Trade hub development: Where to send merchants?
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Trade Chat
Forum Description: Discuss harvesting, crafting and trade on Elgea here.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4549
Printed Date: 16 Apr 2022 at 19:37
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Topic: Trade hub development: Where to send merchants?
Posted By: NAAM Spokesman
Subject: Trade hub development: Where to send merchants?
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 11:30
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Regional faction hub development program: Where to send your merchants? Greetings Illyriad, finding the right trade hubs is largely a non-transparent coordination problem. This joint program supported by various alliances and sponsored by the http://republic.monsterforum.net/t97-welcome-to-the-illyriad-trade-union" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Union and the http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/nonaligned-alliance-movement_topic4273.html" rel="nofollow - Non-Aligned Alliance Movement is created to solve this coordination problem. Some (the first one was central hub) forum posts have demonstrated that telling the people where to send their settlers, works to increase trade activities in certain hubs. I believe we need more regional hubs, so players can engage in long distant trade or stay in their region, as they desire. Since the map and the factions are confusing for some players, I thought it would be nice to collect all such incentives in this post and create a map for better orientation. The idea is to eventually add other trade hubs later (for example there might be hubs missing in the north).
Where to send your merchants?
Map Legend: ITC: Illyriad Trade Council LAN: Lannigolds CoI: Outpost of the Council of Illyriad List of trading hubs/factions/forum topic: 1. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/0/0/10" rel="nofollow - Centrum / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/1" rel="nofollow - Council of Illyria / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/centrum_topic4307.html" rel="nofollow - Centrum 2. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/428/-214/10" rel="nofollow - Bellingsy / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/65" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Council / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html" rel="nofollow - Creation of Trade Alliance 3. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/244/28/10" rel="nofollow - Mons Equi / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/65" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Council / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html" rel="nofollow - Creation of Trade Alliance 4. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/-337/253/10" rel="nofollow - Malehurst / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/65" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Council / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html" rel="nofollow - Creation of Trade Alliance 5. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/428/-214/10" rel="nofollow - Shelton / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/65" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Council / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html" rel="nofollow - Creation of Trade Alliance 6. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/271/392/10" rel="nofollow - Persiflage / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/65" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Council / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html" rel="nofollow - Creation of Trade Alliance 7. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/-387/-322/10" rel="nofollow - Tudeyll / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/79" rel="nofollow - Turyns / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/tudeyll-and-santellya_topic4441.html" rel="nofollow - Tudeyll 8. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/635/-534/10" rel="nofollow - Humayan / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/41" rel="nofollow - Raja Metu / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/central-zanpur-trade-hub_topic4170.html" rel="nofollow - Central Zanpur Trade Hub 9. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/-563/-754/10" rel="nofollow - Bepima / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/65" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Council / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html" rel="nofollow - Creation of Trade Alliance 10. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/-775/235/10" rel="nofollow - Hope / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/65" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Council / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html" rel="nofollow - Creation of Trade Alliance 11. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/846/229/10" rel="nofollow - Zhuhai / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/56" rel="nofollow - Wen Kun Dynasty / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-zhuhai-winter-solistice-festivities_topic4523.html" rel="nofollow - Zhuhai Winter Solistive Festivities 12. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/905/-269/10" rel="nofollow - Qal Mar / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/65" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Council / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html" rel="nofollow - Creation of Trade Alliance 13. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/445/-908/10" rel="nofollow - Freeport / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/65" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Council / http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html" rel="nofollow - Creation of Trade Alliance 14. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/-302/-763" rel="nofollow - Port Tal / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/28" rel="nofollow - Kingdom of Tal 15. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/544/466" rel="nofollow - The Barracks / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/63" rel="nofollow - Bayne's Irregulars 16. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/136/857" rel="nofollow - Falkenburg / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/36" rel="nofollow - Northmen 17. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/36" rel="nofollow - Tantark / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/8" rel="nofollow - Tantarkim |
