Dark Empire Writ of Notice-War Declaration ~NC~
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4253
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 14:35
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Dark Empire Writ of Notice-War Declaration ~NC~
Posted By: Sisren
Subject: Dark Empire Writ of Notice-War Declaration ~NC~
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 03:30
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Dark Empire Directions Dark Empire has been part of the STEEL and ~NC~ conflict since being contacted on 5 Sept 2012, when contacted to assist in the diplomatic reinforcement of several STEEL cities. Dark Empire forces have been in use since this time, and have experienced both gains and losses. Being contacted by STEEL, a trade partner, and having been scouted on several occasions by loyalists of the Night Crusaders, it is no surprise to either party that Dark Empire has been involved. Since this time, several members of Dark Empire have fallen victim to Diplomatic attacks. This seems coincidental, however we do not believe in coincidences that after having reinforcements scouted by an unknown (~NC~ had not declared it was their work yet), that we were also Diplomatically attacked several times. The vectors of the attacks, while not clearly and concisely identified, were approx. 13 degrees from the Alliance Capital, and 12-13 degrees from the capitals of 3 Dark Empire officers. Coincidence - we believe not so. Dark Empire is a process-driven alliance, and one such process is our Fetiales -Process of Making War. We have clearly identified our Targets, Prohibitions, as well as who in Dark Empire will perform the tasks. We have communicated our intentions to our partners, and clearly communicated to Dark Empire's membership. It would be fitting that, given the situation as it has stood, this being the final step - to clearly communicate to the opposition that of our intentions in this matter. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Replies:
Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 03:33
I was surprised. ------------- Eternal Fire |
Sisren wrote:Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 03:34
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Perhaps a better term would have been 'it should not surprise many' ? ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 03:36
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Does this mean we can't be friends? ------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 03:39
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No, I don't think there is a prohibition on that. We might be at war, but we do not hate or feel annoyed by ~NC~. They have made it interesting these past few evenings. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 03:40
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oh im not in NC but i have friends in there and your my friend. ------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 04:08
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I don't hate your friends there, I'm just not friends with them yet. I've actually grown to like Faenix, he's a funny guy :) ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 05:43
I don't understand. What do you mean your members have fallen victim? Your alliance involved itself in a conflict and then you suffered consequences for it in for form of diplomatic attacks. I'm fine if you want to declare war but I don't understand why would use the word victim when you got involved first? -------------  |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 05:52
| Indeed Sisren you should have said "Since then we discovered that our members had joyfully volunteered to entertain various diplomatic representatives in our cities." |
Posted By: Vibs
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 05:54
| I seem to be a little late to the party. Hats off to Dark and Mannanan in taking an initiative. KCrow will back STEEL, Dark and Mannanan in this war. |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 06:28
Well if you don't want to be attacked don't get involved in a war. As I said, it's fine they're getting involved but the use of the word victim seems misplaced. ------------- |
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 08:36
Is this an official thing, or one of those "with you in spirit" type things?
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Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 11:10
People not involved with the reinforcement operation were attacked. Victim is quite apt. You are free to have a different view, naturally. :) YMMV ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Vibs
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 11:44
STEEL is a close trading partner for KCrow. KCrow will not allow any STEEL city to fall. Our armies will be ordered to defend any STEEL city as and when it is required.
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Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 13:58
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Does that mean other crow alliances will back Kcrow then? ------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 14:47
Well that's a bit different, thank you for explaining that.
I can only speak for mCrow but we won't be getting involved. Jane did leave the alliance temporarily to give aid however, so you may see individual mCrow's getting involved. ------------- |
Posted By: Sir Bradly
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 14:59
This is a complete fabrication. NC has ONLY attacked Steel towns. 100% of all military attacks directed at Gimardoran's cities. If someone lost troops if was because they were present reinforcing a city of Gimardoran's. Sisren, please feel free to produce the combat report and send to someone neutral to verify this claim you have made. It is completely false. A weak attempt to conjure up more support for war declaration. Since you said "people" who are implying more than one person. So you should produce at least 2 combat reports. Anyone volunteer to look at this fictitious claim. Someone not attached to this conflict?
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Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 15:01
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I will take a look at the report and verify it's authenticity. Please forward the combat reports to me in-game. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Vanerin
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 15:08
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Sir Bradly, Perhaps you did not read properly what Sisren wrote. You speak of "100% of all military attacks directed at Gimardoran's cities" while Sisren said "...members of Dark Empire have fallen victim to Diplomatic attacks." I do not see Sisren claiming any military attacks on Dark, but I do not see you addressing the diplomatic attacks mentioned. ~Vanerin
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Posted By: Princess Xanax
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 15:18
We sent no diplo attacks on Dark. Scouts only, which is not an attack. But, believe what you will. |
Posted By: Sir Bradly
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 15:22
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Dark was scouted when Sisren gave public support to Gim and said they would help them out. So we scouted a few of the officers to see what the troop composition was. That is not an "attack". Either way, Sisren, please forward your documentation supporting your attack claims. Geofrey will review and post after reading them.
