Consone Appointment
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4749
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 15:49
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Consone Appointment
Posted By: HATHALDIR
Subject: Consone Appointment
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 11:44
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The Consone Confederation is announcing that it is appointing Manannan as a peace negotiator. He is not a part of our confederation, he is merely a neutral party helping to broker peace in Illy. We welcome his wisdom and pray that his efforts are met with open hearts. We ask you to support him in this important role! ------------- There's worse blokes than me!! |
Replies:
Posted By: Mayflower
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 11:52
| Very good choice. All the best on smooth peace negotiations. |
Posted By: Captain Kindly
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 12:15
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Good choice, and all the best wishes to Mana in his efforts. :)
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/60249" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 12:24
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Oh dear. Not trout for tea again.
Seriously I wish Consone all the best in this.
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 14:38
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An interesting choice given that we've already told you numerous times that surrender negotiations need to happen on an alliance by alliance basis and not at the level of a fundamentally flawed, ineffective and mostly defunct entity.
------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 15:03
Are you calling Manannan a fundamentally flawed, ineffective and mostly defunct entity?  If you have separate terms for each alliance, please send them all through Hathaldir. If you want to settle terms with Absa and want to continue battling our allies, shove that idea down your throat. |
KillerPoodle wrote:Posted By: Grego
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 15:21
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWK04X-RcJs |
Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 15:22
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Perhaps your disapproval of our negotiating requirements and/or terms will be more of an issue for us when we're the ones wanting to surrender (without calling it surrender, of course). Otherwise, we remain ever patient.
------------- "Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now." - HonoredMule |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 15:29
| Ever patient and ever persistent. |
Posted By: Daufer
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 00:42
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At this point you may as well just ask yourselves: (A) "Do we want to drag on for the next couple of months while our enemies systematically raze our cities, exterminate our population, eviscerate our military and cripple our economy while hoping that eventually they tire of pounding on us and let us go back to playing the game we like" or (B) "Do we just surrender now and let them demolish some cities, eliminate most of our army, pay them whatever they ask for in terms of gold and crafted equipment, and get back to playing the game we like right now" Honestly those are your best options, and neither is good. Harmless? probably prefers that you go with option (A) because this is more interesting than a tournament. This is fun for them, and the longer you drag it out the more enjoyment they are getting for their time and money. The alternative is a coordinated all-in offensive against Harmless? to take them out of the fight, which even if it succeeds will still leave you so weak that their allies and anyone else with a grievance will eat you alive. The odds of this ending well for you are not getting better.
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Posted By: HATHALDIR
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 02:17
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If you want to deal with each alliance individually, thats fine also, just do it through Mana! Or if peace is of no interest to you, lets us know so we can stop bugging you! ------------- There's worse blokes than me!! |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 02:44
I like to think we are a bit more how shall we say, coordinated? than this? Seriously, we try to communicate openly and in real time. This as a likelihood is not likely for a given RPN... ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 03:57
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It will take me 6 months to reach 9 cities starting anew, and the war is already in its 5th month. I understand you and HonoredMule consider yourselves such scary and fearsome folks, but there is nothing you can threaten us with so. The worst you can possibly do is to destroy my cities once, that is all. If I could betray my friends behind their back, pay our enemies whatever they ask for in terms of gold and crafted equipment, and "get back to the game we like", I would be in Dark Empire, not Absa. Thanks for your suggestion though. |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 04:35
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Consider if all consone alliance leaders each, individually, approached H? for terms. Then, privately among themselves, discussed their alternatives. I note that the Coalition considers the concept of "Consone Leadership" as non-existent. So by all the consone alliance leaders dealing with Coalition at once with a common goal, perhaps ... meh... I dunno. Good luck.
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Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 04:58
What an interesting perspective. What makes you think "a coordinated all-in offensive against Harmless? to take them out of the fight" would actually work? we have not used almost any of our offensive forces... I hope Soup tries it... it will let lots of armies who have been complaining get some exercise... What the members of Consone have not even begun to fathom is that we have not even started to effectively coordinate amongst Coalition allies to date nor retasked our cities for real war... We at H? are still on the same footing we were at in October. That ends today. The order has gone out for all H? cities to be put on war footing... Not that we are unhappy with our 10:1 kill ratio, but the next couple months will show a much, much higher city loss ratio. Watch. |
Posted By: Mr Damage
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 05:06
| Thought it was pretty simple as HATH stated, you want to negotiate settlement, talk to Mana, if not, don't bother. Threaten all you like, no-one is arguing any foreseen outcomes here and like Ander I don't care to lose everything, it is most likely the outcome. We believe in our defunct Consone entity as you repeatedly wish to slander it and we believe in its purpose, just as we believe the Coalition to be an opportunistic collaboration secretly arranged to maintain a hold on the direction of the game. I don't begrudge you that, I just don't believe it is the best way, opinions differ and so we are at war. So talk to Mana or don't, he is the contact point for Consone, apart from that carry on with whatever you want. |
Posted By: Hadus
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 05:30
What is this, Call of Duty?  ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/157483" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 08:33
It is apparent that diplomacy is not your strong point (two posts, two insults, nice ratio :p ), but the obvious question is "if your friends want to talk peace or drop from the fight, aren't you in fact betraying them with your persistence on a war in which you do not even have objectives .?." Maybe YOU do not mind losing all your cities, but the members of the alliance you lead AND your friends DO MIND. Have you ever thought of that or are you so engrosed into your sense of honor that you fail to consider that what you think is not necessarily shared with all your allies or friends .?. Speaking of allies, another question is "what is left of the original Consone since many (if not most) of the alliances in the birth of Consone either disbanded or changed leaders .?."