Replies:
Posted By: NAAM Spokesman
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 11:31
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Sponsored by the http://republic.monsterforum.net/t97-welcome-to-the-illyriad-trade-union" rel="nofollow - Illyriad Trade Union
http://republic.monsterforum.net/t146-how-can-i-join-as-a-player-union-member" rel="nofollow - Join the Illyriad Trade Union to increase your sales, personalise your sales activities and make better deals when you feel you have not enough merchants available! |
Posted By: NAAM Spokesman
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 11:33
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Since players and alliances might consider to define main (alliance) trade hubs and plan a little ahead concerning the faction relations, I will share another map with you. (Currently it is not possible to influence faction relations. But there are plans to change that, I believe). The below map shows the positive (>+10) and negative (<-10) faction relations. That is currently the only indication we have for such planning and the devs stated they will be relevant. Faction relationship map:
Map Legend: Faction relations below -10 (red line) and above +10 (green line) (no matter if dotted – larger distance – or drawn through) Yellow factions do not allow all races access for trade ITC: Illyriad Trade Council LAN: Lannigolds CoI: Outpost of the Council of Illyriad (All relations of ITC and LAN omitted) In case you find any errors, please let us know!!! |
Posted By: NAAM Spokesman
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 11:34
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Sponsored by the http://republic.monsterforum.net/t562-non-aligned-alliance-movement-naam" rel="nofollow - Non-Aligned Alliance Movement (NAAM)
We are a peaceful movement of small and larger alliance trying to stop large alliances from bullying us and others. If you feel you need help against bullies, want to aid against them, would like to join such a neutral alliance movement, have any questions or just want more information, check out http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/nonaligned-alliance-movement_topic4273.html" rel="nofollow - this link . |
Posted By: NAAM Spokesman
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 11:35
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Note: If we/the community wants to add further hubs to this map and the hub development program (or remove some), feel free to start a forum incentive (and do not give me a cheap threat and expect being added;) and/or post suggestions here. We will only add trade hubs that can be accessed by all races, if the hub relations do not confront the current hub development program and if there is a regional requirement to add hubs (therefore they must not be too close to the other hubs). Feel free to contact Janosch and Naxos in advance to check.
Maybe we need to add?
-838|-39 in The Western Realms Dunthaslea
544|466 in Windlost The Barracks
-302|-763 in Tallimar Port Tal
See: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/call-to-all-alliances_topic4229.html Thank you for your time |
Posted By: tallica
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 12:40
/me notices Kingdom of Tal for the first time /me considers taking the throne... ------------- 
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NAAM Spokesman wrote:
Posted By: Llyr
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 14:36
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Centrum is currently the only hub worth using for actual buying and selling. Your closest local hub is useful for storage (infinite capacity and theft-proof), but will generally be useless for actual trading. That situation won't change until players learn that to develop other hubs for trading, they need to offer BETTER prices than Centrum. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/187558" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 15:31
| Port Tal has gotten some good regional traction... |
Posted By: Yeesha D'ni
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 17:19
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@ Lyrr: I strongly disagree. Taomist / Laoshins trade hub "Zhuhai" is well developped with a really wide variety of goods, at, what is important: in most cases competive prices (price niveau equal or less to Centrum). And more then 20 traders (that I know of), who are residents there. For sure Centrum is and might be for a long time the pricegiver and most trades use to happen there. But if you decide to repeat that mantra: only Centrum is good for trades, it will be like that forever. We decided (indepentently from TOR and NAAM incentives, which I am willing to support as well), to envive a faction hub, which is work at the beginning, but worth it. Work, as you constantly supply a far hub, where sales are sometimes not as fast as in Centrum, but at a steady and remarkable volume. Another aspect: there is only a certain sell / buy volume at Centrum. At other hubs you might spare time (and money) instead of waiting to sell things at Centrum. We developped from just one seller with exorbitant prices at the beginning, to a well working trade hub, where you can get nearly everything near - term. The problem, which I see is, that too less people are willing to think about:
