31JUL12 - MAJOR RELEASE (Crafting)
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Category: News & Announcements
Forum Name: News & Announcements
Forum Description: Changes, patch release dates, server launch dates, downtime notifications etc.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3895
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 12:42
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Topic: 31JUL12 - MAJOR RELEASE (Crafting)
Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Subject: 31JUL12 - MAJOR RELEASE (Crafting)
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 16:40
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MAJOR RELEASE (2): CRAFTING Today, the Crafting component of the new release goes live.
The new resources have been live on the map for a couple of days. Now, this
chunk of the release lets you put them to good use, making equipment for your
armies - or indeed, to sell to others for their armies.
Come you masters of war....
In order to make troop equipment, you will need specific
special resources. But you will also need to build a specialist crafting
building.
There are seven new crafting buildings. Each corresponds to
an existing production building. In order to make specialist equipment, you
will need both buildings. As before, the production takes place in the
production building, but the speed of production is based on the number of
specialist crafting buildings that you have.
The pairings are:
Bowyer – Fletcher
Chain Armourer – Blacksmith
Horse Trainer – Paddock
Leather Armourer – Tanner
Plate Armourer – Forge
Spearsmith – Spearmaker
Swordsmith – Blacksmith
As a note, if you have more than one crafting building of the
same time, their bonuses to production speed are cumulative, but each is only
half as effective as the one before. So, for example, your second Swordsmith
has only half the effect of the first Swordsmith when figuring production
speed, and a third would have only one quarter the effect of the first.
Fools die for want of wisdom
Once you have built one or more crafting buildings, this will
unlock the initial Researches in the Crafting tab of the Research tree. You
cannot create a new piece of equipment without having first unlocked the
appropriate Research.
Each new Research under Crafting (except for Workshop
Specialisation) is a weapon, piece of armour, or horse that can be produced
in the relevant buildings.
The Research descriptions include the stats that the weapon
will have. These are percentage modifiers to the stats of any units who you
later give these to. Several of these stats might come into play at any time.
(Example: if there were a weapon giving +10% defending against swordsmen and
+5% when used in the Jungle and +2% when used by Orcs, then in the hands of an
Orc defending against attack by swordsmen on a Jungle square, the weapon would
give +17%%, whereas the same weapon used by an Elf to defend against swordsmen
in the Desert would give only +10%.)
The Research descriptions also show you what resources are
required to produce each weapon.
Players who have previously noticed screenshots showing War
Wolves in the horses category, will notice that there are no War Wolves in the
Research tree. From that, you may conclude if you wish that we hate Orc
players, and have taken away their War Wolves. Or, you may conclude that there
are Discoveries that are not in the Research Tree. We leave that up to you.
Wish I was special....
You will notice that production times are quite long from
your new crafting buildings. But there is a solution. Specialisation.
At the foot of the Crafting research page, is Workshop
Specialisation. This allows you to lock any one of your crafting buildings
to enable only a single type of equipment. (For example, you could lock your
Horse Trainer to train only Nimble Warhorses, or your Plate Armourer to make
only Obsidian Platemail.) This will make your production go three time faster.
So, without Workshop Specialisation you can tinker
around and make all sorts of different weapons, but slowly. But if you want to
equip a big army you will probably need to specialise in specific equipment for
those troops.
You can brush my hair, dress me everywhere
Once you have some equipment, you will need to give it to
your troops. You can equip and unequip soldiers, per Division, in the Armies
screen – the same place that you currently set up your Divisions and Armies.
In order to be able to equip any equipment, however, you will
require the Military Outfitter research. This is at the foot of the
Military tab on the Research Tree.
Once you have completed Military Outfitter, you will find
that:
So, the key is to look in the production screen of your
Barracks, and see what a unit needs to be recruited: they can use the same
armaments, defaulting to leather and spears; horses depend on unit type, as
above.
Most units can therefore be given a weapon, armour and a
horse.
Siege units are different – they can only have the Draught
Horse.
They were few in number, but the look in their eyes told
all
There are also four other new skills amongst the Military
Researches. These are the Elite units Researches. These work as follows:
So, that's crafting, and equipping crafted equipment.
Still to come, in the next release the magical resources will
find their way into your spell casting.
But just one last thing....
We haven't had that spirit here since 1969
This isn't related to Crafting, but we wanted to point it out
anyway.
The cost of recruiting traders is in Wine and Gold. The cost
in Wine rises as you have more Traders. This is worked out per player, not per
city. So, although in each settlement you are limited by your Merchant's Guild
as to how many Traders you can have in that town, over all you may find that a
much bigger constraint is your supply of Wine.
