What should be their punishment?

Loss of basic res and advanced res's plus troop loss is a great defense against anyone thiveing again. And yes , on the flip side -- I would expect this to be an apt punishment should I get caught thieving someone. :) Inactives beware!  

I'm only new to this game, but I think the motive of the thief must be established before any retribution is action. Judgement should be on a case by case basis because there are a multitude of reasons why someone might use thieves and why someone was thieved. Just saying.

Cheers, LA.

Ashtar, if you click on the Share link beneath the world map then Illy creates a snapshot of the map along with a timestamp. That can then be compared to the time when you were thieved, the speed of the thieves and distance they traveled, and finally the direction the diplo was moving at the time of the screen shot.

Essentially, all you need is one really good screen shot to constitute proof...though additional ones can bolster your case as well....

Though the premise of this poll is that you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Maybe they wrote a message gloating about it and accidentally sent it to you or something....

Mafro

That was my logic as well, and I voted for the 10x punishment. I don't want thieving to effectively be removed from the game. However, I do think players should use it wisely, like against inactives or during war. And if they decide to be a bit more aggressive and use it willy nilly, then I think they should be prepared to pay the price when they are caught, because eventually they will be....

P.S. I'm thinking of putting up a post on "How to Catch a Thief" using my recent case as an example...not sure if most folks would want to go through the trouble I went through though...LOL

Admittedly I wasn't aware that Illy offers official screenshots with timestamps, it's brilliant.  It would be even better if they allow to use downloaded map pictures under a creative commons license compatible with HonoredMule's wiki, e.g., there must be something  http://www.illyriad.co.uk/World/Map?filename=Illyriad_x-636_y755_z10_2012-07-06T06-22-2149035d2d-0df0-4ef3-9419-d4bf7c199e87.jpg" rel="nofollow - beyond the Misted Lands , it's the name of their blog... 

If a large player thieved from a small active player for no reason other than greed.. I'd personally raze their city if I was permitted. What's the point? They have very little 90% of the time. 

For players of the same size.. if it's no reason other than greed, send back 10x and never return if you want to pacify me. If you don't care, be prepared to have my thieves in your city as often as I can send them for as long as I can be bothered to thieve you. (Although I'd have to get alliance permission first so more than likely leadership would sort something diplomatically :P)

Yes, I'm pretty harsh about such things but I don't thieve active players - not because it's alliance policy but because I genuinely disagree with it unless there's a reason. Illy isn't like other games, if you don't like the 'carebear' attitude then go play something else. 

If his thieves are caught, then the thieves are dead and player has little thief defense. If they are not caught but you traced them back to his city, you can still assume that his other cities are low on thief defense.

I'd say, count him as an open target and thieve him back. You can also tell about him to your friends, so that they can also have some incognito fun.

Report with name or it didnt happen, and if you alone believe then handle it yourself with units and army.

I'd guess it's safe to assume that those that vote "Nothing - it's all good" and "Return the stolen stuff - the universe is in balance again" thieve active players and want minimal punishment when they are caught. And conversely those that want to raze them from existence probably think thieving shouldn't even be part of the game.

There have been lots of comments about the proper punishment depending on the situation, so here's my story.

I am a relatively small player, 12K pop. Most of my time is spent trading on the market and sending care-a-vans to new players that speak up in GC. I take the wealth I've earned through trading and invest it in my military and diplomatic defenses (I constantly run deep negatives in taxes...so I gotta keep trading!). I actually have a few thousand defensive thieves at the moment and keep my runes locked and loaded.

In the past week or so I was hit by 14K+ orc plunderers, more than my entire population.

Twice.

Across those two raids my runes smoked 650 plunderers, but my defensive thieves were apparently overwhelmed - they did nothing, slack-jawed layabouts that they are - and I had about 20MM in advanced resources stolen. That is a considerable portion of the total wealth I've built. The thief made out like a bandit.

However, during the second raid I managed to track the thief back to their home with the help of a large contingent of very generous players (thanks guys!). With time-stamped screen shots along the way we have proof beyond a reasonable doubt as to the thief's identity.

After consulting with veteran players, I reached out to the thief and his alliance leadership saying that if he admitted to the theft and returned 3x what was stolen, what I felt was reasonable recompense for the 24 hours I had to spend tracking the thief, I'd laugh it off and we'd be done. My intent was to give the resources received as "punitive" damages to those that helped me along the way, as they gave a fair amount of their own time and energy to this stranger's cause.

The thief didn't respond, but his alliance leader did, acknowledging the theft and saying he'd return what was stolen and that I should feel lucky to get that back. Given the circumstances, that struck me as being considerably...less than charitable. However, I thought maybe I was thinking about things differently than most others might and therefore put together this poll. This poll and the associated comments has confirmed to me that my thinking is generally in line with the community. 