Nice to see, that trading gets a new (since trade V2) sensible game path. Nice to see player driven initiatives like incentives (maybe tournaments and player made quests later). Nice to see trade and crafting Allies being founded. Nice to see trades getting something interactive and social (besides of all possible grinding in Illyriad), which is connecting people. What i rely on is not that automatically (kind of grinding) adjusting prices and accepting orders old school trade (from people, which names you know, but never had contact), but a more intelligent and meaningful trade path (with eg. trade relations and treatys and what really matters: direct player interaction.) Keep it up! PS: as I wrote in the first Zhuhai thread : ( http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/zhuhai-faction-hub-a-project-to-shape-the-market_topic4237.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/zhuhai-faction-hub-a-project-to-shape-the-market_topic4237.html ) Possible benefits of a decentralized market :
Last not least and offtopic: What is trade without advertisement? Here you go.... Hope to see lots of you.... http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-zhuhai-winter-solistice-festivities_topic4523.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-zhuhai-winter-solistice-festivities_topic4523.html |
, yes, this might take time....Posted By: Daufer
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 18:01
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At this point, as long as private city-to-city trade remains viable, regional trade will be a non starter. As I write this let's say I need basic swords. There are currently 41 different sellers available to me, and over 60k swords on sale for prices I would consider paying. More than 50k of those are on the market in Centrum. Twelve of the 41 sellers are using the market at Centrum. There are nine sellers closer to me than Centrum but many of those are charging higher prices, so there is little incentive for me to buy from them. I think that until trade distances are sharply limited (I believe at some point the devs were going to limit city to city trading to 100 square radius, but I could be mistaken) there won't be any economical reason to use a hub. People buy for the price factor balanced by the convenience factor, meaning that the cheapest offer within the range I'm willing to travel. Even if trading distance becomes limited, Centrum still has such a foothold that for economic reasons it will be the primary hub. If most players decide to only use their one free traders they will want to send him to the place where most other players are trading. Centrum is the ideal choice with its central location and heavy traffic. The best argument for regional hubs that I can see is for internal trade within alliances that have a strong regional focus. I will use the Dark Star Dominion as an example since I am their neighbor and I can see some of the hubs they use: Bandarius = 12 basic res, 5 advanced res, 34 crafting material Ordu Kush = 0 basic res, 0 advanced res, 2 crafting material Shingeng = 5 basic res, 3 advanced res, 7 crafting material Urukonium = 12 basic res, 1 advanced res, 15 crafting material Obviously there is some trade in the Mal Motsha/Keshalia region. There are about 96 buy/sell orders combined. 58 of those are for gathered crafting materials. Now compare this to Centrum: Centrum = 69 basic res, 599 advanced res, 947 crafting material 1,615 different offers, nearly a thousand of them for materials that are not available to every city. There is no economic reason for me not to use Centrum. It has everything I want, prices are mostly reasonable, and if I keep caravans waiting there I can have my merchandise delivered within 18 hours. However, if trade distance were limited and I wanted to ship res to a member of my own alliance who for some unfathomable reason had no cities in western Keshalia, I would want a trader in at least one regional hub. The same is true if I wanted to keep my gold and production in house, so to speak. It wouldn't make sense to put special deals up for my allies in Centrum, where someone else will probably snap it up first, but if we both have a trader in a sleepy regional hub there is much less chance of an outsider grabbing the deal before my friends do.
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Posted By: Pellinell
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 18:34
I currently do quite a bit of business at Laresh. Which is much closer than centrum. So while Centrum may indeed be used by more people it is not the only one worth using 
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Posted By: EvilKatia
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 19:20
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I agree with Pellinell for me its Shelton sending all my vans constantly to Centrum would be long and painful. my trader at centrum give me an idea of prices range mostly. By the way very good mpa there its clear to see wich hubs have in some activity and wich dont I will be sure to use it to see where to send traders in the future :) ------------- Kat 'They have to always turn a forum post into a badly written book that gives a headache and takes your iq points' - AO |
Posted By: Cerex Flikex
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 20:00
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Turyin Trade Hub for the Elves! ;) ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/149824" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 20:23
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I'll be honest about the hubs..i dont know nothing about them..its a part of the game i havent spent the time or energy to explore this part of the game yet...so my question is...considering the whole concept is still in its beginners stages will it take over from the standard markets?