So, to avoid you having lots of under-utilised Merchant's
Guilds, we would strongly suggest that you do not seriously build up your
Merchant's Guilds until you have secured a good supply of Wine.
And with this, a new facet of Illyriad opens up for you to
tinker with!
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Replies:
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 16:47
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I appreciate your intent with the humorous Section titles in your update posts. However, the information is important and serves as a reference to the player base. Accurate and Descriptive section titles would make locating information much easier for us. Example: " Thank you for your consideration.
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Posted By: Faenix
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:03
| life in plastic .. it's fantastic! |
Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:04
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Ok I got Radiohead, Aqua and the Eagles. Thank you.
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Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:07
/me starts to panic, razing down whole parts of his cities without any plan  Wow, a whole new level of stuff to do... that might cause some brainwork now on what to build  But nontheless a HUGE and great update!  @TD: You somehow chose the one caption that I regarded as the one with most info on the chapter... (small armies, that have some advantage...
 ) |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:15
These resources are shown as icons. The exact resource cannot be identified, since one cannot "click" on the icons in a hovering description. If there is a web page where all the crafting details are given, it would be nice to have. |
GM ThunderCat wrote:Posted By: Davaac
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:25
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Thanks for the update! Question though, if you're willing to answer: what happens when an equipped unit dies? It would make the most sense to me if at least some of the equipment would be scavengable. Maybe this would just tip things too much in favor of defense (since the defending player could probably get to the battle site and scavenge faster), but it might also make people more willing to deploy their now-very-expensive army. On an unrelated note, can cotters be equipped with a riding horse? It doesn't sound like they could, but that might make things more interesting and allow for greater specialization.
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Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:36
And people said I was being negative when I said this update was going to fragment the trading community... |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:36
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Ummm ... speaking of Wine, I seem to be researching winemaking, but there's no reference to a winemaker in the release information. Will I actually be able to build a winery of some sort? I already have 20 grapes! only 4,660 to go!
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Posted By: The_Dragon
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:42
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I have a question. Suppose if I have 100K infantry soldiers and I want them to get +2% attack from razor edged sword, do i need to have 100K razor edged swords?
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Posted By: GM ThunderCat
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:43
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Posted By: jordigui
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 17:46
This is Manowar!!! :)
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 18:05
| Thanks GM TC. |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 18:13
| Equipping commanders only give them personal bonuses or they are also divisional ? |
Posted By: LordOfTheSwamp
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 18:18
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My brain is melting. My brain is melting trying to work out how you got Man o'War and Aqua on the same post without the universe ending My brain is further melting trying to work out what equipment is best for my cities, whether I'll try to equip all of my troops or just small Elite groups (leaving the big divisions to die as disposable canon fodder), etc., etc. My brain then melts some more when I realise that I can't even consider that question until I know what resources are available to me And then I realise that I don't have any spare building slots anyway, so I also now need to look at my town builds afresh. AAAahaaaaaahahhahahahahahhgggggggh! I'm going to have some fun playing around with potential loadouts, regardless of the resource issues! I suspect I'll be blogging about this when I finally understand (some of) it! Thank you! :-)
My guess is that if you are a big enough player to have 100k troops, and to think you an equip them all, you'll probably be going for 100k +30% Silversteel swords, not messing about with a mere +2% of anything.
I guess that depends on whether you get the reference or not. That one was spot on! ------------- "A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander. |
Posted By: The_Dragon
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 18:28
My point is is it worth to harvest 100K rare minerals and craft 100K enchanted swords only to get +2% attack bonus in your armies? |
Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 18:28
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Blockading? ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 18:31
I don't personally feel you are being negative, Brids. I do think you are wrong, though. The current market system, trading basic and T2 items is staying the same, from what I understand. These updates are expanding beyond the simple market system. How would having an entirely seperate and new trading system limit the trading community? ------------- |
Posted By: LordOfTheSwamp
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 19:02
Personally? My Spearmakers stand idle most of the time anyway, so if I happened to have a load of the ingredient around I might think "oh why not..." and make a few. But absolutely NO way would I set out to make 100,000 of the things - there are much, much better weapons here. I guess that's why the Razor Edge weapons are the first that you get in each research ladder. Maybe make a few while you're researching further up the ladder, but then forget them as soon as you get what you really want. ------------- "A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander. |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 19:20
Perhaps the resources required for 100,000 of whatever really good weapon there is, are so rare or time consuming to get, it wouldn't be achievable to make all your troops use it.