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Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 15:50
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So far I am no were in any way involved in this! But, as I remember correctly, if an alliance goes and singles out one member of another alliance (from previous history, if you don’t remember then….. I cannot say anything more for it would get me in trouble), it is an act of war against all members. As well if there is even clarification of intentions (like singling out a person to ‘Hurt’), this means a complete annihilation of that alliance (another thing I have learned in previous and resent history). At least that’s how I see it now. Ya I have No proof, or any involvement but as I know, ~NC~ has decided to wipe out an alliance, which from my knowledge isn’t allowed in the Illyriad community, otherwise supposable a month ago one alliance would have ‘Supposable’ (to Illyriads records of being able to predict the future) Annihilated another (which they will be nameless but one deals with Norse Mythology and a road that is long). As I said I have no idea what’s really going on but this is how I see it sense Illyriad community has convinced me that this is how I am supposed to see any form of war. Cause the community not involved is right…. Right? ------------- I am Responsible for what I say. I Am not responsible for what you understand. |
Posted By: Vanerin
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 16:00
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Taron, I think you might be in the wrong thread... This one appears to be about Dark's situation with NC. This is not about any perception of one alliance "bullying/annihilating/singling-out/etc" another one. Princess Xanax and Sir Bradly, Thank you for clarifying about the diplomats. ~Vanerin
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Posted By: Vibs
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 16:35
I don't speak for all the crows. Just KCrow. Our support of STEEL is independent as of now and is limited to defending STEEL cities.
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Posted By: belargyle
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 16:42
My nickles worth... If you send scouts or spies to most any of the alliances of Illy, it is considered an act of war and they will retaliate against it viciously. I'm just letting you know this before you try that little number on others and bite off more than you can chew. As far back as I can remember this has been a standard policy by most alliances. So to state it is not an 'attack' might be from your point of view, does not make it so from other side and they will respond in accordance with 'their' view. Just saying
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Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 16:57
I thin context is key here. If someone randomly spied or scouted one of my cities, I would sure like to find out who and why. But if I involved myself and my alliance in a conflict and it happened, I wouldn't be surprised. While some/all the members who were spied/scouted may not have been involved in it, how was NC suppose to know that? An alliance involved themselves in a conflict, so they're scouting them out and see what they're dealing with. If it had of been sabs, thieves or assassins, that would be another story but just scouts and spies? I think that's perfectly reasonable. ------------- |
Posted By: Vibs
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 17:31
I would differ in opinion. Agreed Dark got involved. But their involvement was restricted to defending STEEL cities. No offensive action was taken by them either diplomatically or militarily. Any diplo action against their home cities is an attack. Feel free to disagree with me people.
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Posted By: Sir Bradly
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 17:50
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Bottom line is Sisren claimed we attacked players who were not reinforcing Gim. Using the word "attacked" in that context is very deceiving. He left out the important details in order to attempt to further drum up support. That very point is what I am debating. DARK involved themselves in the reinforcement efforts. We would be fools to not scout them. They were at war with us before the declaration. A stance they choose. That fact that DARK has to try to deceive the community is just an embarrassment. I guess they feel they need more support.
We have made zero attempt to deceive anyone. We have been upfront and honest throughout the entire conflict. We have nothing to hide. |
Posted By: Sir A
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 17:55
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Forsooth! It is I Sir Angus the Cunning! I am not a huge fan of forums but the recent events between NC/STEEL have forced me to make an account on here. I have a few things I would like to say. Prepare yourselves Illyrians, for this may be a very long post! It is my belief, and I am sure I am not alone, that ~NC~ are warmongers in this peaceful realm. Being a knight of this fair realm and a friend of Gim I see it as my duty to intervene in this conflict. This conflict was one sided from the start. Even after NC posted on the forum that they were responsible for the diplo attacks on Gim, STEEL's response was to send caravans with resources to their towns. STEEL never had any intention of fighting back, even when NC forced their hand. If you want a fight so bad, you should start a fight with an alliance that wants one. I believe that NC has been planning this for some. Whereas this likely came as a surprise to STEEL. As such, NC is naturally more prepared for this fight then STEEL is. They've made it clear that their style of playing is militaristic, which is fine, after all that is one way to play the game. But when you go picking fights with an alliance who doesn't wan't to fight, you can't expect everyone to sit idly by while you attack them simply because their leader annoys you. I used to to play Travian where the stronger/older players farm the weaker players to take their resources. In Travian I think that is okay because it did not have nearly as much depth and there was an endgame. But Illyriad is quite different from Travian as I am sure every player that has played for at least a month knows. There is much more depth and having a huge military is only one way to play the game. I don't see why NC are complaining about DARK and other alliances helping STEEL, they are getting the war they wanted are they not? Honestly what did you really expect when you declared war on a player/alliance solely because you are bored and want to have fun, and their leader annoys you. You got what you asked for, stop complaining now that you are getting your fight from players that want to fight. Or do you only attack those that are not ready for a fight because you know you can win? You knew that the Illy community does not allow bullying, its not like its the first time the community has stood up for peaceful players. I was going to post some quotes from The Electrocutioners original post and the other "reasons" that NC provided after they got negative feedback from most people but I am out of time for now. All this being said, KCrow will support STEEL with words and actions. |
Posted By: Sir Bradly
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 18:07
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Just to be clear Sir Angus, NC is not complaining. We just trying to set the facts straight so the community can judge the conflict based on truth rather than deception. Everyone in the community is entitled to their opinion and certainly has a right to defend whomever they wish. We accept that. |
Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 18:17
I was just wondering, say hypothetically Kcrow starts losing in combat and starts losing cities, I didn't see other crow alliances watching them fall.