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Posted By: HATHALDIR
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 08:50
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Before a moderator gets on here, let me remind everyone what the topic is' Consone has appointed Manannan as the person who is handling peace for us, i will trust he will do his best to meet his task mustering his not inconsiderable skills in diplomacy. If you want to postulate, trash talk and denigrate other people or discuss the current state of war, please do so on another Forum topic, lets leave this one for its original intention, one that is meant to be non-inflammatory Thankyou ------------- There's worse blokes than me!! |
Posted By: Sajreth
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 09:31
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In the words of my favorite musical artist, POE a.k.a. Annie Danielewski "You can't talk to a psycho like a normal human being." -------------  
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Posted By: Sajreth
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 10:11
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Yet on the realistic side.....on this point it has been agreed....we have chosen Mananaan to be the intermediary for Consone, WE have agreed to this as well, This is a step forward for our group as a whole, and should it be found "unacceptable" let the court of public opinion show who is the real party of aggression without reasonable discussion. I cannot speak for all of Consone, as I am but one leader in a crowd of many, however, I can at this point (unless otherwise dictated by the alliance as a majority) state that WE are willing to agree to a ceasefire, not a full surrender at this time. WE refuse to be bullied into a position of submission, especially after the exorbitant conditions presented before us. (which I offer to be released in full to any who ask, as I believe in full transparency, and won't be dictated to by the other party(ies) involved) WE were separately in the process of negotiation, as an individual alliance. We though belong to Consone as a whole, and have chosen Mannanan to speak for us as a group. It is felt that if H? is really sincere about re-establishing the overall peace of the realm, it can be handled in the realm of the public and not in secrecy (unless they have an overall deceptive ulterior motive in which they wish to hide from the rest of the community) Since H? has a coalition supporting them as a group, it is only appropriate that they negotiate with us as a group.....If this was a one on one alliance war I would feel otherwise....however a group begets a group. Once again WE are ready to discuss terms of a ceacefire, or peace via Mannanan re-establishing the previous peace enjoyed in the realm as it was before. WE, however, will not surrender to those that are the biggest bullies in the game. As the leader of WE I will state from here on forward, we will conduct ourselves as appropriate to current situations. Unlike other alliances WE will not hold past grudges as an account for current situations, WE will be the bigger person (or group of persons as it were). Not the children who hold the past accountable for the present. -Sajreth -------------
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Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 12:22
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^^ such a small little elf, using such big words ------------- 
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Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 12:29
Nice coordination there ...  |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 13:42
I hope you still plan to honor your statement about not sieging people out of the game. -------------  |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 14:21
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Kumo is right.... if the peacetalks fail, perhaps we could raise it to 2:10 And seriously... as all fighting factions still are growing, inspite of the city loss, talking about surrender is a bit far fetched... ...let's put it like: We weren't happy to fight from the start, as it forces a player in front of the computer, and takes time coordinating. We aren't afraid of loosing, but such a long war tends to turn annoying after some time, and expensive in prestige for some players...  Some former Consone alliances decided, this effort is to much for a game, and chose the short way out (and I fully respect their decisions, although I had been surprised about some of them...). But the remaining alliances would like negotiations. I'm sure, not only at our side are players, which would like to see this war closed before BL starts. If it doesn't happen this way, we could fight on for years without having any results... As for Consone as a group... we decided to openly state conections. We could have held them secret, too, especially, if we ever had the intention to fight anyone. But after stating it officially, we damn sure want it to stay a group. I don't know, why H? is so harsh about seeing the "confed" thing deleted from the diplo pages... There's something like metagaming, too...  H? showed impressively during the last few month, that they still can muster the bigger block of Confeds, and was successful in taking some of our confeds out of the war...  Now, as you clearly are the number 1 again, why deny us our grown friendships ingame? Let's have fair peace talks (and that goes out to some partly insulting statements from our side, too...). If not between equals, then at least between number 1 and 2 (or 2 and 3, no idea how big Crows and friends would be in comparison, no insult intended by above numbers...) kindest regards, Hora and Detritus |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 15:04
Brids-- We haven't even come close to sieging anyone out of the game. The only folks who have left, have left because they emo rage quit. That's a silly comment. |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 15:19
This is the fundamental problem. You believe this to be true. We believe it not to be true. Your side of the war has been decreasing in size steadily every month. Time will be the test. Until this attitude shifts, I think we are at an impasse regarding any talks. |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 15:22
You miss the point. Consone has no negotiating power. Why would the Coalition negotiate for anything? The Coalition is destroying the Consone alliances with each passing minute. Consone needs to surrender to stop it. There is nothing to "negotiate." A handful of leaders of the various Consone alliances that remain are blinded by their pride and have decided to fight until they quit Illy - we have seen several already bow out. The rank-n-file of those alliances must now decide if they wish to fight to death or ultimately wish to continue to prosper in Illy.