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 19:22
The current market for basics and t2 items supposedly is going to have a limitation to 100 squares visibility at some point, it's just not implemented yet. Although I do really hope they change their minds about this, I think that having a "universal" market for at least the commodities (four basics and food) will make the game a lot more fun to play than fragmenting the market. That's just me though.
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Posted By: The_Dragon
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 19:38
That's the point. If we unable to equip all of our soldiers with enchanted swords because those minerals are too rare, then how those rare minerals change the result of a battle or even the result of a war? Suppose if 2 alliance have a war. Alliance A able to create 5K silversteel swords, since silversteel is very rare, 5K silversteel swords is already a lot. If both alliances have 1 million soldiers, will these 5K silversteel swords change the result of war? I guess not. |
Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 19:59
I was rather disappointed that the visibility limitations were not introduced immediately, and I'm even more disappointed that all this new crafting cruft was released before the brilliant new trade features were debugged and somewhat nearer to ready.  |
Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 20:02
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Production rates on these weapons are supposed to be very low. If that 3x boost you get from specialization is necessary to build decent numbers then you'll either need to secure a full stockpile of resources before specialization or ensure you have a supply before specializing. Building "some of this" and "some of that" might not get you any reasonable quantities at the end of the day. I'll be curious to see what new resources players are willing to sell on the new trade system. |
Posted By: LordOfTheSwamp
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 20:06
Then (a) you're talking about a very specific circumstance, and (b) the answer is "we don't know". (a) I'd guess that most wars take place between alliances with way less that 1 million troops - TRO/TLR for example - and in many wars (e.g. leaders' ego-wars where the rank and file don't feel inclined to risk their armies) only a fraction of an alliance's troops will see combat anyway. So, a truly huge war is pretty rare situation. (b) We have no idea how common the resources are. In a year's time, when people have worked out where the resources are and how to make weapons as quickly as possible etc., etc., etc., then will a "million soldier" alliance have 5k weapons in store? or 50k? or half a million? or 5 million? We don't know. Anyway... What's striking me is how context-dependent these weapons are. Personally, after browsing the researches, I have two different spears at the top of my shopping list. Of one, I would like 5 spears. (In total, 5. Not 50, not 500... just 5). Of the other, I could use about 50,000. How I would use them has a huge impact - as does where I am based, what my city locations are, and what sort of battles I expect to fight. A different player would have a completely different shopping list. I rather like that :-) ------------- "A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander. |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 20:23
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Many crafting researches seems to need as much as 6 buildings. Arctic Bow for example. You need to research "arctic spear" first followed by "bone handled sword" followed by "arctic bow" research. To research "arctic spear", you need a spearmaker and a spearsmith. To research "bone handled sword", you need a blacksmith and a swordsmith.
To research "arctic bow", you need a fletcher and a bowyer.
That is in total 6 buildings just to unlock the arctic bow, not counting any building plots spent on gathering of the crafting components. It gives +6% bonus in the arctic, -4% in penalty jungles and deserts. I don't say that the bonuses are too small, but 6 building plots (and in most cases, additional building plots for gathering) seem too much of a sacrifice. |
Posted By: Elf Dragon
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 20:25
| what about the war wolves??!! |
Posted By: surferdude
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 20:30
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Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 20:40
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Also.. If you want to craft "Desert Platemail" and "Desert Bow" in the same city, you are in a tight spot.. You need 11 buildings to conduct both the research (tannery, leather armourer, blacksmith, chain armourer, forge, plate armourer, spearmaker, spearsmith, sword smith, fletcher, bowyer). |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 20:44
You would certainly be not specializing in selling. You wouldn't find a market for arctic bows outside the arctic circle.  |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 21:30
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I still wait to have an answer to my question. Equipping the commander do add bonus to commander's stats or to divisional units too ??? Also I have to add another question: Why you hate elves ? Especially elves in jungle like me ? Bow have weird bonuses and there is NOTHING comparable with Silversteel weapons. NOTHING. So my archer commanders will get at most 6% attack bonus while most of the others can use a 30% bonus weapon ?? I like the patch but the item balance really make me wonder if I should put any more effort in the game....
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Posted By: Badmuts
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 22:13
Suppose you have two slots free and none of these buildings, then: 1) build level 1 spearmaker at 1st slot and research spearsmith, demolish spearmaker 2) build level 1 blacksmith, research swordsmith, demolish blacksmith 3) build fletcher and research bowyer, level fletcher to 20 4) build level 1 spearsmith and 2nd slot, research arctic spear, demolish spearsmith 5) build level 1 swordsmith, research bone handled sword, demolish swordsmith 6) build bowyer, research artic bow and level bowyer to 20 It's rather tedious but still is doable with the two slots that will be occupied by the fletcher and bowyer. It seems a good strategy to just unlock the crafting buildings first by finishing the city research page, then one slot that is used for a cottage can be used for building and demolishing to travel the research tree.
