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15Aug12 - Market Graphs

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: News & Announcements
Forum Name: Announcements
Forum Description: Changes, patch release dates, server launch dates, downtime notifications etc.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=4008
Printed Date: 19 Aug 2019 at 13:02
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 15Aug12 - Market Graphs
Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Subject: 15Aug12 - Market Graphs
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 09:42
Price History Graphs
The Marketplace now has a set of graphing and graphing technologies: Trends, Trend Analysis, Speculation, Technical Analysis, Market Ledger. As standard you can see the average price graph for a commodity; however you can extend your insight using these technologies to volumes, buy/sell averages, candlestick open/closing/mix/max and supply/demand graphs - as well as the ability to download the historical data for your own external nefarious use.

       


The graphs are by region, and selecting a trade hub will change the region from your town to the region of that trade hub - if it is in a different location to your town. e.g. having a trader in a hub in a different region to your town will give you this extended view.

The mini-graph under the main graph can be used to zoom into the main graph, by clicking and dragging a section - clicking without dragging will zoom back out. At this time it won't provide a huge amount of extra fidelity, but overtime as more marketplace history builds up this should become a more useful feature.

Marketplace Usability Improvements
  • Location choice now alters what is shown in the Market Prices.
  • When switching between location choice the marketplace now continues to show the data for the relevant subpage (e.g. Wood, Graph)
  • When creating an order it will default to the current location and item type (if available)
  • The numeric columns are now sorted numerically when you resort them, rather than alphabetically.
  • Trade hubs buy and sell offers pages now correctly tell you where you need to setup buy and sell offers rather than saying you have no traders or inventory.
  • Caravans from other towns can now correctly be ordered by traders.
  • Hub purchases from towns now show what is being delivered and picked up on the trade movements screen.
Bug fixes
  • Cancelling trades should no longer cause caravans to go missing.
  • Town to town trades now use the two correct speeds for caravans from the originating towns rather than just the speed from one.


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Replies:
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 09:45
I love it.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 09:50
Awesome! Now what we need is people with traders in every market and the download technology, and we can set up a tool with the current average prices for every good in each region of Illy.  Eaque?  Honored Mule?  Care to give it a try?  Could work similar to the way IllyTools uploads battle reports, perhaps?

/me tries to imagine additional external nefarious uses


Posted By: Cerex Flikex
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 09:51
Very nice. Thank you devs.

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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/149824" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 14:07
The availability of information tied to in-game research, very nice Clap

Now, if we could research something to tie the map to all those scouting reports so when we click on the map we can get to the scouting report...

Maybe in the far future (soon) we can research and hire inventory managers, animal control manager, harvesting manager, etc... and these nobles will help run our cities?

Awesome progress Smile



Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 19:17
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

Maybe in the far future (soon) we can research and hire inventory managers, animal control manager, harvesting manager, etc... and these nobles will help run our cities?

Awesome progress Smile


They would all want their own buildings! lol


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 19:47
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

They would all want their own buildings! lol
Tongue


Maybe they could be talked into each having a corner office in one building Wink



Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 19:49
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

They would all want their own buildings! lol
Tongue


Maybe they could be talked into each having a corner office in one building Wink



Maybe we can stop building all this stuff and give them a place at the guild office. I'm sure someone will move over. :P


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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 20:59
I only have a complaint: grapes

Trading will need ages to start working, especially not Centrum hubs.

Not smart. You are killing your own creature...


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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 22:04
Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

I only have a complaint: grapes

Trading will need ages to start working, especially not Centrum hubs.

I'm a little surprised that I am the only Trader at Glinntre so far.  I'm there and open for business!  Come on down!


Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 22:45
Originally posted by The_Dude The_Dude wrote:

Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

I only have a complaint: grapes

Trading will need ages to start working, especially not Centrum hubs.

I'm a little surprised that I am the only Trader at Glinntre so far.  I'm there and open for business!  Come on down!

No way we can have multiple local markets working. Second trader cost is 1 barrel, third 2 barrels.... 
Unlikely you can have mass distributed market in less than a few YEARS.

Not kidding.

I think this should be revised.



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Posted By: Raritor
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 23:47
It's hardly impossible for most of us having more than 1 trader. I also agree that something must be done.


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 00:58
Wait 2-3 days, I bet there will be a lot more traders then.



Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 01:09
My trader in Gajik Festral is lonely. Anyone headed there any time soon?