------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Sir A
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 18:27
And what are these facts? Just so there are no discrepancies with our understanding.
War is war, we are prepared for attacks on our cities, as far as other crow confeds joining in, we will let things unfold as they do.
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Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 18:28
I don't get the impression it will come to that, since KCrow has only committed themselves as far as defending STEEL cities (though, who knows, maybe they'll get in deeper later). Which, really, is the only rational way to approach the defense of Gim. Anything else seems like fighting fire with fire. Though, I suppose it is one way to end a war: start one and then win it. Guess we'll see how that turns out for DARK.
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Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 18:50
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Can we agree that sending troops or diplomats (attached to an army) to people in war with someone else constitutes as sending aid and therefor can be retaliated with attacks on the people who then sent said aid? ------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 18:55
Certainly. I hope you'd be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees. The question really becomes, does NC want to take things in that direction? Every impression I've been given is that they have eyes only for Gim. Or...you know what I mean.
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 19:12
All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. |
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 19:32
I still have no idea what NC's actual goal is in this incident, so I don't know what they hope to gain. Do they really want to wipe Gim off the map, or just humble him a bit?
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Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 19:59
Princess Xanax, I would like to thank you- you confirmed our suspicions that the origin was ~NC~. My reservation in this was that it was not, as Myr told me in IGM an attack from ~NC~. Imagine, had I believed Myr- it would have been bad. This gives me personally some relief at least... Oh, and a scout not being an attack... Yeah, you should reconsider that. Knowledge is power. Dark has always seen it as such, ask Myr. She was with for a bit. Au revoir ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 20:07
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Why bother sending reports you already have bradly? Xanax said nc sent them already. Speaking of facts, this occurred before you lot said you were attacking steel militarily. You are getting no reports, or further talk from Dark on that. ;) Bon appetit ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 20:26
| I wish you presented a more clear timeline, Sisren. I feel like this whole thread is about semantics over dubious wording. |
Posted By: Machete
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 20:47
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Greetings, Machete was in STEEL but is now in a STEEL Confed alliance. My alt is in STEEL. This is my opinion and not an official STEEL post. Mine and mine alone. I would like to point out that you don't see any STEEL members in here asking for explanations, time lines, who, what, when, where, etc. Notice Gim isn't in here doing it either. I am sure he is doing his behind the scene things that he always does. Its a game and I think most peeps in STEEL are having fun. I am. I hope everyone involved is. Trying to get a community agreement on anything in Illy is next to impossible (maybe the destruction of newbies is the only thing forbidden. I am sure there is at least one person in Illy that doesn't agree). ~NC~ has their reasons for attacking. You may agree or not or not fully understand. It doesn't matter. It is what it is. ~NC~ knows what their end-game is. I don't. Frankly, I don't need to know. Do I worry that I will lose troops and resources? Yes, I already have. Do I worry I will be attacked? Yes and I have been in communication with others via IGM and preparing. Do I worry I will be sieged out of the game? NO. If I felt that was going to happen, I would be posting in forums asking for help! Why did I post a reply? I felt the urge. So everyone can now parse my words for secret meanings, ask for explanations, etc. I won't reply. |
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 21:14
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Well, since Machete already said he wouldn't reply, I'll go ahead and draw conclusions instead of asking clarification questions. If members of STEEL aren't concerned about the issue, then why is DARK escalating things? I figure there are really only two plausible reasons: 1. Gim asked them to, and STEEL members are completely out of the loop. 2. DARK is taking the opportunity to trounce someone a third of their size without the community intervening. I feel like everything would make a lot more sense if NC and DARK were more forthcoming about their objectives. Everyone gives a little bit about how the conflict started, but absolutely nothing about how they intend to end it.
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Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 21:18
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Darmon, The threads sole purpose is to let NC know that Dark Empire is at war with them. Not to sway community attitude as Bradly suggested. Not to call out some causes belli. Nor is it about a few diplo attacks (although we do take that seriously). It's about peace. Why is it that the attacked when asking for peace trice, is ignored? Darks obligation is to let the other party know who will be attacking them. I can appreciate that certain other alliances are willing to wage a war without informing those they attack, but Dark follows a different path. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: BlindScribe
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 21:27
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 21:28
Actually, it seems like the thread's purpose is to let the community know that DARK has let NC know that they're at war now. Otherwise, couldn't you have just sent an IGM to NC leadership instead of posting it here in the forums for all to see? (Or, I guess all of NC, since there aren't that many of them...) Haven't DARK's military and diplomatic forces been involved to the point that NC is already aware of DARK's involvement and NC has countered by actively scouting DARK out? Do you need to have it in here because you think NC will accuse you of a surprise attack after the dust settles?
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Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 21:29
I seriously doubt anyone is going to believe a word of that. You don't post on a public forum to tell 10 people you're going to war with them. You send the leader a private message informing them of it and assume the leader will play his part and tell the rest of his alliance. ------------- |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 22:21
Or...and I'm just brainstorming here...You go to your Alliance Foreign Affairs and click the Declare War button.
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Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 22:26
I actually appreciate the public declaration, just not all the political posturing that came with it. Also, to take offense at the public's reaction to a public statement...
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Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 23:43
 Sadly that's not in my permissions.