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Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 22:21
It's hard to balance a large number of items. Hopefully they'll be willing to balance things as needed.
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Posted By: Thurien
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 22:42
| They're just grouped in like categories, you don't need the first in a "line" to make the 2nd in crafting, UNLESS you see an actual line or arrow. I don't see many of those in the Crafting page. |
Posted By: Garth
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 22:50
Looks like they have since inserted arrows :)) Unless I'm missing something, looks like it *will* be necessary to at least hit each of the buildings in turn. |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 22:53
silversteel i not meant for us anyways. elves have lived an overpowered status till now. no more. ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: LordOfTheSwamp
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 04:18
Elven Trueshots can get, if I have read this right, a +35% bonus to their attack, which becomes +70% in small units? Composite Bow = +15% attack Vanguard's Armour (leather version) = +20% attack The infantry horse has no benefit Total = 35% Elite units doubles this if used in small groups Small unit total = 70% And, that particular combination only requires 2 crafting buildings to be researched and built - none of these mixed-buildings-required-research-ladder weapons there. On reflection, I don't even think that that's the *best* loadout for your Trueshots - I think there are better options, depending on your situation. You're right, tho, it does look like in the jungle Elves don't buff quite so well, nor so easily. You'll probably be looking at +32% to attack (or +64% in small groups), and for that you'll need to plan your targets more carefully. You can bemoan that while you enjoy all the extra food squares that jungle biome seems to have, or some of the huge concentrations of Herbs I've noticed down there. What did you want, a single "Bow of Instant Elven Supremacy"? ;-) ------------- "A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander. |
Posted By: Silverlake
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 05:03
Pithy much... must all your comments directed at H members be pithy, condescending, and dismissive? It really is getting old.
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/57338" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: LordOfTheSwamp
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 05:55
Whoa! Where did that come from?! Until you wrote that it hadn't occurred to me to wonder what alliance the original poster was in. And as a misrepresentation of my attitude to H?, that's pretty extreme. This is getting way off topic Edit: I've started a http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/topic3901_post50326.html#50326" rel="nofollow - new thread to address this
------------- "A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander. |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 06:57
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I thought Kurdruk was poking fun at elves ... color me confused. Going to other thread now.
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Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 07:48
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I'm quite sure me and SC have same taste in music lol -------------  |
Posted By: surferdude
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 12:45
I know jungle is massive, but not much about the swamp |
Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 14:12
| will sov of a certain type affect the crafting as well? ie stablehand help out with the new horses type crafting? |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 15:40
Hi :-) +35% has to be compared with +38% for infantry (two silversteel pieces). So, comparable. But while the two elfish pieces have also severe movement penalty stacked with defense penalty too, the silversteel pieces don't have movement impairment and have an huge defense bonus too. In jungle or any other biome, the bow came with -16% (attack? all?) which make it unusable, so we have to settle down for a 6% bow, losing attack and keeping all the penalties... So I appreciate your post because you did some math, but overall I think something is wrong with elf items... You can play with the item info here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AumwLJzwY-1pdDRZZUx3Z2pEeHlzTENZb1pTbWVjcGc#gid=22" rel="nofollow - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AumwLJzwY-1pdDRZZUx3Z2pEeHlzTENZb1pTbWVjcGc#gid=22
EDIT Actually I think infantry dwarf are golden, they CAN get a really nice equipment (hard to get, but still possible), and they also get a good bonus in small armies (just behind spears, and way ahead all the others).
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Posted By: Rohk
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 15:45
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Since the Orc Death Dealer needs both spears and bows to build can we equip them with both a spear and a bow or do we have to pick one or is it set that they can equip only one type?
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/53810" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 15:47
I am 99% positive you have to chose only one. Any unit or commander can equip ONE weapon slot, ONE horse and ONE armor.
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Posted By: Rohk
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 15:51
The trick then I suppose is which type of weapon benefits it the most. Same with the Clan Guardsman and armour. Since they are built with a leather armour and chainmail, can I just pick any leather or chainmail that I want for them (i.e. whichever has the better bonuses)?