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Thexion
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 08:45
Maybe King Sigurd should offer Elgean lords a round of his finest red to speed up the trade and loosen the tongues ;)


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 14:18
I really liked to research either "gatherer guilds + record keeping" for gatherer towns, or "merchant guild + trade office" and so on for trader towns.  Meanwhile it turns out that gatherer towns also need the "merchant guild + faction markets" research if they want to send their stuff to the trader at the hub, and trader towns also need the "record keeping" research if they want to research the new market graphs skills. Ermm


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 14:29
Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

Second trader cost is 1 barrel, third 2 barrels....
You are joking...
Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

Not kidding.
...not? Shocked

They should let us "trade" four settlers for one barrel for a limited time to kick start trade v2, today would be soon enough.


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 15:01
Localizing trade requires players to not send traders everywhere. 
  
Wait a few months and see how it plays out. I'm sure the markets will be thriving with goods before Christmas.



Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 15:17
I've found dozens of grape plots without really looking too hard at the map.  No, they aren't near me but I stumbled on them while looking around.  I've harvested some grape plots and was able to pull 1,000 grapes/day every two days without making a den't in the number of grapes left (until people parked armies on those plots).  I think you can probably pull 1,000/day every day from a grape plot.  With those guesses that's about 30,000 grapes/day or 2,700 barrels of wine/year, just from the limited portions (<1%) of the map I've seen.  I imagine there are enough grapes out there to make at least 10,000 barrels/year or 800 traders/month or 5-6 traders/hub/month (plus all those 1st traders who don't need any wine).

I don't think trading will happen instantly (it takes a while to build a trader, not to mention that many people had to destroy buildings to make the trader buildings and then there is the research, etc...) but it will happen.  Since traders never die (how would you kill one) I think over time we will see plenty of them to get trade moving even if you assume most of the wine/grapes get hoarded.



Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 15:26
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

I've found dozens of grape plots without really looking too hard at the map.  No, they aren't near me but I stumbled on them while looking around.  I've harvested some grape plots and was able to pull 1,000 grapes/day every two days without making a den't in the number of grapes left (until people parked armies on those plots).  I think you can probably pull 1,000/day every day from a grape plot.  With those guesses that's about 30,000 grapes/day or 2,700 barrels of wine/year, just from the limited portions (<1%) of the map I've seen.  I imagine there are enough grapes out there to make at least 10,000 barrels/year or 800 traders/month or 5-6 traders/hub/month (plus all those 1st traders who don't need any wine).

I don't think trading will happen instantly (it takes a while to build a trader, not to mention that many people had to destroy buildings to make the trader buildings and then there is the research, etc...) but it will happen.  Since traders never die (how would you kill one) I think over time we will see plenty of them to get trade moving even if you assume most of the wine/grapes get hoarded.


So, we will spend hours looking the map, to find grapes 500 squares from us, then we send (an army? a cotter?) and we hope it will not bounce someone, or kill some other cotters. This every other day.

Is this adding fun to the game ?

Am I the only one bored about this ?


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Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 15:35
Originally posted by dunnoob dunnoob wrote:

Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

Second trader cost is 1 barrel, third 2 barrels....
You are joking...
Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

Not kidding.
...not? Shocked

They should let us "trade" four settlers for one barrel for a limited time to kick start trade v2, today would be soon enough.

I read a post from another player reporting :

1 trader = free
2 trader = 1 barrel
3 trader = 1 barrel
4 trader = 2 barrel

so it is a little better than expected.

At this point I just don't care, I will use hubs when I will be able to get wine. 
I was just trying to point to a risk of failure, not my problem anyway. 
Case closed.


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Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 16:29
Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

So, we will spend hours looking the map, to find grapes 500 squares from us, then we send (an army? a cotter?) and we hope it will not bounce someone, or kill some other cotters. This every other day.

Is this adding fun to the game ?

Am I the only one bored about this ?

Yes, if that's all you can imagine then that is what you will have to do.

Everyone get's a trader (1 trader) without needing any wine.  With one trader you can send him to any trade hub and place a buy order for grapes or a barrel of wine or both.