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Posted By: Princess Xanax
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2012 at 23:48
Sisren, Thank you for making it obvious you have a beef with Myr that has absolutely nothing to do with this conflict. You may want to reconsider holding a grudge. Knowledge coupled with maturity is much more powerful than knowledge alone. The game itself does not identify scouting as a hostile attack. Interpreting it as such is up to the individual. Scouts & Spies are unaffacted by this rune, as their intentions are not specifically hostile. |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 00:53
You may have a point here, if I have to do this ever again, I will IGM the leadership involved as well as post to the forums. Thank you for pointing out this improvement to Dark's process. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 00:56
Well then Brids, consider it for the community's benefit. There are some that do want to comment on everything. At the time, this was the best way that we could stay compliant with our own process, believe it or not. Darmon, to which I replied, also added the above and we will amend accordingly. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 01:06
Perhaps you didn't understand the above. I will dumb it down more. Scouts and Spies gather information, they register as a Red diplomatic movement. Red = attack, information = what is gained from the attack. Is that more understandable? Others I believe also suggested the same. Darks position on Scouts and Spies being stated here, and this not being the primary cause of the fiasco, no further comment will be from Dark on this. gracias e adios amiga ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 01:12
The_Dude, that was done prior to this post hitting the forums. Also, per above we are remediating our process to include a more private writ of notice. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Faenix
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 01:36
Dark can believe in Santa Clause for all we care, doesn't mean he's going to bring you presents come Christmas. As PX mentions, the game itself describes scouts and spies as non-hostile. The description for the Ward of Destruction research states "Scouts and Spies are not affected by this rune because their intentions are not specifically hostile." Look up "attack" in the dictionary and you'll find a few definitions: 1) to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/set" rel="nofollow - set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way,with or without a weapon 2) to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: Since "attacks" are hostile, and scouts and spies are "not specifically hostile" .. One cannot attack with scouts. But enough arguing over what the definition of "is" is. |
Posted By: SunStorm
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 01:43
Scouting and spying is usually done in preparation for war - especially if one alliance is scouting another alliance that is directly involved in a conflict. It seems to me that NC wanted to know what they would be up against if DE entered the battle full force... This is not to say that NC were planning on attacking - but regardless, this was an action made to prepare for war rather than an action made to prevent war. Sad really... Best of luck to all parties involved. -------------
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Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 02:01
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Oh, has this turned into constructive feedback regarding DARK's process? Well then I have a complaint/suggestion. After reading this bit...
...I was left somewhat wanting. I was hoping you'd fill in those blanks for us, but maybe all the interesting bits were kept inside DARK or directed towards NC for a reason. For example, I can see the strategic benefit of not sharing who in DARK is handling what (that sure would save NC a lot of time and effort with scouting/spying, huh?). It's mostly the parts about "prohibitions" and "intentions" that were disappointing. As far as everyone knows, your goal is to eliminate NC's ability to make war on Gim -- by capturing or razing all their cities (since that seems the default worst-case scenario assumption around here, and also the best way to ensure someone no longer poses a threat). And likewise, who knows what the end-condition for NC's conflict with Gim is -- would wiping him off the map really stop his "meddling" (not sure what that actually entails, since I'm new-ish and don't know him well), or are they actually striving for a less tangible goal? They seem to be intentionally quite vague when it comes to specifics. I'm guessing more realistically (and please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth) the ultimate goal for DARK is to put pressure on NC and force them to abandon their operations against Gim, and the WMDs that are siege units are more of a last-resort? Or have people around here adopted the "shoot first, ask questions later" when it comes to destroying the tangible construct of another person's time and energy (aka towns)? I hope you'll forgive me if I'm not clear on the social norms in these parts. I'm very new-ish.
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Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 02:16
I have sent you a IGM with the process in question. This is a copy, off of the main document area. I will not assume ~NC~ objectives for their fight with STEEL, as they have not kindly laid them out for us, nor do I think they should lay it out. As Dark has said previously within this thread, as well as in GC, we seek the end of the conflict. Today is now day 21 by which reports came to Dark. I do apologize for the slow delay in responding to questions, concerns and comments. I am a bit unwell. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 02:20
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SunStorm, I assure you, this is not a full-force attack from Dark. We intend to limit the targets (yes, less than the 11 members). We also intend to limit the type of offense we will take. Similar in our support of STEEL, we do make attempts to limit Risk (RPN) - for both ourselves and others. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 02:24
And yet... Ward of Intentions lights them up like the 4th of July... The game is paradoxical on scouts and spies. Notice if you have incoming scouts or spies, they are Red in the diplo movement area... If you like I can provide a screenshot, with indicators in case you cannot see Red. Frankly, I could care less. I hold to Dark's stance on their use. Enjoy your easter eggs. (ok, no more holiday references) ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 03:47
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Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 05:27
| I feel like people have mentioned that sometimes your own and allied units don't show up as the right color? This issue doesn't extend to "unfriendly" diplomats too, does it? Like they don't ever show up as non-red? |
Posted By: Vibs
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 05:37