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/53810" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 16:04
| I must say that i have not checked in details all the numbers but could it be that devs actualy predicted situations of deff units (bows) being stacked in def formations with huge amount of divisions/Elite units bonuses?Good def player know how to form strong deff formations and if both bows and for exmpl swords get same bonuses then stacked armies would be imposible to defeat.So lets say that attacking army formed of 5 divisions of infantry have larger bonus from weapons then defending archer army.BUt it is easy to imagine that defending army would be made from more then 5 divisions, thus having greater battle bonuses?...Or maybe this is one of those situations where it is best to read first and then comment. |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 16:07
This is what they said, so yes.
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Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 16:16
I will crunch the numbers for defense too, tonight, to have a better vision. But I wonder, are we really wanting LESS defense? And why only for ranged? We should have learned through the last tourney how overpowered is attack vs defense. It's an hard balance and cannot be perfect. Looking the items (check the link I posted above) I can see cavalry is getting less "attack" love, sword is getting a load, spear so and so and bows are overkilled. While I understand the cavalry nerf, and could agree on even more spear buff, I cannot understand why sword are buffed and bows penalized... Anyway, everyone can look the numbers and decide.
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Posted By: Sister Nikki
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 16:22
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ok the one friendly Illyriad game has lost its simplicity. Also with every big well planned release the hunting season for bugs is opened. simple a personal opinion. |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 16:28
I have to say this release is huge and overall high quality code. /me bows Devs
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Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 22:26
So much for the balance between races, that went out the window in March and this update just makes it worse. I fail to see why Elven are yet again being penalized and especially in the jungle. Would one of the Devs like to comment on the balance of the races we were promised early in the game? Sorry but I'm extremely disappointed in the weapons for Elves especially for TrueShots. Maybe it's time to stop investing in this game. ------------- CEO, Harmless? Founder of Toothless? "Truth never dies." -HonoredMule |
Posted By: surferdude
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 22:41
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Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 22:43
I say they did it right. They made it right by allowing elves to do great in forest. Jungle is just going to far. You can easily shoot a bow in the forest but I'd like to see you shoot a bow in a jungle. ------------- Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody. |
Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 22:53
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Well if that is the case, then explain the changes in March to T2 Cavs and change in terrain effects. Anyone in the tourney can vouch for the changes made in the middle of the tourney and the results that ensued. Races are not balanced, haven't been since March. Carry on, won't post again.... ------------- CEO, Harmless? Founder of Toothless? "Truth never dies." -HonoredMule |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 23:06
Bah, you pretend reality, talking about a game, and elves? Elves.... And by the way the the penalty to those bows applies also on desert and arctic. Both on offense and defense... I have to redo all the maths, may be I lost an year building Trueshots cities.... |
Posted By: Prometheuz
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 23:18
I sympathise. Simple is always the straightforward way. For me though the Major Releases always bring an exciting change to the game and open up new pathways for players to explore. Illyria is a developing game still. I think that is why so many of the community have remained entranced by it and remained for so long. But always the "pathways" concept has remained and players are free to follow an increasing number of roles as individuals, in alliances or even in cross cultural groups. A player still can follow the simple friendly networking way. They are even free to seek to convince others of its value but in a developing game nothing lasts forever...it becomes changed. |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 23:58
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o wow, now that elven are not overpowered, you ask for balance? you sissy. ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 23:59
Hm? Now why would anyone make trueshot only cities? .... Well it's simple, it's way overpowered unit for a very low cost. The cost should be at least 2 leather armors like any other t2 ranged unit and some of the stats should be lowered... The other overpowered unit in the game is knight, but it's production costs are normal, so there is at least some balance. Another reason for this huge elf and human bonus is time to train units in aspect to their experience points. While you can train t2 archers and t2 cavalry at the same speed per experience point, you can't train other two specialist units so (for dwarfs t2 infantry and for orcs t2 spear). While this training times per exp points will not be changed there can be no balance between races. I'm afraid orcs are most penalized here. Crafting will not change this fact. In fact it will make it even worse, because we orcs have to produce more numerous armies of low quality troops to make it comparable to much smaller amount of human, dwarf and elf units. That means that large number of units will also need larger amount of weapons and armors. Trueshot (t2 elven archer) and clan guardsmen (t2 orcish spearmen) both need 1 leather to produce, but 1 crafted armor on trueshot is worth way more then 1 crafted armor on clan guardsmen, because all the basic statistics for trueshot are much better not to mention training time per exp point. I'm afraid that if you put a bit higher % bonus on bad basic stats this still makes it overall much more bad stats for equipped unit. So I have a question for the devs. Why have you made bad situation for orcs even worse with this release? Equipping low upkeep units is just waste of weapons and armors. For example if I give the same spear that has 10% attack bonus to knight, it will give 6.5 attack bonus per weapon or 13 in elite division. If I give the same weapon to kobold it will only give 0.9 attack bonus or 1.8 in elite division. Of course this is the same weapon and production times for it are the same? The same is true for armors.... Even 4 kobolds are not comparable with 1 knight except their upkeep. It is much more time consuming to make 4 kobolds then 1 knight and even before this update 1 knight was way better in every statistic then 4 kobolds. Shouldn't spearmen that use weapon especially made for them have the same bonus as the knights which historically didn't even use spears? Well 8% orcs on the server... I wonder if this % will be even smaller after this release? I'm certainly thinking of leaving like 2 other orcs from my alliance have done already... Another aspect of this crafting business. It penalizes big players and rewards small players. Big players with 200K+ army will never be able to equip big percentage of the army, but small player might equip all of it. I have no objections regarding this aspect of crafting.
