Quarantine lifted
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4515
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 04:50
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Quarantine lifted
Posted By: Nesse
Subject: Quarantine lifted
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 20:58
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Roads hereby cedes Victory to the coalition and accept the terms aggreed upon. Of course all terms are strictly confidential. /Odd, Chief Road Coordinator PS A thorough investigation has shown that what was previously seen as a plague and a cause for quarantine, was indeed quite harmless, and trove soil additions actually beneficial for the nutrient value of plants gown in such soil. Trade and other interaction with Harmless? is henceforth encouraged. NOW THEREFORE, pursuant to section 11 of the Bees Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. B.6 (hereinafter "the Act") and the power delegated to me by the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, I hereby lift all quarantine measures regarding the Harmless? alliance. /Odd, Chief Road Coordinator |
Replies:
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 22:29
/me mourns upon a victim to this new desease... seems it has proven deadly to those guards defending the research laboratories  "was indeed quite harmless" We knew it was Harmless from the start... (And sorry for casual dropping in Capitals
 ) |
Posted By: Silverlake
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 00:09
Well done all... no need to be John McCain...  ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/57338" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 02:35
Hora-- let's be very clear here. You are part of Invictus (VIC). The alliance that started Soup to create a new power paradigm in Illy. It is exactly your model that is failing. It is your model that dragged Roads into this mess in the first place when they should have stayed neutral the whole time... Honestly... what you should have done when this started is to say straight out... "Hey... H?... you may have a problem with us, but please do not take this out on Roads and others who are innocent of our posturing". And kicked them out of your confed to protect them. That would have been honorable. Instead you kept them in. Kept a neutral alliance to its word that it ended up keeping... despite that it had cities all over that got trashed... I have huge respect for what Roads are trying to do, Hora, despite their misadventure and, in my opinion, pretty lousy association with VIC on its way down... |
Hora wrote:Posted By: Jasche
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 08:45
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Kumo, Let me be clear. All members of Consone who joined in the war did so of their own free will. All were given the option of not joining in, with no prejudice. We have talked about involvement since, and no one has given Roads a hard time for leaving as they have. The structure of Consone is perceived by some as being too loose, and this is a talking point in the forums. So, with that in mind, 'evil' VIC did not 'drag' other alliances into a war when it was on its way down and VIC did not start the confederacy on its own. The lack of a single figurehead or leading alliance has meant that claims that anyone brought anyone else along unwillingly are based on pretty shaky ground. You cannot criticise us for not having a defined power structure and then claim that we have forced people into this. ------------- 'The Welfare of the People is the Highest Law' http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/14315" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Mr Damage
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 09:09
| Nice work Jasche, unfortunately the forums are used by most for propaganda, there are some goods things raised occasionally which I'm happy to applaud from either side, but these are all too few and far between. If people want a better understanding of the war, the best people to ask are the heads of each alliance as that is where the decisions come from. From there the neutrals can form their own opinion on who is right and who is wrong. Good gaming ladies and gents. |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 10:22
Actually this has nothing to do with having a "defined power structure" and YES even in a mob mentaility (or should I say, by its definition) people think that they are doing what they want, but in fact they are within a mob. I explain with a small example: Let us take a small group of kids forming a small gang in school. Even kids with not a great physical stature would want to join because it is cool and for the possible protection, so some little kids that hate violence join the gang. Now, in our example, one of the gang members has a street fight with another kid and loses, so he calls upon the gang to beat the other kid up. Now, let us suppose you are the little kid in the gang, what do you do .?. Bail out ? Of course not ! You go along and see what happens, thinking that the larger kids will take care of the problem and you won't have to tangle in the fight. So, there you are in the streets going for a fight that you do not really want, but you do not really expect to fight ... noone in particular led you there, you just followed the mob, seemingly on your own volition, but not doing so at such a slight notice of danger you would have been branded as a coward and ousted from the cool gang. You arrive at the scene and you realize that the other kid, upon seeing your gang, decided to call upon its friends and now our little kid is in a huge fist fight where it cannot really fight and it didn't want to fight anyway and that wasn't what it signed up for anyway, but it can't leave yet as the fight goes on ... noone wants to be the first to bail out in such cases, hey even little kids have ego, so he waits to see if its gang will win and partake in the victory. It does stay there based on its own choice, but that choice is in fact dictated by the mob mentality, which it cannot really defy unless something snaps the kid out of the mob. In real life the little kids sometimes gets away with it ... sometimes it does not ... Now where exactly did you see a "defined power structure" in this example ?  Epimyth : Making a choice, does not equate free will. Also, as a personal suggestion, I'd propose that you do not ever use that phrase "free will" ... it has been so misused and abused through the ages that it reeks of propaganda and hidden "truths", so it ends giving your words the exact opposite impression that you want to impart. P.S.
