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31Aug2012: Workshop Specialisation

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: News & Announcements
Forum Name: Announcements
Forum Description: Changes, patch release dates, server launch dates, downtime notifications etc.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4116
Printed Date: 20 Aug 2019 at 02:53
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 31Aug2012: Workshop Specialisation
Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Subject: 31Aug2012: Workshop Specialisation
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 02:40
Available Buildings 
The list to building on an empty plot is now fully alphabetised.

Demolition 
With the appropriate research; demolition is now available on individual building pages as well as the demolition page in the castle.

Crafting Times
The per level item bonus speed from crafted buildings has increased from +1.75% to +2%. 

The base times for crafted items has been reduced: 
Horses 4hrs -> 53min;  Chain 4hrs -> 53min; Leather 2h 45min -> 37min; Plate 4hrs 30min ->  1hr; Bows 3hr 30min ->  47min; Spears 2hr 15min -> 30min; Swords 3hrs -> 40min

Changing Building Levels
Now correctly adjusts your production queue with the correct building levels and various types for mixed queues and specialisation factors. (T1 for advanced res, T2 for crafted). This will both increase and decrease the speed of the build queues. If the total building level contribution from the required buildings become zero the items are destroyed in the queue and the remaining items shuffled up. (e.g. during a siege, a manual demolish or negative resources level down).

Buildings at Zero Producing Resources
The February fix for destroyed buildings still producing resources and maintaining their queues ( http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/14feb12-bug-fix-love-3_topic3176_post38945.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/14feb12-bug-fix-love-3_topic3176_post38945.html ) did not behave correctly. In line with the above changing building levels, this has now been corrected.

Cancelling Production
Now correctly adjusts your production queue with the correct building levels and various types for mixed queues and specialisation factors.

Workshop Specialisation

Researching "Workshop Specialisation" in the crafting tree will enable the ability to specialise your workshops. After you have researched this you can then choose a single item to increase the proficiency of that workshop in.

Note: You can only specialise a workshop once and it is a permanent change. To change what the workshop is specialised in or to make it generic again - you will need to demolish it completely and rebuild.

Specialised workshops only contribute to what they are specialised in; so if you only have specialised workshops in your town you will only be able to build those items that your workshops are specialised in and not everything else that would normally be available to you based on your research and the building. 

However, you can have both specialised and non-specialised workshops in your town; and non-specialised workshops do contribute to the base build time adjustments of specialised items.

Specialising or levelling up a workshop will automatically speed up the building queue for that item and any other items effected. As will levelling down or demolishing.

Warning: If you specialise a workshop and it is the only one of its type and you have items in your queue that only that unspecialised workshop can make; as you no longer have anything that can create those items, they will be destroyed and lost from your queue.

Specialising a workshop means that in addition to the normal base time adjustment from the building levels; it also increases the production rate by +15% per level (+300% at level 20).

For example if you had a town that had 4 Chain Armourers at level 20; 2 specialised in Cloth-Backed Chainmail, 1 specialised in Double-Weave Chainmail and 1 unspecialised, you build rates would look as follows: 


Above you can see the production speeds for 1 unspecialised armour and 2 armours specialised to different amounts. As with all items, hovering over the (?) will provide a breakdown of the bonuses that derive these times.

Desert Chainmail has the bonus from the 20 levels of the unspecialised Chain Armourer; but does not receive any bonus from the specialised Chain Armourers.

If you only had specialised Chain Armourers in your town, you would not be able to build any crafted chain that you weren't specialised in. Having an unspecialised chain armourer allows you to build this too. Here, the one non-specialised level 20 building reduces the production time for Desert Chainmail from 53mins 20s to 32mins per item.

The Double-Weave Chainmail receives the bonus to its base build time from the specialised Chain Armourer andthe unspecialised Chain Armourer. The two level 20 buildings have diminishing returns; the second building being half, making the equivalent of a level 30 building in effect. 

It does not matter whether the specialised or unspecialised building is a higher level - as with current buildings the highest level is considered first, then the next highest has the diminished effect (x 1/2), the 3rd highest more diminished (x 1/4) etc, always maximising your production rate.