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:10
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i disagree bonaparta. even if orcs have weakest elite unit, all their other units (read fists, wolfriders and deathdealers) are quite badass. orcs have the greatest potential. ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:20
Hm % bonus on weak units is just bad! Look at the big picture - Production cost and time per 1 attack or 1 defense point per weapon/armor and you will see orcs are again most penalized of all the races and where are this wolfriders you speak of? Even if you make one spear 100% more effective in hands of spearmen unit it would still be worse then in hands of knight....
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:38
There are more + spear troop production on the map then anything else. There are vast areas with some ok food that have nothing but + spear troop production around it. While I'm not suggestion claiming alot of that you could easily get over 200% spear troop production ------------- Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody. |
Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:40
I agree, same reason I pushed to remove the percentage bonus to resource production (specifically food) from sovereignty buildings ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 00:44
You don't need +unit production squares to easily get over 200% bonus production. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 01:17
They weren't balanced back in march either. It was no secret that elves had and in fact, still do have some of the best units in the game. Trueshots are hands down the best defensive units and their cavs and second only two humans. Giving them lesser equipment is hardly unbalancing things, if anything, it's re-balancing it. Besides, we still have no idea how much time and effort is needed in order to properly equip units. I don't think it will be all the likely to find people decking out their armies in the best possible gear. I think the update may very well balance out the units. |
Posted By: Daufer
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 01:35
Given that cavalry on the attack is grossly overpowered in comparison to the other troop types, cavalry being the human specialty, and that archers are by far the most effective defensive troops, archers being the elven specialty, I would say that numbers were unbalanced well before March. And the people who crunch the numbers before choosing a race or building a barracks have certainly benefitted from the imbalance.
If a slightly reduced maximum attack bonus relative to other troop types is punitive to elves I really must ask how often you were using your archers to attack? Ranged units are fundamentally defensive, it just so happens that elves enjoy a substantial bonus that makes their archers only slightly less effective on the attack than their infantry. In fact, elves are the only race I can think of that could build a massive army of a single unit type and have both awesome defensive numbers and very respectable attack. This is just encouragement to diversify... like everyone else has to. Or you could just team up a bunch of elves with a bunch of humans and let the humans steamroll everything with their overpowered cavalry while you defend siege camps with your overpowered ranged units. I'm surprised no one else has thought of that by now.
[ And before someone jumps in here, I know there are a lot of H? posters in this thread. I'm not bashing you guys. I honestly couldn't care less what alliance whomsoever is in. I'm just bored with the whining that the devs have taken away the big shiny red "I WIN" button and that, gods forbid, people are going to have to tweak their tactics. You would think people who pride themselves as gamers would accept that as a challenge and an opportunity to explore new content rather than wanting to quit because they might now have to build two or three kinds of units and pick the best one for the situation at hand]
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Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 11:16
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well they didn't have Frost Giants as a race ok! and honestly all we need is 2 more races to be introduced and it would be balanced imo, and im not going to go into why we need 2 at the mo, I'm to busy burning my own towns  and Bona is so on about everything! its not even funny....every Orc picked Orc, because they knew it was gonna be harder imo ------------- |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 13:59
you kinda missed my point. compare the stats or orcs to all other units of the other races. orcs easily have the most balanced out military ever. no unit really sucks. all an option to make. none is "to weak" to be built. just look at the ridiculous and silly dwarven cavalry, the horrible infantry of human and elven, and the suckish archers of humans .. orc units are all above those. orc archers can be equipped with spears, and we got some cool spears. also i think that elven cavalry is superior to wolf riders just cause of their speed, not for their stats
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Posted By: Yhina
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 15:15
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The problem comes that average troops dont work very well with : sov training bonuses and tier 2 buildings.
a) a single unit type army, trains faster, and has lower upkeep. Plus its easier to arrange towns to produce gear for them.
b) a mixed army type, doesnt have any bonuses, has to split their posible sov training bonuses, benefits less from t2 buildings, requires more buildings to suply diferent type of gear, etc etc
As Bona said, the training times , being equal for all races, is where the problem lies ... if orcs are to stand a chance attacking, with average stated troops, they should at least have faster training ... thus quantity to overcome the lack of quality.