My point was that if you send your trader to the right place, there are abundant grapes.  People in those areas will manage to get large stockpiles.  When there are large stockpile of a commodity and a very high market price someone will break and start selling.  Prices can only fall in that type of market and each customer can only use a limited amount of grapes/wine.  Once a player has made all the traders he wants, he won't buy more grapes/wine (traders don't die).  People certainly won't pay crazy high prices for grapes/wine if they don't want more traders.  Once one person in an area with grapes starts selling there will be a frenzy but things will slow over time.  Harvesting and selling grapes is going to be a gangbuster business for a very short time and then a declining business for the next year or two.  The flood of traders the first round of grape selling creates will bring grapes to other hubs to try and replicate the initial frenzy.  This time there will be even more competition though.

What the grape harvesters need to do is create an OPEC style cartel of grape growers.  That would keep prices artificially high.



Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 17:36
Originally posted by JimJams JimJams wrote:

So, we will spend hours looking the map, to find grapes 500 squares from us, then we send (an army? a cotter?) and we hope it will not bounce someone, or kill some other cotters. This every other day.
No.  1st, in Tallimar and other jungles -- ditto deserts -- finding grapes is hopeless; 2nd, sending cotters on one day trips to Arran is, as you said, no fun; 3rd, your towns are far too big for any cotters at all.  

Untested:  Maybe new players are willing to collect grapes, and swap them for trade v1 resources, or for military help with their rare resources.  The latter requires NAPs with training alliances, or wherever you find new players with lots of cotters near grapes.   


Posted By: nitin2011
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 17:44

I also think many of us do not know that we have default visibility to all the hubs in a certain radius, so one can buy a "sell order" or sell to a "buy order" without having a trader in these hubs.

If you are not seeing orders in hubs it’s because no one has trader there and no one put a buy or sell order in the hub –its matter of time

You only need multiple traders if you need visibility in extra hubs or you are in trading and really want to go hub to hub to buy or sell.

for example, I have default visibility in 12 hubs between my both a/c and I can buy or sell to any order placed by others in these hubs (without the need of trader) - now if I need to see beyond these 12 hubs I need trader or if I need to place buy/sell order in hub I need trader.

PS: Total hubs on map = 145  with centrum hub most active atm, come here with your free trader and don't buy grapes in black market else people will hoard them forever 



Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 18:18
Good luck getting new players to harvest grapes.  Most of the grapes in the newb ring have armies parked on them.  I have a newb in my alliance who had 3 cotters killed when someone landed an army on a grape patch yesterday.  No big deal, but any risk for little chance of a return is not going to be a plan you can sell to a lot of new payers. They're better off harvesting herbs, minerals or especially hides.

As for the estimate of 1000 grapes per patch per day, that is a bit high in my opinion. Patches in my area vary between 300-600 grapes.  As a human, my peeps gather faster, but with 3 cotters per patch, that's 300 grapes every 15 hours.  IF I can manage it so that they harvest 24/7, then I would get around 500 grapes per 24 hours.  But that's hard to pull off, since remember it's hard to have more than a few cotters in even a half-developed city, so it's not like you can send out a new batch while your old batch is harvesting, because generally all of your cotters will be out harvesting SOMETHING.

500 grapes a day is IF your patch is very close AND you don't have a lot of neighbors interrupting you.  I've been using around 10 cotters to harvest grapes pretty faithfully from relatively close patches, and I've managed to amass a total of about 7000 grapes since the change was implemented.  Granted, my yield has gone up from the first week or so when I was sending cotters one at a time, but I'm not expecting to net more than 1000 grapes a day from all the patches I visit combined even under the best circumstances.

There have been implications that wine will be used for other purposes, such as spell casting, in the future, and who says Traders never die?  I could imagine they could be caught up in blockades, for example.

I don't particularly mind the mechanics of gathering except for all the angst and animosity involved.  But I can see how others would see it as tiresome.


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 19:09
10  from [city name here] finished at [location A] in [a province] having harvested 1000  and are returning home. 601 are left on the square. Yesterday 14 Aug 2012 19:52:55

10  from [city name here] finished at [location B] in [a province] having harvested 1000  and are returning home. 570 are left on the square. 2 days ago 13 Aug 2012 20:52:19

10  from [city name here] finished at [location A] in [a province] having harvested 1000  and are returning home. 601 are left on the square. 3 days ago 12 Aug 2012 19:07:48

8  from [city name here] finished at [location B] in [a province] having harvested 800  and are returning home. 580 are left on the square. 4 days ago 12 Aug 2012 02:37:13