The Workshop specialisation; much like sovereignty, then alters the production rate. Each level of your specialised workshops increases your per hour production rate by 15%. With a level 20 specialised building this is a +300% increase or additional x3 items produced per hour. (So 4 times the rate of the building level adjusted speed). Here, the one specialised level 20 building and the one non-specialised level 20 building reduce the production time for Double-Weave Chainmail from 53mins 20s to 5mins 20s per item.

If you have 2 specialised workshops and an unspecialised workshop then the base rate is adjusted by the 3 buildings (e.g. if all level 20:  20/1 + 20/2 + 20/4 = level 35).

The specialised building rate adjustment is also applied with diminished returns so the first adds +300%, the second +(300/2)% = +150% etc.

So in this example the specialist buildings then boost production by a further +450%. This means, two specialised level 20 buildings and the one non-specialised level 20 building reduce the production time for Cloth-Backed Chainmail from  53mins 20s to 2mins 55s  per item.

We hope this helps you understand the both powerful effects of workshop specialisation and its drawbacks.


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Replies:
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 02:56
So if I have one unspecialized level 20 Chain Armourer and one specialized Chain Armourer and I make something I'm not specialized in, I only get the bonus from the one level 20 Chain Armourer?  Is it at full effect or only 50%?

Not that I intend to specialize, all this math makes my head hurt.


Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 03:15
what about sov? will sov that increases sword speed also increase the crafted item speed?

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Nuisance


Posted By: Raatalagk
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 03:47
Thank you for putting a demolish button into the building view! :)

...and of course the rest of the update is also nice.  :p


Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 04:10
Originally posted by Raatalagk Raatalagk wrote:

Thank you for putting a demolish button into the building view! :)

...and of course the rest of the update is also nice.  :p

Indeed!

^5's Raatalagk

:D


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Illy is different from Physics-
Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect...


Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 04:16
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

So if I have one unspecialized level 20 Chain Armourer and one specialized Chain Armourer and I make something I'm not specialized in, I only get the bonus from the one level 20 Chain Armourer?  Is it at full effect or only 50%?
Correct and full effect.

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Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 06:42
i just want to say, thanks for the heads up on this, you know, cause the "glitch" which i had thought was intended had been around since the game came out, thanks again for doing things just right to make it really hard to appreciate the work you did

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Posted By: Faldrin
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 06:56
So now the crafting times are so low that the might have some use Wink

Thanks!


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Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 07:34
Originally posted by Faldrin Faldrin wrote:

So now the crafting times are so low that the might have some use Wink

Thanks!

btw fal, speaking of crafting items, mind getting yours guys off our mine?Wink
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/211/-393/5" rel="nofollow - http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/World/Map/211/-393/5


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Posted By: Smoking GNU
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 08:55
Awesomeness!
Thanks for all the work you devs are doing on this update, TC and SC. Now if only we could equip the things we can make now, eh?
*wink wink*
*Nudge nudge*


Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 09:04
Dear Illyriad developers, you really have that bad habit to come out of nowhere and change things without any advice and discussion with the community.

This morning I found those nice messages:

Brewery completely demolished at 01. Grotte di Castro and its queue of builds lost 5 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:47
Book Binder completely demolished at 03. Arlena di Castro and its queue of builds lost 5 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:46
Book Binder completely demolished at 05. Civita di Castro and its queue of builds lost 5 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:46
Forge completely demolished at 06. Piansano di Castro and its queue of builds lost 5 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:46
Book Binder completely demolished at 07. Farnese di Castro and its queue of builds lost 5 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:46
Fletcher completely demolished at 10. Splendente di Castro and its queue of builds lost 5 hours ago

You were well aware of the feature, you never called it a bug (did you?), I am even 99% sure you stated somewhere it was working as intended, and the very very slow build rate applied to those queue was a signal this thing was managed in the code.

Now I didn't had very long queue, and I am only sad to have lost research point in my books queue, but your decision to take away the queue all together, without any advice and without even try to refund the resources used to build those queue, is something making me wonder if you really care about your customers.

You had a lot of possibilities to delete the queue and refund the materials and research points.
You even had the possibility to push strong on market: putting the lost basic res on an hub you would push players to develop a trader, if not else to are able to get back their res.

But you decided to punish the people using that feature.
So I assume you decided it was an illegal exploit.

Well, next time you decide something we do is wrong, PLEASE tell us it, IMMEDIATELY, DON WAIT months to make us a nice surprise in a September morning....