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Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 15:33
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The new buildings make building space more valuable. That means less saddles or other trade offs for players building adv resource intensive T2 cav. T2 cav build combat power quickly, but it takes a lot of production power behind that. I realize big players have gigundus stockpiles of adv resources but over time the shortage of city plots should reduce these stockpiles and make T2 cav somewhat (relatively speaking) slower to build. I don't know that this will "fix" the problem but it might address the advantage T2 cav has over T2 sword. T2 bows, OTHO, are a different matter. T2 bows take no more resources than T2 spear but can be produced way more quickly (defensive power/time) for defending. That's something the devs should address specifically for all races. |
Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 15:36
it should be like that... isn't quantity over quality a maxim for orc hoards in general? |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 16:45
i meant in different specialized towns of course... and their unit don't lack quality at all. ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: dmar
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 16:56
| Hm, I harvested 2 herbs out of a patch with a total of 6 and next time I sent my herbalists the patch had disappeared... And since I was occupying it there's no chance someone else harvested it. Now that's low tolerance to overharvesting, IMO. |
Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 17:26
Yep, my point exactly. You summed it up very well Yhina. We don't have quality and we don't have quantity. Crafting system rewards quality units... So basically we don't have anything... ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 17:30
What quantity? We produce units at the same speed as every other race, just that our specialist units produce way more slowly compared to other races, exactly 33% more slowly per exp point... ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 17:47
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you are dismissing your infantry, your cavalry and your archers as no quality units. which is ridiculous. ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 18:26
Hm let's see now You say human infantry is bad and orcish is kinda better:
I didn't list dwarven advanced infantry, because it is clearly better then all these 3. I think that orchish Fist is the worst of those 3. Having 1 better attack then Human infantry, but all other statistics worse. I think that wardancer is the best of those 3. 8 speed compared to 5 speed is huge advantage... Then you said bad human archers? Human t2 archers are 2nd best behind Trueshots. 9 speed is even better then trueshots have... Well orcish advanced archers don't have speed and even worse defending stats then human or dwarven and defensive stats are really most important for archers... I would say death dealer is the worst advanced archer of them all.
You claim that wolfriders are good somehow, comparable to swiftsteeds.... Let's see
Better attack, speed and carrying capacity. And the only reason why anyone would train large quantities of t1 cavalry is their speed and perhaps carrying capacity, if someone is raiding basic resources from inactives. Well dwarven cavalry is about the same as orcish, just one 1 move speed slower, but dwarves have stelwarts for attacking power, orcs have nothing. Well at least you could create consistent diverse military with orcish units, because every unit is bad with exception to spears. But spears are not comparable to other unit types because long training time... ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: LTH
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 18:46
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Playing many different games allows me the vision to know what is good or bad for the game. I am really good at giving suggestions for this game that will make it better. I believe I was one of the few players that came up with the tournament idea. I also came up with the siege statistic idea. After playing another game like this and others games like Darkfall, I realized the game needed resources to fight for to make players more willing to fight in this game. Just wondering when Illyriad will put me on for salary. But yeah the last trade v2 patch has made the game fun for me again. Good job Illyriad game team!
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Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 23:53
I have trueshot's cities, marshall's cities, wardancer's cities. And you know why I work this way Bonaparta, don't you ? I am still working with numbers, will publish my work when finished, from what I can see now, yes, Trueshots (and even more Sentinels) are very cheap to build, but this advantage is not going to change a war (I will explain why when I am ready to publish my results). About orcs... The more I look the numbers, the less I want to be an orc... But, again, I want to be able to publish something complete and let everyone decide by him/herself .... What I am sure even now is: trying to balance things using the new crafting system is silly. The more I think about it, the more I get angry. Adding more variable to an already complex system and trying to balance things using 200 variables where we had 20 is a good way to lose control. |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 00:10
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Let anyone free to build any kind of unit of any race. Problem solved.
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Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 00:50
No, problem not solved. Then everyone will just build trueshots and knights and there will be absolutely no unit diversity.
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Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 00:54
How about just letting anyone pick whatever race they want...oh 
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Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 06:47
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Orcs done right are great at cav def, which is the best attack unit in game, so we have that i guess...but also restricts our gameplay... and wolfriders are greatest cav def commander.