Now, I believe I received that borderline-hostile response from the alliance leadership for the same reason I was thieved - because I am perceived as weak. (I hesitate to consider the other option, that the alliance leadership supports their members thieving active players and this is their way of mitigating losses from being caught.)

However, there are a number of alliance heads that have heard my story, many from those that helped track the thief, and I've gotten offers of help to seek redress from no fewer than 6 alliances now (that number seems to grow each day). Apparently some of those alliances that talk about defending the weak on their profile are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is!

I have hesitated to make the identity of the thief (and his alliance) public because frankly given the fact that he preys on players 1/5 his size I imagine it would be highly embarrassing for him (and for the alliance who saw fit to give him a medal). And, of course, I still have hope that my request for 3x recompense will be heeded.

However, that hope is fading...and it might just be that this gets turned over to those that are looking for an excuse for some "good, clean Illy fun". I hear every day how there's lots of big armies with bored generals out there just itching for a bad guy to take down or a just war to fight...they may get their wish.

And here we are...it will be interesting to see what happen's next....

Popularity contests, how to end this?  get rid of GC heh

Like finding out you were thieved and immediately accused another alliance of thieving you only to find out it wasnt that alliance, then never administered an actual apology other then going *oopsy* on gc? I can see how you find it amusing. 

Makes sense as spilling the beans would include confidential info on the culprits diplomatic defense.

I voted 'other'. I view this from the social perspective. If a thief is caught, start negotiating. There's a lot to negotiate, and the menu is extensive: compensation, blackmail/extortion, social justice, public shame, city extermination, personal war, alliance war, declaration of trade embargo, *cough* sandpit. I did write some possible demands, but deleted them to let your imagination flourish.

I like the idea of public shame and reputation, and perhaps NPCs taking reputation into account (and having this matter). I'm intrigued by the possibility of this driving alliances and players 'underground', such that they need to make things work outside the official mechanisms of play (e.g. banned from trade hubs, no favour from the King or NPCs, driven from large territories, etc).

I go to great lengths to ensure that whomever I thieve, they're retired or suspended players: a gentleman among thieves, you might say. However, I expect after tomorrow's changes, I might not replenish any thief losses, and retire from the theft game.

I like that; it places some currency on intelligence.

"If someone punches you, you are allowed to punch them back 5 times and the teachers will hold the kid down for you"

Is this the rules you want in the sandbox? because that's what you are saying :P

Since this pertains to the topic."proper punishment to thieves" and ryelle suffered thievery

heres proof of your accusation, pay attention to line one.

I'd say in accordance to this thread, as an example with the chatlog below.  make sure the person who is accusing you or your alliance, actually has proof. 

Rorgash, my point is that sending out thieves should involve riscs for the sender. No problems in thieving an inactive for obvious reasons, but if you are CAUGHT by an active player, simply having the name revealed isnt enough. And it does get rather high strung in Illy if alliances have to be involved in every little theft that might occur. 

The message here is that thieving shouldn't be an effortless enterprise. If you send diplomatic attacks against someone, the riscs should be so significant that you would need a good reason to do so, not just to pick on new players.

What precise consequences a capture should involve for the sender is still very much a debatable topic, but the current system does seem to favor the larger established players at this point.

get a grip, it's part of the game, and as such, it's a legit way to play.

o wait, just siege all those that thieve out from the game 

Mafro -- I respect your opinion regarding screen shots but still disagree with it . I think the ultimate proof still remains the mail with a player's name on it. And let us face it, thieving is a part of the game for better or worse. I personally think that thieving smaller active players is not a good idea. The time and effort put into the mission does not usually get reciprocated with the amount of ill gotten gains. That is why my thieves only target inactives. (Disclaimer-- This policy changes during times of war and active theft attempts against my cities) 

Ashtar

Ashtar you are right.  Having a screenshot or a series of screenshots is by no means damning evidence . . . for everyone.  There surely will be someone else out there ready to constest contest the validity of tracking a diplo and its verdict. 

Mafro I completely agree.  Using screenshots while tracking a hostile diplo back home can prove without a doubt who the person is . . .  to you.  I have done this in the past the old fashioned way, without the fancy butlers or illytools.  Keep in mind that there is a diplo for every race which has the exact same speed as the other basic and advanced thieves.  No matter how elaborately you document this act against you, there is probably going to be someone out there who says that you doctored the pic whether it be an official illy screenshot or not.  Anything to buy themselves the benefit of the doubt.

Unfortunately...

I agree that there's no such thing as "absolute proof" in this world. Thankfully, there is such a thing as "proof beyond a reasonable doubt", which is what most justice systems in the world are based on. Of course, that requires having reasonable people, which is a whole other issue.... ;)

In my situation, I have time-stamped screen shots from multiple players, each of whom will verify the authenticity of their evidence. On top of that, the final and most damning screen shots showed a green icon for the diplo because the shot was taken by an allied player. As these are Illy Share screen shots stored on the server, there's no way for them to be doctored that I know of.