An additional note about the crafting time. You made several changes and now it looks like the crafted stuff are important to be military competitive. So I cannot no more ignore the whole stuff.
You are moving this game to a gathering, time intensive, nerd oriented game.

Thanks, NOT.


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Posted By: Faldrin
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 09:30
Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

An additional note about the crafting time. You made several changes and now it looks like the crafted stuff are important to be military competitive. So I cannot no more ignore the whole stuff.
You are moving this game to a gathering, time intensive, nerd oriented game.

Thanks, NOT.
I still think you can do VERY fine without doing the crafting. Unless you spend a LARGE amount of time of getting the right rare resources you can just make a few items in mass quantities. Those items do not give that big an advantage. To be honest I think you can field a much larger army just building T1 items and selling them.


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Posted By: Kabu
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 09:44
Thanks for the Demolish button! Smile


Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 09:52
Originally posted by Faldrin Faldrin wrote:

Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

An additional note about the crafting time. You made several changes and now it looks like the crafted stuff are important to be military competitive. So I cannot no more ignore the whole stuff.
You are moving this game to a gathering, time intensive, nerd oriented game.

Thanks, NOT.
I still think you can do VERY fine without doing the crafting. Unless you spend a LARGE amount of time of getting the right rare resources you can just make a few items in mass quantities. Those items do not give that big an advantage. To be honest I think you can field a much larger army just building T1 items and selling them.

Even the easier crafting items require a lot (A LOT) of gathering and crafting. The more the crafting thing became quick, the more it is a need. With long gathering and crafting times I could say "well we will not have lots of them around", but with faster crafting and more gathering availability, we WILL have a lot of armies wearing full crafted items, not only commanders or elite squads...

It's not a feeling, I know I am now online checking for cotters, skinners, herbalists and miners, I have to send out multiple times in a day. It's a fact, I now need to connect several times in a day, and each  for a longer time than before, when one or less connection per day was enough.


And again, if devs one week ago had sent out an advice we could have recovered most of the queue building a lvl 1. This way we lost everything. It is too much to ask they that ???
Do they realize many of us demolished those buildings to have a cottage and we could have recovered the queue easily if adviced???



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Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 09:52
updates is why i love this dev team. and JimJams, if you take a look at the new resourses needed for weapons most of them cost between 50.000 gold to 750.000 gold each :P i think there is some time before anyone will be fielding armies with new weapons.


ALSO, i cant make the spears i want with resources i can find around me so i will have to do as everyone and trade for them, see they made trade hubs to trade for these things


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Posted By: Bard
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 09:56
At first I thought I'd been sabbed.  WTH is this, out of nowhere??  The rest of the update is fine but this really is not good.  Where was the advance warning?  Why are people paying a penalty for something that is suddenly changed, without any notice or warning.  This wasn't seen as illegal was it?  I never got any notice or hint in a forum that is was.  Nice going...NOT!!


Brewery completely demolished at Butcherblock and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago
01 Sep 2012 02:33:33




Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 09:57
Originally posted by Rorgash Rorgash wrote:

updates is why i love this dev team. and JimJams, if you take a look at the new resourses needed for weapons most of them cost between 50.000 gold to 750.000 gold each :P i think there is some time before anyone will be fielding armies with new weapons.

It costs nothing to the gatherer.
And nodes distribution make some people sitting on huge quantity of resources.

I don't hate updates, I do hate bad attitude and surely destroying the queue without advice is stupid, or is a punishment. Both case I hate them.

And if the game change its requirements, especially online time and effort, in a way I dislike, there is nothing you can do to change my mind. I stopped playing WOW because it was too much demanding on my real life. And I loved it.....


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Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 10:00
My other account

Book Binder completely demolished at 1. Alba Iulia and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Brewery completely demolished at 2. Varadinum and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Book Binder completely demolished at 2. Varadinum and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Brewery completely demolished at 3. Suceava and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Fletcher completely demolished at 3. Suceava and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Book Binder completely demolished at 3. Suceava and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Brewery completely demolished at 4. Pelendava and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Spearmaker completely demolished at 4. Pelendava and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Book Binder completely demolished at 4. Pelendava and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Fletcher completely demolished at 5. Album Castrum and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:22
Brewery completely demolished at 6. Dacidava and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:21
Book Binder completely demolished at 6. Dacidava and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago01 Sep 2012 02:35:21
Spearmaker completely demolished at 7. Cibinium and its queue of builds lost 6 hours ago


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Posted By: Faldrin
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 10:04
I still think you can play this game on a casual level and I think the update will give more conflict. More conflict will make you check in more often as well. 