10  from [city name here] finished at [location A] in [a province] having harvested 1000  and are returning home. 601 are left on the square. 5 days ago 10 Aug 2012 23:37:45

6  from [city name here] finished at [location A] in [a province] having harvested 600  and are returning home. 621 are left on the square. 1 weeks ago 09 Aug 2012 09:25:13

6  from [city name here] finished at [location C] in [a province] having harvested 600  and are returning home. 442 are left on the square. 2 weeks ago 04 Aug 2012 15:50:30

Scrubbed grape harvesting reports (minus the reports where the account was bumped by other newbies) from a brand new account (in the newbie ring).  There were no armies on any of those grape plots.  The newbie account those reports come from doesn't have armies.  That newbie is still harvesting from one of the plots, two did get shut down.  All reports are from the same city.  That city also harvested over 10,000 minerals and 10,000 herbs.  It's not hard.  Dead cotters are as easy to replace as dead scouts.  That account hasn't lost a cotter yet though.

In another part of the map, I noticed a grape patch.  So I looked around, within one 40 square block I counted a dozen grape plots (I stopped counting as every harvester I clicked on was grapes) and only 2 had armies on them.  This was three days ago, well after every rare resource near me had armies on it.

Both those situations could just be lucky chance observations on my part.  My projections may be wrong, but they can't be that far wrong.  I made them based on information in hand, not total guesses.



Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 19:13
Originally posted by nitin2011 nitin2011 wrote:

I also think many of us do not know that we have default visibility to all the hubs in a certain radius, so one can buy a "sell order" or sell to a "buy order" without having a trader in these hubs.

I believe the hub visibility radius is dependent on the cities marketplace level.



Posted By: nitin2011
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 19:26
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

Originally posted by nitin2011 nitin2011 wrote:

I also think many of us do not know that we have default visibility to all the hubs in a certain radius, so one can buy a "sell order" or sell to a "buy order" without having a trader in these hubs.

I believe the hub visibility radius is dependent on the cities marketplace level.


Yes I also think its relative to your marketplace level however if you are seeing hubs in "Visible trade hubs only"  dropdown when you buy or sell - you have visibility on these hubs and you can buy/sell existing hub orders in these hubs without trader (if someone had put buy/sell order in hub)




Posted By: Garth
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 19:32
How many traders will most players want or need?

My feeling is that there seems to be an abundance of the new materials, besides some select *extremely rare* minerals and herbs. What is not abundant, though, is visibility, and that's okay with me, as it really does make the game more interesting. If there's a certain item I want, I'm going to have to search for it, either with a trader, by talking with my contacts, or going to some black market or other. For more standard rare items, they won't be too far away.

There are *plenty* of basic minerals and herbs, and most of the normal rare spots I've found have a large output. What does "large output" mean? Probably 15-20/day on average. There are hundreds of rare spots across the map (maybe one of our great player-programmers could set up a tool for counting and finding them...), so there are thousands of rare items available per day. Yes, including grapes. 

Honestly, how many people will want more than a couple of traders? As Nitin pointed out, we're able to see and accept all buy and sell orders within our trade visibility (guess those in remote regions will want to have more traders for this reason). Anyone in the more densely packed areas will have access to any commodity they want even without a trader. Personally, I don't see myself as an avid trader (though that could change), so I don't foresee eventually having more than a few traders. That means I'll need to come across 6 barrels of wine (for 4 total traders) max in the next few months. That doesn't sound unfeasible.


Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 20:08
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

Originally posted by nitin2011 nitin2011 wrote:

I also think many of us do not know that we have default visibility to all the hubs in a certain radius, so one can buy a "sell order" or sell to a "buy order" without having a trader in these hubs.

I believe the hub visibility radius is dependent on the cities marketplace level.

Per GM TC, a city's market has visibility = 100 sqs + (mrkt lvl * 5).  So minimum of 105 sqs and max of 200 sqs.


Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 22:28
maybe u should share accounts that have traders, remember there is the babysit function that allows several to share an account, the account holder can switch people in and out depending on need. an organized system would cover alot of the hubs for a very low cost


Posted By: nitin2011
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 22:58
Originally posted by gameplayer gameplayer wrote:

maybe u should share accounts that have traders, remember there is the babysit function that allows several to share an account, the account holder can switch people in and out depending on need. an organized system would cover alot of the hubs for a very low cost

It's a neat and practical idea, the way I see things going at least for now is that the local hubs will be for basic and adv res and for targeted buying for rare regional stuff (from new players which do not have Centrum access) where as for rare res the bulk of the trades will be in Centrum. 

