Third-party tools without unfairness
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
Forum Description: Got a great idea? A feature you'd like to see? Share it here!
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4506
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 13:04
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Third-party tools without unfairness
Posted By: Eddy
Subject: Third-party tools without unfairness
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 16:06
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Having looked at your policy on third-party tools and seen that it is just and reasonable - but noticed that there are too many things, that users want, for you to implement all of, where implementing a half-way decent API would likely be quicker for you to develop, that lets third-parties implement what users want - I have a suggestion. Provide an API for third-party tools but arrange that it can only be used by tools uploaded to a server you control, like an app-store, where all players have access to it, thereby precluding unfair advantage. Try to resist the temptation to require payment (either cash or prestige) for use of such extensions (you'd be controlling the channel to it, so that'd tempt your money folk, but doing so would put us back in the territory of worrying about such extensions providing unfair advantages, which would be Bad For The Game). A prerequisite would be that the tool's license permits all your users to use it, inspect the code, publish any criticisms they have of it and offer you modified versions of it under the same terms. So, rather than an app-store, it's a community toy-box. That would also give you (and users) scope for inspecting such tools to check they're not cheating (e.g. sending the author secrets behind the user's back) or treating some players specially. Whether you do that as a prerequisite for upload (problematic because of demand on your resources if it's used enough to be worth having) or make it easy for users to report issues that may prompt you to pull one (issues with how to manage that), that's up to you. Perhaps make publicly-visible but not yet available in-game for a grace period, to let users (who know how) inspect each new version (with the changes relative to a prior version) before it goes live; push the burden of checking onto coder-users and spare yourself any obligation to inspect (while retaining the option to do so, naturally). Duration of grace-period can depend on amount of change to code. Browser-neutrality (i.e. pure clean HTML5+AJAX/XHR) would be sensible to demand. It probably makes sense to also specify that the code for such tools should be written in plain, intelligible form - i.e. forbid deliberate/wilful obfuscation - so that it's possible to check for the other things. You'd naturally reserve the right to be arbitrary - or, more to the point, not have to publicly state or defend your reasons - in regard to rejecting or pulling toys. Likewise the right to use a modified version rather than the version submitted, at your unfettered discretion. You'd need some kind of a "play-ground" area of the toy-box in which developers can, for limited periods (and with careful accounting and tracking, to make discovery of any abuse easy, even after the fact), upload test versions of their toys, to check they're ready for prime time and fix the problems that mean they aren't. Others should be able to inspect the version the developer is using in the play-ground (and its differences from the public version), to report issues early, even if they aren't authorised to use that play-ground version. One possible way to implement this would be for you (Illyriad devs) to have a https://github.com/" rel="nofollow - github account that publishes the authorised source of each toy; its developers have their own, to which to push updates, from which you can pull if/when you see fit; and you can back off from any given update any time you take a dislike to a newer version but are still satisfied that some older version is OK (git makes this easy). This would also make it easy for other (coder) users to inspect the changes to toys (github includes code-review facilities) and, indeed, provide their own suggested changes. Illy could then have pages for accessing your github account (to get a list of available toys), letting users select extensions they want, then configuring the user account to embed in each illy-page some script to fetch and load the selected toys. The play-ground could either be a second github account or access branches other than master from the usual repositories. Your code to load each toy into relevant pages can give an API-specified init-hook of the toy a magic cookie (or an object, not accessible from the ECMAScript global object and namespace, that's what provides the API) that it needs in order to access the API from within the page, to make abuse harder. There would still be ways for users to work round that (using sufficiently devious user-JS, for example) but that's true of your present situation, with the same remedy: you forbid it and reserve the right to kick them if you catch them doing it. What matters is to make it harder than most users shall bother to try to overcome and clear what the penalty is if caught. If all extensions are available to (and open to inspection by) all users, there should be no unfairness. ------------- Eddy. |
Replies:
Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 16:15
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This is very unlikely to be something that we would do. In all of my discussions with the dev team about third party tools our policy is the same. Third party tools are just that, third party. We don't support or manage them. Players use them at your own risk. We do not have the time and resources to manage the game as well as attempting to manage things created by people not on the dev team. Our focus will remain on the internal development of Illyriad. Luna ------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk 
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Posted By: Kabu
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 16:20
| I have yet to hear about a third-party app developed by an alliance as a secret weapon. :p |
Posted By: Arakamis
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 16:38
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It is possible. For instance, Eaque can change his tool to a deadly weapon without anyone realizing until it is too late.. This is a thoroughly thought out suggestion and despite Luna's message, i hope devs will give it a second thought. There should be some sort of control over these 3rd party tools. |
Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 17:10
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I agree 3rd party tools are just that 3rd party. I would much rather have the dev team focused on the game and updates to it. Rather than every player and their brother putting up what they think is a great tool. Then when one of them breaks, everyone goes running to the forums and petitions on why the 3rd party tool isn't working.
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Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 17:25
 It's a good suggestion, and maybe it could be organized elsewhere, say, on HonoredMule's wiki. One of two public tools is already there, and its CC-BY-NC license would be good enough for Eddy's suggestion. OTOH, with only two tools we can continue to discuss their merits here. Update s/your/Eddy's/
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Arakamis wrote:Posted By: Grainne
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 17:33
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Sure...after path-finding, then ships and all things water, then perhaps pirates (oh my!!)....the list goes on and on. I would much rather look forward to the ever-changing world of Illy, myself. Forums and petitions on 3rd party tools would be inevitable (agreed DD89)...it would be an absolute mess. You don't have to use the tools, you can play without them. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45918" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Bambolina
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 17:46
I hope devs will not give it a second thought. If you have problem with Eaque's tool it is your problem and no one is saying you must use it. "Players use 3d party tools at their own risk." I like that tools a lot as hundreds of other players do and I use it at my own risk and want to continue using it. |
Posted By: Arakamis
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 19:19
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I don't have a problem with Eaque's tool, I have a problem with the 3rd party tool regulations here in illyriad and speaking out my suggestions to a point that i consider missing/poorly handled. To prevent you from taking this sentence and use it against me to leave illy, no!, I'm not seeing it as a huge problem that needs to be fixed asap. So, I'm partly on the same line with some others here suggesting that the improvement of the game comes first. btw, Thank you for suggestion! FYI, I'm not using it since they have declared that a certain group is not allowed access and will probably never gonna use it. Thinking about developing my own tool if i can create some more time for illy.
Having said that, as a player and an official in another online gaming platform, I have a solid and a working example where such usage/deployment of 3rd party tools are regulated and being watched to prevent users from harm and unfair advantage to certain groups/players, which i see illy is missing. |