I have no clue what you are talking about in the queue thing. I got a message also but that was from a building not even in the town any more.

If people are sitting on a huge pile of resources the devs need to look into the diplomatic part of the game soon so that we can do something about that beside taking over towns.


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Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 10:10
not sure what happened to you guys, i have queues going in all my towns and i haven't lost anything :/

so maybe a bug and not a intended event?

or is that list you having build a building and started the queue then demolished it to abuse the bug?

im not sure about this but seeing as nothing like this happened to me on either of my account.


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Posted By: Garth
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 10:57
Originally posted by Rorgash Rorgash wrote:

not sure what happened to you guys, i have queues going in all my towns and i haven't lost anything :/

so maybe a bug and not a intended event?

or is that list you having build a building and started the queue then demolished it to abuse the bug?

im not sure about this but seeing as nothing like this happened to me on either of my account.

They're referring to the "set up a queue, demo the building and the queue keeps going" anomaly. I know a lot of people are upset it was fixed with no warning. Personally, any queues I set up in buildings I then had to demo for whatever reason were done in full knowledge that I might lose the queue eventually. So sure, I lost a few queues, I'm not upset about it at all. 

I'm not sure why the devs have their feet held to the fire for fixing obvious game anomalies that were being taken advantage of. In any case, anyone who was taking advantage of it had probably benefitted substantially over how ever many months -- so how could you now moan about lost res? If you weighed what you've already gained vs. what you just lost, most likely you came out far ahead. As we know, the margin is astounding for a number of advanced res items, and basic res is pretty cheap and easy to come by/replace.

As for the rest of the update, I'm waiting until we're a little farther in to make a call. I am a bit unsettled by how much more time my regular duties are taking now. Have to keep reminding myself: they're optional!!!!


Posted By: Cerex Flikex
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 10:57
Looks to me like building a level 1, queuing, then demolishing. This has been changed to not be allowed, and I think that's for the better.

Oh and Devs, thanks for this update. The explanation really helps, and I'm loving the new demolish button.


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/149824" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 11:16
if that is their problem they should be happy that they didnt get banned Ermm 

edit: typo


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Posted By: Smoking GNU
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 11:58
Originally posted by Garth Garth wrote:

Originally posted by Rorgash Rorgash wrote:

not sure what happened to you guys, i have queues going in all my towns and i haven't lost anything :/

so maybe a bug and not a intended event?

or is that list you having build a building and started the queue then demolished it to abuse the bug?

im not sure about this but seeing as nothing like this happened to me on either of my account.

They're referring to the "set up a queue, demo the building and the queue keeps going" anomaly. I know a lot of people are upset it was fixed with no warning. Personally, any queues I set up in buildings I then had to demo for whatever reason were done in full knowledge that I might lose the queue eventually. So sure, I lost a few queues, I'm not upset about it at all. 

I'm not sure why the devs have their feet held to the fire for fixing obvious game anomalies that were being taken advantage of. In any case, anyone who was taking advantage of it had probably benefitted substantially over how ever many months -- so how could you now moan about lost res? If you weighed what you've already gained vs. what you just lost, most likely you came out far ahead. As we know, the margin is astounding for a number of advanced res items, and basic res is pretty cheap and easy to come by/replace.

As for the rest of the update, I'm waiting until we're a little farther in to make a call. I am a bit unsettled by how much more time my regular duties are taking now. Have to keep reminding myself: they're optional!!!!

Is this SERIOUSLY what these ppl are complaining about? I wasn't exactly sure what it is these ppl were getting at. If i'm not mistaken, that can be seen as exploiting a BUG, and people are complaining about not being able to do it anymore.. On the forum. 
*Facepalm*


Posted By: Thes Hunter
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 12:33
Do these newer build times for crafted items apply to things already in queues?


I ask cause I got excited and set up a queue of 500 light bows a week or so back... and it is still telling me it will be done at the end of October. Cry

Do I have to level up my Bowyer one more time? Or cancel the queue entirely in order to get the new faster speeds?

Thank you all and nice work on this. Clap


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 12:42
I think they said in global chat they would be working on updating the build times in current queues, but I might not have understood correctly.


