The Full Story
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4334
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 04:41
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Full Story
Posted By: KillerPoodle
Subject: The Full Story
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 04:10
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Or as close to it as anyone is likely to get. Let me preface this with the fact that I expect the usual Forum and Anti-H? Trolls to have a field day picking my words to pieces - as they would if I posted that the sky is blue and the grass is green. I hope that those who aren't so closed minded get some insight into what is happening in this game we play. KP ********************************** Harmless have been in this game from Day 1. We are a military alliance who make no apology for the fact that we intend to stay the #1 alliance for as long as we possibly can. We therefore play the long game and we track and remember as much info about people, alliances and events as it is possible to do in the vastness of Illyriad. Having been around for a while and having been the preeminent alliance pretty much from the beginning we have naturally made enemies - people who don't like our style (White hated the fact we wouldn't play dirty), people who've been on the wrong end of our defense of the defense-less, people who made bad decisions on which side of a war to join and paid for it, people (like those in VIC) who were desperate to join the White war against us but couldn't due to the integrity of their leader at the time refusing to break their NAP with us. In short - quite a few people with beef against H? Now, we actually like competition so it was with interest that we watched the majority of those Anti-H? people *finally* get their act together and form Consone and it was with a wry smile we saw their stated mandate to "Defend their members" (against what or whom?). After all - everyone knows that a strong offense is one of the best forms of defense. We've had a constant stream of intel from friends and other sources about their real intentions, but given the debacle that was the VALAR incident (more on that later) we decided to let it run and see what happened, to give them the benefit of the doubt, and if it was going to end in conflict, an opportunity to grow stronger instead of acting precipitously against them. What happened was depressingly familiar given the known history of those who make up Consone. It started out as random acts of aggression in harvesting resources, settling provocative locations, attacking encampments etc and has steadily built up into a pattern of member alliances doing whatever the heck they want and, when people complain, threatening with the whole weight of Consone behind them. One Consone alliance even tried this with H? and when we wouldn't back down brought in their Consone level diplomat (Jasche). In that case they backed down when we called their bluff - obviously they did not feel quite strong enough to challenge us yet. Other alliances have not been so fortunate. We had considered that Consone's sheer number of players meant that at some point they would massively outpower us - at which time they could pull the same stunts with H? as they were doing with pretty much everyone else, and therefore we should probably see who else had issues with them and might be friendly in case push came to shove. As it happens we barely had to lift a finger - we had contact from many other alliances (usually those with whom we'd had previous diplomatic disagreements which were worked out fairly for all concerned) and those alliance leaders confirmed the patterns we had observed. Consone alliances were just going around doing whatever they felt like and backing it up with the confed's power. They would even post rules about how they expected other alliances to behave toward them (in harvesting for example) and then violate those same rules in return - even against training alliances. Even with this wealth of corroboration we didn't really want to act - and that has a lot to do with the old VALAR. In that situation we seriously misjudged things. Before we declared war on VALAR we carefully weighed up the friends we thought they had and the military strength and production strength they ought to have had with their population (despite having been active with their armies recently) and we figured that if everyone came on board it would be a pretty even fight. What happened in the end was that VALAR themselves crumbled instantly and *not one* of their friends came to help. The result was an embarrassing rout and it was H?'s fault due to our misjudgement so we came to terms as soon as possible and with as little damage done to anyone other than the worst of their leaders. So - with that in mind, despite all the stuff going on and the bullying we saw, we waited, for months. Then, recently, came the incident with RHY (with whom we had been friends for a while due to a diplo issue we worked out to everyone's satisfaction). RHY had an incident over some mines. They thought they had worked it out and were in the process of complying with the agreement when ABSA showed up and basically acted like a-holes. I've seen the messages from Neytri in response to RHY's attempt to deal with the unsolicited and unnecessary attacks and they demonstrate a cockiness, arrogance and aggressive tone which has come to typify Consone dealings over the last few months. You'll have seen some of those messages in another thread on this forum. Fortunately for RHY - they had an ally, someone with the bark and the bite to stand up to the entire Consone confed and this meant they didn't have to put up with the bullying from Consone as so many other alliances had. Both RHY and H? knew from past events that the moment RHY acted against ABSA that there was a good chance it would be the entire confed that would weigh in to muscle them over but we confirmed with RHY we would back them up and prepared for the worst. Sure enough Consone acted true to form and came in with guns blazing. The only difference this time was that their victim had backup. As soon as Jasche realized that someone had done something to bring H? into a conflict he tried to recover the situation (trust me on this - had H? not got involved Jasche would have let the whole thing run and let RHY burn). However, despite Consone's belated attempts to recover the situation, we feel that enough is enough and this time Consone need to feel the heat and deal with the consequences of their actions and track record. So, despite the fact that we are outnumbered, this is war and we'll find out how good Consone really are. KP ------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Replies:
Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 04:19
