I think this is not ONLY a wargame but its CORE IS a strategic wargame for sure.

The economy is basad on troops used, without troops killed there would not been any economy at all (no need of anything) and the game would have died in less than 6months.

Just imagine a bug where you can't do any military movement for a year....

That's why without real  wars devs added tournments.

And dimplomacy if not for fear of attacks would not be needed and so lot less developped, just see players activities under wars or tournments....

A game designed not as a wargame is lot different, would involve lot of resource consumed by cities, population  managment, more like sim-city.

Opinions?

Just my 2c

I do not want to talk about what it's happening now, it's a general discussion that might be valid from now to the end of illyriad!

NO! It's a game! But let's split the discussion:

http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/illyriad-is-a-game_topic4313.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/illyriad-is-a-game_topic4313.html

I respect myself every morning Rill but enjoy play a wargame. This is not my life for sure

Actually i'm not talking of players wars, that might be NPC fights too.

But this is a war game, wihout fights there would be no game at all.

And sandbox is not an excuse, there's no game in an emty sandbox...

For majority of human history war was considered pinnacle of all human activities, because to be triumphant in war you need to develop every aspect of society... good economy, technology, science, diplomacy, trade,... There are many competent scientific theories that claim human interspecies hostility is the most important factor in development of human intelligence...

This  was a major theme in almost all of Frank Herbert's books.  

Withou any attack NPC or player, there would be no economy, all the economy is based on troops equipment or creation or upkeep.

Without troops lost no one would need anything in the market, so no one would sell.

I do not say a game could not work without fights, but illyriad is build on them.

You do no need to provide dresses or special food to your population! No chair, no teathres.

All is based on military.

Let's NOT split the discussion.  It's a game, but there are elements of sportsmanship that make the game more or less fun, and our choice to make the game fun or not for others reflects who we are.

There are not only two possible ummm ... positions.  Someone get this guy a copy of the Kama Sutra.

Another "position" is that people can talk among themselves about what constitutes fun and try to reach mutual respect in which many different groups can have fun.

This is not about having fun or not in a war game.

Rill, if I want to reflect who I am in a game, I will not play a game that allow someone to attack others. Although I like war game, I am against war in RL.

Imagine if someone join Illyriad and then say that killing animal is cruel, accusing that all of us are bad guys because of that and demand devs to remove features to kill animals.

Rill the title is "War game or not?" 

A chat is a sandbox game. Illyriad is sandbox game. Minecraft is a sandbox game.

This do not change the game meccanics, you can play peacefull in illyriad only becouse someone else is not.

Again consider what whould be this game with a bug that stop any troops movement forever.

The game structure is what it is right now, having fun or not does not change things.

I feel the same way as Drejan and KillerPoodle with respect to my game play.  This game is at its maximum level of challenge and fun when you are engaging in combat against others.  With PvP combat comes multiple levels of strategy not limited to military itself.  

Remember folks, your cities are DIGITAL.  Relax and enjoy the ride.

SB

If you want to argument against wargame you should tell me for exaple what kind of economy in illyriad is not based on military usage!

After this new server is created, all old Illyriad players may choose which server he will stay. After that, I hope no one complain anymore in "war enabled" server when someone / alliance attack him.

I played a game where we have a war every 3-4 months. After that, alliances cancel and create new pacts with other alliances and make new blocs and building their armies to be ready for new war. It is really fun. Sometime an alliance even help it's enemy alliance to recover so they can have another war faster.

In my other game, sometimes alliances make funny reason as a reason of war. I laughed very loud when I read their war declaration threads. 

-Mysteries required troops or diplo in almost all events.

-Magic for what? Attack enemy cities or bless our to support more troops? Even future magic is about battle magic...

-Building again for what? I've not said this only war game but again if this would have been a build game devs would have introduced lot of things that usually you see in manager or sim-city games!

And you did not anwer to my question about economy.

Many people over look one of the deeper portions of the game and see only the surface 'war' (defined as physical attack to destroy units, or castle of another player). A LARGE part of Illy is the community and thus diplomacy is what this game is equally about. This is the part that flows beneath the surface of the game and keeps it moving. It is the secret blood of the Illy animal. Not many really understand the game because they leave this side out, which is like covering one of your own eyes - making you half blind.

What is right is typically right in the one who is describing their position, whether you agree or not. Truth is not relative, but opinions on what that truth might be, are.

This game has a FULL history of people making half baked claims to justify actions, and the truth is most often half the community will agree with you and half the other. Their are those rare events where everyone looks at you like you are the village idiot, though.. and those 'have' happened in the past.. and those alliances are no longer with us. (TMM is a good example)

Again, just stating that diplomacy is as equal a part of the game as war and peace.

But even if, good you'r having fun in a war game without using troops, good for you, this make the game not war-game?

I agree, Diplomacy is really fun in illyriad, but it's a direct conseguence of troops, you would not see this level of diplomacy or propaganda without war meccanics! 

I'm not talking of how people like to have fun, what i think is the game basic meccanics are a war-game one. Anyone is than free to play as he like.

I disagree, not with "the game is what we make it", but with "it reflects who we are". This is patently untrue.. it reflects how we play not who we are. 

It's a game, so playing as we enjoy allows us to respect ourselves in the morning. Now whether or not 'you' respect them, that is another story altogether.

A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle.

You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may(or may not) think it reflects who you are.

That's why everybody should have the right to do what he want to do in this game, as long as it is not against Dev's rules.