All the above with respect to Roads. Placing them as the little kid in the example was not meant as demeaning or offensive, but as a comparison between a peaceful alliance and its more warlike confederates. |
Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 10:41
I wish you wouldn't. Your posts always seem to to drift away from the topic in question and into sophistry and provocation.
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Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 11:04
What ? You didn't find any vocabulary mistakes this time to somehow make yourself feel better .?.  If you think that I drifted from the point of the post I quoted then that is your point/problem to prove, not mine and simply saying so, doesn't make it so ... Btw, to avoid any misunderstandings from any other "goodwilling" ghostlike posters, all the above are ombviously (I leave that extra "m" for Ossian to have something to say
) my own opinions and do not reflect anyone else's views, unless someone explicitly states that he agrees with what I said. |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 12:39
Deranzin, this example has some minor faults in there... First of all, there wasn't anyone loosing in the start. To stay in your example: Two kids have a fight, first simply with hands, but suddenly one side starts throwing with stones. Bigger kids would step in to take them stones out of his hands, but in NO WAY we where called in to "beat the other kid up"!
Another bad simile. Consone was founded as defensive group of alliances. Most Consone alliances only joined in after H? took this to the level of "down with this group, as they might grow stronger than us".
I can't agree with you. If you join a group, stating from the start, that you would join in defending each other, that's choice number one. Noone forced you to do so. If that action arrives, and you are asked, if you want to join in, it's your choice, too. If you say no, you would only contradict the choice you made before. That's the only obstacle in there. Finally, if you decide you want to leave (in this case due to heavy losses), and noone forces you to stay in, why would this contradict free will? Free will is to take the consequences. For Roads, joining Consone and staying for some fighting had the consequence to loose some towns. Now, the choice of leaving the fight has the consequence of fullfilling any peace treaty you worked out. It won't have consequences from any Consone alliance, as we still regard them as friends. Thus I'll further use "Free will", especially in a anonymous browser game!
Of course, those references to "kids" again was taken from Deranzin's example, thus no offense meant... |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 14:49
Weeeell, if that is so then one could say that if ABSA wasn't losing then it should have proceeded to try throwing stones as well instead of calling on others, but that is not the point. As you said this example has mistakes and I raise that statement to "every example has mistakes". In this case though, I didn't create the example to give a small recount of some of the aspects of this war, but to give an example of why what Jasche said in his last sentence is wrong. Meaning that you do not need a " defined power structure" in order to force someone into action, and I think that the example I presented is a good case of that. So, taking into consideration that an accurate representation of the happenings in this war was not my point in the first place, I believe that your pointers might hold some value and would have made a nice discussion, but it wasn't my point in the first place to argue about them. :)
Yeah, like most such coallitions things start with the credo "let us gather round and protect our interests better" ... then, someone invariably thinks that "offense is the best defense" and the rest is usually history ...
Well, I do not share that view and iirc the facts do not support it, but I am not known for my good memory in order to argue more on that other than stating that I never got that impression so far. A smal fact from the public diplomacy screen :
I think that speaks of itself. So at the start of this war Harmless? only declared war to the alliances hitting RHY so what you say does not to be true ... but let us not turn this into a "who started it" thread because it is imho a bit pointless ...