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 15:27
Frost has disbanded.
Roads quit Consone. VICX quit Consone. WE was 5.5 million pop at the outset, now under 3 million pop. WE and VIC have changed leaders due to the war. |
Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 15:43
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You are losing, why would H? and friends want "fair" negotiations? You rebelled and you are getting stomped. and really if it wasnt for travel times i doubt the war would still be going on :P -------------
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 16:00
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@TD: Yes, I know... I stated confeds leaving our side, and actually talked about each alliance for it's own. ...but to be honest, those losses weren't due to sieges... From those players, that stayed, those few towns lost weren't too bad for us... You can't really think you sieged towns for a total of 2.5 Mio pop only out of WE... (minus the rebuilding...) You got those players and alliances out, that didn't want to invest such many time/money/brain into constant warfighting (and partly, new alliances were founded, especially out of WE...) Same with Jasche, as organizing, while constantly being insulted or painted as evil in forums, takes some nerves. Many players left, as Illyriad becomes more and more time intensive, the forums more and more trolled or insulting (again both sides) , and the option for negotiations doesn't seem seen as fit by any side having the upper hand for some time, because "Hey, it's just a game! Let's shoot until they surrender..." I think your side, too, lost some players not wanting to fight. Only that the smaller side has additional looses of some players preferring to play at the stronger side... (sad, but only natural ).Those losses of war tired players will increase with the length of the war, on both sides. Many veteran players quit Illy because of that. That's why we offer new negotiations. Tell Manannan, what you want from us (as you still have some upper hand), and we tell Manannan, what we are ready to invest. Perhaps we even could negotiate some land exchanges, resettling (possibly on both sides...). I would be happy, if your party would at least try this concept of negotiating... I heard it worked quite well in some RL conflicts |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 16:03
Rebell against what? We had a conflict with Rhy, and H? decided we were a threat. Doesn't sound like proper rebelling to me. Alternative would have been to accept (and not to defend against) sieges we would have got anyway. |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 16:08
Exactly that is the sad part about that war...
Why? You have heads, fingers, keyboards...! Negotiations could possibly leave you as the winning side, too, and often don't take so painfull long time to come to an end... |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 16:29
I didn't say pop losses were due to siege damage. You said Consone continues to grow. That is a blatant lie. Consone has lost a tremendous amount of pop due to war. VIC has lost a lot of pop and players - VIC was over 8 mill pop at start of war, now under 8 million. That is the truth. Again, why should the Coalition negotiate anything? What can Consone offer the Coalition? I know what the Coalition offers Consone - namely an opportunity to stop the war, rebuild, and get on playing trade and craft and tournament preparations. Consone offers the Coalition what? So far, it seems Consone offers what it offered before the war - lies. Surrender or not. The choice rests with Consone.
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Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 16:42
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I can speak for Frost on this matter. After seeing the effort and time investment required to continue with a war, our smaller members decided to move to where they could continue their crafting/trading in peace while the rest of us merged with other Consone alliances. In the entire time of the war we have indeed lost people, but not to the reasons you think. Real life is a constant threat, and usually takes a larger toll on membership than any game. As for positions of power, yes the Coalition holds the distinct advantage simply due to the amount of friends it has gotten on it's side. But the simply fact is this, most of our players and yours have grown throughout the war. One side sees the war as good fun, and some on the other side do as well. One side is actually interested in a simple peace, where the other side is interested only in domination. You have made it abundantly clear you are not actually interested in peace, only surrender. Those are two completely different ideas, and I am sorry to say that you will not ever get surrender from the majority of us. To be quite honest, it is just a game. If you actually do manage to inflict greater losses on us, no real damage is done. What would be damaging to Illy and at least a third of it's players would be for no good reason surrender to your outrageous demands. There is a line drawn as I see it, you will not allow peace, and we will not allow surrender. This new landscape of constant war is the future of Elgea. Who really loses are the players on both side that tire of the constant effort involved and leave the game completely because of it. ------------- 
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 16:48
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At the moment, the Coalition refuses to offer Consone a way out of the war, only shattered parts of it. All we want, is that we finally can talk about conditions, that aren't higher than any loss we'd get in the war, a way we actually can accept without loosing more members than through the war. Accepting to negotiations isn't the same as declaring us winners , or at least equals...I don't know, why everyone gets upset, if we offer talks. Why do you want us begging for mercy first? All we'd like is to know what you want, namely via a neutral person (not in forums, as that seems easier for both sides). Then we can discuss, if we would come out better with such conditions, than from prolonging the war, and perhaps offer alteration, which you could accept, or decline... What have we done to anyone of you, that you take the work of waging half a year of war (or even longer)? There had been insults and lies both ways. If you are at such upper hand, why the fear of us? Do you still think of us taking over place one on the server? We fought a defensive war from the start, and defense was all we ever prepared for... I don't understand all the hatred against Consone... |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 16:53