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Cant say i can agree with this post post 100% but I will say that i appreciate you sharing your veiw KP. Hopefully there is a resolution to this mess and there are parties involved trying to reach it ------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 04:43
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I can say that Dark and WoT had a similar experience over a mine, however it was with different area of Consone. This mine was 4 squares from a Dark town that Dark and WoT were sharing and timing mining, since it was a rare with a really long harvest time we did have a holding army there. The Consone player smashed the army, and tried to tell us how, when and where we are allowed to use our armies. The leader of that alliance basically ignored the issue when it was brought to him, informing us that the player had that right, and that if we placed a holding force there again to expect it to be smashed again, and that the Dark town that was near was more or less abandoned. The phrase was that our claim was 'spurious' at best. Now, had Dark or WoT retaliated further, or had not a really helpful person in that alliance been able to help us out, Dark and/or WoT could be in the same situation as RHY. Interesting. History almost repeated. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Jane DarkMagic
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 04:47
| It's great to hear the story from your perspective, KP. Thank you for sharing! |
Posted By: Juswin
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 04:51
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I dunno about Consone being jerks and such. Jasche has clearly stated and we also believe that sieging Absa towns due to a loss of soldiers over a mine is an overreaction. I am sure most people will agree with this. There is a lot of killing troops over rare resources, but it is not a pretext for sending sieges. Nor is being an "a-hole" a legitimate reason to siege uninvolved Absa players. And breaking sieges is not a hostile act. What confederate would stand by and watch the cities of small players in an old confederated alliance get sieged for no clear, justifiable reason? Please stop insinuating that Consone was looking for this fight. You can clearly see that we were heavily involved in the tournament. Especially Absa! How could Absa even want to start a fight with RHY when they are very much committing their troops in the tournament? A lot of political bs may be said and all, but the entire matter is just simple. We never wanted this war. It was pushed on us. |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 05:04
If a confederate of Dark did what ABSA did, we likely would not back them up. Sometimes when you dig a deep hole, you fall in. This has been rehashed elsewhere though, no? ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Juswin wrote:Posted By: Juswin
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 05:12
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I fail to understand what Absa did to merit a SIEGE against uninvolved, small members. An insulting IGM? Several lost troops? Maybe, according to some people. I don't know. I still think, in my own opinion, that sieging towns was an overreaction and unjustified. |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 05:19
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See of that I am not sure. My ideas for Illy are this: every action has a reaction, but the reaction is rarely the opposite - it is usually much different, unpredictable, and rarely equal. Moral of the Story - don't kick a sleeping bear in the cookies, and then taunt it. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 06:08
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Not going to lie, this sounds incredibly paranoid. It also kind of confirms suspicions that this has been in the works for some time, and the mine incident was just just an excuse (You settled one diplomatic issue and decided that was the basis for a confederation?) I think ultimately this is just a pro-H? version of what everyone assumed was happening anyway. Which I guess is the point.
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 06:14
RHY has been on our forums for over 6 months - I just didn't want to spend a bunch of words and make the post above even longer. ------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 06:16
------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Mr Damage
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 06:16
| KP, I don't think the post was necessary but well done for putting H's opinion up. Agreed you will get plenty of feedback both positive and negative and all will be irrelevant. Some of your information I have doubts on but there is no need to pursue all of it, this war will rage until there is a victor regardless. I just want to point out that there was at least 1 alliance that stood by Valar when the time came. Prisoners of Society backed their confed Valar, our troops were sent at H siege camps and the result is now history. We are on different sides and naturally there will be little agreement between our viewpoints, you should know enough about me by now to know that I take whatever happens all with a grain of salt, there is enough evidence of that in the old Valar War forums if anyone wants to educate themselves. I am not a H hater, I am envious of your standing and play the game as a competitor but also appreciative at the same time, I would have joined H long ago if I wanted an easy ride but that to me is pointless. All the best for better or worse and see you in the trenches. |
Posted By: Beecks
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 06:19
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This is a good thread. While I'll likely be fighting on Consone's side in this conflict, I believe that ABSA instigated the original conflict with RHY through an unnecessary use of force followed by boor-ish negotiating tactics. Given Consone's pattern of behavior, as observed by H?, it's not terribly shocking that they would use this incident to attack now. I don't find the 'H? as the bully' narrative to be particularly compelling; especially when you consider that if H? really were the warmongers their opponents are making them out to be then why would they have waited nearly a year since their last conflict? If all H? cares about is Machiavellian control of the server then it would've been far smarter to attack 6 months ago when their opponents hadn't yet organized themselves or (as Myr mentioned in GC) they could have waited until just after the tournament ended when their opponents would be at their weakest. H? grievances are legitimate and if peace is going to be achieved then it's best to acknowledge that they didn't decide to go to war out of nowhere.
