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11AUG12 - MAJOR RELEASE (Trade)

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URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3988
Printed Date: 23 Aug 2019 at 01:25
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Topic: 11AUG12 - MAJOR RELEASE (Trade)
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Subject: 11AUG12 - MAJOR RELEASE (Trade)
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 18:22
Major Release - Trade v2

Where do you come from, where do you go?
From your town, you can still place Buy and Sell Orders for the basic and advanced resources that can be created in towns. And you can still see other Orders placed by other towns. And you can still accept these Orders. None of this has changed.
You can also see any Orders placed in your closest available Faction Hub. Orders in Faction Hubs are not restricted to the basic and advanced resources. They can also be for gathered resources and equipment.
From your town you can accept Orders in your nearest available Hub, or in other towns, without the need for any new units or buildings. And you can still place Orders in your town market, exactly as before. But you cannot, as default, place Orders in your local Faction Hub....
So I must leave, I'll have to go, to...
From today, you can send Trader Units to Faction Hubs.
A list of the Faction Hubs can be found here:  http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction" rel="nofollow - http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Faction
In order to make a Trader you will need a Merchant's Guild, and a level 10 Market, and you will need to complete the Trader Research.
Traders are produced in your Market. They take up to 8 days to recruit (reduced based on the level of your Merchant's Guild). Recruitment costs are not cheap, and after your first Trader (which does not require Wine) each unit requires increasing amounts of Wine to recruit.
The purpose of Traders is that they unlock the Faction Hubs for you. With a Trader in a Hub you can place Buy and Sell Orders there.
If you wish to place Buy or Sell Orders in a Faction Hub, you will need:
  • A Trader in that Hub
  • A Trade Office in the town that that Trader came from
  • The relevant Researches unlocked (at least Selling or Procurement, found at the foot of the Trade page of the Research tree)
Traders can travel around from one Hub to another, or can return to their home town, as you wish. If you want to move a Trader from one Hub to another, they can move there directly. They do not have to go back to their town first.
Take a caravan to the motherland
You now have more options for Caravan movement.
You can still send Caravans on round trip expeditions to other peoples' towns, or to gather basic resources, or to complete Quests. All of these functions are unchanged. You can also send Caravans from your town to accept Orders in your nearest Faction Hub.
But now, additionally, you can send your Caravans to any Faction Hub that you wish, as a one-way journey. If you choose the checkbox "After delivery stay and await further orders"; which will show when sending to a hub, when Caravans arrive at the Hub, they stop, and await further orders.
From a Hub, you can either send your Caravans back to their home town, or you can send them to another Hub at which you have a Trader. In theory you could have all your Caravans constantly moving from one Hub to another, rarely or never going home. There is no limit to the number of Hub to Hub journeys that Caravans can make.
If you send Caravans to a Hub where you do not have a Trader unit, they will however automatically unload and will bounce back to their sending location.
Note, if you have caravans and/or inventory at a hub and send the trader at the hub away, those caravans and goods will be inaccessible to you until you return a trader to the hub.
Grab that cash... and make a stash
In order to send caravans to a hub, you will need to complete the Faction Markets Research (on the Trade page of the Research tree). This will allow you unload your caravans at any hub where you have a > -35 faction standing. To be able to load the caravans or get caravans to stay at the hub when they arrive you will need to have a Trader at that hub. 
On the plus side: You have unlimited storage at any Faction Hub that you have access to. There is no cost for this. You can load and unload any goods here to any of your Caravans present at the Hub. You only need the Faction Markets research to restock your hub from any town.
On the minus side: You can only load if you have a Trader present, so you have to keep a Trader at the Hub if you want the goods to be accessible. You can only send your Caravans onwards with these goods to another Hub, or back to to one of your towns, so this cannot be used as a staging post for sending goods to other players' towns. If you want to return the caravans back to your town pool - you can again send them on a one way trip back to their owning town.
Your lovin' don't pay my bills
Your trade transactions are still handled through your Markets screen. Here,  http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Trade/Markets" rel="nofollow - http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Trade/Markets , you can see Orders in other players' towns, and your closest Faction Hub.
For Town Orders, you click to Accept the Order, exactly as before. You will see that the buttons to Accept the Orders are now labelled Buy ALL and Sell MAX. If you click on these you get a pop-up box confirming the cost of the transaction and the number of Caravans required. Click Confirm to complete the transaction. Your Caravans will head off with the goods or gold that you are exchanging, and the other party's Caravans will bring their gold or goods to you.
That is all much as before. So why do the buttons say Sell MAX and Buy ALL?
If you are Accepting an Order from a Faction Hub, things are different.
First, for Faction Hub Orders, when you click Buy or Sell, you can then enter the amount that you wish to trade. You do not have to Sell nor Buy the full volume of the order, as with town trades. So, if someone has put 100,000 Stone up for sale, and you only want 600, that's fine – you can choose to just buy 600. Or you could buy the whole lot, as you choose. This gives you much more flexibility – you are no longer constrained to accept the full amounts on offer.
Second, for Faction Hub Orders, the person accepting the Order provides transport for all goods and gold involved. So, if you buy 210,000 Wood for an amount of gold, you do not just have to send one Caravan with the gold – you have to send Caravans to pick up and transport back all that Wood, too. With Faction Hub Orders, the accepting player is responsible for transport in both directions.

Third, for Faction Hub Orders, if you have a trader at the hub and providing you have the gold (or the goods) present in your inventory at the hub, you can choose to fulfill another players' order directly in the hub without involving any caravans at all.
The only thing a gambler needs....
If you wish to place Orders for profit, you will start by clicking the Place Sell Order and Place Buy Order buttons at the foot of the Markets page.
If you are placing an Order from your town, you select the price and quantity.
If you are placing an Order in a Hub, you can load up any quantity that you want into one Order. As buyers do not have to purchase all at once. So, if you are trying to shift a huge stockpile, you could put the whole lot in one Order, set a price, and then let various buyers come along and buy it piecemeal. You do not have to guess how many units someone might want to buy.
Also, when you set up an Order in a Faction Hub, you do not have to assign Caravans to these. The person accepting the Order is obliged to provide transport for anything they buy. This will allow you to trade in much larger quantities than before, but only through Faction Hubs.
Every rose has its thorn
One final piece of the new Trade system is Taxation.
There is now a cost for each transaction. The person providing the goods pays the tax. Whether you are receiving money from a Sell Order or providing goods to a Buy Order, you pay the tax.
When you place a goods sell order, you pay the full amount of tax up front when you create the sale, and if you cancel the trade order you do not receive any tax refund.
On Town trades the tax rate is always 7.5%.
Hub Trades are cheaper, and the exact rate depends upon Faction Standing of the person with the goods.
The lowest tax rate at any Faction Hub is a shade above 1% for those with a very high Faction Standing. The highest tax rate is 5%, for those with poor Faction Standings. So, if you're buying or selling goods, you might want to seek out Hubs where you have a good Standing.
Note also that if you have a really low Faction Standing, less than -35, you cannot trade at a Hub. You can see your Faction Standing with each Faction on their Faction page.

It's all relative to the size of your steeple
Finally, we are now revising the way that Trade Scores are calculated on Global Rankings.
From today, all Trade Scores will be reset to zero. Trade Scores will now be earned based on the gold value of all goods which you sell, credited at the point of sale. You do not get a score for buying goods, or for sending goods directly between towns.
Soon, maybe not tomorrow
In the future – the very near future - we will switch Blockade back on.
Further in the future, we will institute a visibility radius for town trades, so that you can only see and accept Orders placed by towns close to you, in your local trade hub (and any hub within your visibility radius) or in any hub where you have a trader present. 

As this will reduce the number of town Offers that you will be able to see, your local Faction Hub will increasingly be a source for trade in basic resources. That is in the future. We have no firm date for this.
And in the far future, who knows? Perhaps Faction Hubs will become more important, perhaps for reasons beyond trade. But for now, there are plenty of new areas for you to explore, without worrying about what we might or might not add in the future.
We hope you enjoy getting to grips with the new features!



Replies:
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 18:23
GM Luna sneaking in and posing as GM SC. 


There is a guide in the Help files section with some more information on using trade with the new changes. Please take a look at it and it should help you understand the differences a little better, as well as how to use the new trading hubs.


http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/9-trade_topic3989.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/9-trade_topic3989.html

GM Luna


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GM Stormcrow | http://bit.ly/rLKfoT" rel="nofollow - Twitter | http://on.fb.me/uvfajA" rel="nofollow - Facebook | http://bit.ly/rBzlzf" rel="nofollow - G+


Posted By: Jabbels
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 18:44
Awesome! Loads of updates lately - Going to take awhile to get my head around this all though! :D

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Posted By: monkeyfeather
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 18:47
Where do our taxes go? We demand transparency!