If someone like to hit weaker players, go ahead, send your army to hit them.

If someone like to protect weaker players, go ahead, send your army to protect them.

What is not allowed is if someone in forum disallow other players to do an action while Devs do not ban that action.

For example, player A play in Illyriad. He doesn't build army at all. Someday player B attack him. Player A can post in forum, asking for help from other players, but he doesn't allowed to ban player B from attacking him. Don't forget that in Illyriad, server allowed players to attack other players. Other players may help players A, other players even are allowed to siege all of Player B towns, kick him out of this game, since server allow that action. Player B cannot say that you may not siege all of my towns since server allow that. Player B can post in forum asking from help. If no one want to help him, then he has to accept that all of his town are gone.

Please don't make rules in a game, Devs make rules, not players.

The question is not whether the game *is* a wargame.

The only thing that Illy absolutely 100% *is* is a building game. Because if you sign up and then refuse to ever build a building, you can do *nothing*. So, you have to build.

After that

1) It COULD BE a war game for you.

2) It COULD BE a trading game for you. (You could actually stop building as soon as you had a trader in a Hub, and just play the trading only, and I'm sure that if I got into it I could spend longer with the trade system than I now do with troops.)

3) And to a lesser degree it could be about crafting, exploration, magic, etc. as YOU choose (as people like Scribes play it.)

Lets unpack the wargame aspect of it. Once you have decided to play the game as a wargame, you can then choose:

1a) It COULD be a PvE wargame for you. (But not with much interest at present.)

1b) It COULD be a consensual PvP game. (This is how I play it. And I can attest that this is WAY more fun that facing the steamroller of a bunch of vets.)

1c) It COULD be a non-consensual PvP game.

What is unique about 1c is that this choice alone - and it is a choice - can rob other people of their choices.

If in KP's analogy, I am presented with a toy catapult as I walk on to a beach, then I have the choice of whether or not to take it and if so what else to do with it. (I could do all sorts of things with it - re-engineer it to make it better, set up my own targets to shoot it at, whatever - or I could do something else on the beach.)

Kurdruk

PS Ander - "A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may(or may not) think it reflects who you are." That is not only true, it's actually profoundly thought-provoking. Do you mind if I steal it?

1) Caravans bug: every caravans or trader is not working for 1 year

2) Magic is not working for a year

3) Troops and diplomats are not working for a year

what you think would effect the actual gameplay more?

For me 3rd, not becouse i do like it but becouse other 2 are bind to the 3rd.

LOL - yeah, typo fixed ;-)   Thanks!

Yeah obviously. I am also a military player. But I do not stamp on other peoples' sandcastles and call it fun.

In the last 2 years I have:

* Fought in several tournaments (including 1 individual category victory + 1 alliance overall victory)

* Organised several consensual PvP mini-tourneys (which were the most fun I've had in Illy)

* Broken or helped to break at least a dozen sieges launched by "non-consentual PvP wargamers"

* Also helped break a siege that I shouldn't have broken (because the target of the siege was himself a predator - ooops - lesson learned, get information before marching!)

* Tracked down 2 players who were predating on small players, destroyed their wall (not pop buildings) and then had a full and frank "now explain how you will say sorry to the people you've stolen from" conversation

I have not been bored.

Using troops in Illy does not require one to impose non-consensual PvP on the game.

(Edited to remove potentially over-stating my achievements!)

I think you are free to enjoy as you like but the structure of the game is of a war-game for me.

And as for me, i settled all my cities and i can't remember a succesfull siege i did on an active player in 2 years, and i'm almost sure i'm one of the top 50 most active military player of illyiriad.

If devs allow us to attack other players city then all players have to be ready to get attacked.

You can protect yourself by building your troops or rely on your friends' troops but please don't say to your aggressor that you may not attack my city.

For example, I don't harvest, I don't craft. Is that mean that I can complain if someone attack me with troops that use crafted weapons? Can I disallow them to use crafted weapons against me?

I am not more powerful than Devs, if devs allow other players to attack me by crafted weapons then I have to accept that.

Another one mixing real life with games.

Some game have a pvp flag, and can be really played with different styles.

This one doesn't have a pvp flag, so, you can decide not to use armies or even build them, but you are still pvp on, and could not be surprised if a neighbor send you thieves or armies...

What makes the game interesting is the metagame which made possible to play those peaceful styles with great chances to survive happily. This makes this game great.

But, as it is possible to make war, it is ALSO a war game.

i wonder if this doesn't miss the point.  without more information, we must consider that shooting a catapult at someone else's castle may be exactly the purpose of the beach.  we simply don't know.  the children on the beach must decide what constitutes fair behaviour, and if they do not they will resort to tribalism and vendetta to interact, much as illy does when the norms break down (e.g., rare resources).

peace is not a right.  peace takes work.  i hear players complain about the politics in illyriad.  they should understand that the politics that take place in peace are, for long periods, the very things that avert war.  the irritating conventions that keep each player from doing just as he or she pleases are the very things that keep the illyriad server unnaturally free of conflict.  those conventions are formed of agreements and compromises made over successive hours by players who love peace and are prepared to put in the time to achieve it.

in times of conflict it must be considered that one player's justice is another's bullying.  the actions are often the same, and in the absence of a prearranged moral consensus, only the players involved can know their own motivations.

+1

Thank you for this.

Yes, peace takes work. You can get peace through your soldiers, you also can get peace through talks that backed by your soldiers. No soldiers, no peace. This is what happened in RL, this is also what happened in Illyriad.