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Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 06:28
I stand corrected - thanks for reminding me. As I mentioned - there's been a lot of history to try to keep track of. KP ------------- "This is a bad idea and we shouldn't do it." - endorsement by HM "a little name-calling is a positive thing." - Rill |
Posted By: Daunt
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 06:57
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Thanks for writing this. I've wondered what was going through H's head. I disagree with a lot of what you wrote being that I belong to a fairly peaceful guild (in Consone) but at least now I can see why a military guild would view Consone as a threat. |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 07:11
"I belong to a fairly peaceful guild"
 And I have a bridge to sell you. |
Posted By: Diomedes
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 07:48
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It's an interesting thread, and I thank KP for offering his version of events, as indeed I also thank members of Consone for providing their version of what is happening and why. However, history is replete with wars starting for no other reason than someone wanting to flex their muscles, or feeling slighted by some alleged offence. History also provides many examples of powerful people just wanting a fight. I suspect that, at its core, this particular war has portions of both types. It will be interesting to see if there is a shift in power when the dust settles. ------------- "Walk in the way of the good, for the righteous will dwell in the land" |
Posted By: SunStorm
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 08:27
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I too would like to thank KP for this thread.
(does anyone still have her on their FB? I seem to have lost her from my contacts... If so, shoot me a message please)
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Posted By: Rasak
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 08:27
| I also am worried about any possible power shift. We know how H? will handle affairs, and it appears we also know how Consone might handle affairs as well. I think I prefer sticking with the H? way of doing things. |
Posted By: Southern Dwarf
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 09:51
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The following post is just my personal view and got nothing to do with the official policy of Victrix (my alliance): When I got to Illy roughly one and a half year ago I did not know that the game would be so different from the games I played before (Die Stämme, engl. The Tribes, and Grepolis) so I was pretty much surprised but still cautious and accepted the first invitation to join an alliance (Victrix) and immediately resettled to Larn. Cautious I denied further help from the then training alliance of Invictus and began to build up my towns entirely by farming the ress for myself. I did the maximum number of quests every day to get every ressource I could gather. Then after my first tourney (collecting animal parts) I got into Invictus. Now there is the reason for this post. While in Invictus I never had any bad experience with our leadership concerning agression vs other alliances. I got of course after starting to cast buffs on random people the sole bad experience with H? who according to Jasche threatened Invictus with war because I was operating three then non-enhanced buffs on StJude's towns. I still think any alliance has no say in the matter who might play this game and who might not. StJude might have been an idiot but since the destruction of a city undoes the work of months in a few days he would have learned his lesson. H? did seem to me to unbalanced in their judgements and completely tyrannic to bully Invictus because they could. Aside from tansiraine I never met someone friendly or not acting aloof from H? so my opinion stayed posed against them. Likewise I never experienced someone saying anything bad about Invictus and I was quite active in GC where a number of people had their say about quite a number of alliances. Even on this forum I never read so much negative statements until after Consone was founded. The funniest thing about Consone is for me that Invictus' leadership asked me to relocate to Victrix for alliance restructiering and Victrix decided afterwards they did not want to become part of Consone. Afterwards I had to work more so I logged in only once per day or every two days to issue building and research orders. Now I got a cold and hence more time. In all of my time in Invictus (about a year) I never experienced the leadership anything else but fair, just and friendly towards anyone in this game. This is why I refuse to believe Invictus had any bad intention in this conflict. If there are evil designs in Consone they come from the limited communication and control mechanisms to hold 11 alliances in line. I admit that I am not very active in diplomacy - and military - in this game. I prefer to build my cities and cast geomancer spells while trying to get the heart of corruption for myself. So there are for sure many things I will not get. And one thing I will never get: Where is the fun in ganging upon smaller or peaceful player? I believe the wargame faction seeks to eliminate those who want to experience the difference in Illy in peace. Destruction is allways easier than creation. I would prefer warmonger to war among them and let us non-agressive players in peace. For me this whole conflict is constructed from the start - and I don't care anymore by whom and why. If it is any help I would pay for the mine in question and rent it for a year. ------------- Also known as Afaslizo ingame. |
Posted By: Rasak
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 10:26
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SD... I have utmost respect for you. I was one that received a spell from you... for.. what.. almost 2 months. You are a new players dream. However, I have to ask... Who attacked who first? Then who asked for outside help first? Ganging up on the smaller players was first done by Consone before H? even joined in this conflict. I will admit that some H? players prob chose to join Rhy to help them in their problems. Does that mean H? officially entered the stage? I don't think so. Perhaps H? allows their players the freedom to join outside issues that they feel strongly about, so long as they don't pull H? proper into the conflict (If you feel strongly about this leave H? and do as you feel you must, we will see you when you are ready to come back). I don't know if that will sooth anyone as far as H? players dropping alliance and joining other alliances when a conflict may come, but I do think that before H? became involved, the Consone alliances were behaving in a much different manner than they were after H? joined the event. Again we are talking about the past now. Many alliances have declared war on many other alliances. If we are truly trying to solve this, we need to forget what came before and talk about what is now. Even if Rhy and Absa reach a friendly peace out of all this, I don't think Consone and H? are done with each other yet. H? is gonna want something to halt hostilities I think (based on the past) and the same could be said for Consone... of course this is assuming that either side still holds a strong position at the end of this :D
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Posted By: Mr Damage
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 10:48
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(does anyone still have her on their FB? I seem to have lost her from my contacts... If so, shoot me a message please)
[/QUOTE]
There may be someone out there who does but seeing she left without warning maybe she wanted complete separation from Illy.