Posted By: Thes Hunter
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 13:35
Excellent, thanks Rill!

I don't have the ability to focus on the game and on GC, so I'm never there.


Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 14:07
If you take a look at the updated notes on the first page, notice was given in February to the change of the production queue for destroyed buildings. This was always a bug and not something you were intended to be able to do.

As someone already said, the fact that you got to use this bug to your advantage for as long as some people did was enough.

Luna

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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk



Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 14:39
Originally posted by GM Luna GM Luna wrote:

If you take a look at the updated notes on the first page, notice was given in February to the change of the production queue for destroyed buildings. This was always a bug and not something you were intended to be able to do.

As someone already said, the fact that you got to use this bug to your advantage for as long as some people did was enough.

Luna

I was wrong :-(
Sorry, never read that message before...


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Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 15:11
Originally posted by GM ThunderCat GM ThunderCat wrote:

The February fix for destroyed buildings still producing resources and maintaining their queues ( http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/14feb12-bug-fix-love-3_topic3176_post38945.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/14feb12-bug-fix-love-3_topic3176_post38945.html ) did not behave correctly. In line with the above changing building levels, this has now been corrected.
Eh, I wasn't aware that this was supposed to be an incorrectly fixed bug, and used it for a straight forward "all build queues must be busy" strategy.

The new behaviour is far more intuitive, and I don't care about lost basic resources.  

But I also had lots of cows queued in temporarily non-existing buildings.  Limited plots and the crafting research in essence require to switch dummy buildings at level 1, and filling queues while at it was perfectly plausible.  You should return those lost cows.  The level 0 building times were slow, e.g., 2000 queued saddles were expected to be ready months later.


Posted By: Faldrin
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 15:16
Originally posted by dunnoob dunnoob wrote:

Originally posted by GM ThunderCat GM ThunderCat wrote:

The February fix for destroyed buildings still producing resources and maintaining their queues ( http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/14feb12-bug-fix-love-3_topic3176_post38945.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/14feb12-bug-fix-love-3_topic3176_post38945.html ) did not behave correctly. In line with the above changing building levels, this has now been corrected.
Eh, I wasn't aware that this was supposed to be an incorrectly fixed bug, and used it for a straight forward "all build queues must be busy" strategy.

The new behaviour is far more intuitive, and I don't care about lost basic resources.  

But I also had lots of cows queued in temporarily non-existing buildings.  Limited plots and the crafting research in essence require to switch dummy buildings at level 1, and filling queues while at it was perfectly plausible.  You should return those lost cows.  The level 0 building times were slow, e.g., 2000 queued saddles were expected to be ready months later.
and you keep complaining about how you have lost stuff in an exploit? Seriously?


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Posted By: jordigui
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 15:17
Sorry, but I must express my discontent in changing the crafting times.
We (at least I) have taken decisions based on all information available. and one of them was crafting times. With previous crafting times it was very difficult if not impossible to be able to equip a "big" army with crafted equipment.
 Based on this, I took decisions and did very important investments on normal equipment, expecting prices to go up do to a lower production and still a high demand.
 However, with your change, completely arbitrary and without warning, changes all playing conditions. On my case, the production will not be that lower (and demand will drop), and so prices will not raise, but most surely they will drop too.
 Thanks for making me some hundred millions poorer with this arbitrary change.

 Moreover, as some other players have already said, I am also quite unhappy with the current trend of this game that favours players that are able to be logged in the longest possible. Before, with 30 minutes a day you could have everything working in your cities and perform well. Currently, if you wanna perform well, you need several hours a day.

 TH


Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 15:25
its a max of 40% decrease in time instead of 35% Confused how does that lose you hundred of millions?

im quite happy that i can play the game and have fun for more then 30 minutes aday.


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Posted By: Faldrin
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 15:27
Originally posted by jordigui jordigui wrote:

Sorry, but I must express my discontent in changing the crafting times.
We (at least I) have taken decisions based on all information available. and one of them was crafting times. With previous crafting times it was very difficult if not impossible to be able to equip a "big" army with crafted equipment.
 Based on this, I took decisions and did very important investments on normal equipment, expecting prices to go up do to a lower production and still a high demand.
 However, with your change, completely arbitrary and without warning, changes all playing conditions. On my case, the production will not be that lower (and demand will drop), and so prices will not raise, but most surely they will drop too.
 Thanks for making me some hundred millions poorer with this arbitrary change.

