Æsir's Crusade vs. TLR
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3854
Printed Date: 16 Apr 2022 at 21:31
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Æsir's Crusade vs. TLR
Posted By: LostEros
Subject: Æsir's Crusade vs. TLR
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 14:55
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When I first began playing in Illy, I recall all of the noble talk about how the strong will protect players from bullies in the game. Now I see an instance of unprovoked attacks (war) on the admittedly rough-around-the-edges TLR by a significantly larger group, basically because it would seem that Aesir doesn't approve of the leader, Eternal Fire. I am curious as to people's thinking about this case of "might makes right." This sets a dangerous precedent for the future of Illyriad if everyone simply turns away and remains silent while a fringe group gets bullied and likely destroyed because a larger group of players have decided they have the moral superiority to decide which alliances may exist in their world. ***mod edit to remove private messages***
------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/126102" rel="nofollow"> 
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Replies:
Posted By: invictusa
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 14:59
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You aren't alone. I can not speak for my alliance, but I do not feel a player's obtuse demeanor necessarily merits his destruction. ------------- ...and miles to go before I sleep. |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 15:00
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crusade suck. and BTW... Might IS right. btw What follows is Æsir's declaration of extermination, sent to TLR: lol hypocritical rascals... what you do here is no where different fro what TLR did... well actually it's WORSE lol at your stoooopid ideas about right, and community, everyone shall be free to play as they like. what you try to defend is an illy that has no future. it's ok to defend noobs and those that are weak. BUT it's not right to stick the brown nose into other alliances affairs AND think you have the right to do so. what ego you dudes have, seriously.... anyway, the trend you saw here, to ignore, is only due to the imminent release, then illy's player are just concerned about their own interests. to rephrase that: it's but a silly excuse to play the valiant knight card. all what matters and will always matter is the benefits one would get by doing certain things. feel free to roll over EF, but i am NOT pleased by this. for he did nothing wrong. ( asking medals was mhe, but doesn't justifies the annihilation of TRL ) BTW they where defending in the war they won, so much for fair play, SUCKERS
------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 15:22
| That will teach TLR to win in wars that were declared on them :) How dare they, they must be destroyed. |
Posted By: Turtie
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 15:35
This is simply slanderous mudslinging bs -- So far, clear and concise reasons for engaging in this war have NOT been released. Only the declaration that Nobody of a certain smaller population will be brought into the situation without active aggression. |
LostEros wrote:Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 15:44
So y'all have declared war for no reason? If y'all do have a reason I'm sure everyone would love to hear it. |
Posted By: LostEros
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 15:46
| Perhaps you should look up the definition of "slander," Turtie. I pasted a quote from Aesir which was sent to TLR, which appears to reflect quite clearly their rationalization for declaring war. Pointing out someone's self-righteous indignation, using their own quotes, and pointing out the self-evident hypocrisy in the matter is not mud-slinging. I made nothing up. (Facts do offend some people, I fear.) |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 15:59
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i hear a lot of BS actually. mind to explain exactly WHAT your reasons are ? ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: LostEros
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 16:10
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Aesir's censored public message to the TLR members said that the war would lead to everyone's death if they do not abandon TLR. The justification was that the alliance is guided by unnecessary ambitions and greed. Anyone who doesn't leave will be targeted. This is the hard substance of what was stated in a flowery manner, and this synopsis is not a quotation.
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Posted By: Sgt..Shanks
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 16:23
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jeez.. lack of tourney means you all want to declare war?? Would like to see the sender of that mail here.. and EF responding. oh and a small note also... I do not like you SugarFree... you are not a real player of illy!! *declares war on you! |
Posted By: jtk310
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 16:23
| They said it was in response to the "greed and unnecessary ambitions" of TLR leadership. Unless it is over an issue of some antiquity, one could reasonably infer that "greed" refers to the ToS terms while "unnecessary ambitions" could allude to either those same terms or perhaps our perpetual claiming of the rich northern lands of Ursor. |
Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 16:38
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Rorgash stands and Bellows towards the crowd of weak crying little girls!! If you care, send your armies against the side you dont agree with you worthless cur's or shut your mouth you weak sorry excuse for a ruler
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Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 16:40
------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 16:41
hahaha. great point. Conflict is great, TLR and TRO had a war over a specific issue. They decided to fight it out amongst themselves. and they agreed to terms to end it. nothing wrong with that. Aesir has declared war/hostilities against TLR for unknown reasons?. Great, more conflict and action! except no one knows what Aesir wants, other than destruction of all of TLR. That seems a bit harsh to me... I could see the destruction of the alliance capitol, or maybe capturing 5 towns from TLR to teach them a lesson of Aesir's morality. That seems like an appropriate terms of peace... but "blow up everything" is a little on the evil villain side of things. ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 16:44
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Posted By: Fred Evil
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 16:46
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So far, clear and concise reasons for engaging in this war have NOT been released. Only the declaration that Nobody of a certain smaller population will be brought into the situation without active aggression.