bearing in mind the difficulty in people trying to find a busy hub.will this create hubs that are really active and others that will just become ghost hubs?
and cerex..why is that particular hub good for elves? ------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: HendelTheDwarf
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 20:29
Couldn't agree more. I'm seeing quite a lot of activity in other hubs. Caer Morock has really taken off for me - Dunthaslea are Humayan not quite as good, but fairly steady. The only disappointment so far has been Bepima. Getting my next trader ready to send off to Zhuhai for the solstice festivities!
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 20:36
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Scar - Turyin is friendly to Elves per the Faction Summary on it. It is also near a cluster of CF's cities. :) I think the hubs are beyond the beginner phase now. I think they will nearly eliminate "standard market" in time. As more players develop traders more hubs will become active. If you use trading at all, you should definitely get at least 3 traders deployed to hubs as follows: 1 Trader to Centrum since this is the largest market in Illy with the most goods available of all types, imo; 1 Trader to hub nearest your cluster of cities; and, 1 Trader to a central hub used by your alliance for intra-alliances transfers (meaning everyone in the alliance stations a trader at that hub - more geographically diverse alliances will likely use several hubs for this purpose). An advantage to hubs is that the seller does not tie up his own vans for shipping goods. Also, taxes paid are lower than the standard market.
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Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 20:43
oh yes..i forgot about the faction side of things and your more thn likely right about taking over the standard market..in time..but there will always be a need for the standard market for the new ppl before they meet the requirements to engage in the hubs.
but i see what you mean. thanks ------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: Llyr
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 22:05
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I'm giving Turyin a try, so I'll see what happens there. But I'm mostly engaged in buying rare items for crafting, so price is the only factor for me. Travel distance is irrelevant. And Turyin is actually farther for me than Centrum, so prices there would have to be less than Centrum to interest me. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/187558" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Hadus
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 23:37
Except that if you send a trader to an herb/mineral starved area, some bigger players might be willing to spend extra gold for the convenience of proximity. This is how local hubs can be useful. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/157483" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2012 at 10:27
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Briiliant thread guys Superbly done
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Also conrgats to Naam Spokesman and also Yeesha D'ni for referencing there respective trade proposals and projects to the lore of the game!Posted By: NAAM Spokesman
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2012 at 19:28
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Approach to subsume:
With
players not using markets it should be possible to make most profit! :) We believe,
in the longer run more and more people will be interested in a more
decentralised trade network. Probably we can define three different kinds of
hub/trade strategies (the alliance hub might be strategy/hub number four). Local (the closest hub to
your city/capital):
-caravans
aren't ages away from home to deliver goods -from
monopoly to oligopol as a more vivid marketform (competition instead of
accepting Centrum hub as a pricemaker for everything) -you
make market occurence more attractive for smaller players, as they can join the
market developments without having own traders -shaping
plurality in giving a local market an individual charakter (local products
might be cheaper then in far away western border states and vice versa). In
other words: regional appearance of goods would get more important You
want to store stuff and sell primary resources. But it can be worth selling
other things as well for players that do not care about having a well-developed
trade structure and newbs. For that reasons I do not think there will be many
hubs that will be completely dead. Eventually these hubs even allow the largest
profit. Regional (the hubs proposed here):
They should offer much more activity so it makes sense to coordinate (that is
why we started this thread and make the map).