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Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 14:08
No, I would build trueshots and marshalls. I like marshalls more, for the 10% less attack than knights, they have 41% more speed. For the penalty of 11% less speed, trueshots have 33% more attack than longbowman, 10-25% more defense than longbowman and costs one leather armour less than longbowman. And longbowman is probably the second best archer unit in the game. If given a chance anytime, I'd instantly switch to an elf.
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Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 14:27
Marshal is an option for t2 cavalry. I personally still like the knight better, because marshal is so dependent on chain armor, but then again trueshots don't need chain so you have extra in other cities. You would switch to an elf? I bet it is not because they have the best units in the game, but because developers felt that those poor elves deserve another bonus namely 5% magic boost....
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 14:50
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you sure talk like cavalry is everything. ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 14:53
No Kilotov, I realize that dwarven stelwarts are very good and I obviously praised trueshots... ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/95216" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 15:40
You can buy chainmail from market. The price differential between chainmail and platemail is not too much. (currently it is 210 gold in the market) The limiting factor for cavalry is saddles. Elves have a clear advantage there, because sentinels doesn't need leather armour at all. Trueshots need only one. Hence they have more spare cows.
I dont think much about stalwarts, not to mention other infantry. Defenders mostly comprise of archers, who has high defence against infantry, but low defense against cavalry. Stalwart has 14 attack per gold upkeep, knight has 16 attack per gold upkeep. Longbowman has 32 defense against infantry, 20 against cavalry. Knights will be nearly double as effective against a stack of archers than stalwarts for the same upkeep worth of units. Even spears have fairly good defence against infantry (kobolds have 12 defense against infantry and 13 defense against cavalry - not much of a difference) |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 21:22
Have to quote myself. Let everyone build any units.
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Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 21:32
lol i sure feel sorry for this kilotov dude now. hahaha ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: Silent/Steadfast
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 00:42
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T2 spearmen are better than t2 bows defensively. They generally have about 1.5 more defense vs cavalry than bows do, which is all that really matters (except in forests, where inf attacks, but spears get a bonus while bows are penalized there). Also, they are slightly cheaper in resources and faster to make. I haven't looked in detail at the new crafting stats, but I'm sure that in terms of def vs cav spears will still be better than bows even when the bows get decked out in special gear. Far from overpowered, trueshots are merely good at swaggering around on the stats page and showing off figures that don't apply to most defensive combat. There is something, however, to be said about bowmen attacking. A trueshot works admirably when storming a mountain guarded by spearmen, doing as well if not better than a knight. ------------- "Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM) "SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM) |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 02:14
Why not just build T2 cav for everything then? T2 spear and cav have the same cav defense for Dwarves, so if cav defense is all that really matters, wouldn't have nothing but cavs be best? Giving you the same cav defense and far more attack and speed.
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Posted By: Silent/Steadfast
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 08:19
There are several reasons, the main one being that spearmen get a bonus in defense in more types of terrain. Also, spearmen train a lot faster than cav, and their resource cost is a lot less. ------------- "Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM) "SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM) |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2012 at 02:08
| Question on the Crafting Research Tree - are all of those dependencies across different types of armor/weapons intentional? For example, (other than the first row of chainmail research), all of the chainmail research depends on leather armor research. Sames with swords/spears, etc. So if I want to specialize in chainmail, I first have to specialize in leather armor? |
Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2012 at 03:11
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you know...instead of us arguing over this, i say we ask the devs...they should know the answer...and be able to explain it better than any of us as to why things are the way they are... ------------- |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2012 at 03:52
| Yes, that's who my question was intended for...I have no preference on how it "should" work, I just want to double-check that this is the way it was meant to be and that this is the way it is going to remain so I can adjust accordingly. |
Posted By: Silent/Steadfast
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2012 at 00:42
Researching something has no effect other than to unlock something new in your city. In other words, you don't have to craft leather armor after you research it. ------------- "Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM) "SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM) |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2012 at 01:49
| True, but I must have the building built in order to do the leather armor research, and since it doesn't all come off the same node on the tree, I can't just research the first item then swap out buildings. I have to have the leather armorer building around the whole time that I'm researching the various leather techs (in order to unlock all of the Chainmail techs)...unless I only do the ones i REALLY want right now, then risk having to swap buildings again later on if I decide I want to research a different line (leather + chainmail) of armor. Hopefully that made sense... |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2012 at 01:55
| I guess the main point is that if I want to research ALL chainmail techs, I first have to research ALL leather armor techs (and have the leather armorer building around the entire time that I'm researching). Previously there were no dependencies between leather/chainmail, so that's why I ask if that was what was intended. |