H? are a large collection of individuals, with a range of different attitudes and behaviours. And when they act as a unified alliance they understandably do not tell everyone exactly what their objectives and plans are. Therefore, any attempt to simplify H? as being evil, a threat to Illy, bullies, etc., is ridiculous: one cannot generalise about a broad range of individuals, whose group objectives are not open for public scrutiny. Likewise, anyone who wants to pretend that H? are all the lovely defenders of Illy is in a similarly weak situation.

More broadly, this is also true for other Alliances - and I made this mistake myself: twice I've found myself concluding that particular alliances were all odious warmongers, because of the behaviours of one or two individuals (fortunately, the second time I caught myself, and thought "I've made this error before!" before any harm was done.)

I have said before, and I stick with this, that H? are best understood as the feudal masters of Illyria. This is a descriptive term, intended to indicate the basis of their power. It is not an excuse for knee-jerk liberal calls for the overthrow of the oppressor - H? are not oppressors, but the source of their power derives from a feudal basis.

Individuals within H? have behaved in ways that I regard as the ideal for players of Illy (like chivalrous knights, to continue the feudal analogy - real role models.) I have also witnessed behaviour and seen utterances from H? members which I regard as odious (akin to the cliché of thuggish feudal barons).

H? includes three people who easily make it onto my "top ten list of people I respect in Illryiad": Createure is a good candidate for my most-respected player, and I have a lot of time for SunStorm and Kumomoto. That does not make me blind to way that other members of H? have behaved. I have been mildly sickened by some of the things I've seen from H?'s players, but that doesn't lessen my praise for some of Createure's past actions, for example.

With regards "the war" (yawn! - sorry, but it's relevant) I don't believe that anyone really knows why the alliances that declared war on Valar (last year?) did so. I've heard propaganda, excuses, blindly repeated half-lies, honest proclamations and genuine insight all mixed up over this, but in reality sorting truth, lies and misunderstandings on this issue is beyond mortal power. My best guess suggests four very different motives from the different alliances involved. One motive (which I attribute to Curse and Champs) I regard as understandable, perhaps laudable, and I greatly respect the way that they prosecuted that war. Two other motives, I regard in fairly negative terms. The fourth motive was what I presume to be H?'s, and I am entirely ambivalent about it. If I occasionally grumble about the jackal pack who followed H? into that war,  I absolutely do not number H? amongst them. Having said that, I was in the middle of that farce, and I still understand it no better than anyone else, so it seems an unhelpful episode to form any really strong opinions over.

I'm aware that the above won't be good enough for some people. No doubt the H?-haters will conclude that, because this isn't a bile-filled call for revolution, I'm obviously sucking up to H? or am a paid apologist for them. And no doubt there will be people in H? who are outraged that I am not fawning all over them, and will take that as proof that I am insidiously attempting to undermine H? They're both wrong, but I can't stop people with extreme opinions sticking to them.

At best, the above might help people, perhaps new players who are just seeing fragments of extreme opinion from either "side", have a more balanced view of the situation, and understand that Illyriad is a hugely complex tangle which nobody has clear visibility over - and so for them it might work as a call for moderation.

At worst, next time someone gets on a H?-are-the-saviours/enemies-of-Illy bandwagon, hopefully I can just paste a link to this post, and save having to type another long answer to the same old hymns.

Create? you gotta be joking...no wait i see what your doing ...sow dissension within the ranks. make Kumo jealous...

Kudruk is very wise

LordOfTheSwamp wrote: With regards "the war" (yawn! - sorry, but it's relevant) ... I was in the middle of that farce, and I still understand it no better than anyone else, so it seems an unhelpful episode to form any really strong opinions over.

What? You went thru a whole war without understanding it?  Oh i get it! Your trying to make yourself look stupid so that they don't catch on that you understand what has been going on all  the time

Kudruk is profoundly wise

the most neutral ally in the game. no snuggle fest, no warmonger.

 the perfect ally, organized and wise. 

and i agree with the feudal mindset, that is EXACTLY how illy has, IMO, to be played. 

if there is an ally i look up to and respect the same as my own, it would be H?.

those people are clever, disciplined and loyal. 

...or both.  I am curious what is your price?  To utter the truth for example, and not a reich-spiel blathered by der kommissar.

Good point, valid not only for H?, and very true especially considering the high turn-over we have.

Not only individuals in an alliance are different, but they change continuously.

Not just H, but every alliance is a collection of individuals, with a range of different attitudes and behaviours. Many alliances and players might deny fair play to someone much smaller than them, when there is something to gain out of it, or when they are in a particularly hypocritical mood. 

When you make a logical argument, some people would say you are doing this because you have an "axe to grind" or that you are "biased" against them. Much like a person wearing coloured glasses seeing everything in one colour.

In last few days there were instances of H members alleging Kurdruk of making "pithy, condescending and dismissive" against H, grinding "valar axe" against H.. etc. It was after one of such allegations that he was forced to make this thread to clarify his stance. 

One can only hope such people will take off their Godwin's glasses and see things for what they really are.

I am happy you got it right.  