Consone seems to think that if only a new negotiator talks somehow the Coalition will change its terms. That is fantastical thinking. Here's where we are: Coalition has presented terms to stop the war. Consone has rejected those terms. War continues. The rank-n-file of Consone must understand that they are in a war now only to satisfy the egos of Consone leaders who misled Consone into war and are unwilling to pay the price to end the war. Consone holds the keys to peace. Accept the terms of surrender and peace will once again sweep the lands of Illy (excepting that nCrow Ursor Directive
). |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:01
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Satisfy our egos!? Sins will be forgotten?!? I seriously don't know what kind of idiotic drivel you spout to yourself on a constant basis, but you are something else. Terms given are many times higher than simply continuing, so we simply continue. That you somehow think we have sinned and need purging is quite comical, and honestly is a good tactic to allow us to continue with the "war." Don't preach to people about peace and righteousness and we are above you all as the protectors of a game land that quite honestly doesn't need it. And the only rank-n-file I see ever is from the one person who doesn't have a single original thought of his own, you. We have no army of lemmings being ordered around by some mystical Consone dictator. We are simply people that don't see any reason to stand down to someone just because they have a larger town in a ficticious game than we do. The high handed sanctamonious crap that issues from you and yours is about all I can stand anymore. -------------
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Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:12
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ohhhhh.... getting personnal now. But seriously, I would edit that post b4 Luna finds it ;) |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:13
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I have no inside information. What I say here is based on what I have gleaned from these forums. It seems to me there is a misunderstanding about why there is a war. This war is about breaking Consone. From what I can tell, that is the goal of the war and by extension would be the goal in ending it, therefore negotiating with Consone as a whole, with a Consone representative is contrary to the goal. From what I can see, as long as Consone survives, the war will continue. ------------- |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:17
Thanks for offering your hat dearRESt officer, but we don't polish shoes. |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:19
We never stated it will be shaking hands and happyness. We would like to have your terms in one worded form. Perhaps you have given us exact terms already, but either those might have been lost with leadership changes, or a bit vague... If you want, and if you and your ego feel happy about it, see it as us asking for terms. It would be nice, if you could mail those to Manannan, thus you wouldn't have to mail all those Consone leaders each for him/herself. Consone leadership constantly is in AC and forums, and talks to its members (yes, TD, that actually is possible!). I only recently heared talks about leaving Consone, if we ever agreed to a onesided surrender. So please leave that "that all so misleading leadership" stuff, it gets a bit annoying...  (And as you mentioned it... nCrow is in no war I know of... but I don't want to derail this thread any further...) |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:26
There's no confusion on the goal... that was clear from around day 3 or 4... What I don't get... why do you still continue? In various posts in here, your side poses about how much stronger they are, how much pop we might have lost, how much alliances dropped out of Consone... ...ehm... what was the goal of the war? Any concepts of not allowing diplomacy/trading etc. between alliances friendly to each other is ridiculous, and won't be accepted. We offer to talk about alternatives, but that seems not to fit into whatever heads steer this strange trove war... |
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:31
What on earth do you think is wrong with any of these posts that needs editing? On topic though, unless there's some backroom dealing I am completely ignorant of, it seems like this war is going to continue for some time. Consone is basically down to players able to fight and willing to continue for the foreseeable future. The view unconditional as absurd, because there's no reason they couldn't just keep fighting. Harmless?, on the other hand isn't willing to offer any kind of reasonable peace. From their perspective, they're winning, and they're used to their enemies being so frantic to to surrender they will agree to their terms, or just leaving the game entirely. So I guess they'll all just sit there killing eachothers men until the Coalition makes some stronger headway (Which it seems like would have happened by now, but I dunno.) or they start feeling the war weariness and losing participation (Which could be a while. The Coalition seems to be made of alliances that are very cohesive and active and/or really like fighting.) And then when one side does decide they need to bring this to a close, the fact that they've been burning diplomatic bridges and insulting each other all over these forums is going to make it all the more difficult. I guess my point is: New players, this is what we call "Catching up time". |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:41
Big words from someone 1K sqs away from me.
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Posted By: belargyle
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:42
It is not what 'you choose' that matters here, it is what we will accept. If you wish out of the war, you do not get to dictate how you will do this. Of course you can always offer, but that does not mean it will be allowed. The Coalition forces have given H? the authority to speak on all our behalf in these negotiations and they speak for us, as one. Thus IF, (I haven't heard them state Mananaan can't be an intermediary for individual alliances) - IF - H? chooses to only deal with the alliance leadership directly.. it is our right to do such.