"If you send Caravans to a Hub where you do not have a Trader unit, they will however automatically unload and will bounce back to their sending location."

Does this refer to their point of origin, or the last Hub?


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 18:53
Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:


You can also see any Orders placed in your closest available Faction Hub. Orders in Faction Hubs are not restricted to the basic and advanced resources. They can also be for gathered resources and equipment.
From your town you can accept Orders in your nearest available Hub, or in other towns, without the need for any new units or buildings. And you can still place Orders in your town market, exactly as before. But you cannot, as default, place Orders in your local Faction Hub....

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Your trade transactions are still handled through your Markets screen. Here,  http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Trade/Markets" rel="nofollow - http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Trade/Markets , you can see Orders in other players' towns, and your closest Faction Hub.

When I click on "Visible Trade Hubs Only" I get a message:

"You can see no items  on the market in this location"

Do I need a trader (and the research) to use the closest trade/faction hub or not?  Why do I have six trade hubs listed under the "Trade Hubs" section?



Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 18:55
@Salararius, it's probably because no one has posted items for sale on hubs yet. Best guess.

Luna


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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk



Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 18:58
Yay!
Thanks. This looks quite good. I am excited...please ignore all the nay saying to come.

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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:06
Originally posted by GM Luna GM Luna wrote:

@Salararius, it's probably because no one has posted items for sale on hubs yet. Best guess.

Luna

OK, so it's the same message if you can't see a hub and if there are no items there?  How come I have six hubs listed on the Locations and they all give me that message?  Potentially, can I see six hubs (I have no traders)?



Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:07
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

Originally posted by GM Luna GM Luna wrote:

@Salararius, it's probably because no one has posted items for sale on hubs yet. Best guess.

Luna

OK, so it's the same message if you can't see a hub and if there are no items there?  How come I have six hubs listed on the Locations and they all give me that message?  Potentially, can I see six hubs (I have no traders)?


Yes it is possible that you could see 6 hubs based on both your location and the level of your marketplace (that adds visibility distance).

Luna


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GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk



Posted By: Fyzz
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:10
Awesome - first orders already up :), Thanks 


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:11
Originally posted by GM Luna GM Luna wrote:

Yes it is possible that you could see 6 hubs based on both your location and the level of your marketplace (that adds visibility distance).

Very helpful, thank you



Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:11
So is it like

Traders are not attached your cities. You could trade from any city through a hub as long as one of your trader is present in the hub and you have the relevant technologies and a trading post.

Merchant's guilds are required only to train Traders. You could demolish a merchant guild after you have built the traders you need, and build the guild again whenever you want to train another trader. Demolishing merchant's guilds will not affect existing traders in any way (as they are not tied to them by any level requirements)




Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:13
Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:


In the future – the very near future - we will switch Blockade back on.


 Clap


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:14
This is going to be interesting and challenging.  I'm trying to track down my current sell orders.  Hopefully I will find them soon(tm).


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:18
FYI - I placed a buy order with the new system.  Now I can't see the trade movement screen from that city.  Petition was sent, this is to let other players know.



Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:29
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

FYI - I placed a buy order with the new system.  Now I can't see the trade movement screen from that city.  Petition was sent, this is to let other players know.

Fixed :)


Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 19:36
Yes, there are likely to be some whack-a-mole bugs that come up with a release of this size.  Please keep petitioning them with as much detail as possible and we'll squash them as they come through.

SC


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 20:03
I love this whole update, keep up the great work!

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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 20:12
I like the update.



P.S.
Distance sort does not work properly. It is alphabetical sort and distances like 1012 came before distances like 43...


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 20:23
Luna's guide says: "The person with the goods pays the taxes" (makes sense, it is the person supposed to get some gold).  The guide also says that taxes for cancelled orders are not refunded, so if I try to sell goods for excessively high prices I'll lose when I eventually give up and cancel the sell order.

But when I try to buy at excessively low prices, and cancel that order later, I'm not the person with the goods.  Does this mean that cancelling buy orders is free, no taxes paid? 


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 20:43
I am not happy about the non-refundable taxes on sell orders (along with no penalties for canceling buy orders).  This means that sellers of goods have substantially less flexibility than do buyers.  I can say personally it's going to make me a lot more reluctant to put up sell orders, since I have no desire to lose money based on market fluctuations.

I do not see any strong rationale for making the tax on sell orders non-refundable; if you want to avoid having people game the system, the existence of the tax on accepted sell orders should be sufficient for that purpose.

Can anyone explain to me the reason that having the tax be paid regardless of whether an item is sold is an advantage in any way to promoting commerce or prevents some sort of exploit?  (Other than making it harder for sellers to respond to market dynamics and therefore posting artificially depressed prices for their goods.)

Goods can be "hidden" from theft at a trade hub without ever placing a sell order and retrieved using an ordinary caravan as long as the player has a trader present, so this rule does not reflect or impose a penalty for using faction hubs to avoid theft.

If this was not implemented for any reason related to game mechanics and instead was put in place to simplify coding (such as how to assess tax on partially accepted sell orders), then I think that was a poor decision on the part of the developers.  

At this time, I see the rule as being unnecessary and unfun.  I am interested in people who disagree, in particular those who disagree based on some rationale other than "the developers worked hard and we are lucky to have an update."

Yes, the developers worked hard and lots of exciting changes are happening.  That doesn't mean that every choice they have made is the right one.

So ... what are the benefits of this particular choice?  I'm open to the possibility that this is a great feature I just don't fully appreciate yet.


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 20:52
I like to view the idea as a gold sink, a way to pull gold out of the game. Every game needs a gold sink and this game is no exception. 

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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:00
Originally posted by Quackers Quackers wrote:

I like to view the idea as a gold sink, a way to pull gold out of the game. Every game needs a gold sink and this game is no exception. 

Units do that too.  It would be better if there were some control of the gold source.  Pop and dead animals just magically produces gold.  There is no cycle.  Pop/animal magically make gold and units magically make it go away and now faction hubs magically make it go away too.

In a real economy the troops would spend money on stuff from the pop and the local pop would buy/sell from itself (net zero) and other surrounding pops (local + or -, could be a lot of game variables here) and the king would take money from local pop (taxes) and the king would give money to troops.  Reinforcing troops would spend money in other cities, raiding troops bring money back.  Faction hubs would tax trade and buy from surrounding pop and kings...etc.



Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:04
Every game needs a gold sink? Why?  And assuming there is a rationale, what makes this a good or effective one?


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:05
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Every game needs a gold sink? Why?  And assuming there is a rationale, what makes this a good or effective one?

inflation



Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:07
It seems unlikely that the tax on canceled sell orders will have any substantial long-term effect on inflation, unless it does so by inhibiting the overall growth of the economy.  Most economists believe that a little bit of inflation is a good thing -- it spurs consumption, for example.


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:09
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

 I am interested in people who disagree 
I might disagree if taxes for orders at faction hubs are always paid by the trader, buy and sell alike, and if trade v2 scores are based on accepted orders, buy and sell alike.  But if that's really not the case I agree with your curiosity.Wink 


Posted By: dmar
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:11
So when we send a trader to a non-local hub we can see stuff that is there, accept and place orders.  While sending traders to a local (visible) hub provides just  the benefit of placng orders at it.

Am I right?


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:19
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Every game needs a gold sink? Why?  And assuming there is a rationale, what makes this a good or effective one?


Everyone likes to have the lowest orders on the market (which is not needed with this new system). I've played many games with this system and I have enjoyed it alot. It makes buying/selling off the market great and really improves the game. It takes millions of gold off the market and helps stabilize the economy.

You will come to love the system Rill, it is really a good one.

And yes this system will take millions of gold out of the game, I say at least 50-100m a month.

I am truly impressed that the developers are able and have went to this market system. It will improve the game and turn this game around. As long as they don't start getting greedy with the prestige.





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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:41
I actually purposely don't set my trade orders at the lowest price.  Never have.  I set my orders at the highest price that I think is likely to sell in a reasonable period of time.  This system is going to discourage actual thought and just encourage people to place their orders at the lowest price.

I am not sure I'm interested in selling under these conditions.  Black market for me and trade score be darned.

Please note: I have no objection to the tax, I think it's a great idea.  The problem I have is with a tax that is charged for NOT selling things.


Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:43
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Every game needs a gold sink? Why?  And assuming there is a rationale, what makes this a good or effective one?

Without a gold sink, player gold just keeps growing. Sure you can trade it among each other, but it never goes away. This is a problem. 

The reason this is a problem, is because when players have 5,000,000,000 gold, they don't care about throwing around a few 100,000,000 to purchase some grapes (or any other resource). 

This system eats up some of your gold, but that just means you need to calculate it into your sales price, like real merchants do. Meaning those players that enjoy playing business tycon are about to have a lot of fun. This is also encourages players to be smarter about what you put out there for sale. 


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:45
Again, I'm not questioning the tax, I'm questioning the fact that the tax is imposed in such a way as to inhibit pricing flexibility.  The argument that it makes people smarter about the prices they post does not make sense, since an intelligent merchant adjusts prices according to supply and demand.  This actually forces people to act dumber, not smarter.


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 21:50
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I am not happy about the non-refundable taxes on sell orders (along with no penalties for canceling buy orders).  This means that sellers of goods have substantially less flexibility than do buyers.  I can say personally it's going to make me a lot more reluctant to put up sell orders, since I have no desire to lose money based on market fluctuations.
 
The non refundable tax makes it difficult to monopolize the trade of a certain material by undercutting prices. (the kind of profit-without-production trade where people set up prices 1 gold less than the current price)

This also forces people with extremely large quantities of stuff to lower their price - like raw materials sales by people living near the trade hubs. 

Tax for buy orders is not fair. You do not have a resource, you try to get it from somewhere, and in the pursuit you loose money without any guarantee of success.

Since buy orders doesn't cost anything now, it will hopefully keep the prices floating.





Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:07
I was surprised to hear the prices of rare herbs in the black market - varying from 50,000 to 120,000 per unit. How much are they actually worth? Just because all resources are not available at all places, prices are pushed up like this, often without competition. A non refundable tax is a good check on extremely unfair sell offers.


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:10
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Again, I'm not questioning the tax, I'm questioning the fact that the tax is imposed in such a way as to inhibit pricing flexibility.  The argument that it makes people smarter about the prices they post does not make sense, since an intelligent merchant adjusts prices according to supply and demand.  This actually forces people to act dumber, not smarter.


I don't get how to explain this to you Rill. Guess I'll try to give an example on how it worked on the other game. Big player had 10,000 of this item so he set it at 500 gold per item. Well with the tax he had to pay 250,000 gold tax, but would get 5,000,000 gold from the sale. Well he is unlikely to change the price because it would hurt his profit. This allowed the new players sell 10 of that item for 150 gold. Undercutting the big player but the vets that needed more of the item would normally just buy off the vet or eat up all the smaller offers until they got the amount that is needed.

Making it so people never really needed to adjust prices. Though there were price wars on some items where the community won. People where trying to undercut other people which made prices of abundant items almost worthless. At that point most people just left the price over market value or took it off until markets stabilized again.

This new set-up is also amazing for the people that want to be traders. This will help them understand the market and help them control the market if they wished. If all these people are selling hides for 50gold each and someone puts up 100,000 hides for 500 gold, this market will get people to stop selling for 50gold and start trying to sell closer to the 500. Still undercutting the 500 but allowing that player to adjust the market prices. Which allowed the trader to make vast sums of gold by predicting the market and changing it to his need.

True this helps new players more then vets but it also helps take the market to a whole new level. You will see people trying all sorts of new things and the tax wont be something you need to worry about once you can influence the faction standing. On another note you will see people buy from the higher price goods more often then the lower price just so they can get more of what they need faster. (much easier to just buy bulk then saving money buying up all the little ones.)


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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:13
but taxing for selling a resource, where you have too much of it, you want to get rid of it to someone and in the pursuit you lose money without guarantee of success ... that's fair?


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:15
I fail to see where imposing a penalty for changing the price of an item makes it MORE likely that people will change the price of an item.  That is completely illogical.


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:22
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I fail to see where imposing a penalty for changing the price of an item makes it MORE likely that people will change the price of an item.  That is completely illogical.


Does not always have to be logical Rill. Price war is fun and manipulating the market is even better. If people can make more of a profit they will do it. If they just want fast cash then they will undercut people. All depends on what the person wants.


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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: nitin2011
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:38
my 2 cents:

If you are a buyer - you will  place a buy order and the same will be filled by a seller (via town) or by a trader(via hub)

If you are a trader - you will NOT put a sell order but only fulfill a buy order placed by others, and every trader know how to keep a store of res and hold on to his items

If you are a seller - because you want to make sure your goods are sold (as no tax refund) you will place a bargain/best sell order - trader again will buy it to hoard the goods and to make sure price are in control or it will be purchased by a local buyer.
 
the new system gives a lot of power to traders to manage market - at least according to me :)


Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:38
Originally posted by Quackers Quackers wrote:

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I fail to see where imposing a penalty for changing the price of an item makes it MORE likely that people will change the price of an item.  That is completely illogical.


Does not always have to be logical Rill. Price war is fun and manipulating the market is even better. If people can make more of a profit they will do it. If they just want fast cash then they will undercut people. All depends on what the person wants.

+1 


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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:44
Originally posted by Quackers Quackers wrote:

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I fail to see where imposing a penalty for changing the price of an item makes it MORE likely that people will change the price of an item.  That is completely illogical.


Does not always have to be logical Rill. Price war is fun and manipulating the market is even better. If people can make more of a profit they will do it. If they just want fast cash then they will undercut people. All depends on what the person wants.

Your comment about price wars has nothing to do with my comment about penalties for changing sales prices.  If having price wars is "fun", then imposing a penalty for something that would be done in a price war is not going to increase or decrease that fun, except insofar as it might discourage people from changing prices and thus discourage people from engaging in price wars.

All I am saying is that imposing a penalty for changing prices makes it less, not more, likely that people will actually change prices.  This does not seem to be a complicated or difficult concept.


Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:46
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Originally posted by Quackers Quackers wrote:

Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I fail to see where imposing a penalty for changing the price of an item makes it MORE likely that people will change the price of an item.  That is completely illogical.


Does not always have to be logical Rill. Price war is fun and manipulating the market is even better. If people can make more of a profit they will do it. If they just want fast cash then they will undercut people. All depends on what the person wants.

Your comment about price wars has nothing to do with my comment about penalties for changing sales prices.  If having price wars is "fun", then imposing a penalty for something that would be done in a price war is not going to increase or decrease that fun, except insofar as it might discourage people from changing prices and thus discourage people from engaging in price wars.

All I am saying is that imposing a penalty for changing prices makes it less, not more, likely that people will actually change prices.  This does not seem to be a complicated or difficult concept.

sleep on it


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2012 at 22:47
To clarify, I think when there is a penalty for doing something, people tend to do it less than they would otherwise, assuming all other conditions were equal.  People will still do some of it (if there are sufficient incentives that outweigh the penalties), but in no way does imposing a penalty actually encourage a particular action.

penalty:  "A disadvantage or unpleasant experience suffered as the result of an action or circumstance"


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 00:43
When I look at clay, buy some clay, and then looking again at clay click "place buy order" the default wood makes no sense, it should be clay.


Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 01:52
Originally posted by geofrey geofrey wrote:

The reason this is a problem, is because when players have 5,000,000,000 gold, they don't care about throwing around a few 100,000,000 to purchase some grapes (or any other resource). 

That would only be true if inflation weren't a factor. If everyone is running around with 5B gold, then grapes aren't going to be selling for 1,000 each, they're going to be selling for 5,000 or 10,000 each. Reducing the amount of gold in the market means players likely going to sell things for cheaper. Removing gold from the game just changes the number, it doesn't change the mechanic. 


Posted By: Angrim
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 02:18
there is no game mechanic rationale for charging tax on items not sold that i can think of, Rill.  refunding the tax seems like a program feature that is simply missing.


Posted By: Rohk
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 03:50
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

I like the update.



P.S.
Distance sort does not work properly. It is alphabetical sort and distances like 1012 came before distances like 43...

In addition to the issue above, any sort you do in the market screen resets itself after each trade. Is it possible for the market to remember the sort last applied and automatically apply in the future (like the window positioning in the new UI)?


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http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/53810" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 03:50
Originally posted by Brids17 Brids17 wrote:

 If everyone is running around with 5B gold, then grapes aren't going to be selling for 1,000 each, they're going to be selling for 5,000 or 10,000 each. 
I swear that I have no 1B, no 100M, and no Censored, and gladly accept your sell offer of 1000 grapes for 1M.  Where should I send my van to?