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Posted By: Mogul
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 12:25
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I believe this: H? is militaristic alliance, we are #1 and are willing to do anything to stay #1. (so VIC as #2 is danger for our goal and strong offense is best to defend our goal) But I don't believe this: Consone is big evil formed to stunt everyone smaller than H? and working on goal to massively outnumber H? so they can start to stunt also H? and that's why we have to stop them now. --- You might say to me something same as you replied to juxwin, that because I am not part of Consone leadership I have no idea what Consone goals are but that is way too paranoid. I know what kind of emails I was receiving basically saying... defend, don't retaliate, your town was blighted? - ignore it, only send reinforcements to sieged towns or try to break siege camps and so on... But I am sure you know it as you seems to be better informed then me and I guess H? has spies in every consone alliance based on "we track and remember as much info about people, alliances and events as it is possible"... but unless you are one of Consone leaders second part of your "full story" is just paranoid speculation. |
Posted By: Uno
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 12:51
I must admit that you've been very creative in putting up this imaginative fairy tale but the bit I quoted really surpasses what I thought could be imaginable. As a matter of fact H? declared Confed with Champ the moment before declaring war to Valar and the same happened now one year later with RHY. The only true bit about your tale is the fact that you want to remain the #1 alliance and this is evident in that every time you see some threat you proceed to eliminate it with subtle diplomacy and propaganda, you make sure you are never alone in the deed and make it appear that you are rushing to help the poor and undefended so to not be recognized for what you are by the fools that can't see beyond their noses. One year ago like now you H? were here on the forums with your pompous and arrogant attitude and the LAST thing that crossed your minds was coming to terms as soon as possible. That only happened thanks to the good will and work of people that never had and never will have anything to share with H?'s view of the politics in this game and only after you obtained what you wanted, which was Valar's leadership quitting and the at the time #1 Alliance of the game losing many important members. ------------- Eréc of Caer Uisc King of Dyfneint Indomiti Alliance |
Posted By: Alvartalur
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 14:12
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It is incredibly funny to see how people are fighting over a fight in a war game. Though the present situation on a concrete scale can be seen as a dispute over one or two mines that grows into a war, I think the situation in general can be characterized more as a war about playing stiles; PvP vs PvE/Tournament. This may not be the Full Story, but I believe it is close to be the true story. I suggest that the DEV team set up another server, so players could decide between a PvP server and a PvE/Tournament server. On the PvE/Tournament server some of the present war capabilities (like siege) should be disabled. Those in favor of PvP (those who like wars) could go to the PvP server and those in favor of PvE/Tournament (those who like peace most of the time) could go to the PvE/Tournament server. In order to conclude whether elgea should be the PvP or the PvE/Tournament server, I suggest a full scale world wide war ... :D Alternatively (or meanwhile) people have to face the fact, that players of different plying stiles are playing the same game. |
Posted By: Vanerin
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 16:02
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KillerPoodle, thank you for your post. It was very helpful. I am not sure I agree with everything you said or actions taken, but I still appreciate you clearly laying out your perspective. ~Vanerin
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Posted By: Southern Dwarf
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 16:35
------------- Also known as Afaslizo ingame. |
Posted By: belargyle
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 16:46
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Here is what I find funny.. The whole - big alliance against a smaller one, statement. As though H? engaged ABSA a in military offensive. H? was there helping an ally- just as ABSA did. It was fair for ABSA, it is fair H? - Please - for the love of PETE - stop all the incessant whining. Now here is the pot calling the kettle black senario on the above statement: 9 to 10 alliances (Consone) against 1 (H?).. Anyone see a problem with the these odds  Dlords agree. We like these odds, count us in! (so make it against 2). We don't just talk about and whine what is unfair.. we act on it. By the way, our declaration of war is nothing personal toward individual allainces (as many of the alliances involved know, and we have talked about it) but is is 'in part' regarding the Consone mentality it has create with some in their Confed. This is a war and our friends are involved, it is a fight that others have said they want a piece of.. we agree, count us in! For better or worse, it appears enough people desire blood to flow (especially from all the forum posts against H?). Draw your bows, unsheath your swords, and ready your horses, it has been declared and the diplomatic and magic attacks have already begun. With respect to issues of a Consone nature - Dlords has had our share of Consone alliances trying to intimidate us as well through threats of them getting Consone involved. Get into a small altercation and it gets thrown out.. Oh yeah, well let's see what Consone has to say about it. Dlords has said it then and we say it again.. we don't care what Consone thinks nor are we afraid of Consone or any other group out there. Don't threaten us with Consone. I have often wondered what it would have been like if the Dwarven Lords had never confederated with H?. :D OH my it would have been a bloody but beautiful battle for the history books. But unfortunately for both sides but great as well, we confederated with them back during the White war and stood with them against others seeking power back then and have remained loyal and true friends and Oath Honorers to whom we have given them. Many just don't understand nor appreciate such things such as their word. Not blindly following but watching and appraising. We have only broken our oath of fidelity to one alliance (as did H?) and that was the Knights of Ni, when their leader left and the alliance went rogue and broke their oaths with MK members. After trying to get them to stop and to honor their word, H? and DLord both broke our ties with them and threatened to attack on behalf of those left from the previous battle we just came through. From there they stopped and created TMM.. and we all know that story.. but guess who fought their old allies.. H? and Dlord. The above is a brief history of Dlord and that we love to fight/war and we love to help with peace. Make no mistake, we love them both equally. But we have in the mix now, an unbalanced opposition and in fact our own friends involved.. so you can bet, The Dwarven Lords are there - Smiling. Now everyone can please stop the babbling ... get in it or not it.. but keep the rhetoric to yourselves if at all possible. There is a saying in a sandbox - Put up or shut up. When a Dwarf makes an oath, you can guarantee we will stand up to anything put before us on behalf of our friends, even when it is 10 against 2 or worse.