It's quite simple EF. I havent even talked about KCrow being attacked yet. I have yet to declare war on NC. My actions are limited to defending STEEL, against NC or any other hostile forces that may approach the city. Since those attacks have taken place in a STEEL city I donot consider them an attack on Kcrow.The moment there is a diplo or military manouver against a KCrow city I will retaliate along with my allies. And they may not necessarily be the Crows. |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 05:39
| Outgoing diplomats from other players are no longer displayed as red on the map (after they leave your city). I don't know if incoming diplomats display as red on the map, although they will display a red number above the rose. |
Posted By: Diomedes
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 06:12
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Just for the record, let's be very clear about all of this. If NC & STEEL engage in a war, and some members of some other alliances choose to provide resource and defensive support for towns, that is one thing. But it would be extremely foolish to wake a sleeping giant unless one has the wherewithal to deal with it. KCrow have chosen to provide defensive support, but I remind all those who are enjoying the war, that should KCrows towns come under attack in any form, they will be entitled to seek support from the Crow Confederacy in any form that is necessary to protect and preserve that confederacy. I repeat, good people, enjoy your limited war, but don't wake the sleeping giant. ------------- "Walk in the way of the good, for the righteous will dwell in the land" |
Posted By: ULYSSEUS
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 07:49
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Dark's policy on diplo attacks, to clear up any misunderstandings, is to view any diplo attack as an act of war. We have always held to this policy and it has never changed since the alliance was founded. Scouting and spying are not destructive of cities or their resources. However the knowledge gained of an opponents forces, bldg levels, etc. can be used to plan strategy, decide war, initiate hostile actions, etc. . To say they are harmless, no matter how the game defines them, is quite simply a false notion. I would guess that the majority of alliance leaders would hold the scouting and or spying of their alliances leaders as an active, aggressive move and a precursor to hostile engagement. But regardless of how others may feel, I as the leader of DARK, do regard them as hostile. Perhaps if it would have been only me being scouted I would have not had as tough a time stomaching the intrusion. Unfortunately NC chose to scout several of our alliance leaders in addition to me. This we will not accept. Dark has been open and clear about the intentions it has regarding this mess. We are not standing up because the player being singled out is Gim. We would do the same for any player caught in similar circumstances. I am not of course referring to those players who actively seek to be destroyed through word and deed and welcome military engagement no matter the odds. We are standing because the issue was framed as one of personal likes and or dislikes against a sole player and was used as an excuse to attack that player and his alliance. Yes, I know there were several other reasons listed after the initial charge but the point remains that the first charge leveled against Gim is that "we do not like him". The other charges are fluff and everyone knows it. We have never seen evidence to verify a single charge except of course for the "we do not like him" charge. That has been verified repeatedly. Quite honestly, if we let this go then who will it be next time? Who will fall out of favor with a power that be and become the subject of their wrath simply because they do not like him or her? If NC had gone to war with Steel because of any number of other issues that could be verified and proven then it would not be an issue. But the subject of their posting was Gim, not transgressions of his alliance that were deserving of military action. Simply put NC does not like him therefore he must be done away with. Steel and Gim were never a threat to NC. NC may only have 10-11 players but nearly all of them are large enough to cause real damage individually, together their force projection is overwhelming, especially to steel which is mostly full of small, inexperienced players. Everyone here who has more than 8 cities knows it. Most of the alliances in Illy do not have the large pop players and the military, resource strength of NC. Being a large player myself I am more than aware of that fact. There is a solution available. Gim has offered peace on several occasions. He is not interested in fighting with NC. He just wants the attacks to stop. NC has refused to parley with him. Why? No one is asking for surrender or terms of surrender just a simple peace negotiation and an end to the attacks. Seems reasonable to me. The usual trolls will argue against it of course because it is true the saying "some men do not need a reason, they just want to watch the world burn". ------------- Some men die young, some men die old, but all men die. |
Posted By: The Electrocutioner
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 11:38
Nonsense, Ulysseus. Allow me to quote Sisren from two separate posts he made in the "Making A Stand" thread...
DARK got involved because you are receiving payment for your involvement. You are mercenaries. And that is fine - I do not judge that, and it is a legitimate reason to be involved. But don't pretend you are making a moral stand. Also, you paint it as though you were scouted first without cause and it provoked you to declare war. The opposite is true. We found DARK forces in Gim's cities when we attacked, and THEN we scouted. You entered the war (without declaring) before we ever scouted you, and now your using the fact that you were scouted as a reason to be involved. Everything else you and Sisren have said is PR. You are mercenaries doing the job you are being paid to do. End of story. Regards, |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 11:41
JFTR dunnoob may have never received a caravan. Incoming caravans do not show as red, as they are not hostile. dunnoob may also have never been spied or scouted. I worked with T'Shay Silverbow on this: From Sisren and T'shays notifications, note the spy mission failed (1 spy was sent)
Were spies and scouts not hostile, why would they show as this in the notifications?? Good = beneficial, red = detrimental. Simply put. ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 11:44
Really? Oh yes payment. Perhaps you don't understand codes, asking Gim for payment in GC = you have a IGM and we need to go to chatzy. demanding 500 prestige per day of reinforcement, 1 million gold and 1 SS/Elemental salt per level of commander killed, and 2x the resources to replace killed units... you actually believed that? The only payment we have received is a 'thank you'. If you believe otherwise you are gullible... I do have a bridge in manhattan if you are into real estate... It's regrettable that I put the diplomatic attacks in the original post. Certainly many have focused on that as the cause, it is not. I don't care if some jive-talkin turkey believes otherwise, we have communicated that clearly to our allies, ourselves, and you. And to be clear on the timeline - Dark was involved before YOU declared. Enjoy your lollipop kiddo.