People dealing in buying/selling of basic and adv res will move to local hubs due to tax savings and storage benefits once they have few traders - this will also become critical when trade visibility is in effect


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2012 at 00:01
Originally posted by nitin2011 nitin2011 wrote:

 for rare res the bulk of the trades will be in Centrum 
Propaganda by the centralists.  Real traders buy and sell regionally, of course not the same region.   Down with Centrum, hail the undying flame... Tongue


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2012 at 00:06
Originally posted by dunnoob dunnoob wrote:

Originally posted by nitin2011 nitin2011 wrote:

 for rare res the bulk of the trades will be in Centrum 
Propaganda by the centralists.  Real traders buy and sell regionally, of course not the same region.   Down with Centrum, hail the undying flame... Tongue


Centrum is over 29 hours away with level 20 market. Centrum will never see my goods :P
I'll join you in the protest!


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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: Cleopatra
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2012 at 07:27
Whether or not there are enough grapes on the map or not is not actually the problem, in my opinion. 

First of all, it is not finding grape patches on the map that is a problem. I can see plenty of them. I also see occupying army forces on virtually all of them. As a newer player, I am not about to try and wrangle those occupied grapes away from someone who has been playing for a couple of years and could squish me like a bug.  So whether or not there is enough to go around is completely irrelevant to me.  I don't have any I can get access to, so I don't have any.  Which means that even thinking about using the trade system is pointless for me.  I am not really worried about this, I have other stuff I need to get done right now anyways.  The trade researches and facgtion hub system will still be around in a couple months...or years....so I'll just wait til whenever I get big enough to dump someone off of some of those grapes and horde em myself.  

The hording is understandable.  Limited resources are going to cause people to want to horde the resources for themselves if they can, in order to profit off of having something that no one else does.  

The actual issue with all of this is that what people are really hording isn't grapes.  What they are ACTUALLY hording is access to the market. But if you don't let anyone else have access to the market, who are you going to trade with? 

The other people hording grapes.  LOL That is it. No one else can make traders. To bad the other grape horders don't need YOUR grapes.  They have their own. 

People are trying to sell the grapes/wine for outrageous prices right now because they have a monopoly on the resource.  Here is the problem with that. If you pay an outrageous sum just to use the market then you defeat the entire purpose of being able to use the market.  The idea is to make gold. Paying for the grapes and wine would currently cost me far more than I could conceivable stand to make.  If I can't make any gold in the market, there isn't any point in trying to get access to it.  So I don't need any grapes.   

Especially when I can just bypass the markets and trade resources with my alliance members, who are scattered all over the map, have access to the stuff I don't, don't have access to stuff that I do, and like me enough not to price gouge me like the people in the market would.  

Smaller players gain far more by simply bartering with other small players to get the things they need.  I may not make any gold this way, but at least I also did not lose a ton buying my way into a market that has no one else in it to trade with anyways.  

The only people who are going to actually be able to use the faction hub system in a meaningful way is going to be all the people who are trying to create a bottleneck on the resources so that they can make massive profit off of them.  But it is hard to make a profit if no one can even see you sitting on all those grapes in those faction hubs farther than 100 units away.  

Eventually I am sure that people will settle down and stop occupying every rare resource they can get their troops on simply to keep anyone else from playing with em. I'm sure a couple months from now grapes will no longer be an issue and everything will settle down.  

Until then, I am sure that there will be players who are a little short on common sense who are willing to pay the astronomical fees the grape and wine dictators demand. People who want access to the market enough to ignore the fact that they are never going to make enough in the markets to balance out the cost.  


Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2012 at 08:09
Over a week ago, I stated that this update would isolate newer players from participating in trade except through meta-gamed black market features. 



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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Captain Ganoes Paran
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2012 at 08:36
new players can make one trader for free (no wine ) so they can use the trade hubs ,ofcourse only one trader makes it hard to specialize in trade 


Posted By: Faldrin
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2012 at 14:28
Originally posted by Captain Ganoes Paran Captain Ganoes Paran wrote:

new players can make one trader for free (no wine ) so they can use the trade hubs ,ofcourse only one trader makes it hard to specialize in trade 

They can still accept trades. They just cant make their own.