-caravans
aren't ages away from home to deliver goods -from
monopoly to oligopol […] -social
platform in terms of allycrossing cooperation (what I wish, we would have much
more) -shaping
plurality […] -being
well prepared for coming updates like market visibility -being
the base of possible future trade tournamants and social interaction And some
of us do hope to be able to make a higher profit in a more decentralised market
and sell more goods (when I offer my stuff in Centrum, it does not sell too
well or not at all). Finally,
having such a coordinated marketplace will allow players to jump between various
markets which might not serve to develop the market (in that sense) but drives
demand (and will therefore help to develop the market ;) And Centrum:
For
sure Centrum is and might be for a long time the pricegiver and most trades use
to happen there. And The_Dude
also has some points: Increasing
number of traders Lower
taxes The
possibility of alliance specific trade strategies (see the second map) And
thanks Ossian and EvilKatia. Main idea of the map was to make things
more transparent and easier to manage :) Trade hubs mentioned:
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Posted By: Loud Whispers
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 00:31
| I can vie with Port Tal. Anyone know a trade hub with loads of Dwarves around it? |
Posted By: NAAM Spokesman
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 15:25
As Turyin does not allow trade to all races, we think we should potentially only add Port Tal of the suggested trade hubs to the map? We will send a trader to evaluate the spot. However, it would be nice to see a forum post similar to those: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-zhuhai-winter-solistice-festivities_topic4523.html http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/trade-Event-creation-of-trade-alliance_topic4536.html Otherwise we might assume noone is really interested in Port Tal. :) |
Posted By: Silverleaf
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 00:24
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The current tax system is the biggest hindrance to the growth of any of the hubs - with such a ridiculous system that penalizes competition and hinders the trade - it is no wonder that majority of people prefer to do business out side hubs - and i dont see this changing much until a reasonable tax system is put in to place
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Posted By: Cerex Flikex
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 05:09
This does not make sense. You've listed Tudeyll on your map, which is the faction Turyns. The other hub I mentioned is Turyin, of the same faction. I think both are good hubs to use really. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/79" rel="nofollow - http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/79
Personally, the only reason for my preference for Turyin Hub, is that it's a bit closer to me than the other.
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/149824" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: NAAM Spokesman
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 13:35
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Thanks for pointing that out. My mistake. Based on this proposal: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/tudeyll-and-santellya_topic4441.html ...we have decided to add Tudeyll but not to add Santellya. The faction Illians (Santellya) does not allow access to all races. For Tudeyll that is not a problem.
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Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2013 at 22:56
| I don't know what your criteria are for adding it to your list or not, but Port Tal is used more than any other hub in the far South (not that any of them are heavily used)... |
Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2013 at 23:45
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I think there is some kind of market discrimination going on here. The Barracks (544|466 in Windlost) have been active for quite some time and is supported by the major alliances in Tamarin and Windlost (nCrow, Semper ad Meliora, Alizés, Relic and others). Is there some Laoshin-bias behind this exclusion? - M. ------------- 
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2013 at 00:33
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All we've got in the northeast is Brascan seed, Meagh. Move along, nothing to see here. |
Posted By: Ketla Truttensis
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 02:13
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Probably, as with all things (in this *game*), time will prove to be the greatest medicine. However, with respect to the comment about the tax system, I have a question: Is anyone actually LIMITED by what they can afford? I use the market to find the best bargain, though when I have sold I have adopted *realistic* policies rather than simply going with the slack economics of the game (i.e the more items I offer, the lower the unit price). But I don't NEED to. Whenever I have have full storage I just up my taxes to 80% or so and rake it in. Its not like my population rebels - all they do is produce less, which is irrelevant if my warehouses are full anyway. Solutions are to either introduce extra disincentives to such ludicrous taxation policies (even speaking as a tax-and-spend liberal elf) - e.g. progressive (regressive?) lowering of building levels - simulation of unrest? - or alter the multiplier in the tax formula. I would love to imagine a world in which my local trade hub is a thriving market with different prices from those at Centrum (reflecting, perhaps, locally prevalent items). One day, I am sure (trusting in the long-term behaviour of Illyriad), this will be fact. Until then... A thought: let caravans and traders incur costs (financial, not just temporal) the further they are from home. Thus, keeping caravans at a hub costs, and the further their 'home' city is from the hub, the greater the cost. In real world terms it makes some sense: you are still paying them, and the cost of living at a hub is probably greater than at home, especially if that hub is Centrum (more caravans = greater transient population = higher demand for accommodation/resources = higher costs). This would at least tend to make more exotic items more expensive.