Posted By: invictusa
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 05:10
If my alliance trades with factions that my neighboring faction appears to hate, will the neighboring faction dislike me more?

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...and miles to go before I sleep.


Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 05:53
Originally posted by Bonaparta Bonaparta wrote:

P.S.
Distance sort does not work properly. It is alphabetical sort and distances like 1012 came before distances like 43...
Numeric sorts are fixed. Default sort for Sell is lowest price per item first, default for by is highest price first.

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Posted By: Jalont
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 06:18
It's clear that the trade tax rate will cause those few of us that actually like to play traders to take all our sales to hubs.  There is simply no way to play the market with the current tax rate.  This will, of course, mean that we have to have deep specialization in trading.  I suppose it's only fair, as other play types will also come at a steep price, but I wonder if trade specialization comes at too steep a price.  There were very few dedicated traders to begin with.

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Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 07:35
The steep tax is ridiculous.  It simply took away the job of trader from us.  Now there is no way to buy/sell on the market and make a profit like there was.  Plus changing your price and being flexible eliminates any profit margin that the tax may have left over.     The market is much more of a pain in the butt compared to what it was.  This update completely removes the so called 'trader' job which they intended to add.  Further if this tax is meant to move things to the hubs, the hub taxes are still to high.  1% for high standings may be acceptable but 5% is still to high.  

Unless these taxes go to some aspect of the game that we haven't seen yet it should be greatly reduced otherwise trade and traders will flounder not flourish.  


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 08:06
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

The steep tax is ridiculous.  It simply took away the job of trader from us.  Now there is no way to buy/sell on the market and make a profit like there was.  Plus changing your price and being flexible eliminates any profit margin that the tax may have left over.     The market is much more of a pain in the butt compared to what it was.  This update completely removes the so called 'trader' job which they intended to add.  Further if this tax is meant to move things to the hubs, the hub taxes are still to high.  1% for high standings may be acceptable but 5% is still to high.  

Unless these taxes go to some aspect of the game that we haven't seen yet it should be greatly reduced otherwise trade and traders will flounder not flourish.  


May I ask how the tax is to high. If I were to sell 10k cows for 900 gold in the faction hub, I might get taxed what 450,000 gold? I'd get 9,000,000 gold. That is a 8,550,000 gold profit. How is that to high? It is a gold sink, get used to it.

If you are getting money from the deal you are paying a tax. You do not like the tax then charge the person for the tax? I say this opens up trade in a whole new way.


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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: DeathDealer89
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 08:12
If I buy 1000 saddles for 2000 each and then try to sell them for 2150 each i now make 0 profit.  Oh and by the way the profit margins for nearly every good is smaller than 7.5% and for those profit margins that are larger than that it is not by much.  Therefore they took away making a profit by being a trader, which is exactly what they said they wanted to add.  

Your example is of being a producer, it has very little to do with analyzing the market when compared to a trader.  

And troops are a gold sink, a much larger  gold sink than a trade tax will ever be.  Unless something else is to be added from tax, ie an alliance or player can somehow benefit from taxes paid in a certain way then all this tax update does is remove those of us who traded to make gold the exact opposite of what they intended.  


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 08:27
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

If I buy 1000 saddles for 2000 each and then try to sell them for 2150 each i now make 0 profit.  Oh and by the way the profit margins for nearly every good is smaller than 7.5% and for those profit margins that are larger than that it is not by much.  Therefore they took away making a profit by being a trader, which is exactly what they said they wanted to add.  

Your example is of being a producer, it has very little to do with analyzing the market when compared to a trader.  

And troops are a gold sink, a much larger  gold sink than a trade tax will ever be.  Unless something else is to be added from tax, ie an alliance or player can somehow benefit from taxes paid in a certain way then all this tax update does is remove those of us who traded to make gold the exact opposite of what they intended.  


There is much more to this then just buying and selling in one region. Prices should be different in each region and even from the market to the hub prices.  Buying from one region and selling to another should net you a profit.

 Not only that but that is not how this will all work out. New players will be buying little amounts while more advanced players will be buying in bulk. New players will have smaller amounts while larger players will have mass amounts. New players will always undercut vets. So while a new player is trying to sell 250 saddles for 800 gold. You still have a chance of selling 5,000 saddles for 1,500. It just depends on how many that person needs. Not only that but the higher someone prices something, the more likely that price will become closer to the norm for a while. It just depends on how many is in that region, the abundance of the item, and how many people are trying to sell it.

With this market I have seen prices on another game have an item for 500gold one day and upwards of 2.5k another day. It all depends on mass buying, people trying to undercut (which causes the mass buying and then the high prices afterwards), and the willingness to sell at that price.

You got to remember there are vast markets and many more chances for profit, and less competition.


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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: Sister Nikki
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 08:32
Are we falling in a complexity and do we need to buy a manual 200+ pages in order to play a game? Do you really believe that the recent updates add in the game? WOW
 - 1 Thumbs Down


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 08:35
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

If I buy 1000 saddles for 2000 each and then try to sell them for 2150 each i now make 0 profit.  Oh and by the way the profit margins for nearly every good is smaller than 7.5% and for those profit margins that are larger than that it is not by much.  Therefore they took away making a profit by being a trader, which is exactly what they said they wanted to add.  

Profit margins are smaller than 7.5% because everyone can adjust prices without penalty.

Buying saddles for 2000 and selling them for 2150 is not a very fun kind of trade - which is why most people do not do that. When the profit margins are at 20-300%, with high risks, being a trader may become of interest to people.




Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 08:39
I agree that a trader who offers a sell order, is taxed on that offer and then that offer is cancelled seems to be logically due a refund. The "sale" of goods should be the taxable act, not the offer. Merchants MUST pay fees and other sorts of "taxes" before ever opening their doors but I believe those types of taxes are covered in the building and upkeep of the player's own trade system. 

As for taxes in general, I think it's a good idea (in Illy anyway). "Smart" traders will "pass it on" as do RL merchants. I think that extra bit of realism is quite fun.


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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Ap0stle
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 08:40
The new tax forces you to offer and accept trades that make sense, assuming the point is not to lose gold on a trade, preferably gaining gold. Unless you have billions to spare for funding your buying/selling habit, it will force you to act like a trader. In that way it is not a gold sink but quite the opposite as it forces the trader to create added value when making trades.

As I understand it, this system addresses the major gripe everyone had with the trade scoring system, the fact that it was an easy system to game and thus became meaningless:
* The trading scores are now based on what you sell = on the goods you provide to the market.
* Providing goods to the market, either through accepting or posting trade offers, is being taxed at 1-7.5%

=> In order to break even, you need to sell your goods 1-7.5% higher than you bought them. Unless you have misjudged a trend and need to offload fast, or want to invest in influencing a market, no trade lower than the procurement (buying or crafting) cost + tax is going to make sense.

In the good old days, just creating movement of goods (between alts for example) used to be a effective way to pump up the trade score. Save for the time/opportunity cost (caravans moving/being unavailable for something else, ...), it was a frictionless market, a perpetuum mobile, and scores reflected willingness of a player to invest time in meaningless motion.

I guess players can still engage in this kind of behaviour, and I suspect we can still see top trade scores populated with billionaires converting their gold into trade points. If balanced correctly, tax rate versus 'free' gold influx, should make this a short term self-extinguishing activity.

So I'm for it, hoping it will level the field and reward traders who know how to trade.


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 08:59
Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

If I buy 1000 saddles for 2000 each and then try to sell them for 2150 each i now make 0 profit.  Oh and by the way the profit margins for nearly every good is smaller than 7.5% and for those profit margins that are larger than that it is not by much.  Therefore they took away making a profit by being a trader, which is exactly what they said they wanted to add.  

Profit margins are smaller than 7.5% because everyone can adjust prices without penalty.

Buying saddles for 2000 and selling them for 2150 is not a very fun kind of trade - which is why most people do not do that. When the profit margins are at 20-300%, with high risks, being a trader may become of interest to people.



In a restaurant (something I know a little bit about) if food cost goes over a range of about 25-28% there are going to be problems. In simple terms, if you are not charging around 4 times what it cost you to buy the food, you will be out of business very shortly. There are other factors (labor mostly and utilities and taxes among other things) but profit margin is razor thin. 3 to 5% is not terrible and 10% is actually quite good. 20% and you have a raging success on your hands.

In Illy it's less complicated but profit still drives the market. Risk still equals reward. Taxes will be passed on.



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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 09:16
3-5% is terrible, if you have to travel around the globe to make it .. and by the time you reach there with goods, the +5% profit you saw may have changed to -4% or so..