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Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2012 at 15:31
Originally posted by Captain Ganoes Paran Captain Ganoes Paran wrote:

new players can make one trader for free (no wine ) so they can use the trade hubs ,ofcourse only one trader makes it hard to specialize in trade 

Yes but they can see trade hubs within their viability and buy from there, and send out a trader to a distant hub for buying/selling at that market. 


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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2012 at 16:25
New players can ask the players to share the grapes as a large player with only 1-3 cotters in a city would from a smaller player with 10 cotters harvesting for them.


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2012 at 16:55
Originally posted by Cleopatra Cleopatra wrote:




Whether or not there are enough grapes on the map or not is not actually the problem, in my opinion. 

First of all, it is not finding grape patches on the map that is a problem. I can see plenty of them. I also see occupying army forces on virtually all of them. As a newer player, I am not about to try and wrangle those occupied grapes away from someone who has been playing for a couple of years and could squish me like a bug.  So whether or not there is enough to go around is completely irrelevant to me.  I don't have any I can get access to, so I don't have any.  Which means that even thinking about using the trade system is pointless for me.  I am not really worried about this, I have other stuff I need to get done right now anyways.  The trade researches and facgtion hub system will still be around in a couple months...or years....so I'll just wait til whenever I get big enough to dump someone off of some of those grapes and horde em myself.  

The hording is understandable.  Limited resources are going to cause people to want to horde the resources for themselves if they can, in order to profit off of having something that no one else does.  

The actual issue with all of this is that what people are really hording isn't grapes.  What they are ACTUALLY hording is access to the market. But if you don't let anyone else have access to the market, who are you going to trade with? 

The other people hording grapes.  LOL That is it. No one else can make traders. To bad the other grape horders don't need YOUR grapes.  They have their own. 

People are trying to sell the grapes/wine for outrageous prices right now because they have a monopoly on the resource.  Here is the problem with that. If you pay an outrageous sum just to use the market then you defeat the entire purpose of being able to use the market.  The idea is to make gold. Paying for the grapes and wine would currently cost me far more than I could conceivable stand to make.  If I can't make any gold in the market, there isn't any point in trying to get access to it.  So I don't need any grapes.   

Especially when I can just bypass the markets and trade resources with my alliance members, who are scattered all over the map, have access to the stuff I don't, don't have access to stuff that I do, and like me enough not to price gouge me like the people in the market would.  

Smaller players gain far more by simply bartering with other small players to get the things they need.  I may not make any gold this way, but at least I also did not lose a ton buying my way into a market that has no one else in it to trade with anyways.  

The only people who are going to actually be able to use the faction hub system in a meaningful way is going to be all the people who are trying to create a bottleneck on the resources so that they can make massive profit off of them.  But it is hard to make a profit if no one can even see you sitting on all those grapes in those faction hubs farther than 100 units away.  

Eventually I am sure that people will settle down and stop occupying every rare resource they can get their troops on simply to keep anyone else from playing with em. I'm sure a couple months from now grapes will no longer be an issue and everything will settle down.  

Until then, I am sure that there will be players who are a little short on common sense who are willing to pay the astronomical fees the grape and wine dictators demand. People who want access to the market enough to ignore the fact that they are never going to make enough in the markets to balance out the cost.  





This is what is happening and will happen. Very sharp. "grape and wine dictators" is especially witty.

For me, grapes is virtually a non-issue.

There are 2 spots with grapes near one of my towns. I have harvested off and on from them since my first Cotters ventured into the wild. I made my wine-less Trader and I have enough grapes to make two more (I am not ready to make them yet since I am not a trade focused player) so at this point I am done gathering grapes. My "marker" armies are going to stay there for now as my alliance mates begin gathering their own grapes from these spots. I will eventually leave them and perhaps someone else will occupy but I figure within a couple of months they will remain unoccupied because they will become less and less important as time goes on and eventually will be virtually worthless as all the players interested in building more than a single Trader will have gotten what they need.

Circumstances will certainly be different for different locations, but I believe the demand for grapes will drop off and I think it's probable it will happen with a crash.

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2012 at 02:42
Originally posted by Aurordan Aurordan wrote:

I love it.
I hate it until I find it, where is it?  Is the Trends research by itself supposed to have any visible effect, does it only unlock further research for the market graphs, or has it simply no effect in towns without traders? Confused


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2012 at 03:22
Originally posted by abstractdream abstractdream wrote:

 I believe the demand for grapes will drop off
+1  My idea to get 3 trade, 2 gatherer, and 1 crafting town was a dubious plan; but let's assume that players with pop 10K or more want an average of 4 traders.  For that they need 0+1+1+2 barrels of wine.  