 Moreover, as some other players have already said, I am also quite unhappy with the current trend of this game that favours players that are able to be logged in the longest possible. Before, with 30 minutes a day you could have everything working in your cities and perform well. Currently, if you wanna perform well, you need several hours a day.

 TH

YOu need the "old" resources to build the new. I cant see how that will lower he price. I would say it will make the prices higher! So It seems like you have made a good deal ;-)


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Posted By: jordigui
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 15:50

 @ Rorgash, you said:
its a max of 40% decrease in time instead of 35% Confused how does that lose you hundred of millions?

im quite happy that i can play the game and have fun for more then 30 minutes aday.

 But then the reality (crafting times) are much different, from 4 hours to 53 minutes is just a 40% decrease? You need some more work in math ...

Crafting Times
The per level item bonus speed from crafted buildings has increased from +1.75% to +2%. 

The base times for crafted items has been reduced: 
Horses 4hrs -> 53min;  Chain 4hrs -> 53min; Leather 2h 45min -> 37min; Plate 4hrs 30min ->  1hr; Bows 3hr 30min ->  47min; Spears 2hr 15min -> 30min; Swords 3hrs -> 40min


 Anotehr thing is that you can enjoy it for more than 30 minutes a day. No one says that is bad. What I complaint is that you require hours to be competitive. Previously, you required 30 minutes and then you could have fun, which is completely different.


 @ Faldrin, ok, maybe they won't decrease that much because you still need them to buld the others. But before if in 1 day you could make 6 chains, now you can do 25 a day. So you will require to buy less and so price will not increase that much (or could even decrease).

 TH



Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 15:55
Originally posted by Faldrin Faldrin wrote:

you keep complaining about how you have lost stuff in an exploit? Seriously?
Yes, this is a serious complaint, as I said:  I wasn't aware that this was supposed to be an incorrectly fixed bug.  I considered it as widely known oddity.  Nothing is wrong with changing this oddity, but just destroying all queued goods retroactively is utter dubious.  

It certainly wasn't my decision that this feature was a bug, or vice versa, and it's also not my fault that a fix didn't work as expected.  In fact by looking at my petitions the GMs can guess that I would have reported it if I had any reasons to believe that it was a failed bug fix.  

As it happens I never queued more than 1999 in temporary buildings, and I captured the cows for their relevant queues less than four weeks ago, so my losses are no disaster, maybe 10K cows lost for whatever level 0 produced in this time.   But other players in the same situation might have queued far more, and can't afford to see it destroyed now.


Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 15:59
Originally posted by Faldrin Faldrin wrote:

Originally posted by dunnoob dunnoob wrote:

Originally posted by GM ThunderCat GM ThunderCat wrote:

The February fix for destroyed buildings still producing resources and maintaining their queues ( http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/14feb12-bug-fix-love-3_topic3176_post38945.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/14feb12-bug-fix-love-3_topic3176_post38945.html ) did not behave correctly. In line with the above changing building levels, this has now been corrected.
Eh, I wasn't aware that this was supposed to be an incorrectly fixed bug, and used it for a straight forward "all build queues must be busy" strategy.

The new behaviour is far more intuitive, and I don't care about lost basic resources.  

But I also had lots of cows queued in temporarily non-existing buildings.  Limited plots and the crafting research in essence require to switch dummy buildings at level 1, and filling queues while at it was perfectly plausible.  You should return those lost cows.  The level 0 building times were slow, e.g., 2000 queued saddles were expected to be ready months later.
and you keep complaining about how you have lost stuff in an exploit? Seriously?

Exploit? Even if I didn't missed the february one line advice about the issue, all the stuff queued before that date cannot be called an exploit. 
Before february there was no reason to think this was not working as intended, so it was legit to work a strategy around it.

And all the people who normally use to have LONG queue (I have some up to 600 days), incurred in this "feature" just demolishing the production building when they needed to build those new gathering/crafting/trading buildings. If you look my two messages you can notice which kind of queue I lost, and you will immediatly know I demolished the less usefull to make space.

So please stop calling us exploiters. I personally reported a lot of "nice to use" bugs, and I will do it when I will find more. But I also like to use all the game features in all the possible ways, also thinking out of the box.


