Print Page | Close Window

Cost efficiency in units

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Strategies, Guides & Help
Forum Name: Strategies, Tips & Tricks
Forum Description: Player created guides and advice.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3800
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 02:24
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Cost efficiency in units
Posted By: axer
Subject: Cost efficiency in units
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 01:46
Out of an interesting mix of curiousity and boredom, I decided to compare the costs of some Dwarf units to their attack or defense values, depending on the purpose. I found that Tier one units tend to be more cost efficient than the corresponding tier two unit. For example, 
  • Dwarven Axmen have a base cost 269 total resources, and an attack of 27: 9.96 resource cost per attack point. 
  • Dwarven Stalwarts have a total cost of 446 resources, and an attack of 42: 10.6 c/a.
The values for the bowmen class are hairier, because I averaged the defense scores. however, 
  • Slingers have a resource cost per average defense ratio of 9.05; crossbowmen have 12.04. 
The trend continues for Spears and Cavalry.
  •  14.76 cost per defense for yeomen, 21.63 for halberdiers
  • 11.06 packsmen compared to 15.12 runeriders
Therefore, I ask the Gentle Reader to poke holes in my math, illustrate the pointlessness of the entire endeavor do to external considerations, refer me to previous incarnations of this thread, and otherwise tell me I'm wrong; or if it so happens, if im right. 

Note: All values come from the Arcanum. As neither upkeep nor scaled build times are included therein, they dont factor. This leads to the probable conclusion that when time is more valued than resources, Tier 2 units move back to the fore. 



Replies:
Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 01:51
Recruit time....

-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Hadus
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 03:01
As a general rule, T1 military and diplomatic units provide more defense per g/h tha their T2 counterparts, but the T2 units offer more Attack bang for the buck. This isn't always the case though.
 
Also, you refer to "cost per defense." Are you sure you don't mean defense per cost? Measuring the amount of attack/defense a unit provides, divided by their upkeep cost in gold, is a more effective way to look at efficiency.
 
Looking at Human spear units, a Militiaman(T1) has 7/11/4/11/13 with a 1 g/h upkeep. A Pikeman(T2) has 16/17/11/17/29 and a 2g/h upkeep (The stats go ATK/Spear DEF/Bow DEF/Sword DEF/Cavalry DEF). Now we look at the upkeep costs. It costs the same g/h to have 2 Militiamen as it does to own 1 Pikeman. So, if we compare 2 Militiamen to 2 Pikemen, we get:
 
Militiaman: 14 / 22  /  8   / 22  / 26
Pikeman:   16 / 17 / 11 / 17 / 29
 
Note this shows the value of 2 g/h worth of units. To get the actual stats per unit of upkeep cost, divide all stats by 2. Probably obvious but worth clarifying.
 
Thus, based on cost efficiency, you will gain more Spear and Sword defense by training Militiamen, but more Attack, Bow and Cavalry Defense by training Pikemen. This is not groudbreaking by any means, there's probably a tutorial somewhere that shows this. Hope it helps you out though.
 
EDIT: Oh, I see you are referring to the initial resource production cost, not upkeep cost. My bad.


-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/157483" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 03:36
your assessment is correct.  Tier 1 units in general are more cost effective in terms of resource cost to produce vs attack and/or defense value than are tier 2 units. Tier 2 units are more effective in terms of attack/production time.  At least this is also true for human cavalry units.

As a human, I tend to produce t1 cav during peace and t2 cav during war/tournaments for this reason.


Posted By: dunnoob
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 04:58
Comparisons based on gold p/h strike me as slightly odd, the upkeep is only one factor.  The initial costs (weapons+beer) and the training time, ignoring potential sov benefits, are also very important.   Some troops are not supposed to live long for small players below 200K pop; they die killing the rats required for the graduation (level 74+) of their commanders.  

For dwarves a very interesting unit is the halbardier (T2 spear):  Its attack is only 16, but its defense vs. cav is 29.  In theory that's a 14.5 cav defense per hourly gold upkeep.   They are fast to train (600sec), only yeomen (T1 spears, 500sec) are faster.  But not cheap, 3 gold + 2 swords + 1 chain mail + 1 plate.  An overall mean time before death caused by killing rats would be wrong, I use other units to fight NPCs.


Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 10:01
Training time is only thing that is important, not gold or basic res expenses.In that aspect training t1 units is always waste of time.For exmpl you can use 10 min to train t2 unit or you can use 8 min to train t1 unit that has only 50% battle stats of t2 unit.


Posted By: Captain Ganoes Paran
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 11:03
training time is more important , to make a large army you'll need months and if you take part on tourneys you'll need even more time 


Posted By: jordigui
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 11:23
We will see if the new weapons and armours bring significant changes to all these ratios ... things can change quite a lot!
 TH


Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 15:45
I'm in the training time school of thought.  Building T2 gets more firepower on the field faster than building T1.


Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 17:18
Training time is very important, but if you bother using sov recruitment, then after a tourney or war you are probably best producing T1 as you can get more defence value for your money.  But if peacetime is short or if there is an upcoming tourney and you have a reasonable ammount of gold to spare then T2 is always better.

However, if you are a relatively new player then advanced resources will also be a concern in regard to T2, especially T2 Human Cavalry.


Posted By: Hadus
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 18:50
As a new player the above conversation has been extremely informational, I didn't consider things like production time or basic res cost, I had only been thinking in terms of gold upkeep.
 
In other words, keep talking please, it's very helpful.


-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/157483" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Anjire
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2012 at 18:57
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApL1rFFXeNNtdGtvMV9iVnNCWmlfTWQwcDQxenZnQnc#gid=6

Created by Fluffeh explores a number of different ratings for the various units.  Unfortunately, the elf unit sheet is messed up at this time. 