Posted By: hellion19
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 09:17
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

The steep tax is ridiculous.  It simply took away the job of trader from us.  Now there is no way to buy/sell on the market and make a profit like there was.  Plus changing your price and being flexible eliminates any profit margin that the tax may have left over.     The market is much more of a pain in the butt compared to what it was.  This update completely removes the so called 'trader' job which they intended to add.  Further if this tax is meant to move things to the hubs, the hub taxes are still to high.  1% for high standings may be acceptable but 5% is still to high.  

Unless these taxes go to some aspect of the game that we haven't seen yet it should be greatly reduced otherwise trade and traders will flounder not flourish.  


Completely agree with this post. One of the great things about Illyriad to me was the fact that we can play the market if we had enough time to play it. Its very similar to playing stocks in that you can try and buy low and sell high. Now this is still the case but the amount of change to make it happen is going to be painful for very limited gains if any at all. It makes the market not worth the risk for those that make a good bit of money there.

As DD's later example of saddles for 2k he would have to sell at 2150 to break even. The market usually doesn't fluctuate that much normally... dont get me wrong but I wish it did but it simply doesn't. So going the trader route makes things a bit difficult.

So if you do make much of a living on trading currently I find that your about to lose that source of income soon as you start using the new system. At least 1% is do-able and you will still gain a bit of profit but 7.5% is pretty crazy steep... Pretty certain this guild the idea of becoming a trader in the near future...


Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 09:41
Originally posted by Ander Ander wrote:

3-5% is terrible, if you have to travel around the globe to make it .. and by the time you reach there with goods, the +5% profit you saw may have changed to -4% or so..

Travel is an expense and should be figured just as any other expense. 3-5% profit means 3-5% of the gold you brought in is not part of your expenses. In simplest terms, profit is what the "owner" receives as compensation for his labor, after paying for everything.


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Bonfyr Verboo


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 09:49
I think the people most concerned about the tax are what we would refer to in the real world as the "market makers" for, for example, a stock or bond.  Basically what those folks do is work on the margin to ensure that there is always supply or demand for a good by buying excess supply or providing supply when there is not enough of it.  Those folks are essential to create a relatively efficient market.

Other people are discussing the idea of "market makers" across multiple trade hubs, people who will buy air salts in Qarosslan and sell them in Tallimar and then buy fire salts in Tallimar (or whatever they have there) and make a market for them in Qarosslan or somewhere similar.

In both of these situations the margin on trades is usually quite low and the market makers basically make money on volume of trades -- many gold times 1% is equal to a bit of gold times 50% or whatever.

In essence, there are a lot of different successful profit models:  You can make 1% on 1 million gold volume or 100% on 100,000 gold volume, either way you end up with 100k gold profit; in theory the required investment and overall ROI on each activity would end up being equal on a risk-adjusted basis.

Market makers who provide liquidity are essential for a reasonably successful market, and 7.5% might indeed make their task more difficult, although I also agree that the cost will eventually be priced into the market.  Charging the tax even for canceled orders can also eventually be priced in base on experience and simply represents an additional risk factor.

However, I do think it would make the market function better and be more fun to do away with taxes on canceled orders.


Posted By: hellion19
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 10:11
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

I think the people most concerned about the tax are what we would refer to in the real world as the "market makers" for, for example, a stock or bond.  Basically what those folks do is work on the margin to ensure that there is always supply or demand for a good by buying excess supply or providing supply when there is not enough of it.  Those folks are essential to create a relatively efficient market.

Other people are discussing the idea of "market makers" across multiple trade hubs, people who will buy air salts in Qarosslan and sell them in Tallimar and then buy fire salts in Tallimar (or whatever they have there) and make a market for them in Qarosslan or somewhere similar.

In both of these situations the margin on trades is usually quite low and the market makers basically make money on volume of trades -- many gold times 1% is equal to a bit of gold times 50% or whatever.

In essence, there are a lot of different successful profit models:  You can make 1% on 1 million gold volume or 100% on 100,000 gold volume, either way you end up with 100k gold profit; in theory the required investment and overall ROI on each activity would end up being equal on a risk-adjusted basis.

Market makers who provide liquidity are essential for a reasonably successful market, and 7.5% might indeed make their task more difficult, although I also agree that the cost will eventually be priced into the market.  Charging the tax even for canceled orders can also eventually be priced in base on experience and simply represents an additional risk factor.

However, I do think it would make the market function better and be more fun to do away with taxes on canceled orders.


You really have a thing for this canceled order thing... though I mostly agree with it as its part of trade normally... though at 7.5% that error is extremely costly and even more so in a market that is generally not as big on large jumps and declines.

I think if it was closer to 1-2% I would be just as fine with it still costing even on an order that is not filled as it would be the cost of your traders making said trades at their respective hubs. While at 7.5% its barely worth doing normal trades let alone trying to trade for profit unless you produced the goods yourself. If you do a lot of trading by buying surplus and selling it when markets are higher you will normally not get much more than 5% if that...


Posted By: Fyzz
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 10:17
Taxes should not be paid where a transaction does not take place imho.

However all change opens up new possibilities for profit :)


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 11:27
7.5% is extremely costly, i guess it was introduced to push everyone to the faction markets gradually.

currently town trades have the advantage that anyone in the game can see and accept the trade. Once the trade visibility factor is introduced, town trades will completely die out with 7.5% tax.

For friendly faction hubs, the margin must be 2-3%?


Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 11:42
One thing to remember is once we are able to influence the faction hub into liking us, the tax can be brought down to 1%.

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Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody.


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 14:57
We just went from a one variable market (time) to a two variable market (time and region).  The opportunity for profit just increased orders of magnitude for traders.  A fragmented market is where traders thrive and a global market takes out a lot of their profit opportunity.  The traders world just got magnitudes more interesting.  You can shift your trader around exploring prices for many items at many different trading markets.  Nobody not focused on trading can afford the time to "learn the markets" so a focused traders advantage increases.  A single city can pay huge dividends without needing to field an army to protect resources.  Learning the "lay of the [trade] land" so to speak will be valuable if the Illy pop remains above a critical mass.  I do not see how anyone can call themselves a "trader" and not see the profit potential in this.  All this whining about the "tax" ignores just how much opportunity this presents.



Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 15:04
What I find interesting is that none have questioned the need for the tax on this forum in an in-game perspective. Therefore I would like to claim the honour of being the first.
 
King Sigurd has on this day laid a tax on all those who reside within his territory. Many of those who wish either to toady up to him or who genuinely believe that he is a good king may claim that this tax is there so that his Kingdom may run with the splendour, ability and diligenece which it deserves. Well, you might say, that's doubtless. But the doubts will soon creep into your mind. Why now, you might ask? Why does King Sigurd need this now? Perhaps he is running out of money. Perhaps his wars are not going as well as we are encouraged to believe. Perhaps he has squandered it on feasts, or maybe he sent all of his gold attempting to save the financial ruin of his brother, the Duke of Keppen.
 
Our noble King continues the traditions of his forebears, regularly dispensing gifts to all who would seek to settle in the civilised parts of Illyria that truly count for something.
 
This is stated on the homepage of the council of Illyria. If I remember correctly, the gift of which he speaks is the new player package. It has been two years since I received such a thing- how regular. And also, I believe, it was comprised of some 500 of each resource, 3 thousand gold and a horse. The new 7.5% tax rate would cover that, and more, in one transaction.
 
One has to wonder whether the King is also attempting to fragment his subjects by banning the collective market and by allowing us only to trade with those nearby to us. Why would he do that, I wonder? Is it to prevent us from trading with those in the remote corners of the map, far away from the influence of King Sigurd n his tower at Centrum? And why are the Circle of Five so wary about talking to the Herald. Is there more to this story?
 
In this dark and confusing hour, the words of the Undying Flame may ring more true to all:
 
And who are they who line their pockets with your taxes - and send your sons and daughters to perish, unknown and unshriven in unmarked graves on foreign fields?

King Sigurd wishes to both enrich himself with this taxation, as well as to weaken his potential enemies by causing conflict amongst those who would be united against his tyranny. Mark my words, the Council of Illyria wish to enrich themselves at the cost of your hardworking citizens. Beware, people of Illyria. Tyranny is in the air.



Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 15:09
Originally posted by Nokigon Nokigon wrote:

(snip)

+100 and eleventy illypoints to Nokigon, by default


Posted By: Jalont
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 16:31
Originally posted by Quackers Quackers wrote:

Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

The steep tax is ridiculous.  It simply took away the job of trader from us.  Now there is no way to buy/sell on the market and make a profit like there was.  Plus changing your price and being flexible eliminates any profit margin that the tax may have left over.     The market is much more of a pain in the butt compared to what it was.  This update completely removes the so called 'trader' job which they intended to add.  Further if this tax is meant to move things to the hubs, the hub taxes are still to high.  1% for high standings may be acceptable but 5% is still to high.  

Unless these taxes go to some aspect of the game that we haven't seen yet it should be greatly reduced otherwise trade and traders will flounder not flourish.  


May I ask how the tax is to high. If I were to sell 10k cows for 900 gold in the faction hub, I might get taxed what 450,000 gold? I'd get 9,000,000 gold. That is a 8,550,000 gold profit. How is that to high? It is a gold sink, get used to it.

If you are getting money from the deal you are paying a tax. You do not like the tax then charge the person for the tax? I say this opens up trade in a whole new way.

Playing a trader is more than selling off excess goods.  You have to have a steady supply, and that involves constantly buying low and selling high.  Oftentimes, that includes buying those 1000 beer for 103 per unit, then selling another 1000 beer for 105 per unit.  There's also the game within the game, which is attempting to control the markets.  Market prices do not spring forth naturally.  They are manipulated by a select dedicated few.  This was a fun way minigame to play with small rivalries forming.  All of this is completely impossible now.

I understand the need to have a gold sink.  I really do, and I think that having a tax is a good thing, but when connected with all the other changes, it totally seems to eliminate the trader role.  I just came back to the game so I haven't been able to actually implement trade specialization, so perhaps I don't have enough data, but by studying what will be needed and making some assumptions, a player will have to have several cities dedicated to simply trading, while before two cities with mild specialization was enough.

Quote The new tax forces you to offer and accept trades that make sense, assuming the point is not to lose gold on a trade, preferably gaining gold. Unless you have billions to spare for funding your buying/selling habit, it will force you to act like a trader. In that way it is not a gold sink but quite the opposite as it forces the trader to create added value when making trades.

As I understand it, this system addresses the major gripe everyone had with the trade scoring system, the fact that it was an easy system to game and thus became meaningless:
* The trading scores are now based on what you sell = on the goods you provide to the market.
* Providing goods to the market, either through accepting or posting trade offers, is being taxed at 1-7.5%

The tax will not change people manipulating the trade score.  Large players that wish to artificially drive their score up will have no problem paying that extra 7.5 tax.  In some ways, I think it's even easier to artificially drive up the score.  Sell 1 piece of wood for 10 million gold, have someone in your alliance buy it, return the favor, and you now have two people with 10 million trade points.


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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 17:30
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

We just went from a one variable market (time) to a two variable market (time and region).  The opportunity for profit just increased orders of magnitude for traders.  A fragmented market is where traders thrive and a global market takes out a lot of their profit opportunity.  The traders world just got magnitudes more interesting.  You can shift your trader around exploring prices for many items at many different trading markets.  Nobody not focused on trading can afford the time to "learn the markets" so a focused traders advantage increases.  A single city can pay huge dividends without needing to field an army to protect resources.  Learning the "lay of the [trade] land" so to speak will be valuable if the Illy pop remains above a critical mass.  I do not see how anyone can call themselves a "trader" and not see the profit potential in this.  All this whining about the "tax" ignores just how much opportunity this presents.


Your comment ignores the point of how goods get to be on the market in the first place.  True, not everyone wants to be a trader.  Some people just want to sell their goods.  However, without people who just want to sell goods they produce or gather, traders would have nothing to do in the first place.  So it seems like potential traders might be very interested in the people "whining" about the tax if in fact those were the people who were making it possible to be a trader in the first place by creating and posting goods for sale.

Your comment also ignores points made about the relatively low margin in market-making trades.

I am not sure why it is important for you to dismiss others as whiners; it seems as though you could make your point about opportunities available for trade without denigrating others or resorting to what are essentially ad hominem arguments.


Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 17:47
Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Originally posted by Nokigon Nokigon wrote:

(snip)

+100 and eleventy illypoints to Nokigon, by default
I get lots of Illy points for preaching sedition? o.O
 


Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 18:51
Noki shows us the light. Rill, if you have any black market offers, please message me! Big smile


Posted By: Beecks
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2012 at 19:12
Originally posted by Nokigon Nokigon wrote:

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Originally posted by Nokigon Nokigon wrote:

(snip)

+100 and eleventy illypoints to Nokigon, by default
I get lots of Illy points for preaching sedition? o.O
 

This is the same King who, to celebrate the second year of his reign (also know as the 'cotton jubilee'), held a tournament that led to the death of 21 million of his subjects. Clearly this man is not interested in good governance.


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 03:27
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Your comment ignores the point of how goods get to be on the market in the first place.  True, not everyone wants to be a trader.  Some people just want to sell their goods.  However, without people who just want to sell goods they produce or gather, traders would have nothing to do in the first place.  So it seems like potential traders might be very interested in the people "whining" about the tax if in fact those were the people who were making it possible to be a trader in the first place by creating and posting goods for sale.

Sorry Unhappy

The complaints I read about the tax were from the players portraying themselves as traders.  I may have missed the people trying to trade with the hubs who were upset too.

We disagree.  Personally, I see a lot in this update that specifically benefits traders.  I see the volume an individual trader can handle skyrocketing.  I see restrictions to regional market information.  I see higher barriers to market participation and thus limited competition.  I see higher trade barriers overall (taxing system) but much lower barriers for trades with hub traders (pushing business to the traders).  I see increased security for trader goods.  Yes, I see a cost for traders who offer trades at prices above what the market will bear.  If your going to be a trader, don't misjudge the market with all the other advantages you'll have?  Overall, I judge the balance to be on the side of the traders by a wide margin.  As such, I see complaints as disingenuous.  I am sorry if that upsets anyone, it's not my goal.



Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 03:56
disingenuous:  Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

I'm not seeing it.  And I think it's unfortunate that you dismiss disagreement, whether based on facts or different perceptions of economic theory, without engaging them constructively. 


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 04:20
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

disingenuous:  Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

I'm not seeing it.  And I think it's unfortunate that you dismiss disagreement, whether based on facts or different perceptions of economic theory, without engaging them constructively. 

<shrug>  I knew that Wink

I believe there are constructive facts in my posts.  You're choosing to focus on my feelings which really account for one mild word in each post (so mild in the last case that you felt that I didn't even know the meaning of the word I used and in the case of the first post not the first time that words been used here).  Again, I'm sorry if my feelings upset you.  At no point have I attempted to single you out or targeted your opinion.  I will subsequently try to leave out all subjective opinions.

Maybe you can return more constructive input for the community.  What are the "market makers" in Illy doing?  I see open market spreads of 7-100%+ in every market.  If the market makers are providing liquidity, it certainly isn't at a low margin.  If they are operating at low margins, then they are providing no liquidity.  What don't I understand?  Why should the Illy community want market makers (and thus remove the tax).  What do the Illy market makers do for the community?



Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 05:01
I am not myself a market maker, but in the old trade system I frequently saw players who bought basic resources low and resold high, and I know of players who did similar things with advanced resources.  Those players ensure that when someone wants to buy (or sell) something, there is a supply available.  I don't have enough experience of the new markets to know how well it is working now.

The market spreads reflect transaction costs such as caravan travel times and now the penalty for repricing orders.  I would expect to see it decrease as people get more experience in the markets.  It will probably widen again when trade visibility is introduced.

I don't think you have been listening to what I have said.  I have not argued for removing the tax.  I think the tax is just fine. I have argued for removing the tax for orders that are not sold, essentially the tax on repricing orders.

I have not yet heard a logical reason that taxing orders that are canceled and repriced benefits the market.


Posted By: Roland Gunner
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 07:23
The sad part is the Devs seem to agree with you Salararius.  

I worked for over a year to help bring the spreads down and make the Illy market more efficient, and I enjoyed my time doing it.  I believe I was of some value to the market and the game as a whole.  That may just be a misplaced sense of self-importance, but if the detractors are complaining about 7% spreads on Advanced goods, then I have to feel it was a job well done.

Thanks to all the other traders out there, maybe we were of no service to anyone but ourselves, but I had fun working with and against you all..

R.



Posted By: Granek
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 10:30
Ebay, real world, charge fees just to list items. I don't see that it's such a big deal in Illyriad, except for the level of taxation. The trade hubs ain't charities ya know. ;)

I'd like to have a smaller fee to set up a trade sell order, and then a larger seller's fee if the order goes through. That way people have a degree of flexibility which a non-refundable 7% tax doesn't give.