The first part is true, no reasons have been made apparent beyond the 'we don't like your leader' position. The second part is only NOW true after much public whining by yours truly, and an appropriate response from the community at large. The initial attacks DID include newbs (or semi-newbs), and did not come with a heads up beforehand, the only announcement of war and the accompanying advice to leave came AFTER hundreds of thousands of my resources were pillaged, and hundreds of my fellow countryfolk lay dead at my feet. Only public outrage brought the assaults upon my burgeoning villages and towns to a halt. I do owe a debt of gratitude to those involved in convincing the aggressors to subside their attacks. Indeed, even now, hours after my cities have been raided and sieged, we have no concrete understanding of the cause of this war, we have no means or path to supplicate the significantly larger alliance that has apparently taken issue with us. For those who think themselves the arbiters of justice and fair play within Elgea, this does not reflect well upon you. Such actions are without honor, and as such shall not have a blind eye turned to them. |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 17:37
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Fred, just for the record, you had not (to my knowledge) yet begun your whining when I and other community members spoke our piece publicly and in messages to Aesir leadership expressing concerns about attacks on smaller players. The fact that you continued whining for hours afterwards ... that's on you. Probably good propaganda for TLR, and given that you were under attack, I won't fault you for it. My understanding is that Aesir has said they won't attack players with less than 15k population unless they participate in the war. To have attacked small players in the first place was a mistake that other members of the community reacted to promptly (even those who have been repeatedly provoked, harassed and/or harangued by EF and bear him and TLR no personal friendship). For those would would suggest that the Illyriad community does not hold up its ideals, I would say that in fact this is an example of those ideals at work. To wit: Smaller players are left in peace to grow. Larger players who have some experience are expected to fight their own battles, with of course the assistance of any allies who rally to their cause due to personal affection, political pragmatism or just a love of conflict. I remain interested to hear what Aesir's reasons for starting the war are. jtk, it is my understanding that TLR has expressed a desire to locate in Ursor, but not a claim to all or even part of it. TLR has in fact specifically said it is not making such a claim. If TLR did make such a claim, I am guessing that many would oppose it, such as the large and varied number of alliances (including mine) that are already located there, some of which pre-exist TLR's claims.
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Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 17:44
A little birdy told me "We in tlr are expanding our settlement area." Since I'm a duck I have alot of bird friends. Take that as you will Rill and I'll take it as it was written. ------------- Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody. |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 17:47
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We are not involved in this in any way, shape, or form, but I did want to point something out. Attacking small players who belong to an alliance you are at war with is Not, imo, newbie bashing. War is war. If your alliance goes to war, you all go to war. Large and small. If the small guys don't want to be hit, then don't go to war. Or leave the alliance. Attacking small players in an enemy alliance may not be sound strategy or wise from a PR perspective, but, imo, it is not something that I would expect the community to get up in arms about. It is not the same thing as picking on unaligned newbies. Which is really the only thing that "Community" should be focused on, imo. |
Posted By: jtk310
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 17:55
By perpetual claiming of the lands I meant building cities and claiming sovereignty there; claiming as in the "Lands Claimed" phrase in the signatures as opposed to claiming as in making a claim to. I see how that could easily be misconstrued, my apologies for any implications the second meaning may hold.
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Posted By: Fred Evil
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 18:21
This I understand and accept. However, in the initial announcement of the war, it was stated "we are not here to hurt the weak and the unguilty" Yet their first attacks fall upon precisely those described. If you are going to stake your claim in justice and righteousness, I suggest you stick to your word. Especially if you make such a statement AFTER having already assaulted the 'weak and unguilty.' |
Posted By: Garth
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 19:53
The first casualties of war are often the most tragic. Surprise attacks, wide-net targeting and such. To have them be the "peaceful citizens" is even more a slap in the face. Along Kumo's point, there's a slight distinction to be made: the dynamic that caused the rush to the defense of the smaller TLR members is the sense that they were ambushed and had done nothing to *deserve* being attacked. If the first targets had only been the larger TLR players, it's likely the agreement that arose (no non-combatant targets under 15K pop) would be different or non-existent. Otherwise I agree with you. And Fred Evil, I'd say that there was already a process of sussing out what was going on, and your presence in GC helped speed along the advocacy efforts. I'll be interested to see how this all plays out..
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Posted By: Myr
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 21:29
| I thought they weren't going to attack anyone below 5k (I got that from chat last night), but I'm seeing here 15k. Can someone from Aesir please verify? |
Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 21:31
Excuse Mr Aesir sir but your local store has run out of your favorite candy! |
Posted By: Arakamis
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 21:58
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It seems, there are some misunderstandings and a lot of speculation about the IGM message that has been sent to smaller members of TLR and also of the attacks on smaller players. Well, it is an in game message, as the name suggests, it is definitely NOT a manifesto/declaration etc. So, please do not waste your time trying to figure out what it really says. Consider it as a message sent with ravens to the banner men of TLR. For those trying to find gold mines within those words, please take a look at Aesir's alliance page, there you will see that Aesir is here vanquish those with greed for power and restore the balance. :) I'm not that creative, believe me.. :) In addition to that, let me clarify that earlier attacks on small players of TLR have been recalled and currently we are following only those with >15k pop. We also have one of our smaller player being under siege but we are NOT whining about that at every corner.
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Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 22:13
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Typical. The usual suspects jump to conclusion based on one sided Chinese whispers. Interest....waned. ------------- "ouch...best of luck." HonoredMule |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 22:15
so you would not disagree to retire the sieges and stop the war once all TRL towns are >15k pop? that i can tolerate.