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Posted By: Gon
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 17:09
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I think the main difference is in the manner of aid sent. I am a big fan of the way H? goes about most of their opperations. In paticular they hold the responsable parties accountable for their decisions (military, diplomatic, ect.). That's why this whole affiar confuses me. H? sent aid to RHY who was sieging players who were not involved with the initial clashes between RHY and ABSA. If the sieges were all involving the players who attacked RHY or taunted them I think there would be less question as to motives. These are my thoughts and do not reflect either the feelings of my alliance or Confederations.
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 17:12
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[15 Oct 12:07]<System> ** News Flash: The Siege of Harrys Fifth belonging to Harry Gihan [RES] by Skorn [WE] has begun
Clear and convincing evidence of Consone's unbridled ambition.  |
Posted By: Loud Whispers
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 17:21
Bottom line is all I've met with consone are nice people. All I've met with H? are nice people. Both sides are hardly the vicious warmongers they paint each other to be. The war is an overreaction of both sides.
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Posted By: Vanerin
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 17:42
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I very much agree with you Loud Whispers. ~Vanerin
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Posted By: scaramouche
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 19:38
BIG BROTHER is watching YOU...  ------------- NO..I dont do the Fandango! |
Posted By: Uno
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 21:25
I don't know if someone does but I do now a whole alliance who doesn't: it is the one called Harmless?, since it was them to prepare and start this war, as you can read in the OP. Anyways, I find your comparison of H? helping RHY against Absa and Absa helping SkB against RHY to be quite hilarious. ------------- Eréc of Caer Uisc King of Dyfneint Indomiti Alliance |
Posted By: Alvartalur
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 22:39
Exactly. That was my point about different playing styles, and why I argue for a PvE/Tournament server. Though I know it will never gonna happen, of course.
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Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 22:56
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This game is lost as it is, its become a social media network instead of a fantasy medevial"ish" game. Because people have put a minute here and there and unfortunately real money for some into this game, they become too emotionally attached and then get peeved when someone else dares to use most of the games inventory for what it was designed to do "ahem" military.
They then, fearful that someone would hold power with a substantiale military force, worry that someone will destroy their time and money, so they unify to combat what they percieve as a threat. Once they obtain enough power, they may look for a chance to eliminate those that worried them , those that they percieved as a threat to their time and money spent.
Human Nature, at it's finest. ------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 04:52
You know EF, I thought you were solidly in the anti-Consone camp, but I'm not sure if you're referring to H?, Consone, or just people in general. Maybe I've got you pegged all wrong; you're against training alliances, old insurmountable alliances, paranoid warmongers, people that always try to talk their way out...maybe you just don't approve of anyone?
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Posted By: STAR
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 05:43
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I would also have to agree with the poster that Consone was probably not expecting the support from H? with the Rhy and Absa situation and am pretty sure it would have come as a shock to them. I am guessing that things may have escalated for the worst in Rhys behalf if H? did not come forward as their "silent confederate". It was interesting to read that fact in the Absa and Rhy thread before this situation had escalated to the point it is at now. What i find interesting most of all is this situation, personally i dont think it should have gotten this far if Consone had done and stuck to what they had publicly declared when they officially announced the Consone confederacy. They are spose to be a band of "peaceful" alliances and yet they find themselves in a War each side declaring their own ideals of game play. Weather or not it was a ploy to gain an upper hand over the other is anyone's guess. It really should not come as a surprise to any H? members that H? would be branded the "bad guy" and it really should not come as a surprise to others that H? will defend what they think is right, rather prepare yourselves for what is to come since words are not going to stop what is already in motion. What ever the outcome, Good luck to both sides |
Posted By: Daunt
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 06:55
I don't think that is necessary. I certainly lean toward the PvE style, and games like Evony hold no interest for me, but a pure crafting game probably wouldn't work for me either (not that I have found a good one -- maybe Puzzle Pirates). If the game turns into "the top 3 guilds bully everyone else" I'll quit, but I don't really see that happening.