Posted By: Granek
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 11:55
Procurement & selling: a trade office (at basic level research) will allow 20 orders at build level 20. If I build a second trade office, and level it to 20, it will give me 10 more orders (again, at basic level research).

Are the trade offices counted per town, or for the whole account?
If I have a level 20 trade office in town A, and a level 20 trade office in town B, will I get a total of 40 orders?

Also, if I knock down my merchant's guild, will my traders dessert me (the same way those ungrateful cotters do)?




Posted By: Granek
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 12:32
Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Third, for Faction Hub Orders, if you have a trader at the hub and providing you have the gold (or the goods) present in your inventory at the hub, you can choose to fulfill another players' order directly in the hub without involving any caravans at all.

Does this mean that you can see the buy & sell orders in a hub, no matter how far away that hub is, as long as you have a trader there?

If so, can the orders be seen by all of your towns, or just the one where the trader originates?



Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 15:45
I spent some time thinking about this so I'm going to post a quick "market maker" analysis.  Feel free to skip this post as I'll use no additional "offensive language" and try to stick solely to constructive information:

I'm going to use the standard definition of a market maker as someone holding both a buy and sell order in a specific market.  A market maker is offering a sufficient quantity of buy and sell orders to significantly satisfy the market volume.  For this example I'll use the cow market, I'll assume a buy price of 750 and sell price of 843 (pulled from the current market prices).  There are 133 buy/sell orders and a very rough WAG of shows an average volume of 1,000 units.  That's a total volume of 133,000 units.  I don't know how many of those trade every day, another WAG would be 175,000 cows traded per day (87 million cows traded to date over <2 years weighted slightly towards a higher current volume).

OK, so under the current system a trader makes 93 gold per trade.  Under the new system a trader would make between 51 gold (5% sales tax) and 85 gold (1% sales tax) per trade.  I know, less gold per trade, that sucks!

But, there is another factor in business and that is units moved/sold, etc...  If I sell 1,000 units at 93 gold profit is that better or worse than selling 2,000 units at 85 gold profit?  I think it's way better to make 170,000 gold than 93,000 gold and I think traders would agree.  I think they would really agree if they could make 170,000 gold with less effort, but is that possible?

So, does the new market allow for higher trade volume?

Under the old market you had to offer trades in specific lot sizes.  You had to pre-determine what size lot your customer wished to buy.  Were there 1,000 people looking to buy/sell 100 cows each?  Were there 10 people looking to buy/sell 3,000 cows each?  How you posted your buy/sell sell offers in the global market effected how much of the potential market you could reach.  Without omnipotent powers, you could not reach 100% of the buying and selling market with your buy/sell orders and others would post buy/sell orders and break your market.  In addition, you were caravan limited to how many specific buyers and sellers you could reach.  A player with 10 cites could have a maximum of 700 caravans offering a maximum of 350 3,000 cow buy orders and 350, 3,000 cow sell orders.  I realize that you can buy more than that but that scenario leads to a trade imbalance and that isn't good for a market maker and greatly complicates his business so I unilaterally ignore it Unhappy.  So at most a market trader will buy/sell 350x3,000=1,000,000 cows/day.  Which would net a profit of 93 million.  But, realistically, there are not 350 people buying/selling 3,000 cows per day.  Realistically, there are 350 people buying an average of 500 cows/day and you get a total volume of 175,000 and one trader with 10 cities can make that market.  But he/she can only make the market if the average turn around time for his caravans is <24 hours (unrealistic, but I leave this weak leg standing anyway).  Anything more than that and he/she isn't making the market and the model breaks.  This also assumes he/she can size his/her buy/sell posts to 100% fit the market.  I'd imagine a more accurate ratio of around 30%.  So, with the current market a market maker fills 30% of the total volume and makes a daily profit of 5 million gold assuming the caravans can get back in time.  That leaves a lot of room for others to break his hold on the market and that limits his power to control prices and maintain the attractiveness of his prices.

With the new model, a market maker with one city can operate in up to 20 regional markets (one trader per market).  Each potential customer city can see from 2 to 8 faction hubs (regional markets) based on marketplace level (higher market place levels can see more faction hubs).  There are about 150 regional markets so a trader with one city and 20 traders can fill buy/sell prices for roughly 50-90% of the available customer base.  Remember, each buy/sell order can now be partially filled so a market maker can offer to buy 175,000 cows at 843 gold/cow and fill 100% of the orders for a region.  Now, if the available customer base is roughly 175,000 cows then the profit in the new system would be between 4.5 million (175,000 total market size * 50% of market reached * 51 gold per cow) and 13.4 million (175,000 total market size * 90% of market reached * 85 gold per cow) gold.  A good trader would work in faction hubs that provide the most coverage at the best tax rates and be much closer to 13.4 than 4.5.  In the new system the customers are reached with 40 buy and 40 sell orders that the market maker rotates through as needed (old prices, new prices).  He doesn't need to type in 700 sell buy orders for each of his caravans and he will 100% saturate any given (isolated) regional market with his offers.  A market maker could focus on 2 or maybe even 4 of the now 100 or so markets that exist in Illy.  A market maker facing competition from another market maker would have to cancel and reset his sell orders.  That will cost some gold.  Maybe that is unfair, I don't agree but maybe it is.  But given what is offered to them don't they have enough to look forward to?

With the new system a player could plow all 4.5-13.4 million into troops/armor for his one city.  He doesn't need to make/build anything and he doesn't really need any pop because he doesn't need 700 caravans (the people accepting his buy/sell orders supply them all).  All he has to focus on is accumulating traders and knowing the regional markets and boosting his profits by moving goods between markets with his 70 caravans (or finding a way to hire others to move stuff for him/her).

I'll be the first to admit that any of my numbers could be off and it's possible that market makers are currently satisfying 50 or 75% of the market under the current system (11 million gold/day) and that the exponential price of traders will make it near impossible to satisfy more than 25% of the market with the new system (3 million gold/day).  The new system still allows for a stronger market maker position with less incentive for any individual to undercut prices.  If my goal is to buy cows and a market maker in the new system will sell them for 843 in any quantity I want and I can pick them up straight away from the nearest hub then...do I really want to post a buy order for cows at >750 (have to pay more than the market maker) and wait until that is filled (assuming I already have gold at the hub), then wait for the seller to send the cows to the hub while I send my empty caravans to the hub to pick up the cows and ship them back to me.  Is it worth it to save <13% when what I want is cows?

My goal in this post is to constructively compare the two systems.



Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 16:05
Originally posted by Granek Granek wrote:

Originally posted by GM Stormcrow GM Stormcrow wrote:

Third, for Faction Hub Orders, if you have a trader at the hub and providing you have the gold (or the goods) present in your inventory at the hub, you can choose to fulfill another players' order directly in the hub without involving any caravans at all.

Does this mean that you can see the buy & sell orders in a hub, no matter how far away that hub is, as long as you have a trader there?

If so, can the orders be seen by all of your towns, or just the one where the trader originates?


First question: Yes

Second question: No, just the town where the trader is from.

Luna


-------------
GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk



Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 17:59
Salarius, thanks for engaging constructively with the content.  I'm sure your post will be helpful to many players out there interested in trade at the new hubs.  In fact, perhaps you should post it or a version of it in the Strategies section so it can continue to benefit people.

One advantage that I didn't see explicitly addressed for a market maker is that rather than having to transport cows back and forth to a city with each trade, the player could just keep the cows at the hub -- essentially buying and selling the same cows instantly with no transaction costs based on travel time.  Huge advantage over the current system.  Although I do worry about cow futures and credit default swaps. Wink

With regard to the penalty for repricing:  How do you see that as affecting the spread you described in the long term?


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 19:21
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

With regard to the penalty for repricing:  How do you see that as affecting the spread you described in the long term?