A 'ceasefire' is not an option on the table.. that option passed in the early part of the war, of which The Coalition offered but Consone did not desire at that time, thus surrender is now the option. It is 'OK' to not wish to surrender but don't sit there and say you want 'peace' once more in the lands of Illy and NOT take what is offered you FOR peace. If you want out and want peace, then do what is necessary for both to happen, if not, take up the sword and shield and defend what is left.
Please, Please, PLEASE.. for the love of God, STOP with the 'bullied' garbage. You entered a war, you are being fought as one IN a war.. this is not bullying.. it is WAR. Exorbitant? HA! It could have been much more.. but something you might not understand is that there are 'consequences' to being in a war, and if you cannot win it, there penalties to pay to get out of it, and part of that includes insuring there isn't a small pause in the building up new armies for a quick new assault, in the near future.
Again, you don't get to dictate how you will surrender nor do you get to dictate how negotiations will proceed. This is between the Coalition and WE, and H? is our representative. If you wish peace and out of the war, you will deal in the manner prescribed, and if not.. we continue.
You have it all backwards.. We are a Coalition supporting each other, not just H. We have appointed H as our spokesmen alliance. Yet in this war, due to its size, it is easier and more beneficial to deal with each alliance separately. If we did it your way.. those alliances who already left Consone side or those currently might wish to leave, would not have been able to leave because the Consone core will not surrender (they did). It is a PR move on Consone's side to wish to do this as a group, instead of letting alliances leave the war as they feel the need (for whatever their own reasoning).
Yeah.. biggest bullies.. you see how we have forced people do our wishes, move where we wanted them, extorted funds from them so they could live where we let them.. You seem to forget that we are the same people who aided you alliance at it's inception, the same ones you enjoyed our friendship with, and helped you in your protection, worked with you to help keep others off your backs. Yeah - biggest bullies. You guys really need new rhetoric. However there will be no cease-fire (let's just all lay down our weapons and call it even). Additionally, if you don't wish to surrender then you, by your own admission, have no desire for peace but in fact only desire WAR. Well sir, we will bring you what you so desire.
Then stop acting like children, stop whining, and do what is necessary for the peace you CLAIM to want but wont move from your position. Be the 'so called' bigger man and if you wish to end this, do so! |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:44
From what I was told at the outset, destruction of Consone is not a goal. It may happen sua sponte, but it is not a goal of the Coalition. As long as 1 party is at war, former Consone alliances will be required to severe NAP/Confeds to ensure no "meddling" among known allies.
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 17:45
That means, you're 1k squares away from her, too, if I'm correct? And words have to be big to reach across so much distance, and that doesn't make them less true... |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:05
Would like to have seen this option... and especially the reasons why it passed! First notice I got was sieges at the doorssteps and the offer for surrender...
All we did is offer talks, for us to know what we had to do for getting peace... I can't recall specific terms, besides the cancelling of diplomacy, which we can't accept.
Then let us negotiate as one... it can't be too difficult!
We actually didn't even build up for a first assault...
Belargyle... that was an offer... You have H?, we chose Manannan, what problem do you have with that?
Peacetalks of Consone with RES (for example) were denied, with reference to H? being spokesman... why don't we get same right? Talk with Manannan, tell him, what you want from each alliance, and he'll send it round... should be less work...
I thoght we offered talks... doesn't sound very aggressive to me... And I'd like to finish with a famous quote, which should be apprechiated by everyone on here:
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:07
Then please give us the chance to talk as one (although this might only be the rest of former Consone). I can't really grasp the logic behind denying that then, if that wasn't the goal... /me is totally confused now, and needs some rest |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:16
LOL ------------- |
Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:23
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Perhaps Consone should finally elect a Leader for their organisation, what would H's veiw be on that and would they then talk with that 'leader' on behalf of Consone as a whole? Just an idea. |
Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:24
WE have lost more pop due to reasons other than being razed.
ah forget the above ..i didnt see your reply under that post...hell I still wont delete my reply..so as to let everyone know all the reasons why WE lost so much pop...just in case theyre interested ------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:29
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Hora-- You keep talking about what you will allow and what is acceptable to you. You still don't get it. What is acceptable to you is irrelevant. It is what is acceptable to The Coalition that is relevant here. If Consone honestly think it is winning this war, then keep thinking it. And stick to this position. We'll revisit this subject in another month or two. |
Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:32
------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: Tan Las
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:33
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Go Hora! Go Hora! Fact is, H? don't want peace - if they did then; a) the appointment of a single point of contact from Consone wouldn't be an issue to whine about, b) the terms offered wouldn't be akin to "If you don't pay me £1M, I'm going to steal your £50k car" If they really wanted peace, then these obstacles would just vanish. Illy is not a world designed for quick wars - this WILL drag on slowly. I think the repetition of "you ain't seen nothing yet" is just a ploy to try and get people to throw the towel in. Consone and Coalition players will be stuck in a mire of war, while other non-aligned players will be busy stamping their authority on the Broken Lands. I'm just Rank'n'File Consone, and for the record, I back our leadership freely and happily. Peace, if peace comes would be great - but not at any price....