I think people actually appreciate that already. A guild that just tries to make roads from sovereignty wouldn't be interesting if that was the goal of the game. It's fun because they can exercise their creativity when so many other people want to fight. Even the propaganda and arguments make for a great part of the game. (
 Alert -- Biased opinion coming ) In this conflict one side primarily has guilds with a stated military purpose and the other primarily has RP or PvE stated purposes and yet both claim the other is the clear aggressor. It's pretty great to watch because that's how things really play out in international diplomacy. And just like international diplomacy all the blustering is largely futile because the few people who are not partisan don't really care about justice, but want to either be left alone or join the winning side. |
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 07:06
I can understand people that don't want to get involved (does seem a risky business ti take a side, and then end up on the losing side), but do you think this war will mean good recruitment for anyone involved? Also, would anyone in their right mind accept new unknown members during the course of the war?
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Posted By: Daunt
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 09:19
I didn't mean that recruitment will increase, but that guilds might opportunistically join an alliance to gain some benefit. Like if two small neighboring guilds have an uneasy peace and one starts being attacked by an alliance, the other might join that alliance, or at least join in the fight against his neighbor.
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Posted By: Garth
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 09:57
This is why I affectionately like to call EF Illy's resident contrarian :) (and now he's trapped, because he can't say "no I'm not"
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Posted By: Rasak
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 10:26
This is the thing I was trying to state for all the anti-H? people (vocal majority) in other threads. If you leave out the alliance names when you are speaking about one side or another its extremely difficult if not impossible to tell which side they are talking about. What I think this means is that both sides are behaving closely in mirror image of each other. I do think that Consone has done far more to escalate the situation tho. After all in most cases they were the first to do something that pushed for war. While H? tried to tell everyone early on that any outside involvement would be met with their armies.
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Posted By: Southern Dwarf
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 10:43
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I just wish that people would realize that none of these threads are able to help brokering a peace. If you are all so eager to see a war fight yourself one but restrain from instigating something where people who don't want to fight have to suffer from your propaganda. ------------- Also known as Afaslizo ingame. |
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 15:11
I'm not sure the goal of any of these threads is to magically bring peace. When it comes down to it, the only people that can do that are the people that let it get this big, and I suppose that would be all the alliance leaders involved. And as far as I can tell, besides Grego (and that's just speculation based on one post), parties involved don't seem to have that very high on the agenda. I suspect most neutral parties, and perhaps players in general, don't bother to come to these forums (and maybe just skip 56+ page posts entirely). Personally, I don't mind the constant bombardment of (sometimes sub-par) propaganda. I consider this war to be generally against the best interests of Elgea as a whole. However, as a fairly new player, it's infinitely helpful in shining light in all the dark corners. Imagine how much people without set-in-stone opinions are taking away from this. I've already learned a great deal about all parties involved simply by how they present themselves. And I suspect that before the dust settles, I'll learn a great deal more.
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Posted By: Silverlake
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 04:40
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I just wanted to share my perspective on this war... For me, it has been very stressful for the past few months of having to assist in matters of what I consider bullying… where a stronger player takes advantage of a smaller player in terms of harvesting, city locations, resources, and intimidation. I actually wrote a post about it, but did not initially mention names. Almost all of these matters were in response to an action taken by a Consone member. And in some of these instances, the issues were not involving big against small, they were between equals, yet one always played the "I'm in Consone card," which can be very intimidating. To make matters worse, Consone leadership was informed of these matters but failed to take corrective actions, some ignored the issues, and some where down right dismissive… and nothing got resolved, it just keep building up and up. I know I am not the only one who had to deal with these issues, some choose to remain silent as not to offend. In my opinion, Consone never got their idea of this utopia through to their players and then failed to correct negative behaviors, some players boasted about size and strength and did what they wanted, and some Consone alliances actually posted rules about what they expect from other players when it came to harvesting but they violated the same rules when it came to their players harvesting by another player’s city. For me personally, the final straw was when Absa drew first blood with Rhy. What happened next we all know, enter VIC, enter H, enter EE, enter Frost, enter Druid, every body and their sister entered (LOL)... So you have one person’s opinion and reason for standing with his alliance. All the beautiful words in world, and all the elegant expressions of peace and harmony, do not change the past facts… several members of Consone failed to live up to its high standards, and several leaders in Consone turned a blind eye. I have never considered myself part of a server police squad, but a reasonable person can only stand so much. Now I know I can rhetorically lash out at people I find hypocritical, or overly verbose, but this is different, no one should have the right to take and kill without suffering the consequences. edit: for grammar, oooops
 ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/57338" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 05:55
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Some follow-up questions to what Silverlake was saying above (I really don't want to quote his whole post, just read it): 1) Have peoples' past unsavory experiences with Consone not gone quite as far as the ABSA/RHY mine incident? That is to say, were military losses not previously incurred? 2) Can anyone explain to me what the Consone command structure actually looks like? I get the impression that Jasche is the point-of-contact for things, but what happens after that? 3) Does this mean that H? is the new Illy-police? It sounds like people are already taking their problems over there, and now they're seeking justice/vengeance/whatever for a group they accuse of bullying.
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Posted By: SunStorm
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 06:14
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 06:26
My conclusion is that Consone is a snake pit.