------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2012 at 22:27
again to try and drive the point home to those that keep whining.. -------------
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Posted By: Myr
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 02:49
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Night Crusaders, the sister alliance of The Nightbringers, has declared war on Aesir. I am joining TLR to help them fight back against this ridiculous attack. I have been in the game for over a year and this is the first time I have gotten into a war. I do not do this lightly, I believe very strongly that the extermination of an alliance is wrong. I know there are people here who agree, do you agree enough to do something about it?
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Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 03:43
now you, you are a person that has earned my respect. not my sympathy like many have, but my most profound and sincere respect. ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: Juswin
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 03:50
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It would be great for Aesir to categorically state their exact reasons for declaring this war, even if its just something like a personal dislike for EF, or a perceived hatred of TLR's motives etc. ------------- It may be that you are right. Then again, you may be wrong. http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/57903" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: invictusa
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 08:10
After reviewing the situation, I think it is obvious that Aesir was making a strategic move to destroy TLR strategic positions considering this new update we will see. There will be an alliance, maybe two that bully others out of these positions. Hell, it is all fair in love and war right? I think it is obvious from this thread however, that when an alliance has an "established" position whether it be sov or city in placement and it is challenged by the arrogance of some divine intervention the alliance is idiotic enough to think they can wield to uphold such a claim, the community is duty bound to right the misconception. ------------- ...and miles to go before I sleep. |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 08:58
I think that is a reasonable assumption. I assume Aesir assumed since it is TLR, no one would care. Honestly, I thought that too. This seems to be a first move to secure land by an alliance that feels they have the power to do as they please. Either that or it's because they hate EF or they are standing up for TRO for whatever reason. Neither of those reasons seem to have the weight of truth, imnsho. Are the rest of you paying attention? invictusa: I'm not sure what that last paragraph means. Can you elaborate? ------------- |
Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 09:15
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Answer this instead, Why do you people care for their Reason? Are they hurting you in any way? -------------
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Posted By: G0DsDestroyer
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 09:56
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-TLR made ridiculous demands for the TRO surrender. -Eternal Fire, as he is the leader, should be punished for being a bad winner, as i shall call it. along with those that helped in the war. We are not out to eliminate TLR, as some foolishly think. I would like to, but i restrain myself from that due to other people who have suffered that fate. Not that sieging EF out of the game would make him leave though, that's another matter though. As for not attacking people under 15k pop, what is done is done. I've told my members not to attack anyone under 15k pop, but the war started sooner than we had anticipated, so things got messy. As to we would think no one would care, we knew people would have problems, there always is, but i know people who went around siege happy and no one did anything about it, not that anyone would remember that or care to. No one decided to step in and do something about these demands made by TLR of TRO, we acted, while you who felt it was wrong did nothing. That's all I have to say at this time. ------------- http://live.xbox.com/en-US/MyXbox/Profile?gamertag=G0DsDestroyer" rel="nofollow - Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 09:58
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what a joke ------------- |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 09:59
I really don't care. Good point. ------------- |
Posted By: invictusa
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 10:00
I mean when you hear the first 13 seconds of strawberry fields forever and you have no idea what its about. But then you realize that something very definitive that comes into play and understand that nothing is real but always know some times think its me. ------------- ...and miles to go before I sleep. |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 10:02
| Thanks for clarifying, GD. I support your belief that TLR's demand for what amounted to a prestige payment for peace are despicable. I am ambivalent about whether war is the right response, but I applaud you for standing up for what you believe in. |
Posted By: Blyrr
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 10:11
G0DsDestroyer, I have seen the email sent by Arakamis (of Aesir) to the members of TLR. Forum rules forbid me from posting it, but it plainly says that they must leave TLR or they will die. So according to Aesir's demands, all members of TLR must leave, which of course means the complete elimination of TLR. Or, Aesir will destroy the remaining members, which also means the complete destruction of TLR. Aesir's plainly stated intention is to destroy TLR - there are no two ways about this.
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 10:13
It's actually at the 1:00 point when everything changes, but if you aren't aware of it, you might miss it. Everyone listen closely... ------------- |
Posted By: invictusa
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 10:42
I didnt miss it. I was just illustrating the warning signs of it that came at 13 seconds. Furthermore, it seems that all strawberry fields in question have been named (Edit: In some way or another) as being viable culprits by the end of the track. ------------- ...and miles to go before I sleep. |
Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 11:14
btw did Taron like my vid?
Best thing for Aesir to do is to pull back. If they win which is by no means certain ( they are such a disorganised crew) most community members are going to see Aesir as doing the Snuggle bunnies work for them...
Think of that G0ds. " Aesir " a snugglebunnies alliance. Where did it all go wrong?
If Aesir had any shred of cred they would have confederated with TLR a long time ago because the outlook of the two allainces is or maybe was very similar.