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Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 16:02
@ jordigui  the buildings speed increase per lvl is 5% faster, i read the post as the speed was for the building lvl. but atleast they changed to so that the weapons wont take a year to make for a few troops :P

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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 16:17
Let's please not argue the semantics of "oddity" vs. "anomaly" vs. "bug" vs."exploit" or whatever else. The feature didn't work as intended for a long time (our fault), and now it does. I apologize for the inconvenience and confusion, but we don't apologize for fixing the mistake. 

And I promise I'm not going to sew any scarlet "E's" to anyone's shirt who used the loophole. Live and learn and all that stuff. ;)

Luna


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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk



Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 16:46
I didn't know about this semantically obtuse game mechanic, however it seems to me that anyone who went to the trouble of planning a strategy around such a thing should have understood the inherant risk involved, regardless of how small and unlikely to happen it might have seemed.

I'd like to echo the Military Outfitter sentiment. I am paying Swordsmen to stand around at riding school because they can't seem to figure out how to GET ON a friggin' horse!

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 16:48
hey it takes years to get good at riding a horse, and with armor and all the gear, maybe in a few years your troops will be ready :)

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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 16:51
Agreed, but couldn't they employ some sort of pully system to get them up there at least? I'll send the Siege Workshop crew over, I bet they can figure it out.

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: jordigui
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 18:29
They have changed the bonus speed per level (the 5% faster you say), but more important, also the base times in more than 4 times:

The base times for crafted items has been reduced: 
Horses 4hrs -> 53min;  Chain 4hrs -> 53min; Leather 2h 45min -> 37min; Plate 4hrs 30min ->  1hr; Bows 3hr 30min ->  47min; Spears 2hr 15min -> 30min; Swords 3hrs -> 40min.

 I consider this as an arbitrary change, after the introduced some initial times. i cannot understand this change after such a short period of time this was implemented. Why? Was not working as intended? Something not foressen? Lack of testing/maths?

 This has very very important implications on the game. The players that try to take (strategic) decisions based on the information available are really harmed (and pissed sometimes) when the playing conditions change without notice and reason.


Posted By: mizaralcor
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 18:35
Originally posted by jordigui jordigui wrote:


 @ Faldrin, ok, maybe they won't decrease that much because you still need them to buld the others. But before if in 1 day you could make 6 chains, now you can do 25 a day. So you will require to buy less and so price will not increase that much (or could even decrease).

 TH


The trend that certain items in an MMO could depreciate or appreciate in value due to major game changes or patches is not unique to Illyriad. Literally every single MMO out there with some semblance of market system will have this issue cropping up whenever a game-wide revamp is implemented, and in the process causing many market speculators to get burned. For every market speculation, there is inherent risk due to constantly ever-changing nature of MMOs.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 18:36
My guess is that they didn't see the desired friction developing over the resources and realized that with really long build times and low reward ratios, there is more than adequate supply to meet any and all demand, thus little friction has ensued other than people wanting resources for the sake of having them.  With much shorter build times, people might be more likely to attempt to equip entire armies, and thus demand might increase substantially, leading to friction over supply.


Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 18:41
There were a lot of legitimate complaints about the time it would take to create enough equipment to outfit a decent sized army. I think the real limitation in the crafting system is access to resources required. So easing the time requirement on crafting is something that should be a win/win for anyone interested in crafting. 

Luna


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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk



Posted By: jordigui
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 19:31
But is a lose/lose situation for those not interested in crafting.
We have to sell products cheaper and others can equipt armies faster.
the problem is that I (we) did our choices (mainly of buildings) once we saw the all the new features (including times). At that moment, I believed it was not so worthy to craft so i decided to pursue another strategy.
Now, with this arbitrary change, some decisions  took are no longer satisfactory, so i'll have to demolish and build other buildings, apart from the delay that means to me. It is like playing poker and when you have your cards and you make the bid, then they change your cards, is ain't fair, right?


Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 20:49
you don't have to craft then. 
of course you have to sell cheaper.
you can undo those changes. would only take time and res or prestige and res. 


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Nuisance


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 21:22
Originally posted by GM Luna GM Luna wrote:

There were a lot of legitimate complaints about the time it would take to create enough equipment to outfit a decent sized army. I think the real limitation in the crafting system is access to resources required. So easing the time requirement on crafting is something that should be a win/win for anyone interested in crafting. 