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 09:13
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Speaking (unofficially in some cases) for the aggrieved parties we represent, I can say issues with Consone usually did not involve any major losses of troops. Rather, the entity within Consone perpetrating the issue simply took what he wanted and the aggrieved felt unable to mount any effective resistance. I know of only one time where someone in Consone tried this kind of stunt and didn't get his way, and that was when a member of Harmless was the intended victim. A large portion of the incidents were also simply cases of aggressive territorial encroaching by harvesting/gathering units and/or the unwarranted destruction of such in neutral territory. Given that we could not be so easily bullied, our issues directly involving Harmless were usually great in quantity rather than magnitude. More grievous offenses were reserved for far weaker foes (including players in Toothless and DLords, BTW--alliances possessing our very oldest military pledges of support). ------------- "Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now." - HonoredMule |
Posted By: Arian
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 12:07
Just out of curiosity do you conclude the same about Crowfed? From everything I have read each Crowfed alliance also makes it's own decisions. So can you explain the difference to me? ------------- 'Do you want ice with that?' |
Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 13:02
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Interesting that Jasche would say Consone has no leader. We had an issue with Dwarven Druids, they ran to Consone and Jasche took over as leader of Consone in our discussions. So it seems that Jasche is leader of the Consone Confed only when it's convenient? ------------- CEO, Harmless? Founder of Toothless? "Truth never dies." -HonoredMule |
Posted By: Southern Dwarf
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 13:04
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Perhaps more like chief diplomat than "ruler" . . . ------------- Also known as Afaslizo ingame. |
Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 13:53
lol, yea sure, if you say so, our communications with him didn't reflect that statement. ------------- CEO, Harmless? Founder of Toothless? "Truth never dies." -HonoredMule |
Posted By: Silverlake
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 15:46
From my own personal experience, I have alway found the individual leaders of each crow alliance to be responsive, fair, and honorable. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/57338" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Southern Dwarf
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 15:54
------------- Also known as Afaslizo ingame. |
Posted By: Le Roux
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 19:06
As someone with fingers in the pie of a few crows, I would like to believe that while each Crow wing is indeed very independent, we share common ethics that should make us appear consistent and (hopefully) reasonable across the board. Should a wing get out of balance, i sense the community would indeed let us know ; )
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Posted By: Faenix
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 19:48
I have never seen nCrow or CrowW run to Crow or mCrow (examples only, nothing implied by my choice of these specific Crow alliances) so that they might get their way with a questionable endeavor. They each function independently, if you have issues with one you can address it and resolve it with the specific wing you have an issue with. As an example, KCrow felt it appropriate to intervene in the defense of STEEL during our (NC) engagement with them. It was never threatened that KCrow would involve other Crowfed members if things didn't go their way. No other Crow alliances involved themselves in the situation as long as it didn't escalate. I am sure that if NC had brought in confederates then KCrow would have made requests as well, which is the way that escalation works.
Evidence presented already in these threads indicates the same is not true of Consone membership. |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 20:01
Who is your in game account?
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Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 20:15
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I do feel that the forum accounts should in some way be tied to in game accounts, if you don't put your in game name as your forum name, put it in your signature.
------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Jane DarkMagic
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 23:53
With Rill helping to lead two wings, how could we hope to get away with bullying even if we wanted to. She scares us all way too much!
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Posted By: Silverlake
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 00:04
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OH Jane, Mister DrakMagic is a lucky man ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/57338" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 02:20
OK... I always find your threads hard to read, but I'll try anyway Any negotiations I got involved (especially big ones, like expensive mine disputes with DLords) were settled diplomatically in the end. Yes, there had been military incidents, but mostly when both sides simultaniously had the idea of protecting their gatherers with troups (always a bad idea IMO...). Possible solutions had been shared harvesting (complicated to organize), swaping with other resource plots (you mine this one, you get that one), or even backing down in some nonstrategical cases. Especially those incidents with DLords had been tricky discussions around some difficulties in their 10 square policy for res plots. But to my knowledge, those had been stated as RESOLVED by BOTH sides.
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Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 09:00
It seems to me that a lot of the responsibility for diplomatic talks (successful or otherwise) should fall to the diplomats and parties involved. But for some reason, that aspect seems to have been almost completely ignored, and instead Consone as a whole got blamed very quickly (suspiciously so, in fact). I can see how that could happen, particularly if the Consone chain-of-command is very uncertain, which seems to be the case. Who knows, maybe this really did spiral out of control and suck everyone in, and there really aren't some ulterior motives driving it all (that would be a hard sell to me, tho). At some point though, isn't everyone going to have to take a step back and calm down and assess who (if anyone) should be held most accountable for this? Obviously everyone is at fault for the continual escalations, but there seem to be some individuals directly related to the original mine incident that particularly dropped the ball. Unfortunately for the Consone rationale, most of the individuals fall on that side of the battle-lines.