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 11:27
...and truth pierces the din... ------------- |
Posted By: BellusRex
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 13:21
Just to point something out here, if two alliances did happen to share the same outlook, and share proximate territory, it's just as sensible and likely that they would oppose one another as competitors... ------------- "War is the father of all things..." |
Posted By: Spheniscidae
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 14:23
| Personally, I find it interesting that certain individuals are appealing to the "Global Police" and "GC Crusaders" who so cramp their style of play in their hour of need. |
Posted By: Avion
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 14:36
Irony is often lost on a person when the shoe is on the other foot... ------------- Suppose they gave a war and nobody came? |
Posted By: Mona Lisa
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 15:22
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Well, those pondering the cause of the war as being a strategic land grab I think are barking up the wrong tree. (at least I do hope so, as my alt and I likely control more of the strategic areas around TLR in Ursor than TLR does . . .). A certainly more plausible reason as partially stated by AEsir, is that actions of TLR's leader finally amounted to the "straw that broke the camel's back". EF certainly manages to generate controversy and angst in GC and in some of the actions that TLR takes ( lest we forget their mini war against those who left TLR and dared try to recruit people?). I at one point considered splitting off of nCrow to form a mini 2 account alliance with my alt to deal with EF's GC statements below (these are GC quotes, not personal mail and are fair game for posting), figuring Mona/Le Roux v. TLR was about an equal fight, although I think it would have been a very short war. [03:47]<Eternal Fire> TLR could eliminate roux if we were so inclined [03:48]<Eternal Fire> She is but a mere speck of dust clouding our vision of unifying Ursor under Reaver rule. [03:53]<Eternal Fire> I called her un-important in TLR eyes [03:53]<Eternal Fire> Her settlements mean nothing, they do not prohibit our colonization In the end, I figured the GC rantings were just bluster, and the error of the master did not warrant scorching the earth of his hapless minions, but the siege engines were all loaded and very nearly were released. In the end, I eventually arrived at a peaceable understanding of EF. A delicate tolerance perhaps. I do understand how perhaps some with less patience than I could be pushed over the edge. I also find it fairly hard to paint anyone as an innocent victim. People do have free will, and there is a certain level of guilt by association in Illy, if you know the views and personality of your leader, and chose to remain, it is not unreasonable to get painted with the same brush. I do see the wisdom of the eloquent Orcish poster here... "Rorgash stands and Bellows towards the crowd of weak crying little girls!! At least at this point, I have no issue with either side and welcome a bit of activity in Illy... makes for more interesting reading ... ------------- 
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Posted By: Hereward The Wake
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 16:00
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Posted By: The Duke
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 16:06
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Heres the deal - TRO made a peace treaty. They didnt ask for outside help. They came to terms. Why let them get beaten and then declare war cause you dont like the agreement that your alliance wasnt even involved in. TLR acted in defense due to a squabble in GC. EF imo is a terrible leader- but to claim your "crusade" is just is hypocrisy at its finest. ------------- "Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives." |
Posted By: Hereward The Wake
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 16:14
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Hey Duke, They did ask for help, unfortunately Illy politics and Thordor accepting terms without informing us, prevented us from entering otherwise, given another day we would have. Which is a shame as that treaty killed The Red Order. Finally and to be honest, if you read all the alliances descriptions in Illy, all claim to uphold the weak, protect the innocent........ But who has really done this? Why not? Illy politics, too afraid of the outcome and everyone else perception on GC. We have done this, we do stand up, no claim needed. But at least we do agree on something, EF is a terrible leader. |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 16:31
| I dont think that TRO is killed ,I dont think Thor is a guy that would give up, they will recuperate over time.Especialy if you manage to "negotiate" withdrowal of terms that were set by TLR to TRO.As for protecting weak and innocent in that TLR TRO conflict it was hard since TRO declared war first (which is mentioned less and less for some reason), so there was little room for anyone to help TRO.Anyway all is working out for the best, TRO payed heavy price for starting war, TLR is now paying heavy price for their imposible terms of surender for TRO. |
Posted By: Fromfrak
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 16:42
That is a totally false statement. G0dsDestroyer was asked for help by TRO and he aided TRO by attacking TLR siege encampments during the TRO/TLR war. If you like, I have the BR. So does GD. And for your information, TRO and TLR are now on good terms. Ask Thordor.
So now this is about personally attacking EF? That's not cool. Please stop. |
Posted By: Endrok
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 17:18
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I often follow GC and read the forums, but only post when there is something I feel strongly enough about. I am in Aesir, but do NOT post here on behalf of the leadership ..... There were items in the TRO/TLR surrender terms that I had no objection to and others that I felt were harsh, but not really 'game killers' Many in GC objected to the demand for prestige & medals, but in the long run that isn't a game killer and people get over it, rebuild and get on with the game. However, for me the main problem with the TRO/TLR surrender terms was limitations put on players city populations - I genuinely believe these will have a far reaching effect on TRO members ability to play the game (peacefully or otherwise) - It is essentially a game killer for anybody subject to those terms. http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/tro-accepts-terms-of-surrender_topic3822.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/tro-accepts-terms-of-surrender_topic3822.html
Items 3 and 4A I know the 10k pop cap (item 4a) was an option , however limiting TRO cities to 3k population (item3) within 700 squares of EF's capital. This 3K cap was a demand not an option! Have a look to remind yourself of the distance 700 squares represents. Those sort of terms would have a crippling effect on any alliance. Who would really argue that these conditions would not damage your enjoyment of the game if they were applied to yourself. And if the only way to avoid those conditions is to leave an alliance ..... that is in effect the destruction of an alliance by proxy! People only need to look around their own cities to see the impact that would have. And anything that has the effect of damaging a persons/alliances ability to enjoy the game should be challenged. If these 'game killer' demands/conditions were not in place I would be less convince about our reasons for being in the fight ..... but they are, so I am! This 3k/700 sq limit doesn't seem to get mentioned much & I am a little surprised that people seem to think it is acceptable ..... maybe it is just me! I know there are many who will argue against my views - but they are my views!