------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Princess Xanax
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 11:58
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Sisren, Why must you fall back on personal insults in nearly all of your posts directed at our replies? Surely you can be more constructive than that. PX |
Posted By: BlindScribe
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 12:01
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I, for one, plan to start scouting all my friends. It seems that it's being sold here as the new Illy greeting. No hostility intended, right? No different really than sending a load of supplies to a friend. Just a way of walking up and saying Howdy! :) ~Scribe (tho somehow, I suspect this experiment would have a bad end if actually attempted...)
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Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 12:03
What insults? I am insulting? I did not realize. Can you show me where? I will amend my posting... ------------- Illy is different from Physics- Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect... |
Posted By: Binky the Berserker
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 14:54
looks a bit like an insult to me |
Posted By: ULYSSEUS
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 14:56
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Actually Electrocutioner whats nonsense is this little adventure your alliance has set out upon. I pointed out to you the solution to ending this escapade yet you refuse to address it and instead turn to making false and unfounded claims. Anyone who has had dealings with Dark knows we are certainly not a mercenary alliance and never have been, but you guys have a penchant for making false claims to justify your actions so i should not be surprised. When I say something I mean what I say and everything I wrote in my last post was the truth and you know it. So trying to turn the subject to Dark being the bad guy is laughable. lets not forget who attacked who first with little or no justification. Keep that fact in mind and maybe your next post will be a little more serious and productive towards the goal of establishing peace. But then I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you guys actually want peace in the first place. I don't know call me an optimist. There is always hope that someone over there will see the light.  ------------- Some men die young, some men die old, but all men die. |
Posted By: Faenix
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 17:29
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There have been no serious requests for peace from Gim. He has commented on it in GC a couple times, but he hasn't sent an IGM to Sir Bradly. GC and forums are fine for pleading your public case, but I would expect any serious overtures to be made via private communication. If we wanted peace, why did we declare war? If you think DARK joining in is going to somehow scare us into accepting peace just to avoid fighting you then you are mistaken. If Gim wants peace, then he should provide us (and by us, I mean Sir Bradly, via IGM) something to think about. What is his proposal? Does he intend to admit to doing the things that we have accused him of, and if so, does he plan to offer an apology and a commitment to stay out of our affairs in the future? Honestly, this is stuff that should be handled privately, and if there were a real desire for peace then I think that it would have been attempted already. There seemed to be some third party interest in helping to broker a peace agreement to protect STEEL, but when DARK entered those interests seemed to dissolve since maybe it was felt there was no need for peace now that DARK is involved to handle us. I will admit that since DARK has entered, my appetite for peace has diminished, I don't plan to be cowed into submission. So to make a long reply short, and to summarize in case you missed the point. We have not received any specific request from STEEL for peace other than some random GC noise. If STEEL wants peace, they should figure out what their offer is and let us know. Our obvious preference is that such an offer include an acknowledgement of guilt by Gim, but we don't expect him to lie so if he doesn't feel that we have valid issues then some other offer should be made. Then we'll figure out if that satisfies our frustrations and either accept or negotiate from there. Ball is in STEEL's court to figure out what they want to offer and propose it to Sir Bradly.
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Posted By: Sir A
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 17:56
STEEL never wanted this war that you started. It's been one sided from the start. When someone sends care-a-vans in response to your diplos its a pretty good sign that they do not want to fight. I know you guys were hoping that STEEL would declare war on you after posting that silly message on the forums, but when their response was caravans you had to declare war. So why should STEEL offer anything for peace for a conflict they did not start? If you won't back down because you have too much pride that is a decision that you will have to live with. The ball is not in STEEL's court, it never has been.
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Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 18:06
Out of curiosity, how does this make your reason for jumping into things any better than theirs? To elaborate, it's not like NC pulled a name out of a hat and Gim's name was on it. Gim did something they didn't like and so they are attacking him because of it. Now you're saying you don't like what NC is doing and are attacking them. How is this any different? To be clear, I can't think of a single better reason to attack someone than you don't like them and their actions. Anyone involved in this conflict, besides *maybe* STEEL, is attacking someone because they don't like their actions. So they are the only people that I could maybe see making that argument without sounding like hypocrites. ------------- |
Posted By: Sir A
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 18:09
We are not attacking anyone, just defending STEEL cities.
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Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 18:12
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What is the current status of the war? Dark sent a counter offensive to NC? Any active sieges? Is Gimar's citiss under the protection of Dark, or are they just out to get NC? ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Faenix
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 18:17
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The current state of the war from the NC perspective. NC has declared war on STEEL. HANSA and DARK have declared war on NC. KCrow has pledged defensive support to STEEL but has not declared war.
NC has had several sorties attack Gim's cities. Primarily focused on his two largest cities, Gendard'in and Trade Outpost #1. Some of these sorties have been successful, some of these sorties have been unsuccessful. Many troops (exceeding 100,000 total) have been sacrificed on either side of the conflict. There are currently more armies on the march to both Gendard'in and Trade Outpost #1. Their intentions are not disclosed at this time. There are no siege camps currently deployed anywhere on the map for any party. NC has been receiving diplo missions of all varieties. NC has not yet had a town attacked militarily as far as I am aware. |
Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 18:31
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Why do people say they are only "defending"? They entered in the war, they announced who they are siding on, they are using troops and diplomats to defend their allies, yet no attacks? Do they think by saying "wez just defending" gives them some immunity to recieveing attacks themselves?