It would seem that we have a different definition of what "freedom" is ... it goes without saying that every choice has its consequences so, if we go by your definition, EVERYTHING is a matter of free will simply because we pay for what we choose ... But this is not freedom ... this is like simply paying for your bills ... Find me the "free will" of having to pa ransom for a kidnapped person ... hey, you have the "free will" to not pay, but your relative will die ... nice "free will" there just because you take the consequences .?. You are actually placing free will in blackmail with your definition !! It would appear that most people think that freedom and democracy is just a system within which you make choices, but they fail to see that you HAVE to put under scrutiny which are the motives, the pressures (emotional or others) placed on the people making a decision, if they are subjected to blackmail or not, if they actually have a REAL choice or the ogre's choice (die quick or die slow) etc etc ... Confusing the ability of choosing, with actual freedom is sadly one of the things that never cease to amaze me ... the rest in IGM ...
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Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 14:59
I don't know what Consone was founded to be. The simple fact is that it became an offensive power bloc. This war never would have happened if members weren't throwing their weight around with the full knowledge that "the Soup Posse" had their back. That tactic normally worked until they encountered some folks who weren't going to be bullied. End of story. |
Posted By: Jasche
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 15:25
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Maybe the two examples do not follow perfectly Deranzin, but in this case I am stating that we did not 'force' Roads into joining Consone, nor taking part in the war. We have not criticised them in any way for signing the peace treaty. I merely used the example to back up the fact. Naturally you may feel that we lack structure and exert power over others - hence your discussion in regard to 'grey areas' and your statements made. As far as I am concerned I disagree with that assertion as I disagree with the idea that Consone developed the war and H? merely responded to our terrible aggression. I do know that H? wanted this war and worked to orchestrate it. I do know that as a group we could have done better with some of the diplomacy and behaviour across the alliances but ironically this is not only restricted to Consone alliances. I do know that it is not as simple as some have painted it to be. And to get back to topic: We had a discussion with Roads as did all the other alliances together about this war and Roads chose to declare war just as they chose to make peace and at no time did anyone from any of the other alliances exert any pressure on them. ------------- 'The Welfare of the People is the Highest Law' http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/14315" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Khells
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 16:21
| I do not agree with Kumomoto that Consone was founded to be an offensive power bloc. |
Posted By: Drejan
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 16:31
mhmmm
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 16:56
...*switches on automatic repeater* ...ct, Mutual Defense Pact, Mutual Defense Pact, Mutual Def... *switches of repeater* Why speak for myself, if I got the technological equipment? Oh, and you forgot the one by Sages...
answered to IGM, as requested  |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 17:31
Noone claimed otherwise (if you think I did, read my post better) ... you do realize though that with what you say, if anyone ever accuses H? for forcing any alliance out of the war, anyone could just point them to your post and simply say "hey Harmless? did nothing ! they chose peace on their own free will !" disregarding any reasons for their choice and any factors that played a part on this decision. Also, on the underlined part, despite the "OMG!!! meter" exploding, I let it slide in the first post, but really you are writting this as if you had a choice to the matter and you are letting them go peacefully on Consone's "free will" and you expect a cookie for it ... but any sane person should wonder how many alliances would have stopped participating in this war if you started turning upon your ex-confederates simply because they decided that they do not want to fight anymore and what would have been the result to your side's morale .?. (*) The answer is obvious.
Plus, Nesse, posting as Odd, is still the head of Druids who are still in the war, so not striking/berating alliances containing at least some of your alts does not give you any extra credit for good manners. (*) (Hint hint : Real life example WWII and Italy bailing out on Germany wheraupon Germany started attacking the Italians ... they won that skirmish, but we all know how much that idea helped them in the war overall) EDIT : And I forgot this !