Compare those to the other Illy Share screen shots, which show time and place, as well as an email I can forward to anyone showing exactly when I was robbed, and that's about as solid proof as is possible. You can take those screen shots and use them to draw a line between my city and the thief's, use their timestamps to verify the speed of the diplos, and use the fact that one shot includes a green diplo icon (next to the green icon city) as proof that the diplo was sent by the owner of that city and not me.

I would argue that this is stronger evidence than even the so-called confession email, which could be modded or otherwise falsified when forwarded...right?

Is it absolute proof? No. Is it proof beyond a reasonable doubt? In my opinion, definitely.

eeerhmm.. you do realize after a LWO Member got caught stealing from a BSH member their entire alliance got hammered and all their big players lost alteast a few 20k towns before a surrendered came. i think very much there is enough risk in getting caught... or have you missed this entire topic and how everyone is ready to attack if demands are not met?

1) There is a big difference between thefts by a new-ish player who has not yet worked out the norms of Illy, and thefts by someone who has been around the block a few times and knows exactly what she's doing.

2) I'm usually more interested in making sure the thefts stop than in extracting reparations, personally. So, I'd rather tailor a response to change future behaviour rather than imposing a punishment for past crimes. This is particularly so if we're talking about someone who's new to Illy (as above).

If he culprit is a small player, then penalty should be sufficient to change the behavior, and if the behavior repeats, then all bets are off.

If the culprit is a large player who should know better, then I view the act of thieving or any diplo use against me as an act of war.  Such an act would require a negotiated settlement.  Failure of the culprit to meet the demands in such a settlement discussion, would result in action taken until the demands are met...  up to and including razing of every city.  Pretty simple, if you start a war, you do so with the knowledge of the consequences.  Pretty black and white?

I dont want to be diplo'd , I would not diplo others unless it was war or they are suspended.  I like simple binary choices . . . 

mm it's a popularity contest and always has been. This topic is stupid anyway, the vast majority of the people who play illyriad will be at the least irritated to find out they were attacked with diplomats and if they could catch the person responsible, that person would most likely suffer to a high degree. 

On the note of "spare the newby who diplo'ed you because he didn't know what he was doing" really?  Anyone with 1 brain cell can acknowledge that thieves, or saboteurs and  assassins etc are hostile units. If we're talking about equal rights for players "which falls under the rights to build the account up", that were decided upon within the player community, you should also make it equal in aspect that all players who thieve unprovoked should pay the same tithe.

If it's proper it will be a punishment of varying degrees that applies to all who commit the hostility, not just the developed class of players. 

By this standard, you are saying that might = right.

Maybe the reason should be because you are an honorable player.

~Vanerin

sandbox, i play the sandbox card.

All forms of successful government for a collective depends on a successful justice system, the punishments for the offenders should be sufficient enough to encourage others to not repeat the offender's actions. 

If the punishment here for attacking someone was to send the attacker a vanful of books, that would not discourage the attacker, executing the attacker would discourage him and others.

In any justice system there is always a form of law enforces on standby to enforce the law that the heads in the justice system wrote up, 

might makes right

sandbox

~Vanerin

was that not clear?

I may put that on my profile.

fun is fun. some people like thieveing, i like executing their accounts when i catch them at it. 
 

 

 

Personally I think the important thing with all hostile actions AND their rebuttals is purpose. At one extreme, we have the PvP-hungry whiners who desire open PvP along the lines of Log In>click World Map> think "Hm, what random player below my population shall I attack for fun today?" At the other we have "White Knights" in Illy who jump into incidents that they have no business in and even less to gain from as the initial offender had in attacking.

 

On both sides of these conflicts, we have players engaging in military and diplomatic actions that offer them no significant gain other than to satisfy an urge, just because they can. The PvP whiners fight to satisfy their need for conflict and competition, the White Knights their desire for peace and heroism. Does it really make one side better than the other just because one is fighting for "justice" and another for "action"?

 

Fortunately, I think most Illy players do not fall on either extreme but occupy moderate areas of the spectrum, and most actions are fueled by purpose.

mmmm ahh.. i shall restrain myself this time from putting most of my thoughts on what you said out there.... but you are a fool who knows not what you talk about. 

PvP is a noble sport, more organizing war games then mindless slaughtering.  please research before you insult PvP'ers.

Think about it, war games are more fun and involve the same amount of PvP as do wars, but wars tend to do a little more damage. wargames +1

more on this tomorrow, tired.