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:43
You can all act together by each of you going to your H? embassies and accepting the terms given to each of you. Perhaps that might show that Consone is finally "singing together in 1 voice" as implied by its nom d'guerre.
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Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:47
Hmmm...somehow i get the impression...you had no choice in this ..no matter what you or the coalition thinks. ------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: Jack Sheridan
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 18:52
One sided negotiations, doesn't sound terribly diplomatic to me.  |
Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:24
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We love this war, so really keep up the lousy fighting :D and...
You do understand this counts right? razing is the slowest form to win, making people quit, leave alliances or such is the point. -------------
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Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:25
IT WONT BE NEGOTIATIONS!! how hard and how many times do people need to tell you guys this? Its demands for your surrender, DEMANDS, you understand this word? -------------
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Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:26
I dont think so abstractdream. The war was started to destroy Invictus. The alliances in Consone came forward in support of Invictus, something H did not anticipate. If you think that there would have been no H-Invictus war if not for the formation of consone, you do not understand H. Destroying the second alliance is their way of staying as the first alliance. It is as simple as that. And not a very difficult task - considering the number of self proclaimed war gamers ever ready to pile upon the underdog.
lol |
Posted By: Gman!
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:31
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by the sounds of things H? an Co. just want to bully the server, they felt freightened by Consone as a group and decided to declaire war... found out that they couldnt finish the job on there own so drafted in a few others to help out.. i'd like to know... did H? bully the likes of Tcol, TVM and Cok into helping them?? or was it just a case of "jumping on the band waggon" like lost sheep.. theres no other reason for them to of joined in from what i can see... cant wait to see these bullys in BL #LevelPlayingField |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:43
Before you joined the war, Kumo must have informed you that soup was already loosing cities to coal 7:1? The very words I'd expect from a courageous wargamer like you Rorgash! Exemplary courage. You should get a hat from RES for this! |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:44
Please spare us the utter drivel. H? has had nothing but very good relations with the Crow alliances while they were second to us and maintained those relations as they surpassed us in size. This isn't about #1 trying to take out #2. It is about us standing up to an attempt bully through numbers. VIC thought it could round up enough numbers to make it impossible for anyone to stand up their bullying and massively miscalculated. Now they and their cronies pay the price. |
Posted By: Belthazor
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:45
Perhaps you don't get a very simple fact. We respect our confeds. We value them as brothers. We fight to help them in the very same way they would fight to help us. So don't go saying we were bullied to fight or we jumped on the bandwagon. For some odd reason, we tend to respect our diplomatic relations. Weird, I know. ------------- We work in the Dark to serve the Light |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:45
I don't even know who you are, but obviously you don't know much about this game, so why don't you educate yourself and then post here after becoming a little more knowledgeable (and literate). |
Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:49
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The word "bully" is thrown around a lot, I somewhat suspect that all these players (not just in this war but in every war where they called their winning attackers bullies) would in turn "bully" the "bullies" if given the chance. Might as well make the word bully a simile to Militarily Superior opponent. ------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 19:50
I didn't say you had, I said I hope you don't in response to you saying "the next couple months will show a much, much higher city loss ratio.". Furthermore, if you have no intent on sieging them out of the game, why couldn't the war go on indefinitely? It just seems like some of your statements contradict what you're saying, but maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. ------------- |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:02
Actually they are not. Most wars that actually ended somewhere, ended with someone SURRENDERING and then, not by magic as you seem to think, PEACE CAME. Certainly peace was more in the terms of the side that won, than the side that lost, but such is the way life is and you cannot have everything. Historical examples are aplenty in every book should anyone wish confirmation.
Then what did you appoint someone to represent you for peace talks if you are declining the most major factor of peace in any kind of warfare thoughout the history .?. This is like Xerxes sending an emissary to Alexander the Great seeking peace, but writting in the message "Alexander, you are winning this war, but I will be gracious and let you go from my lands in one piece. Go now and let us have peace, but I am not surrendering ! You lost warriors, time and money to get these victories and it is high time for you to go home empty handed and leave me be. " In a word: Ludicrous. Read any history book ... there is no war that ended in the Consone utopic way were the winning side simply packed up and left with no terms and no demands imposed upon the losing side. And it never happened because there is just no logic in doing so. P.S. For anyone saying that "the cost is high" or the demands are unreasonable I would like to remember everyone that the current COST of the equipment needed to build a knight (not to mention the time) with the lowest Centrum prices is atm is around 5800 gold PER UNIT. Now consider the number of troops expended in this war and their cost alone and re-think what is "reasonable" with that added fact. |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:03
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Here's what we have learned in this thread: Consone doesn't like the terms offered. Consone thinks they will get better terms through: 1) Whining 2) Lying 3) Insulting Coalition says there will be no negotiation of terms offered. The war continues.