NATO is a mutual defence pact, as well ... how many times it has actually defended itself, I wonder ... |
Posted By: ropadope
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 17:48
| ... |
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 19:22
| Well, this thread has already been Godwin'd so I don't know if it's worth responding, but NATO has acted several times in defense if its member states. The invasion of Afghanistan comes to mind. |
Posted By: Grego
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 19:32
Then why you guys keep knitting your theories based on interpretation that Absa was agressor? Deranzin, you always use many words and say nothing, or I am too dumb to understand your fine logic. |
Posted By: Nesse
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 20:12
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I must say the discussion in this thread appears very strange to me. It all started innocently with an alarming report of a contagious disease from our highly renowned research lab. With strong indications of the contamination coming from a Harmless? town we had recently traded with, we saw no other recourse than to declare Harmless? in quarantine. Since then, we have had a lot of support from friends in many alliances in Elgea, including huge efforts from several Harmless? towns to prevent the disease from spreading into Roads towns. Our intrepid researchers have redoubled their efforts and not only come out with a cure for the original disease (that will also reduce plaque and prevent dandruff - the patented solution can be purchase at your nearest Road office), but they also discovered that the first suspicion of over-troved Harmless? soil was false, and as just declared in the preamble of this thread, using such soil is indeed harmless for Elves, Humans, Dwarves and probably Orcs as well (final trials ongoing to verify this are currently underway with remarkably uninterested Orcs). Thus, any implied or expressed concern about our ability to exert free will should be addressed instead to a separate forum on theoretical philosopy, that we feel certain would appreciate such musings. Good Speed! /Odd, Chief Road Coordinator |
Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 21:17
and, as I said, in such groups someone is always bound to think that "offence is the best defence" ... ;p
First of all I am one guy (I am not yet fat enough to be refered in the plural form ... please wait 30 years :p ) and second of all, because you yourself posted that you attacked first in your very own topic. http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/phew_topic4331.html "This was first blood between us...." So, since when using simple facts is a theoretical practice .?.
I wouldn't say that any of these cases apply here, but since you think they are valid, you pick one ... EDIT :
And something else ... I mentioned the word Germany and WWII facts, not Nazis which are distict things, ergo the law is yet to be applied.  |
Posted By: Vanerin
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 22:23
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Why is a thread celebrating peace filled with arguing? Good job H? and Roads! I am glad you got things all worked out. ~Vanerin
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Posted By: Sajreth
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 22:25
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Ok as I see it Consone is really nothing more than a group of alliances confed with each-other, but rather than keeping it hidden from everyone, we let it be publicly known. Each alliance is autonomous, however we communicate and work together. There is no organized leadership because once again we're a group of autonomous entities, and not an imperialistic mega-group. Advantages include, shared knowledge, military assistance, and even an economic benefit toward members. However the well being of each individual alliance has to come first, and this is what has happened with Roads. It's sad to see them go, but if it's what is best for them, then that is all that matters. -------------  
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Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 22:52
Can you honestly say it was unjustified without your own hand reaching up to strangle you?
I think it's pretty clear what you were trying to imply. Your denials here ring pretty hollow.
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Posted By: Deranzin
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 23:14
I think that politics are not allowed in these forums so, as you can see, I reserved any judgement and just quoted the fact of the strategy. Also, as you can see, it is not easy to find "the truth" in virtual wars in a confined environment, so imagine how tenuous would have been and such declarations any of us would try to make on real wars within the vastness of our planet.
Actually I implied nothing about it ... just the fact of the matter that the Germans in WWII turned viciously against the Italians (with such ferocity in some areas that even the conquered people took pity on them and hid them ! (*) ) when the Italians signed peace treates with the Allies. On that regard I pointed out had Consone followed such an idea, that tactic would have been extremely bad PR and it would exhaust their already thin resources ... same thing that happened to the Germans in the real war, as recorded by history. So, what is there to imply with the pure facts .?. It was just a bad war tactic that happened to be implemented by the Germans and I do not see why mentioning Germans and WWII immediately brings forth the Godwin's Law ...
(*) To lighten up an old Greek joke on the matter : A very old person around the change of the millenium goes to a priest to confess. - Father, he says, I have done something very bad and before I die, I'd like to confess ... - What, my son .?. - When I hid an Italian in the WWII from the Germans, I actually charged him for rent. - Well, that was abysmal behaviour, but after so many I guess that you should be forgiven. - Thank you father ! The old man says and start to leave but as an afterthought he ask the priest: "Father ? Do you think I should tell him that the war is over .?. " Godwin's law here as well .?. |
Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2012 at 23:21
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It is off topic and inappropriate to continue to compare Illy to a real life war. Please quit doing it. Luna ------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk 
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2012 at 06:04
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I have a real-life booger. It's not even a little war-like.
------------- "Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now." - HonoredMule |
Posted By: patoloco569
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2012 at 06:26
Oh my. I have blennophobia. Please........stay away. If cornered by a booger, I will fight you....
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2012 at 06:31
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------------- "Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now." - HonoredMule |