OK, you're trying to be a market maker in the new system at a specific hub.  You set your prices (750 buy, 843 sell) and say you'll handle 100,000 units at those prices.  At the end of the first trading period (day, week, month) you've badly misjudged the market and sold 60,000 units and purchased 80,000 units.  You're accumulating cows at a 4:3 ratio and need to lower your prices.  During the next period you purchase 20,000 units and sell 15,000.  Your buy order is now filled.  Your sell order still has 25,000 units on it at 843.  You want to pay less for cows so you renew you're buy order at 740 (you could have canceled the old buy order and placed this one after the first period) and when your sell order runs out (or runs low) you renew that at 833.  These lower prices should reduce your stockpile of cows.  But, let's say you're impatient and cancel everything after the first period.  So you cancel a sell order for the remaining 40,000 cows at 843.  The cost to you at 3% is going to be 1,011,600 gold.  Wow, that's a lot, but wait, you've just made a 67.71 (843 * .97% - 750) gold margin on 60,000 cows so after paying the "unfair" portion of the tax you've still earned 3,051,000 gold even while being impatient and really missing the market.  Of course, you don't really have 3,051,000 gold because you purchased an extra 20,000 cows for 15,000,000 gold.  But at the lower prices (833 sell) those cows are worth 16,660,000 gold so in reality you have over 4 million gold in profit from your screw up.  But wait, the cows were selling at 843, just not as fast as you were buying them.  You could have kept the current sell order at 843 and increase your profit even further by waiting until your imbalance decreases to 10,000 or less cows.  Of course, you can only do so as long as you have the gold resources to make it through the imbalance created by miss pricing the market.

How much gold does this take?  Well, you need 100,000 cows and about 100 million gold for this scenario.  You'll "earn" about 5% per period from that investment.  That assumes an "average" hub tax of around 3% and an inability to set margin pricing to market demand.

Most people just want to buy or sell cows.  If your margin is reasonable, they aren't going to jump into the middle of your prices given the barriers to hub trading.  Widening your margin from 93 to 103 (740 buy, 843 sell) probably isn't going to kill business and will also slow the accumulation of cows while avoiding the dreaded unfair tax but at an increased risk of competition.

Obviously, if you are accumulating gold then your sell order will run out first and there is no issue with the tax.  Traders should keep this thought in mind when trying to set market maker prices.

With the old system, there is no way to do this sort of business.  It really doesn't work, too much micro management.  This new system is awesome for people trying to do exactly what you are saying this system will kill, with or without the tax.  Heck, if I had any interest in trading I would  be happy to pay the tax to have access to the trade hubs.  Let alone have a situation where there is an even higher tax on non-trade hub trades pushing business to me.

This is all on the faction hub level.  There will be trading between hubs between traders working in different markets.  I'm not sure how that market will be arranged because I don't know if there is a mechanism for transfer of goods from trader to trader within a hub.

I can't tell you how many times I've gone to buy a certain size lot of goods at a reasonable price and distance and not found anything on the market.  It's the only reason I ever set an order.  In my opinion, there are no players actually making markets out there right now.  If they are, they are doing so as silent players behind the scenes filling only "reasonable" orders.  That is one way to do business but I feel the new way is more transparent and thus better.  I feel this is true because it will allow us (the unwashed masses) to know what prices the market maker is offering and at what trading distance before we enter the market.



Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 19:45
Why I like the tax.

I thought about it, and I like the penalty on cancelled sales orders because I think the new system offers real opportunity to good market makers.  I can see an income stream for multi-market market makers in the 10s millions gold/day (for the right player).  That's plenty to support a massive army, 10x bigger than any 10 city player.  I imagine talented traders will build/move their capital cities in the middle of mountains in the most inhospitable places to make sieges as difficult as possible.  They will not worry about pop, so will not have to be concerned with things like sov or food.  They will have smaller "war cities" that are exodused to any location.  After 5 days these war cities will unleash their hordes on the local populations.  No trader city would support their own troops, but would rely on an influx of trading wealth to support their offensive armies.  As such, exodus would do no harm to a trader's city as the city is just a shell for troops and not an economic engine.  A talented trader could have an empire whose economic power is invulnerable to siege or blockade and whose military power is much more mobile and powerful.

I like that there are penalties on people who try this route but can't cut it.  Limited grapes, tax on filled or unfilled sell orders, these are pretty minimal hurdles compared to what's at the end of the rainbow.



Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 20:54
My questions are:

--Does this, in essence, create a "safe hoarding area" where folks can put all their gold and goods where they are totally safe from thieves?

--What impact does this have on the value of thieves and thieving? (and associated strategies)

--Can you now have players who, even though they have very few cities (they were all taken away from them, for example) still have vast power in the game through their untouchable wealth?

-- Does this make the currently very wealthy players harder to unseat (the simple fact that I ask this is proof that I am a man of the people and a simple, harmless, proletariat farmer)?  ;)

--Are the GMs planning on introducing the ability to thieve opponents offices in hubs at some point in the future? (industrial espionage?)

I don't have any judgement or commentary on the above, just thought the questions might be useful to ask...



Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 20:54
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

My questions are:

--Does this, in essence, create a "safe hoarding area" where folks can put all their gold and goods where they are totally safe from thieves and armies?

--What impact does this have on the value of thieves and thieving? How about conquest strategies (as they no longer can wipe out enemy wealth)? (and other associated strategies)

--Can you now have players who, even though they have very few cities (they were all taken away from them, for example) still have vast power in the game through their untouchable wealth?

-- Does this make the currently very wealthy players harder to unseat (the simple fact that I ask this is proof that I am a man of the people and a simple, harmless, proletariat farmer)?  ;)

--Are the GMs planning on introducing the ability to thieve opponents offices in hubs at some point in the future? (industrial espionage?)

I don't have any judgement or commentary on the above, just thought the questions might be useful to ask...



Posted By: Roland Gunner
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 21:28
Sal.. a few quick points..

1.  I had already exited the Cow market, so the prices you are looking at are already manipulated by the new system.  I had buy orders up at 833 the day the patch hit, and as high as 866 the week before.

2.  Most larger traders use the 3k lot as a whole Lot.  Odd lots (less than 3k) are basically ignored.  Most larger traders have billions of gold, dealing with 100's of an item is not worth the time.

3.  Although the Devs have talked about inflation, they have to be talking about the inflation of the Gold Supply on the server, not inflation of adv resource prices.  Prices have gone down for over a year.  As a trader that was fine, since I was always trying to keep my inventory relatively low.  If you were a buy and hold investor in Illy, you have lost gold value.

I think we are confusing two questions.

1.  Will the changes allow for traders to still prosper?

2.  Will the average player still have access to liquid markets were the buy and sell spread is around 10%?  If not, is that a bad thing for Illy? 

Although I'm in contact with most of the major traders in the game, I never tried to collude with them to manipulate prices.  Everyone I talked with was trying to help out their own alliance, but also had the good of the market at heart.  The Devs have stated that they hope this patch changes that. 

I guess we will see how it all turns out. 

R.

P.S...  I had the same question about the future of thieves in the game, looking forward to that question being answered...



Posted By: N. Chadgod
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 00:58
Originally posted by dunnoob dunnoob wrote:

When I look at clay, buy some clay, and then looking again at clay click "place buy order" the default wood makes no sense, it should be clay.

I know this is minor but I agree and would like to see this changed.


-------------
It's beyond fairytale, it's inconceivable!


Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 01:07
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

[QUOTE=Kumomoto]My questions are:...


-- Does this make the currently very wealthy players harder to unseat (the simple fact that I ask this is proof that I am a man of the people and a simple, harmless, proletariat farmer)?  ;)

 
LOL - Vintage Kumo...and if GM Luna hadn't have locked the thread you would have been rewarded with your rightful place in "Hall of Infamy" for that quote alone Wink


Posted By: nitin2011
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2012 at 19:02
How do i download "complete numerical data" where my trader is ?

PS: Ihave already done "Market Ledger" research and cant find this option.


Posted By: nitin2011
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2012 at 10:41
Looks like I cannot modify my orders at hub, I have completed "Efficient Trading" research ?


Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2012 at 11:24
Originally posted by nitin2011 nitin2011 wrote:

How do i download "complete numerical data" where my trader is ?

PS: Ihave already done "Market Ledger" research and cant find this option.
Click "data" on at the bottom of the graph then the red "download csv" button

-------------


Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2012 at 11:25
Originally posted by nitin2011 nitin2011 wrote:

Looks like I cannot modify my orders at hub, I have completed "Efficient Trading" research ?
You can modify sell orders (as they are the only ones you pay tax on), on the Sell offers page of the Faction hubs. This is where it shows only your offers.

-------------


Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2012 at 12:52
, i noticed in your chat that you were considering allowing alliances to restrict who can buy....bad idea....this is an old server and its already controlled by a few older players, too many naps and confederations, now trading of certain rare items is going to be controlled by them by  too, a player will have no choice but to join them and be controlled by all their silly rules of how to play, we already seeing players joining these over- powerful groups to have access to rare items, trade might be the only way independent players might be able to obtain them.....i hate lemmings


Posted By: nitin2011
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2012 at 12:24
A fibonacci series for trader .. this is not fair ... :(



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