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Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:06
That's true. I did contradict myself. I guess, in my experience, people generally will not continue indefinitely in alliances or alliances will not continue indefinitely or leadership teams will not continue indefinitely if they suffer significant attrition... |
Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:08
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this you Ander? http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Player/Towns/39004 or you too afraid to use your real name on the forum? -------------
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Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:09
I deduce from what I see. When I joined the game, H was the first alliance and Valar second. Last october you took out Valar. Then Invictus was the second alliance until the current war started this october. If crows were ever second, I didn't know. (perhaps it was a time before I joined the game. And hopefully your good relations with them will continue after you have destroyed Invictus too - if it happens that is) As for the bullying point, I totally agree with you Kumo. Invictus was bullying the server by breaking H supported sieges on Absa. Absa was bullying by helping our allies to remove a hostile camp 2 squares from their city. No need to argue those points again, I totally agree with you! No sarcasm, no pun, nothing intended!  |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:10
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Ahh my poor Derazin, you may not have realized this is not real life but a game. While I really have absolutely nothing to lose but some time invested into my towns, those people throughout history had no other choice. That being said, my current choice is this: Submit to your demands, or continue on as we have. One is extremely costly both in terms of game time and quite honestly fun, the other not so much. I will continue on as I have so that I do not have to let you tell me who I can be friends with or who I can decide to help in the game until such time that you destroy me. It has been made apparent that a nice side effect of your gameplay is to force people to quit playing a game they enjoy, and to be told what to do with my towns and my time is just not that fun. So keep racking up your war costs and thinking you are shiny white knights here to save the masses from the sinners here in Consone. I will keep the friendly company that I have here until you force me from doing so. -------------
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Posted By: bansisdead
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:16
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Can I have a hat from RES please?
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/124253" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:19
You can have my girl. Don't touch my hat. http://www.myspace.com/lylelovett/music/songs/don-t-touch-my-hat-album-version-13855
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Posted By: bansisdead
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:28
Consone you better let go You can't hold on to What belongs to me And don't belong to you I caught you looking With your roving eye So Mister Consone you don't have to act So surprised If it's her you want I don't care about that You can have my girl But don't touch my hat ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/124253" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:35
how do you play such a pivotal role in what is discussed between consone and the coalition in terms of peace when your input in this war is so insignificant, in terms of who you are actually at war with?
------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:49
Indeed. RES is nothing at all. Just ignore those RES armies. They mean nothing. Just insignificant gnats to the mighty Consone.
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Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:51
And to think that I actually said "and if someone points out that this is a game" and answered that silly argument before someone pop-up and said it.
Well if this is a game and you do not care about the outcome, you do not care about peace either or even winning or losing, eh .?. And yes, there were ALWAYS choices in history. ALWAYS. It is just that more ofthen than not people do the wrong choice thinking that there will be no retribution (do you think I mentioned Xerxes by accident ? ) ...
Well, this sounds neat and I applaud your choice, but the only question is that if you have already made that choice, why appoint someone to negotiate for peace in the first place .?. You see the contradiction, don't you .?.
If you are trying to play the martyr and victim you are doing a louzy job of it, really. We all have friendly company in the game, worry not, and please for crying out loud DECIDE within Consone if you are losing people because of the war or not because Scaramouche some posts back said THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you said in his effort to dampen down the fact that opperationally the Coalition is winning by saying this :
Hora went a step further saying :
For crying out loud decide which version of the reality you want to propagate, because this is really laughable, ok .?. You cannot both claim that you are not losing any players due to the war, that you are in fact growing AND that the Coalition is a reason that people leave the game. Those three things are mutually exclusive, pick one and promote for once a single idea instead of sprouting all sorts of theories of what reality is without ANY FACTS to support ANY of your allegations. Consistency it is called ... can you aquire it .?. |
Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 20:56
You are correct - we are in no rush for peace - why would we when we enjoy war and are winning? The folk who are losing and want out need to surrender and accept terms rather than trying to dictate to the people who are winning. Your (b) is rubbish. Reality is more akin to "Pay us ~1 month's worth of your alliance production of gold/goods and sacrifice a few cities or face having your entire production being spent on war for much longer and lose many more cities" ------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:00
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People leaving the game and yet growing is not mutually exclusive nor a falsity, nor is the fact that the Coalition is the reason why. I have said nothing at all to dampen down the fact that the Coalition is winning, and I don't assume to speak for the other branches or Consone or even EE itself. I have personally made the choice I have made. If EE were to make a peace at this point, I would respectfully decline and leave them to continue on as I am. I do not like what you all represent and what you demand. Nothing hard to understand there.
And I would really like to know what theories I have posted without factual evidence. I have merely stated what I have read and what you have all stated, and honestly just my opinion about it. -------------
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Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:05
------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:07
This is my earlier point about leaders fighting to the death. Instead of considering what is best for your _team_, you only care about your own pride. This is what all Consone members need to understand - the leaders only care about their own pride and NOT about the larger needs of their membership. Bravado is not a substitute for leadership. There is no glory in death. Consone: What are your strategic goals for this war? Are you making progress to those goals?