------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: Sir A
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 18:48
We have close dealings with STEEL in Kumala and Gim is a friend, so we will defend STEEL cities. When a neighbors house is on fire you help him put it out so the whole neighborhood does not burn down. As of now our troops are limited to defending, but if STEEL decides to retaliate after NC's troops are finished dying at their walls, that is totally up to them. If NC wants to declare war on us, that is totally up to them also.
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Posted By: Vibs
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 18:52
Crows aren't biting EF. Try something new.
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Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 18:57
Right because everything I say is directed at crows. ------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 20:35
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Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2012 at 21:06
great post Faenix, more information and lest debating would make for a more effective declaration of intent. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Vibs
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2012 at 05:29
Have you read your last few posts?
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Posted By: mufridaz
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 03:06
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i have a real life friend in steel who i actually talked into playing the game. so of course i'm biased.
but what i do know is most people in steel are 50k pop and below (most only have a few k pop)and people in NC are 80-250k pop even though they only have 11 members and are smaller guild than steel its kinda like kimbo slice picking a fight with a 80 yr old grandma that weighs 100 lbs. its just not a fair fight in my opinion.
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Posted By: ES2
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 04:20
1, war is never ever ever fair. 2, I do believe they said they are targetting Gim, not the common folk in STEEL, so their pop levels dont matter much. ------------- Eternal Fire |
Posted By: ULYSSEUS
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 09:00
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We are not waging war against NC because we do not like them or because we dislike any particular player within NC alliance. They are waging war against steel because they do not like Gim. We do not like their actions, they do not like Gim. We war because of their actions, they war because they do not like Gim. As far as hypocrisy well "let him who is without sin cast the first stone". ------------- Some men die young, some men die old, but all men die. |
Posted By: ULYSSEUS
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 09:22
We are not waging war against NC because we do not like them or because we dislike any particular player within NC alliance. They are waging war against steel because they do not like Gim. We do not like their actions, they do not like Gim. We war because of their actions, they war because they do not like Gim. There are many people in the game I do not particularly care for yet I do not hunt down and destroy them simply because I do not like them. For their actions? yes, understandable, for their personality? no, not acceptable. If we adopt that mentality then all hell's going to break loose and some people will definitely find out they are not as popular as they thought they were, much to their surprise I imagine. So we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. As far as hypocrisy, well, "let him who is without sin cast the first stone".[ ------------- Some men die young, some men die old, but all men die. |
Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 10:15
I feel like NC has said they don't approve of some of the stuff Gim's been up to ("meddling"). I have no idea what that is in particular, since I'm fairly new and generally not privy to the vague allusions people like to throw around. Just thought I'd point out that seems to be an actions thing not a personality thing.
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Posted By: bansisdead
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 10:16
From the NC deceleration of attacks. "In the case of Gim, the reasons for his deserving it are plentiful. Here are a few: - Some time ago, he tried to get a coalition of other alliances to attack us over a territory dispute that was already resolved and did not concern him. (He failed. And of course he wanted other people to do the fighting, not himself or Steel.) - He contacted one of our members behind our backs to try to convince him to reveal private information and to disparage us. (This failed, and of course our member shared the transcript with us.) - He has tried to poach players from our alliance. (And failed, of course.) - He called one of our members a bigoted epithet that was way over the line and probably not acceptable to post in this forum. - In the Aesir/TLR conflict where ~NC~ provided the majority of the military might, Gim again inserted himself into something that was none of his business. He pretended to be neutral, when in fact he worked solely for the interests of Aesir, where his alt resided. - In the days before we began our diplo campaign, we learned from two separate alliances (with whom we do not have close ties) that Steel was trying to organize attacks on the Night Confederation, supposedly to repay us for our involvement in the Aesir/TLR mess. This was the last straw that caused us to decide to be proactive and attack first. (Gim, your alliance appears to be crawling with the moles of your many enemies. Information is coming to us unsolicited from all sorts of unexpected directions.)" NC have stated they are attacking Gim as NC doesn't like his actions, you state you are attacking NC because of their actions. I cannot see much difference in either of the reasons for declaring war.