Again ....... I speak only for myself and not on behalf of AEsir as a whole, so don't think this is an 'alliance message' to the community or official stance. Regards to all ...... friend & foe alike! Endrok |
Posted By: Gilthoniel
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 17:52
| Wow there has been a lot of personal abuse in this thread. A lot of it seems to have been directed at Eternal Fire and from people who not even directly involved. It's funny that it seems that the people from Aesir and TLR have been careful with their words but others have been really nasty. (well not funny - that's the wrong word) |
Posted By: Saura
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 18:02
| I'm from aesir & yes we are not going to attack anyone in tlr who is below 15k pop. |
Posted By: Saura
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 18:14
| Well, with such a harsh peace settlement , any1 would have to act to be in good terms with u folks. |
Posted By: Aquennomi
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 19:12
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So this war is because of a surrender term for medals? Ok, here is my take. (not that anyone asked) Medals cost Prestige. Prestige can be had without any RL financial doings. The amount required for this term of surrender, can easily be gotten without RL cost to anyone in the amount of time given to acquire it. Especially since we are talking about an alliance cost. 8 members saving there daily for 3 months would easily get this. (the alliance in question does have more members than that). 8 months were given. If this term were unreasonable then the alliance in question had every right to argue this before the terms were made public. The winning side in this dispute in my experience is not an unreasonable person and negotiations were had. Now assuming the terms were unreasonable,, who appointed AEsir as the defender of what is right. If this is only reason they declared then it was declared without any good reason or forethought and AEsir could quite possibly find themselves on the other end of it from an even bigger Alliance or Confederation of Alliances in the future. Just my opinion but had to let it out. |
Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 19:27
these terms are unacceptable. even if it would not cost anyone RL money prestige should never be asked. ------------- The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies. Napoleon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 19:33
So clearly your objection was not with the terms of surrender, as you were planning on entering before they were signed. So why are you attacking then?
Um... no, I don't think that is even remotely true. While you can argue the principle of Prestige terms, the actual effects of the terms were very minimal.
T.R.O. is neither weak nor in this instance innocent. They declared war to satisfy the ego of their leader. It's an easy mistake to make, and I'm certain they've learned from it, but don't try to pretend they were being victimized here
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 19:52
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Personally, I did not care for the peace terms between TRO and TLR; however, TRO understood the terms and agreed to them. So that should have been the end of it. From what I understand, Aesir decided that Aesir is the final judge of peace terms for all disputes in Illy. So Aesir declared war on TLR. Aesir has done great harm to its reputation. Move over H? [<<< a joke], Illy has a new Master!
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Posted By: Garth
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 19:55
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The issue is certainly not whether TRO agreed to the terms. When watching one's alliance be destroyed (and in the absence of a ceasefire while terms are being negotiated) most caring leaders would accept whatever terms weren't so outlandish as to be farcical. So maybe we can put that point to rest? |
Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 19:56
/joke continued... Isn't Rill Illy's true master? I don't know? ------------->>>>> Third Base! /joke end ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 20:01
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 20:03
I don't know! I thought that was Ryelle ... /me notes that Ryelle doesn't have a forum account and can't deny this.
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Posted By: Garth
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 20:13
Charming demeanor, to be sure. Alright, I withdraw the "caring leader" statement, as it's categorically subjective in any case. As for "poor negotiation skills", perhaps you're right, perhaps we don't know the entirety of the story, it's also fairly subjective. The point is that whether or not the terms were agreed to doesn't alter the basis and nature of the demands. That's all I'm saying.
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Posted By: glorfindel
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 20:33
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My Two Cents: I have followed this situation very closely since the start of the TLR/TRO war. Aesir has tacitly admitted here that their attack on TLR is retribution for TLR having won their war (resoundingly, I might add). I knew from the start of this TLT/Aesir war that it was a result of how the TLR/TRO turned out. But Hereward The Wake's explanation of the motivation is nothing but spin; this isn't about supporting the smaller, weaker, pathetic TRO, who was unfairly humiliated by TLR's ToS. This is about sour grapes: many in Elgea were rooting for TRO to win that war, based solely on the fact that Thordor is well-liked in the gc community, and EF is a controversial figure at best. In my opinion, I think people were shocked -- galled -- that TLR drubbed TRO in the way that they did. But Thordor -- at least publicly -- very graciously and happily accepted those ToS, no matter how draconian some people felt they were. (Personally, I think that he gave up too quickly.) So, it cannot be that Thordor felt wronged in this situation. He went out of his way to assuage people and tell them that he had no problem with the ToS. TD said in an earlier post that he thinks EF is a "terrible leader." I'll argue that I think Thordor is a terrible leader; his effort in a stupid war that he started was a true embarrassment. If there is an alliance that Aesir should be attacking, it's TRO, just on general principle! But I digress. I believe that this attack doesn't start and end with Aesir. I am fully convinced that there is a conspiracy behind the attack. Aesir has no official diplomatic ties with TRO -- therefore, they have plausible deniability in saying that they are conducting this war altruistically and not in concert with TRO. But I think they are more like "hired guns" than the "heroes of the game" that they make themselves out to be: I think they are sympathetic to those who loathe EF and resent TLR for winning a war, but I think that the real ringleaders of this attack are in other alliances. I think they are working very hard to keep their role in this conspiracy hidden. But there is more to this attack than Aesir's vapid explanation of why they're doing it. If TLR continues to gain allies in this war, and the war turns against Aesir, they will have to bring in allies of their own to help win the war -- or at the very least bow out of it without being just as humiliated as TRO was. I think that the other conspirators will be revealed if this happens, as anyone who aligns in war with Aesir at this point is part of the cabal, as far as I'm concerned.