-------------
http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/26125" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Thes Hunter
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 03:21
Axar your logic is quite intriguing, and you have given me much to ponder.

However, please note the unit stats listed on the Arcanum differ from the ones listed on the Illyriad site:   http://www.illyriad.co.uk/GameInformation/Races/Dwarves/UnitStats" rel="nofollow - http://www.illyriad.co.uk/GameInformation/Races/Dwarves/UnitStats

If the maintainers of the Arcanum have updated their lists, this may no longer be true. Smile

Because I have ran into discrepancies in the past, I've been basing my plans on the information on the Illyriad site. Though if anyone has noticed any differences between what is posted on the Illyriad site, and what they are seeing in game, I would love to know. 

Axar, please keep up the excellent and interesting posts, I can't wait to read more of your thoughts.


Posted By: Salararius
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 17:05
The following PDF shows comparisons of all units (offense/defense) over all terrains for three different comparison types:

attack vs defense
attack/gold upkeep vs defense/gold upkeep
attack * build rate vs defense * build rate

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B46l7avI4cJvelFueXlqMGlMQnc

Obviously, there are a lot of numbers here and it would take quite a mind to encapsulate all the information.  Let alone what isn't taken into account:

City Walls
Sovereignty Build Rate Increases
T2 Buildings Gold Upkeep Decreases

There might be more, I have pneumonia now and am not up to more thought on this.



Posted By: LordOfTheSwamp
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 18:28
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

The following PDF

... has melted my mind! Thank you! Clap



-------------
"A boy is building sandcastles on a beach. You go and kick down his castle. You could say that it only reflects how you play with sandcastles. Others may think it reflects who you are." - Ander.


Posted By: God Of Atheism
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 19:47
Get well soon.

I think that in the long run, upkeep is the only relevant measure.

In the medium run, defense is probably more important than attack.

In the short run, armies created only for attacking to give xp to a commander, build costs per attack power come into play.


Posted By: Innoble
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2012 at 13:10
Some of the posters in this thread make things out to be simple when they're not. Personally I find all three of the following: upkeep, production time and production cost important, depending on circumstances.

I have +100% production speed in almost all my cities. That means I have a huge amount of production cost. I have all cities producing troops 24/7. If I only make T2 units, I simply can't afford it. It's too expensive.

So I make a combination of T2 and T1. The T1 I kill on rats, The T2 slowly build up, to use in tournaments, wars etc. They have lower upkeep for their strength, so they are effective in the long term. In short:

-Production time is a limiting factor for those without production sov and for those who are currently running a tournament with a lot of stored advanced resources. This leads to use of T2

-Production cost is a limiting factor for those with high production sov. This leads to use of T1

-Upkeep is a limiting factor when there is a long time between wars and tournaments. It is hard to use all your troops on NPC hits when there aren't many good targets around. This leads to use of T2.

Anyone who claims only one factor is important has a limited view on things.


Posted By: twilights
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2012 at 21:44
i was wondering if any has factored in cost relative to losses when used by different types and levels of commanders, for instance......using a t2 commander when using t1 troops to kill rats..compare to using a t1 commander doing the same function...or single commander compare to multiple commanders.....cost is usually related to replacements unless u are stockpiling them for tournaments..i have a formula i use but it doesnt take in account of cost of replacement just the min amount of troops for winning


Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 03:19
Originally posted by Innoble Innoble wrote:


Anyone who claims only one factor is important has a limited view on things.
LOL 

Innoble, we all have our own experiences that form our individual opinions.  To that extent, yes, we all have limited views.

Does your experience include existential combat?  Smile  Because I suspect if you ever experienced sustain combat against folks intent on killing you, firepower production would be a prime concern to you.

However, if you place a priority on a different aspect of Illy military system, then, of course, you will opt accordingly.  Because I, or any other player, choose a different priority does NOT mean that our views are _limited_.  It simply means we have a different priority for our military.

This is a wonderful aspect of Illy.  So many trade-offs.  No perfect answer.  No perfect unit.  No single path to success.  No definition of success beyond each player's unique definition.


Posted By: Gilthoniel
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 10:27
Originally posted by The_Dude The_Dude wrote:

Originally posted by Innoble Innoble wrote:


Anyone who claims only one factor is important has a limited view on things.
LOL 

Innoble, we all have our own experiences that form our individual opinions.  To that extent, yes, we all have limited views.

Does your experience include existential combat?  Smile  Because I suspect if you ever experienced sustain combat against folks intent on killing you, firepower production would be a prime concern to you.

However, if you place a priority on a different aspect of Illy military system, then, of course, you will opt accordingly.  Because I, or any other player, choose a different priority does NOT mean that our views are _limited_.  It simply means we have a different priority for our military.

This is a wonderful aspect of Illy.  So many trade-offs.  No perfect answer.  No perfect unit.  No single path to success.  No definition of success beyond each player's unique definition.
That is the wonder of Illy summed up in one sentence. Well done!
 
Of course, cost efficiency is not the only factor to be taken into account. In this game the kind and type of unit required may be dictated by the terrain, biome and other factors.... my two penneth.


Posted By: Innoble
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 13:33
Does your experience include existential combat?  Smile  Because I suspect if you ever experienced sustain combat against folks intent on killing you, firepower production would be a prime concern to you.

Very true. And no, noone has been wanting to wipe me out. It is not hard to imagine what you would be training though.

Innoble, we all have our own experiences that form our individual opinions.  To that extent, yes, we all have limited views.

This is exactly my point. I know many players are in different situations so I would never say: "Only training time is important" or "only upkeep is important". That is what I mean by limited view. You seem to agree with me 100%.





Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net