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/124253" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Darmon
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 10:20
| Ow. Why would you edit it and make it pink? Why would you do that? |
Posted By: ULYSSEUS
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 12:15
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Lets look at the original posting from the first thread found here if you want to read it in it's entirety. http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/night-crusaders-steel-conflict_topic4155.html This is the original posting outlining NC's reasons for attacking STEEL with massive diplo's and Gim militarily. Nowhere in that posting are any of the reasons they later included in a second post after people began to question their motivation for the attacks and declaration of war. Mind you there has been absolutely no evidence presented that the charges leveled in the second post are true. We are supposed to take NC's word for it, or at least that's the impression I am getting reading through all this crap. Greetings Illyrians, We have been asked by multiple parties if we are responsible for the recent rash of diplo attacks on the Steel Confessors alliance. On behalf of Night Crusaders, I would like to cut right to the chase. Yes, we are responsible for all of the attacks. We did this knowing that we would eventually be caught, although much to our surprise, we sent around 200 separate attacks without ever being busted. (This seems so unlikely that it is probably a flaw in the diplo game mechanics.) We got bored and finally posted a graphic of a composite screen shot of outbound attacks to GC. (The screen shot is a day or so old - these attacks have all already landed. We would like to immediately dispel the suggestion that other alliances in the Night Confederation were also responsible, or even aware. They were not. This action was undertaken solely by Night Crusaders, without the knowledge or involvement of our confeds. (I have every single diplo report to prove it, if necessary.) Also, we have canceled all confeds, so that it will not be possible for them to reinforce us in any way, should this digress into a larger conflict. Why did we do this, you ask? The answer is quite simple: Gim annoys us. Chances are good that he annoys you too. He's a nice enough guy on the surface, but he is a relentless meddler, always inserting himself into other people's business to play some angle while pretending to be neutral. The constant maneuvering and the endless posturing is just tedious. He is talk talk talk with nothing to back it up. It doesn't matter if he has 3 STEEL alliances with 100 members and a dozen confeds... he's a blowhard who lacks the resolve to actually DO anything but talk behind peoples backs about things that don't concern him. And we decided to expose that by waging these attacks - and bearing the consequences - alone, and without the help of our confeds. Also, we simply want to have fun. There is a chorus of
players in this game who are frustrated, and we are among them. Things
are so political that it is nauseating. This is a war game with troops
and diplos - they are meant to be USED, not to be amassed so you can
feel big when you run your mouth. Many players try so hard to conflate
some minor issue into grounds for war, when in the end, some people just
want to fight. (In a war game! Go figure.) We're not going to lie about
it. We wanted to mess with Gim and his alliance, so we just did it. Regards, Now I do not hold it against NC for wanting to use their troops and have fun. Hell, I have always enjoyed a good fight myself! Nope, I do not fault them for enjoying that aspect of the game. I do fault them though for the above reasoning contained in their posting as to the reason for essentially persecuting and smearing a relatively small (compared to their size) player. I also fault them for attacking an alliance that really had no idea what was going on between Gim and Bradly. It also inconveniences us here in DARK. We trade with STEEL for things of use to us. So while not formally confederated we are friendly and trade with each other. We have a vested interest in supporting their cause when we feel it is right to do so. In this matter we feel it is right to do so. Now as of today DARK has sent troops towards NC and they have returned the gesture. It is not what I wished but "what will be, will be". We do not always get what we wish for. ------------- Some men die young, some men die old, but all men die. |
Posted By: bansisdead
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 12:31
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Usylsseus, The fact is they did elaborate on the reasons for declaring war, in the same thread, many days ago. This argument (they don't like gim, we don't like their actions) you are using is now totally invalid, and wearing a bit thin, as you are aware of these reasons (for not liking gim, regardless of their validity). As I said earlier, they gave reasons based on actions, just like you have for declaring war. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/124253" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: BlindScribe
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 13:24
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 18:20
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edit: I should really read the entire thread before posting a response to someone. >.<
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Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 19:40
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Alright I have followed this from the start. Let me share what myself and many others veiw on this is. A) NC launches Diplos at Gim, waits for him to catch them(took a long time) B) NC announces their intent to destroy gim for a personal dislike. - This is exceptionally bad PR but NC wasnt and isnt trying to make any friends- They later listed the reasons they disliked Gim after being hit by the illy police. C) Gim sends care packages in an attempt to do 2 things- 1)Garner public support and 2)Avoid confrontation. When NC kept on with their attacks after receiving Caravans the public distaste for the war was even higher. D) War is officially declared after approx a week of hostile acts. Mana joins in the mess to help Gim. Some various Crows send aid to Gim in his defense. Dark Joins in to complete the pileup. E) Dark Claims they have a vested interest in this because Steel is a trade Partner. Now that the main facts are in here, let me bring up the faults, A)I think the silent war was a part of strategy. NC knew they would eventually get caught and were ready to suffer the consequences. NC could see very clearly Gim had over 10 confeds and many members. Idc who you are or what your pop is- 11 members Vs. 10 alliances would be hard for anyone to overcome. B) Not one time have NC tried to garner the mob, they have stuck to the facts and stated things that may seem controversial. Some players are better at speaking and being diplomatic than others. I know from personal experience leading an alliance- if one member states something (in this case that NC was going to war for their personal distaste for Gim) that isnt necessarily the alliances as a wholes opinion. C) I beleive this was an attempt to gain public favor and nothing more. Once Gim seen NC was going to go on with the attacks he knew he could gain more support by such tactics. D) The part of this i find most striking is that none of Gims confeds stepped in to say they were helping. NC withdrew all their confeds to keep them out of it but STEEL were going to major alliances asking for support. When STEEL confeds were called to help and all they heard was echoes, Mana stepped in. I think its worth mentioning that a confed with some of the Steel allies arent worth holding and some alliance leaderships should take note of that and maybe rethink having allies who use you for support but dont offer the same. E) This is the most outlandish crap Ive read so far- I trade with Sir B but you dont see me running to join in a war effort. Dark was bored and wanted a reason to use their armies. It had been 6 months since the last tourney and their troops needed to stretch their legs. Thats really all this was. The public opinion aka the mob- supported Gim. NC has no good PR people and so Dark seen an opportunity to crash some cities. The feeble attempt at "we are trade partners" is lame and is no reason to involve yourself in a conflict. ------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: Chaos Armor
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 19:49
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Does anyone have proof that Gim was asking every major alliance for help? Is there any proof that he asked his confederations? I've not followed or really read the thread but it seems to me that you are making assumptions. Also, I think the fighting should stop and we all prepare for the long awaited tournament.
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