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Posted By: Elmindra
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:08
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How in any way do you get the idea that I am a leader in Consone at all? One of the "rank-n-file" as you call us.
Regardless, I do believe I am done here. Beating my head against a wall would be more entertaining. -------------
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Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:15
That would indeed be a strange letter for him to write, especially considering that Alexander was invading with a comparatively tiny army and Darius III(I'm assuming that's who you meant, you mixed up either your Persians or your Greeks) had the strength of an empire. Conventional wisdom was that Alexander was going to get his ass kicked. His correspondence was historically something like "Meet me here and we'll fight. P.S.: I killed all those wounded guys you left here." See, Darius acted like kind of a jerk, because he was certain he would win. Take from that whatever conclusion you want. And historically, most wars have ended with some sort of mutually accepted terms, It's just that the ones that don't are usually pretty memorable.
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:16
If you choose to be destroyed rather than surrender then don't complain when we oblige you. ------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:21
Point 1: (in fear of repeating myself) There is a function called AC, even in Consone alliances... people come there to talk to each other... even leadership can go there... Recent talk is, that most players would leave us IF we surrender at this point. (Think I remember about posting that somewhere earlier) Point 2: Our strategic goal atm is not loosing, and we damn well make progress everyday we still live as a confederation. If we take out some H?, DLord, or whatever other alliances towns on the way, that's a fine extra
(simple as that, I hope that's simple enough...) |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:26
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This thread is about reopening talks... If you want us to stop fighting (or say "Yes, you've won!", if you like), give us conditions we can accept, else we try to do a decent show in defending for the next two years... 1 month productivity sounds nice for a start (I saw that somewhere above...ah yes, by KP), and added up for whole Consone would result in a huge load of resources/money/etc... But leave us as an entity... that's the point of the discussion...
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:29
What "input" do you think I have? RES has earned some respect from the Coalition. The Coalition has requested RES conditions for peace with WE for incorporation into larger terms of surrender. That is the extent of RES "input" outside of actual game combat which, as you know, has been quite substantial. As to Consone surrender terms, I speak from experience. I have been on the other side of conflict of many of the coalition alliances - H?, Curse, Dlords. I have also paid close attention to their other conflicts. I understand them as well as anyone on the outside can, imo. Consone can learn from my experience or continue to ignore it. But I know this, the Coalition will not negotiate. There is no magic intermediary that can change that. There are no magic words to be said that will change that. This is not like buying a used car where you dicker over the price - the seller wants your cash and the buyer wants a car. Here, the Coalition is content with the status quo - launching armies, strafing cities, sieging cities. Consone wants to change the status quo - stopping the forgoing actions. The Coalition will alter the status quo for the price presented and not a penny less. You will actually disappoint the Coalition if you accept the deal - this is how weak the position of Consone is. It also shows the "mercy" of the Coalition - giving up a lot of fun for themselves in order to allow others to better enjoy Illy. And this belies any claims that the Coalition are just being bullies. Bullies wouldn't make that concession. Again, I say this from experience with Coalition leaders as well as 30 years of professional experience in conflict resolution. This is why I have "input."
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Posted By: Beecks
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:34
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The problem with these threads is that Consone has no leverage to force the Coalition to amend its requirement that each alliance seek peace separately. The only argument that Consone seems to have is that if the Coalition doesn't accept Consone's post-war existence then the war will continue indefinitely. Given our success so far I don't see that as a negative. VICX and Roads have already dropped out, WE has been decimated and Valar can't even muster up the troops to defend their own members. Time is decidedly on the Coalition's side. "You better deal with Consone as a whole or else we're going to keep letting you raze our cities" doesn't have much bite to it. |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:36
That is accomplished by accepting terms of surrender. Hora, have you gone to you H? embassy and requested terms? Just for VIC, not everyone. And I suggest that VALAR, EE, AA, and WE (did I overlook anyone?) do the same, post haste. Then accept those terms. Immediately. And Consone will have achieved its strategic goals for this war. Now, don't come back and complain that the terms are too onerous and should be changed - they will not change.
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Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:40
Now I dont want to seem.... pick nicking snippets of conversation..but surely this about sums up that no matter how consone approach possible peace/surrender talks...your saying there is NO negotiation?
If this is the case.... I waste no more words on this topic. ------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:53
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Well, tried my best... Let's go into forum silence, scaramouche. They want to keep on fighting? They shall do... if they only would stop about us not wanting peace Last think I wanted to sa........... ...... .... .. .. . . .
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:54
People negotiate to get something they want from the other fella. What does Consone have that the Coalition wants or needs?
I negotiate for a living in RL - people pay me actual money for this. I honestly can see nothing that Consone has to offer in a negotiation. So, please, what does Consone put on the table for the Coalition? |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:55
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Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:55
Wow. TD has been paying attention this whole time! Eerily accurate description... Maybe he isn't "all hat, no cattle"? ;) |
Posted By: Grego
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 21:55
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Forget it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMv9kjFp1gk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMv9kjFp1gk |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2013 at 22:00
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