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 20:42
| Nice play to try to limit Aesir's options for support, glor, but I doubt anyone is going to fall for your theories of a vast mumble-wing conspiracy. |
Posted By: glorfindel
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 20:45
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Actually, Rill, wasn't the first shot fired in this war from one of your alliance mates? Whatever became of the investigation into that?
...Sorry, it was Ryelle -- not Rill -- and a player from Hugcr.
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Posted By: Garth
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 20:53
If you care to check the player's profile, he was kicked from HugCr yesterday. And as he had not been online for two weeks before he decided to send those attacks, I find it highly unlikely it was in coordination with any Aesir player. |
Posted By: Vanerin
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 20:54
Also, we took steps to make sure his unauthorized attacks bounced.
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Posted By: glorfindel
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 20:55
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More plausible deniability? Good, so at least we know Ryelle had absolutely nothing to do with my vast mumble-wing conspiracy. I'm glad to know that we won't see Hugcr joining the war on Aesir's side.
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 21:03
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Posted By: glorfindel
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 21:08
Oh boy -- I played too fast and loose with acronyms here, since TD was referring to The Duke: "EF imo is a terrible leader- but to claim your "crusade" is just is hypocrisy at its finest. " Sorry The_Dude. |
Posted By: Mona Lisa
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 21:14
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Trolls should get the target of their trolldom down pat before posting ... of course that might also be part of a more minor "mumble"-wing consipracy between the TD's to confuse the easily confuseable .... -------------
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 21:16
It is at least as likely that the player who launched the attack, a former TLR member, was induced by TLR to launch the attack in order that people such as yourself could malign Ryelle's good name. When made aware of the attack, Ryelle signed a NAP with TLR and sent her own troops to EF's city to make doubly sure that any attack would bounce. This was consistent with HUGcr policy that leadership must authorize any actions against any active player. The player was given an opportunity to acknowledge his error and make amends. When the player could not give an adequate account for the rationale for his actions and refused to communicate with alliance leadership about them, he was promptly kicked from the alliance. You can see that as a conspiracy; I think most thoughtful people will see it as someone acting with integrity. As for me, if I were part of some shadowy conspiracy with a secret agenda, it seems unlikely that I would make public statements saying that I support Aesir's rationale for war, while at the same time not feeling sure that war was the right means of solving the problem. If I am attempting to be secretive about that, I am failing miserably.
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Posted By: Garth
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 21:16
I might also point to the efforts of myself and Rylle (among many other community members of various alliances) to facilitate the discussion to ensure that the smaller TLR players were kept safe and the sieges sent on their towns recalled. We've made no official declaration either way about the current war, and our members have varying opinions (mostly "so what?" or "hunh?"). Cast aspersions as you will, you're doing pretty well. Edit: darnit, Rill is too fast for me.
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Posted By: glorfindel
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 21:20
I'll make you a deal, Mona: I'll admit to my role in the TD conspiracy if you admit your role in the Aesir one?
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Posted By: Jabbels
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 21:31
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Lol have fun that's all I can say (: ------------- 
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 21:31
I established the Illy common law trademark on "TD" long before Duke (or Diva) appeared.
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Posted By: geofrey
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 21:38
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Well I think it's time to put spears where our mouths are... TO WAR ------------- http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/45534" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Mona Lisa
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 23:07
. . . you leave me no choice . . .
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US !! -------------
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Posted By: BellusRex
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 23:23
. . . you leave me no choice . . .
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US !! ------------- "War is the father of all things..." |
Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2012 at 23:49
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As it has come to my attention, it seems that this forum has decided what the Aesir is and wants to do. Yet this forum has lots of questions of what we want/plan to do. Which leaves me in confusion to why there is a thread of multipl non TLR alliance members talking about a war they are not involved in, yet. The ‘yet’ is no threat from Aesir going to declare war on those posting in the forums (thought I should clarify before another thread is created “Aesir leader threatens forums”) just clarifying. I have many informants that explain things for me sense my life is busy, along with my comrade G0dsDestroyer (GD). I will say that decisions are made between me and GD, we discuss in person what we think, and come to conclusion. Other members of Aesir bring up subjects of interest, which is discussed, many involving wars that didn’t happen. Still I agree 100% (or if possible more) with what he stated before in this forum for why we did this. We decided together on what should be done and sense many believed what happened was wrong, yet took no action and hushed up after all was done, we took action. For the Frist time Aesir has step forth for what we believe. Still it seems everyone is turning a blind eye and says we are being “brutes and bullies” picking on a “tiny small and weak alliance”. I will agree there is a 2 to 1 advantage in numbers, there are no denying facts. As I said though it appears the community looking at this forum knows more than me, GD, and Aesirs plans. According to this thread we Aesir plan to destroy all of TLR. Is this correct? As the thread starts we plan to eradicate their very existence. I did not know someone knew my alliance more than me. This tiny small alliance has someone, not even in there alliance claiming we mean to only destroy. Therefore they have gathered other alliances to join in this “crusade” (a holy war I doubt, but these people know more). After this they have made themselves as big or even bigger then my alliance.