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 15:07
In every war, there are reasons and trigger points, and in most cases, they aren't the same. Trigger point undoubtly was this mine incident... Set a rare mine between two cities, take out your watch and note the time it takes until the first incident... The reason for this war, I'm sure, hasn't been this mine, nor SkB, ABSA, RHY, or Consones actions about it. H? stated nearly immediately after founding of Consone, that Consone is percieved as competitor, maybe even a threat. Diplomatic relations to member alliances went icy, small disputes became hard to discuss, as almost always, sentences like "We would have negotiated, but now you are in Consone..." appeared instantly. Consone had skipped many strange "incidents" with H?, also several accusations, insults, etc. as we knew H? was prepared for war, and only searching for some point, where they could get onto us without all the bad PR a direct attack would bring. The (originally) small struggle between ABSA and RHY would have been over soon, and looking on former disputes, most likely via counting damages, stating, it turns out equal, and then discussing about that mine again. But having such a dispute, while evryone had their armies marching off to tournament plots, must deemed H? as an early birthday present. They would have been silly, not to take this unique constellation to become active. Oh, and all that talk by KP about players not being able to join White is correct! I'm one of the oldest players in VIC at the moment, and when I started, White was in peaces already. Everything I remember of White are Diablitos silly, racistic insulting and totally MAD posts in forum. To my knowledge, VIC even was founded by those players in Danger! not even WANTING to join White. Thus peaceful from the start. So PLEASE don't connect us to those warmongering madmen. |
Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 15:16
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Hora I think you all may have meant well when founding Consone, but it would have been better to form just one alliance of able players with respective wing alliances and not push things out on this meta-game level where everything becomes a blurr. It undermines everyones ability to trust fellow players as I see it. Thats bad for Illy. Anyway, I think I've voiced my opinion on this matter enough, Iacta alia est. |
Posted By: belargyle
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 17:01
This is not to be rude but ... Dlord's has never negotiated anything with Consone, only those alliances that are a part of the Consone Confed. Many don't seem to grasp the fact that an alliance in ConFed with Consone is NOT Consone itself. Regarding negotiations with Consone we in fact refused to speak with Consone over issues were the Consone group could have come in if they wished. The reason mostly revolved around the fact that Consone (as a group) was most often brought up in the initial conversation as bully tactic, that if we did not do what the other party wanted they would call in Consone. We told them as we did two in other incidents where they stated they would bring in Consone (implying to make us acquiesce to their wants).. we do not fear Consone nor anyone else in this game however we will not deal with Consone because this is a matter between you and us. But I do agree.. the discussions were tricky and they resolved themselves, and most specifically of note was HATH of EE and his working with us and making sure His alliance was not shafted in the process. There was even a point when it come to military action for a short time and about 100K troops were lost in total. Neither was 100% satisfied but neither was deprived entirely either. That is where real diplomacy comes into play. An unfortunate event happened at the end where the player at issue left the alliance, but even then it worked itself out with the other alliance. And yes.. all issues have been resolved, and Dlord is meticulous in the wording and understanding of such contracts.. so we can be real a real A** and stickler about specific things. Such are battlefields of negotiations. While Consone, in and of itself, has not (to my knowledge) done anything overtly negative prior to this war, it is the actions of some in the group that gives Consone a bad taste in the mouth if not out right anger toward them for allowing such to happen. Everyone in Consone are representatives of Consone. Thus, to quote "Remember the Titans" - "Actions reflect leadership". If these things are allowed then you agree, and you stand behind those decisions as a group even though they are made by individuals.. same as with alliances. An incident alone by an individual does not make the alliance responsible as a whole. However if that alliance accepts and defends or in the very least does nothing about the 'said' incident, they have agreed with and support the action of the individual thereby making the alliance NOW a part of the issue at hand. They have given licence to act in the manner displayed with their consent and approval thus final authority of the act goes back to the alliance in question.
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 17:11
A single alliance would have been easier to organize, thats true. But that never was our aim. We consist of several alliances, each with leaderships and history. Why taking them appart? As for becoming a blurr... We had some points stated right from the start: - Independent alliances, as long as they aren't wing to each other - Shared knowledge, intel and fun via separate forum (advantage: no trolls) - Diplomatic assistance: In conflicts, alliances not being part might still have the cold blood needed for constructiv diplomatic solutions. - Political impact in forums: We chose Jasche as Diplomat for voicing decisions made within the circle of the leaders of our member alliances. Nothing more, nothing less. - Mutual defense: A protocoll you can see in action atm All that was stated from the start, thus I don't see your point on how this should hinder anyone trusting his fellow player. Just because some didn't think we would stay true to this points doesn't equal us not being trustworthy.
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Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 18:30
Hurm.. yes we can see all those points in effect. ------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 21:00
I'm sure you think you can claim that safely with Warrior Bunny no longer being around, but we both know that many in VIC wanted to throw their weight onto the side of White/Black during that war... |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 23:28
Did you even read my post? There are hardly any players in here, that were even in Illy during that war! And those that were, had some 100 pop by the time the war was over. Further, I don't know since when you developed mind reading skills... choosing an alliance not taking part in a conflict surely proves they very badly wanted to take you down And to make sure: Anyone saying yes to any post by Diablito would be shot out of any Consone alliance immediately! Head first!
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