Smaller players might try to get 2 traders, one for a nearby hub used as mega-warehouse, and one roaming trader used to sell their gathered locally not-so-rare resources far away where they are really rare.  But I'd guess that smaller players use an average of 1 trader.  For that they'll need no wine.

There are about 3000 players at or above 10K pop, shown in the pop rankings.  Ignoring inactive or abandoned accounts an average of 4 traders for these players results in an immediate demand of 12K barrels of wine.  That will take some time, e.g., I hope to be ready to sell a barrel of wine next month.  With some luck it might be still precious, but I'm not betting on it.  

Of course if it turns out that everybody wants ten traders the big Illy wine crash won't be too soon


Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2012 at 13:07
unless the npc hubs provide special items traded by npc traders, bartering is a much simpler process then all the work it takes for hub trading, hopefully the game has plans for special trade items at each hub location, items that are non-transferable...this would give a much greater need for grapes


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 00:37
Originally posted by dunnoob dunnoob wrote:


Originally posted by Aurordan Aurordan wrote:

I love it.
I hate it until I find it, where is it?  Is the Trends research by itself supposed to have any visible effect, does it only unlock further research for the market graphs, or has it simply no effect in towns without traders? Confused


Trends only unlocks the further research required to view Candlestick graphs, Volume graphs, Supply and Demand graphs and complete numerical data (with download option.) The graphs and data, when unlocked are available from the town with the research for every visible Hub as well as each Region with a town (I assume this will be useful when trade visibility is enabled.)

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Sisren
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 00:45
Am I correct to assume that the trending chart isnt actually showing trending?

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Illy is different from Physics-
Reactions are rarely Equal, and rarely the opposite of what you'd expect...


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 01:05
I think it shows trends starting when you finish the research.  As such, if you just finished the research then it wouldn't show anything.



Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 01:21
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

I think it shows trends starting when you finish the research.  As such, if you just finished the research then it wouldn't show anything.




Above is the graph I currently see (dating glitch included) in my Trends researched town (research completed on August 20 @ 4:14am) This graph looks just like the first in the series of 3 in TC's OP. It does show the trends, as far back as 10 days, which as far as I know (I can see them in every town on both accounts) are available for everyone as they were before. The difference here is the Volume, which I haven't seen on my other town's graphs. This may or may not be added with the Trends research, IDK.


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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 03:00
Sorry, I should have checked before posting :(  I can see all history when there is any (not all things have been traded since Aug 11).

The text for Trend Analysis research:

Beyond simple average prices, you may also wish to know what volume of trade has occurred in different markets, over time. With this Research, you can see the volumes of each good traded for any region you have a town in or any region where you have a Trader in a Faction Hub.

indicates the Trend Analysis research is needed to see volume.  But any city I have with the Trends research shows volume.

And cities with the Trend Analysis research show ave buy and ave sell prices and by the text of the Trends research these should have been made available with that research option.

The text for Trends research:

Data, and the analysis of data, will give your Traders an edge – allowing you to understand events in the markets and react appropriately, maximising your profit.

As well as graphing the average buy and sell prices; for any region you have a town in or any region where you have a Trader in a Faction Hub, this Research unlocks a series of further Researches which will give you a clearer view of data relating to the markets.

I think they switched the effects of those two research (or the descriptions are switched). Ouch

Strangely, in cities where I have the Trend Analysis research, for some markets (not necessarily all) I see different average price graphs than I do for cities without that research.  Since all my cities are in the same region this doesn't make sense?  For other markets, the average price graphs do match in different cities.  It's honestly a pain to switch cities and markets and then go to the graphs.  I've done it half a dozen times and I think it's messed up but I could have been clicking wrong too so double check.



Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 17:57
They fixed the flipped researches you mentioned, Trends and Trends Analysis just today.

As for the graphing discrepancy you asked about, my town (only one so far) with Trend Analysis research completed is in a different region than every other town on the account, however I have 2 towns in that region on my other account and they show the same graph when showing all markets. For individual markets, visibility is different but the markets each town has in common seem to be the same. I can find no discrepancies between towns on the same markets.

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Bonfyr Verboo



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