GD stated our plans, even though war plans are supposed to be secret, why we had to explain ourselves is beyond me. But apparently the community decided that they should know so we told our plans yet there are still 5 pages of post after GD explanation. We’ve done what has been asked. The matter with an alliance member sending mail to other members saying we will destroy TLR… I cannot control the actions of another person. This individual made an action without talking to Aesir about it.
Last would be today and what I dealt with. Eternal Fire (ET) confronted me in Global Chat. He asked me if I was to continue the war. I will admit I was enraged when reading this forum so I was bull headed and asked him if Aesir were sense ET and the community know. ET didn’t understand what I was talking about (why I had to type this ridicules thread to explain, when I’m not even in school…). He then persuaded and continued to ask, which I told him that I will have to talk to GD about this. After saying that I was the leader and should answer, he also threatens to burn my two cacti (which he counted down and burned one at least). After telling ET that I will speak to GD he ignored it and decided that we were still at war. I told ET again that I was going to talk to Destroyer but he again ignored me.
So this is what has happened, we are supporting a cause we believe to be right. Our actions we thought would be the right actions. We were then questioned and answered the question. We explained our reason of what and how yet TLR grew in members joining there cause to destroy Aesir now. So if we are to be eradicated after standing for what we believe and if I’m supposable a “Illy Policeman”, I have one request: That if any hostile actions are to be made without me every hearing about it from any individual in the Illyriad community, that they too should be harassed, ignored, slandered, have falsified statements, and as well be threatened to be destroyed.
Illyriad is a friendly community…. Makes me question how the people claim to be peacekeepers and friendly when they stand by watching… When have I Taron started wars for no good reason? When have I been a bully or beating on smaller players? When have I done these harsh, unreasonable actions? ------------- I am Responsible for what I say. I Am not responsible for what you understand. |
Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 00:01
I say you are in the right, and I just hope others will see that. ------------- Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody. |
Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 00:31
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OK, so TRO attacks TLR and looses. The two alliances agree to terms, or terms are forced on TRO. Despite a clearly worded post by the leaders of TRO and TLR there still seems to be no agreement on that. Then AEsir launches a war on TLR to "stand up for what is right". Here's where the logic breaks down. Despite numerous posts from AEsir, I still don't know what AEsir thinks would be right? AEsir seems to feel others are jumping to conclusions, so I'm not saying any of the following are AEsir's demands, they are simply possibilities to illustrate the question: 1) TLR is destroyed 2) TLR relinquishes all claims to TLR/TRO peace treaty 3) AEsir dictates a new TLR/TRO peace treaty 4) AEsir and TLR "agree" (assuming we all agree too) to new terms for a AEsir/TLR peace treaty. These are examples only, but I'm curious to hear what AEsir feels would be a "right" outcome from this second war launched against TLR? Oh, how degrading is it to Thorondor to declare that he's agreed to a "peace treaty" that will destroy his own alliance? |
Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 00:42
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Posted By: Finrod
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 00:47
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Disclaimer: Rhyagelle is not taking a side or role in this conflict, and these views are my own, not those of Rhyagelle or our council. While we have a confederation with Aesir, I have told them that for a number of reasons we cannot involve ourselves. As soon as mention was made in GC that an army was inbound from Aesir to TLR, and small TLR members, I contacted G0DS about it. This was before the uproar of Aesir targeting small players had a chance to gain steam. G0Ds told me from that point that attacks were sent that shouldn't have been due to a breakdown in communication. He also relayed to me that they were not planning to siege anyone from the game, or to eradicate TLR. I say this here (and perhaps should have earlier) in order to reassure the community of the possibility that perhaps Aesir's truly did not aim to destroy all of TLR as many believe. Consider perhaps that poor coordination and public relations have much to do with the confusion as to Aesir's motives, and that the early letter sent was just one of many gaffes committed. I also find irony in the global community's concern that Aesir was taking advantage of a smaller enemy, but now they find themselves at the disadvantage of facing a growing coalition. It is my hope that this coalition will exercise the same restraint in their actions against Aesir that they had preferred to see in Aesir's actions against TLR. I do not necessarily agree with or support Aesir's decision to go to war, and I have told G0Ds that as well. However, I do respect their commitment to their convictions. As someone who was on the losing side of a war where we faced a coalition alone, I can relate to the concerns of TLR when this war began in facing a larger enemy, and Aesir's concerns now. From that position, I urge both sides to talk respectfully, and to move towards peace. (...Seriously. I mean, trade v2, harvesting, and crafting are about to come out! Wouldn't you rather be focused on that!?) Regards, Finrod
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Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 01:15
What cause exactly is that? It wasn't the surrender terms, because you were planning to enter before that. Are you defending T.R.O.'s right to attck whoever they want? |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 01:33
| If Æsir loses, I wonder if they'll be given the same peace treaty terms TRO was given... |
Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 01:47
Guess since they started this war no one will back them up when it comes to the terms. They will be forced to give medals or be razed off the game. Then demanding medals for a peace treaty will become normal. If only someone would stop this..oh wait they would just be attacked for fighting newbs. When will this ever end! ------------- Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody. |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 02:00