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 03:33
Why would that be desirable? If you want people to trade more, then the items need to be less expensive, not more expensive. Besides, the most exotic items already have ludicrous prices. Crafted weapons and armors sell for far above their amortized advantage*. While there might be situations where that makes sense, I think the prices are established by big players who draw large amounts of free gold from their cities. This drives down the transaction volume. I've been quite interested in the way this affects rare resources prices. Realistic pricing would incorporate some basic economic factors like rarity, troop cost to obtain (relevant with anatomies), time cost of harvesting, and most importantly the ultimate utility of the finished product(s). There is also a huge amount of speculation in the rare resource market. Players park armies on resources they never harvest (which diminishes supply), but other players have large stockpiles of rare resources. It seems to me that crafting is so slow--even with workshop specialization--that the number of players crafting to sell items is dwarfed by the present stockpiles of rare resources. The only resources that seem truly constrained are elemental salts (although I admit that I have looked hard and never once seen a gharial). Theoretically this should drive down the prices of some of the input resources, but people seem content to just let the unrealistic sell orders sit in the trade hub for months untouched. I've been toying with the idea of an equipment auction, but I'm concerned that small and midsize bidders would get completely swamped by large players with huge piles of available gold. I don't see a fair way around that, either--if you're not taking the highest bidder in an auction, then you're not really running a legitimate trading floor. There is also an issue of the time to modify trade orders, although an auction might be a good way to make that research line more relevant. Finally, the current system of posting taxes with a sell order, instead of on a transaction, is a bit difficult. The gold should be held in escrow by the trade hub, and if the sell order is canceled, it should be refunded to the player (perhaps less a small fee). I know you can modify orders after a time, but every time I look at doing that, it gives me a headache. * Take the total build and maintenance cost of the equipped troops, paid over a period of 3-, 6- or 12-months. The current equipment pricing indicates that it's better for an army of size X to build Y% more troops than buy X units of crafted items that provide a Y% advantage. |
Posted By: Llyr
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 04:42
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I'm a small player who has been trading through faction hubs almost since I started (trading was the thing I focused on at the beginning). I've made reasonable profits by selling basic resources in my local hub using Centrum prices; everyone else at my local hub wants a 2x or 3x markup. I don't sell rare items because I use them for crafting, but I do keep an eye on Centrum prices for craftable animal parts. Usually the prices are ridiculous, but every now and again there's a deal, and I jump on it. I agree that the trade system in Illy probably doesn't work as well as it should, largely because most players don't have the foggiest notion about economics. But rather than complain about it, I'm doing my best to leverage as much profit as I can from it. That's the best any individual player can hope for. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/187558" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 04:45
| I'm hoping that peace will bring greater involvement in crafting & therefore greater supply in the market... |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 05:30
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Trade always centers around supply and demand. Put simply there is very little demand for almost all crafted/gathered items. I'm surprised that stuff doesn't just sit in your warehouse unable to be sold. But I think this is a speculating market at the moment. When the next update comes if you happen to be the one with a stockpile of the rare res thats actually made useful you will make loads. Where as if your the one who sold a newly useful rare then you end up losing out.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 05:37
@Kumo: Did the war slow down crafting? Based on the graphs in Centrum, activity seems to have remained fairly strong regardless of whether alliances were fighting each other. The only spikes seem to be the tournaments. If anything, the war seemed to cause a lot of volume in troop production items like saddles, horses, armor and weapons.