Luna

And a lose/lose for people not interested in crafting.  And a win/lose for gatherers -- while it increases demand for gathered stuff (good) it also increases competition for the stuff (not so good).

Build times were too long to be practical.  We have been arranging our play for a month based on those times.  Now they are different and we shall arrange our play differently.

The people I feel most compassion for is people who have been crafting for all this time.  Now someone can accomplish in a few days what they have struggled for a month to do.

Reducing the build times is probably the right thing to do.  However, the way crafting has been implemented has left something to be desired.  I guess it is a compliment to the Illyriad team that such post hoc changes to fiddle with "balance" are the exception rather than the rule.


Posted By: Buridan
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 22:22
Meanwhile, as you are debating the strategic level merits of the change the fact is that the actual implementation is seriously borked.  I started a brand new build of Vanguard's Chainmail this morning and supposedly I can build it at a rate of 1.41 per hour.  Well its more than 11 hours later and my production summary says that I have made a grand total of 6 of them.

Even worse, my inventory says I only have 3.

I've got similar examples in most of my cities.

By the way, I love the change to the crafting speeds but come on devs get the actual server math to match what you post in the forums.


Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 22:34
Originally posted by Buridan Buridan wrote:

Meanwhile, as you are debating the strategic level merits of the change the fact is that the actual implementation is seriously borked.  I started a brand new build of Vanguard's Chainmail this morning and supposedly I can build it at a rate of 1.41 per hour.  Well its more than 11 hours later and my production summary says that I have made a grand total of 6 of them.

Even worse, my inventory says I only have 3.

I've got similar examples in most of my cities.

By the way, I love the change to the crafting speeds but come on devs get the actual server math to match what you post in the forums.

Thanks for the petition about the issue. We'll look into it as soon as is possible.

Luna


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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk



Posted By: hellion19
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 22:46
I mostly agree with Luna as far as the times go. Most of the price will be the cost of the resources itself and the time is not a major factor. I mean yes it could of been included in the price but I doubt it would be that major of a factor once more of it starts making it to the market.

Early on the price is whatever you want it to be as the suppliers are fairly limited as they are supplying their own guilds and own armies so if your trying to sell them outside of that its a sellers market atm. If you want to actually buy the equipment to gear up your army your usually at the mercy of whatever they feel like charging until competition sets in a bit more and even then with a fractured market the competition will be severely limited to the point of there likely being multiple small monopolies in different resources to drive the price higher. 


Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2012 at 22:47
Originally posted by GM Luna GM Luna wrote:

Let's please not argue the semantics of "oddity" vs. "anomaly" vs. "bug" vs."exploit" or whatever else. The feature didn't work as intended for a long time (our fault), and now it does. I apologize for the inconvenience and confusion, but we don't apologize for fixing the mistake. 

And I promise I'm not going to sew any scarlet "E's" to anyone's shirt who used the loophole. Live and learn and all that stuff. ;)

Luna
LOL!  @ Scarlet E.


Posted By: Endrok
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2012 at 10:30

Horse specialisation at a Quarry!    Confused
I'm pretty sure this isn't supposed to happen!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14166007/IllyQuarrySpec1.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14166007/IllyQuarrySpec1.jpg
(I've seen it more that once)



Posted By: TomBombadil
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2012 at 12:08
I'd love the ability to specialise all my quarry horses!


Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2012 at 04:19
Actually before the update there was no way you could craft items in time.   I had/still have massive quantities that needed to be crafted.  After the update it is more in tune with what could actually be gathered.  

For the rarest things yea maybe silversteel will be limited, but for the more basic ones it will be crafting time not access to the materials.


Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2012 at 08:46
lol, well i never did get any mails, heck im not sure i had anything in que even, maybe some crafting stuff...

all in all thanks for "fixing" it then :)

keep on making illy great, cant wait to get the game feeling "done" or "whole" again, at least for a bit


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Posted By: Direb
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2012 at 17:59
Glad this is now implemented, thanks Devs. 

Rather than raise a petition I may as well throw this one into the thread.  I set up a rather long build queue then specialised my workshop to see the difference.  It seems you may need to revisit the code as there was no difference and now I have an 11 day build queue instead of the 2.5 days I would have if I didn't want to see the numbers magically decrease LOL

Not a burning issue for me as lets face it resource availability will impede me anyway but you may want to look at this.





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