 

Which I why I post here, so that in my errors I shall be corrected, learn, and grow wiser. Please, share your thoughts, after I redirect you to the last lines of my post which state that I know the majority of Illy players do not fit this bill.

lets to a nice litle mind blast, if a person brutally murders someone, that person should go to jail right? well that person has a weapon and if you dont plan on using some kind of force im pretty sure they wont just follow you, and so without force justice will never be carried out. 

also something that no one was told but that person killed that person because she/he was beating and abusing and nearly killing Him/her.    Soo even if you use force and destroy this persons life was YOUR justice Right?

Rules and Laws arent always right... and if you are so naive to spout words about Law and justice needing be served, I will make a law for you, you are not allowed population size over 500 pop. 

New law, anyone that posts after this will get attacked by the person who posted naive sh*t about weaklings being able to rule the strong.

Edit, i think i just forgot, to to make it simple, JUSTICE is getting back at someone for having done something. its not the RIGHT things, its not the WRONG thing, if someone punches me I can BY MY RIGHT punch them back, thats justice. paying someone back for something, either by money if you are the one in debt or in some other way.

 the peace coated illy exists cause the mighty ALLOW it to.

making them the powerful no?

I dont feel me having to sit in jail or die because i killed someone is right, so its not right to me, right and wrong is opinion based, so you can never win on that argument.

(

my other post will be deleted and i will get a warning any minute im sure)

true justice is subjective.  

the awareness of justice is filtered trough culture and environment, so the personal feelings about what is the most "just" course of action in response to whatever offense is different from person to person. 

Law and such are here to compromise between the different ways of thinking to get something that is acceptable for the majority of the members of a society. 

now, with all respect for the most cuddly and hug happy among us, illy is still a game where you can actually enforce "law" if you have enough power to back it up.  what the weak can do is mostly bark laud about their "right" and "freedom", but actually, you live in this peaceful server just by chance. yes.

Happens that for once the ones that came out on top of the first great "clash of powers" where the community happy people, instead of the dark overlords that take pleasure in demoting and humiliating people. now now... it's fine and all to not be straight jerkish, but there is also a limit on how sugarcoated this shall get.

 thieves are a tool. a tool can be used in many ways, just like a knife... use it to cut bread it's a good use.. use it to stab someone it's a bad use. 

now.. if people decide "rules" about how game mechanics shall or shall not be used you take away the freedom of other to play how they want.  ( by "people " i talk about the few chosen that actually have an account here and care to make up this pile of crap, not the Kk of users that play non caring about the forum or whatever) 

a skilled thieve can, whit his skills alone, set things peacefully with his victim, if he has enough tact and finesse to compromise something that works for both. 

obviously, this is only possible with both sides being  somewhat flexible and capable of compromise a peaceful resolution.

 

 

This just about sums up  the situation for me also.

 

Any attempt to regulate theft with "fixed penalties" for all those caught will not only kill an exciting aspect of the game, but have further ramifications for gameplay in alliances who would have to resolve the situation of a thief being caught . That is part of the fun of Illyriad and a necessary part of buildling, administrating and developing alliance strategy. 

 

sandbox=sandbox=sandbox.

 

Care bears and others who want police how the game is played should learn how to appreciate the wonderful mechanics that the devs have made available to us ...otherwise the trap door is  that way

Hadus, from a very old Orc, that is around almost since illy itself: totaly agree whit you!

A shame you are not a Orc... well, at least you are not an elf : P

 

I just want to clarify that in my original post I was not referring to protecting new players or being mass-theived. Both of those actions have plenty of purpose and incentive for the people involved. I was more referring to the infrequent but inpractical acts of (A) attacking players for fun without considering the risk-benefit analysis (and how to minimize the risk portion), as well as (B) defending players to the extreme, even if those players are perfectly capable of protecting themself and the damage done has not impeded the victim's overall progression in the game.

 

Yep, the post above your was more to clear up a couple other replies from other posters. If you didn't get what I was saying, I'm sure someone else is confused as well.

This has been a great barometer for the response to my own painful situation , as described in my earlier TL;DR post. It has also confirmed to me that the vast majority of players in my situation would feel justified seeing that action was taken to ensure that strong punitive measures were carried out against the thief.

Thanks again to everyone for humoring this poll!

Mafro

And remember; for any of this actually taking place, you have to First catch the enemy diplomats, then interrogate and break them, then they give away your identity, and only then is there a 10% (or less) chance of loosing espionage secrets to the enemy, and even then the enemy city under attack must have a standing army of diplomats to send out, for the diplomatic bonus to even be applied!

Spice it up I say.

 

Of course, it isn't always possible to know who attacked who, which is why, if two players are close in population, they should sort it out just the two of them; no GC, no alliance involvement, just PMs and individual actions -- until they start putting alliance ties in danger or one player is at risk of being sieged out of the game.