I mentioned it as a justification to his starting the thread.

Kumomoto wrote: if you seriously think I have "Godwin's Glasses", you are delusional. Whatever that means? What are Godwin's Glasses? Something that makes you think you see everything as Nazi? That doesn't make any sense. I have never seen or thought of Kurdruk as a Nazi.

No, it's the kind of glasses that makes one see everything as manifestations of Godwin's law.  That comment was particularly not directed at you. I seriously have no idea what glasses you wear.  

Wasn't it a comment very much like this that necessitated this post in the first place? An extremely combative and insulting response to a post that could be taken as mildly insulting.... or not at all depending on how you look at it? Even if he was out of line, I hardly think this is helpful.

I didnt know what that phrase means. I mistakenly thought you were commenting on Kurdruk, sorry for the poke. 

the crafting update has addled my brains 

 

Nevertheless I sense that there is a certain restlessness amongst the board of directors of Illyria's numero uno alliance. They haven't had a DEFCON ONE situation for many months and perhaps they think that well... things just ain't the same... I smell something brewing and it isn't coffee ;)

 

 

Edit: Sorry I had to correct my spelling...my glasses fell off

How many H? bashing threads are there now?  Enough is enough, already.

if you would take your time to read the tread and what kurduck posted you would not have said that. 

You are welcome.

 

We are not going to witter on about the Valar War are we? Thats last years apples. What we all really want to know, HM, is who are H? gonna bash next huh? C'mon tell us !

Lol, well said. =P

Isn't the new useless release enough time-wasting for us? 

So obviously I pause when I see many players simply sit down and continue the same tweaky negativity as we have heard regularly for more than a year.

We are barely one week into the largest release this game has seen in over a year, and sure enough, people are already returning to the miasmic complaining about H? and whatever else they can think of- just to pass the time as usual and chase off the self-induced boredom.

When do players ask themselves: "Am I making the most of my time?"

Seems like a lot of players are really just looking for a new hobby.

I think I will give up. 

No way I can find funny micromanaging tens or hundreds of gatherers (and by the way zero out of my cities are near rare item clusters, so even if I was willing to do it, it is not an option for me).

I am out of the gathering game.

Crafting? Probably not an option too. A few cities out of hundreds in an alliance could be enough to craft everything. Not my business.

Trading? Every smart player will happily bypass the markets...

Oh damn, can you see how annoyed I am? Writing on the forum instead of playing...

I think I will not use most of the new things. As I told, my gathering is marginal, and cannot go better, crafting probably is marginal to everyone (because new resource will not be abundant, so a few can craft everything. Waiting to see crafting time for items...) and being not able to deeply gather or craft, trading is only good to buy, but I am sure I can buy even better bypassing the trade hubs.

My vision of the new functions is not complete, so this can change, but until now, the more I learn, the less it looks interesting to me.

You can have another feeling, it's fine.

so damn silly. you DON'T have to do all to play you know? you can very well keep playing like you did b4 the release. there is no obligation to DO IT ALL. actually, if you think the new release is useless, JUST IGNORE IT.

IMO the devs got the boot-strapping of trade v2 slightly wrong, not enough sour grapes, a black market as ersatz-trade, that's not how it should be.  As soon as the real trade or some temporary black market work you can buy instead of gather.    

Change is hard for everyone, but I am distressed at the number of mails I've been getting from friends from across Illy saying good-bye.  Hopefully they will come back someday.

gosh!

i call BULL on this. 

or may have you been to the fortune teller and she has revealed the secrets of the future t you?

let's wait and see. you can always claim it kills trade IF that really happens. 

 

Admittedly those new 100 sq conditions on basic trade do seem a bit restrictive for new players at first sight. However with some notable exceptions it's my perception that newbes do not take up use of the basic market straight away for obvious city developmental reasons. Now of course the Major Release on Tv2 has brought the economic pathway of the game into sharp relief and everybody is clamouring because they think that they are in some way being excluded from it. They forget the other fine options that the game provides and focus on that from which they perceive - they are being deprived.

 

But the devs have said that the release is not yet complete and also that aspects that have been implemented are being monitored; such as grape distrbution and wine making... so I feel that it is far too early to start forming conclusions on the playabilty of Tv2

 

So , I say that it is clear that we have not yet seen the end of what is really a major development in that game. One that is clearly more that just a straightforward upgrade of the trading game because it is becoming apparent that it is linked to the reintroduction factions. I feel that these changes are targetted at the estabilshed alliances more so than new or mid term players and they do contain elements that shall lead to friction one way or the other.

 

Not so long ago we were all making threads complaining that the Devs were not making enough time to bring updates in the game. Well now they have and it's a biggie...Let's not jump to conclusions now

By the way, it seems like this thread is hopelessly off topic.  I hate to add to Luna's workload, but maybe the latter parts should be moved?  And my apologies for contributing to the problem -- I do think this is an important discussion to have somewhere, but it's very much off topic for the OP.

The latter part is way more interesting and constructive than the messages following the few initial.

Any one like Karoke . Come everybody lets hold hands and singalonga Harmless?

/me hums

try this one