantage to those already established in the game.
Trust me - the new players will cope just fine.
------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM
"a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill
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Posted By: Voice In The Night
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2013 at 22:59
I just wanted to throw my hat in here, especially in regard to the
question of how this affects the fun new players have when playing.
There
seems to be a core group of Illy players that only advocate a single
way of playing the game. New players that seek advice in GC are drowned
in various guides and suggestions, all of which is not a bad thing by
itself. However, people in that group I referred to most often present
their advice as something which should be followed rather than something worth considering. They act like it's the only way to do things.
I
understand that most of this advice is meant to help new players and
give them the opportunity to plan wisely for their long-term success.
But as some others have mentioned here, the methods that are suggested
to new players can be boring or limiting.
When I first started
playing Illy, I was told by some people that there are many ways to
play. I liked that, and I still believe that is true. But I wonder how
many people would not agree, or perhaps say something to the effect of,
"Well, you can play any way you want, but this is how you
should play if you want to succeed." So far I've been playing the way I
want to, and I'm happy with it. I can see where I might have made other
choices, more profitable ones even, but to me that's really secondary to
what matters most. What matters to me is that I enjoy the game, and so
far I do.
I think it's a matter of expectations, in some ways.
Does every person that joins Illy desire to be the best at everything
and build the biggest cities possible? Obviously not. So why do some
people act like it's crazy for someone to simply play the game and enjoy
it in their own way?
As for whether the option to Tenaril
should be gone once Exodus is used: I think there's a good chance that
the devs did not intend for the relocation spell to be used in this way.
I'm not enough of an expert to know how, or even if, this has a
significant affect on the overall game as it relates to balance. But
assuming that it doesn't create any real problems, I think it can be
left the way it is now.
What I would like to see a change in is
the general attitude toward playing the game and the way that new
players are presented with all the options before them. I was perfectly
fine with picking and choosing what advice to take and what to ignore.
Some people might be easily overwhelmed, and as a result decide that
they really ought to follow all the advice given. The problem I see with
that scenario is that in many ways this can lead to the game becoming
more like work than anything else.
I agree 100% with Rill that this way of making the "perfect spot" for your city fails the "fun" test. When I start playing a game, my first thought is not, 'I wonder how I can go out of my way to get a very specific advantage way down the line, while ignoring all of the other fun possibilities the game has to offer.'
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Posted By: Unidentified
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2013 at 13:35
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Give us one free exodus at the beginning then (maybe with double normal exodusing speed), along with the Tendril. Or extend the map bigger, problem solved.
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