That's the crux of it. Most folks just aren't sure how to price items. I have occasionally gotten some good deals in Centrum, but that's the exception. I think if you want to offer large amounts of finished crafted goods at reasonable prices, you've got to own the particular rare resource squares required to make them. I know the point of trade is to make gold, but honestly, you could just make cotter cities and harvest herbs to make millions. Or just get big, but not post huge armies, and bank the excess gold. That isn't necessarily satisfying gameplay. For me, I want to be the biggest at something (beer) and to see my crafted items getting traded in markets and getting used in cities. In the coming weeks, I plan to try some different experiments in trade. One will probably be an auction attempt. I might write a forum article that explains my reasoning for pricing items a particular way. I might try offering crafted items at close to their yearly amortized value, which is fairly low for biome and terrain-specific gear. I don't know what will happen there... mostly likely someone will just snap them up, and either sit on the items or ship them to Centrum to be re-posted at current market prices. But who knows, it might create some interesting activity, especially for some smaller players. |
Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 12:33
PvE zone in The Broken Lands may cause more players to appreciate the array of mechanics available to traders in the game since the military mechs will be effectively be nullified there.
The PvE zone will present the devs with a clear idea as to whether the trading game will generate enough Prestige Expenditure or not.
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Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 16:28
| Brand-- I'm not sure the war slowed down crafting, but I do know that it kept many folks from doing gathering and crafting that otherwise might have. So it may have prevented growth in those areas... So hopefully we see a spike in activity! |
Posted By: belargyle
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 18:40
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One that REALLY needs to be fleshed out is how pricing can be normalized. One thing the Dlords did was look to set a price on amount of time, each resource used, and how easy it was to aquire it. This allowed us to price the items fairly and yet still relitively cheap compared to previous prices (this was before the crafting update). Thus we undersold many as we still obtained what we (Dlord) considered a reasonable profit. Then people began just trying to sell no matter if they got any actual money value in return. For them, just gold was a return not taking into account the above which helped to establish value. As a quick example: 1 Wood = 3 Gold 1 Iron = 3 Gold 1 Food = 2 Gold 1 Clay = 1 Gold 1 Stone = 1 Gold The above doesn't include time nor T3 resourses but just basic T2 stuffs. But it begins to give a general feel for what prices should look like. This obviously is something each person or alliance should determine, so as to determine the kinds of profit margins you are willing to entertain, however you SHOULD have at least an knowledge of the minimum it costs you so as to know when you are actually getting and obtain a profitable business venture However since most don't even understand the concept of 'equitable value' that helps to normalize markets and not just in regions but across the board, you have overly expensive prices and absurdly undervalued items sold below any rational cost. The concept allows for places that can create in an area equipment easily and thus a bit cheaper, and extend it outward toward far off places for higher prices. (Iceheart is an easy example for spears). It gives gold it's proper value and something that makes gold worth more than just soldiers and makes the rich know how rich they are or are not! Anyway.. that is my Market rant :)
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 19:24
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Cost, rational or otherwise, does not determine price. Value is fair only when determined between a willing seller and a willing buyer. Price is determined by Supply and Demand. Where is that Invisible Hand? I know I left it here somewhere.
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Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 19:42
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@TD: while that might be theoretically true, there are a number of unusual distortions in Illy's markets. For example, raw resources and money are both produced spontaneously with zero cost. Production capacity and time are more valuable than the inputs--I think you stated the other night that your only goal when producing troops is to maximize strike power per minute of training. But that makes sense in an environment where the required weapons and armor are produced from free materials. If your input item production capacity is greater than your troop production capacity, and troop maintenance is far more expensive than build cost, then that makes sense. It just doesn't map to the real world very well. @belargyle: That's a really interesting approach. I probably wouldn't use that for crafted items, but for beer, weapons, armor and horses that's a great model. It gives people a rough idea of the item's basic value. If you factor in time, the price should be a good reference. Then it makes perfect sense to me that the prices of items would fluctuate around that due to events that generate demand, like tournaments and wars. |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 20:17
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Brand, "value" is a subjective perception. Not an objective fact. Even in Illy, the strike prices of Illy market deals are still supply/demand based. The unaccepted offers reflect the offeror's perception of value - just like used car offers on Craig's List. When an offer is accepted, at that moment, that is the Fair Market Value of the good, by definition.