YES. Until yesterday, I was. Maybe shortly I can again. ------------- |
Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 02:03
Your circular arguments hold no water: TLR has not received any medals, clearly will not receive any and at this point would live up to the inflammatory rhetoric if it chose to pursue such a term again. ------------- |
Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 02:16
You need to relax. Your blowing what I said out of the water. I just find all this stupid and I'm a bit concerned for the outcome of this mess. Ya'll are way to hot headed over this. Specially the people on TLR side. ------------- Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so you will not be dependent on anybody. |
Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 02:20
I Don't know how else to make this any simpler... GD stated our motives earlier in this thread... and sense the community wants to know the actions of this war I will post some nice war news for this thread: The Siege of Durolipons belonging to Caesarus10 [Æsir] by Princess Xanax [~NC~] has begun Caesarus10 a population of 40,000, Princess Xanax has a population 115,000 Aesir is a bully then? When we are being attacked by people who are not in the TLR alliance who are as of now picking on a person who is not even half there size... ------------- I am Responsible for what I say. I Am not responsible for what you understand. |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 02:35
| Edit: Misunderstanding understood. |
Posted By: SugarFree
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 02:45
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some people here understand. some others DO NOT. you dislike TLR ideas, so you think you can kill them. this is all a silly excuse to move war to them. TRL WON an war they did not wanted, forced by the ego of a prominent 15 years old. the community was in denial, so they started challing out at EF to make him do/say something that they could use against him. that did not work. now you say aesir is the poor poor victim if they get exterminated? they ( aesir) deserve the fate they had in mind for TRL, as i see it. and the sugar proved to be brown on the coat after all. i am glad i am sugarfree. ------------- Nuisance |
Posted By: Taron
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 02:52
The main argument of this ENTIRE thread is that smaller players are being picked on! I am not playing victim. I am showing that the side that is being bullied and treated "horrible and will be destroyed"(community words not mine) is not even holding up to there own word. All the evidence they have shown is that Aesir threatened TLR, and that some Aesir players attacked before the war was declared. Sorry to say but most wars start before they are declared. If the game was to be about fair fight and everyone having the same armies, with the same stats, with the same outcome (which to make everyone happy with out having losers, it would be a draw every match) they would have made the game like that. I am not supporting killing newbs, I am stating that they put out there that we are killing small people, where they went and got someone to go and siege someone two times smaller then them. ------------- I am Responsible for what I say. I Am not responsible for what you understand. |
Posted By: Meagh
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 03:23
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To reitterate what Kumomoto posted earlier, attacking a smaller player in an alliance you are at war with is not wrong. That smaller player has the option of leaving the war at any time by leaving the alliance (even temporarily) you are at war with at any time. Smaller players can contribute much to a war effort. They can scout, they can send resources, they can cast spells. They can reinforce. Excluding them from any war effort is bad strategy imho. Aesir and TLR and anyone else is entirely justified attacking anyone they are at war with. None of you need to defend that or explain that action. You are at war, explanation enough. It is true, there are some constraints on wargaming that arise through good play... Zeroing out a player, sieging any player out of the game even in war would be foul imho. Refusing to enter talks when one side surrenders would be foul. Battling players who you are at war with? Not foul, good call imho. I have no comment on anything else i think and really no real interest in who wins as none are my allies. That said, I'm surprised that others have not joined in this war. TLR is accepting allies... I would have expected Aesir's allies to step up. Good luck and have fun to all. - M. |
Posted By: Daufer
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 03:27
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I have no dog in this fight and I'm not supporting either side. I don't really care one way or the other what happens, but this feels a bit unfair the way people are jumping all over Aesir. I quote from HonoredMule back in Sept. 2011: "Azreil believes that he has toed some political line that gives him the upper hand PR-wise should we attack first, that he is orchestrating a clever balance of warmongering and disassociation. If you believe we're wrong to attack him simply because we're tired of his attitude and the sensibilities of his crew, perhaps he's a little right. Were Valar a peaceful alliance, Harmless would feel much greater onus to justify "starting" a conflict with them. But given their taste for blood and our similar size, I firmly believe that "because we don't like you" ought to be wholly sufficient motivation--understanding of course, that our distaste is not some random happenstance but rather a reaction to real attitudes and behavior toward us. KillerPoodle posted our reasons for going to war (aptly summarized as "we don't like you") and that, along with the fact that they're entrenching themselves in conflict with our confederate partners, is what we deem wholly sufficient justification so far as the public need be concerned." No, I didn't care about that war either. Is this really that much different though, because I don't remember people lining up to help VALAR to kick H?'s butt. Quite the opposite in fact... I Just don't understand the mentality. Maybe hanging out in global chat all the time really is good for you.
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