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Posted By: Llyr
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2013 at 21:05
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When I price items for sale, I don't include any "cost" for anything that I can harvest; to me, those things are "free", especially since harvesters have no upkeep cost (just the occasional replacement cost when they get eaten or killed). I only consider the cost of any items that I have to purchase (normally just animal parts), where I note the gold cost to me and factor that into the asking price. In fact most of my profits (admittedly small) come from selling basic res at local hubs, where people are trying to get 2x or 3x the Centrum price. I just sell them at Centrum prices. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/187558" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 04:09
Subjective valuation is not mutually exclusive from the existence of commonly accepted methods of valuing commodities. For example, when establishing an approximate price for a company (and its publicly trade shares), there are industry-accepted references for evaluating its balance sheet, price-to-earnings ratio, revenues, assets, liabilities and cash flow. Those guidelines are certainly not the only aspect considered--hence the broad range of ratings and price targets set by finance professionals--but at least part of their analysis begins on a common ground. I think there is considerable value to discussing how we individually price items, with the possibility that we might arrive at some ballpark numbers for equipment prices. If there are varying opinions about the accuracy of those price ranges, I see that as good, because that's what leads to buying and selling. |
Posted By: Brandmeister
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 04:17
I'm not willing to go quite that far. Even though the harvesters have no hourly cost, it still costs me some personal effort to harvest rare resources. That time is worth something, at least to me. I do agree that some of the trade hubs have inflated prices on basic resources. Caer Morock didn't, which is why I was able to harvest herbs and anatomies and then basically swap those for basic resources at the hub. It allowed me to grow in a way that I found interesting compared to the usual (boring) newb focus on leveling up basic resource plots. Even the Centrum prices on basic resources seem a little arbitrary. I've often wondered if people picked a 1 gold exchange rate simply because that's the same rate used in most tavern quests. |
Posted By: Llyr
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 04:41
I do understand your point; I think the value of player time is extremely subjective. I'm retired with far too much spare time on my hands, so now that the weather is too lousy to drink beer on a patio I have lots of time to waste playing games. That's why I don't put any gold value on harvesting time; if I weren't playing Illy, I'd be wasting my time on something else  .------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/187558" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Albatross
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 13:47
There is also:
(Some of these overlap) I think some posters to this thread would wish for value to correspond to price, but it can be a struggle to convince buyers to buy into your margin over the costs (there isn't really 'marketing' in Illy), and most of us (like me) are not accountants. I agree that most Illy players do not really see the value of produced goods, in light of their costs, especially considering that one can 'forget' the initial investment of setting up a town — something that accountants don't miss. -------------  |
Posted By: Machete
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 18:33
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I am not a trader. When I have excess, I sell at the best offer price. When I need something, I buy at the best offer price. Since it isn't REAL gold or resources, it is of no concern to me. To try and put real life experience and calculations into the values of items in a game where the effort to acquire the resources or gold is not real and the value to most is not real, is an exercise in futility. |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 18:53
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Posted By: BetaMatt
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 07:09
Reading this is music to my ears...or to my eyes, whatever. As a person who enjoys learning and talking about finance, I spend most of my play time plugging different trade scenarios into Excel. Truthfully, earning adequate gold in Illy is not that hard (raising taxes is easy and is usually more profitable than selling adv res). If you join the right alliance you may not have to worry about gold and obtaining adv res at all. The market in Illy is not perfect nor is it complete but its still fun to try to do it well. ------------- 
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Posted By: NAAM Spokesman
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2013 at 02:10
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I have added the following hubs to the map: 14. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/-302/-763" rel="nofollow - Port Tal / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/28" rel="nofollow - Kingdom of Tal 15. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/544/466" rel="nofollow - The Barracks / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/63" rel="nofollow - Bayne's Irregulars 16. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/136/857" rel="nofollow - Falkenburg / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/36" rel="nofollow - Northmen 17. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/36" rel="nofollow - Tantark / http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction/8" rel="nofollow - Tantarkim Any suggestions? |