For example, several months ago, I helped a leader of a small alliance in a dispute with another player about city placement. I helped because the alliance leader didn't have military to defend himself or the alliance. At that time I advised the alliance leader to at least have troops to defend his own cities and preferably the alliance as well. 

Fast forward a ways and that alliance leader is in the same position. Still no troops to defend itself from intruders and begging others for help. He is told to go ahead and remove the city, he didn't and didn't bother to find anyone to do it. Now the city is considerably larger, and they are sorry they didn't do it before. I am sorry I ever helped this player in the first place because I have enabled them to become complacent and that didn't help them in their game development; they learned nothing.

Where exactly is the fine line between helping and hindering? When I joined Illy and the alliance was attacked we took our tiny little armies and fought them off ourselves, I'm sure many of you have had the same experience. Are we making Illy better by our interference's or worse?

When I encounter a situation like this, I generally recommend that the alliance or newb follow two paths:  Attempt a diplomatic solution and build for military action if necessary.  Ideally, if they have followed this advice, they will have gained both the diplomatic and military skills to resolve the problems themselves, perhaps with additional coaching.

I disagree with this. Having the troops to back up your position allows you the ability to speak at a diplomatic conference. If you don't have the troops you will be the weaker party and most likely subject to the whims of the stronger. This is how it is in every situation in life. You only have the voice given to you by the stronger party, and they tend to only give that to you when you have the strength to enforce your position. Now this isn't always true. There are times the stronger party stands on noble principles and allows the lesser to speak and heeds what they say, but history shows the former tends to prevail.

With this said, I hope I belong to the later and strive towards that end, but no one knows how they will act in a givin situation until they are neck deep in it.

*Edited to make the post more readable

As you note, Rasak, we have a choice.  We make our history; we are not the insensate pawns of it.

^ 

this

I agree Rasak, when ~N~ was smaller there were several times when we had to back down on an issue because the discussion was with someone we couldn't afford to disagree with. That only encouraged us to keep growing and working and building. Since then I have tried to help smaller alliances and deal with them as equals. In this instance I had to draw a line and say enough.

@Marquesta: the deal that was agreed to and carried out she not only had knowledge of but she agreed to (I saw the discussion and her response) and now she is trying to claim she had no knowledge of it.

Yes, I should have razed the city when the player was inactive.  Though in my defense, I didn't know I had a timeline to raze the city of an inactive player that was placed within the 10 squares of an existing  city, which at least at the time, went against your alliance rules. That is why I initially contacted you. Since you told me he was inactive I did not panic.  When he returned I again approached you and told you I was unable to raze his city, since again I was not in a panic, did you not tell me that you wanted to teach him a lesson and that you would help me find someone to help teach that lesson?  Did you not tell me to wait?  My error here was trusting you Myr!

I have no desire to rehash this conversation, we will not agree. There are many small alliances and small alliance leaders I have worked with and helped, I don't run around Illy stomping on small players. In this instance the small alliance isn't happy, that will happen sometimes. I wish you luck in your efforts.

For others: Eternal Fire, a long time ago, talked a lot about helping new players was creating dependency. He was referring to Care-a-vans and I disagree with his extreme view of not helping new players get started. I have tried growing a new town with only harvesting and wanted to tear my hair out in frustration. 

The Dude in chat tonight said sometime about helping players until they hit 450 pop. I like that number, bye that time a players has learned the ropes and should be able to stand on their own more. The thing I am getting at is there are lots of different situations and different views of the topic, but there does have to be SOME point where a player is considered to have been here long enough to know the ropes and be able to handle things themselves. I'm not even referring to a 10k player being attacked by a 100k player, of course that is uneven, I'm just referring to handling everyday situations that happen frequently.

Just to set the record straight, EF does help new players but they have to be in TLR.

Care-a-vans are indeed helpful but not at all necessary. When I began, I did not go into GC until around the second week. By then I was beyond the rainbow and in my opinion out of the Care-a-van level. The first time I said "hello" in GC Emily Jade sent me a ton of stuff, as she often did for newbs. I didn't ask, she didn't ask, she just sent it and it was a wonderful surprise. It was not instrumental in my development by any means, just a warm memory of a player now gone. I built my cap up to that point with no shipments of resources whatsoever.

I personally do not send res to newbs outside my alliance but y'all have at it by all means. Sending resources to help a player who just started, who is an actual newb, is a selfless gesture which perpetuates the goodwill of the community. Sending resources because the player cannot be bothered to build up their own res plots is a silly, self defeating endeavor. I suppose 450 is a reasonable number in the grand scheme. It is way too high in my opinion, but Illy doesn't run on my clock. 

However, providing advice and guidance is something else.  I have been playing for a year and still ask players more senior than me (and many more junior who just have good heads on their shoulders) for input and advice.

I see nothing at all outrageous or untoward about players of any size seeking advice and guidance in global chat or by igm, although most players who are in alliances should probably ask in their alliance chat or mail their leadership as well.

OK.  First, please respect the underscore.

My comment about 450 pop was intended as this ...

A new player can count on my support as an independent to pop 450 ... this, of course, is exclusive to newbs that are not starting trouble.  I am not protecting troublemakers at any stage.

I said 450 pop because that is the pop to make city 2.  That is the appropriate time to select an alliance and protection/training becomes the province of the alliance.

Some folks like to go past 450 solo .... that's fine.  I'm less inclined to help the larger they get.  Such is the choice of a solo player.

But, Myr, I had the impression from your OP that this was not about solo players but, instead, this was about 1 alliance supporting another alliance.  If I am correct on that my view is that inter-alliance diplomacy is highly complex and entirely dependent on the individual leaders of the respective alliances.  [I.e., "watch your back."]

Personally you help once in what ever capacity you are able after taht they are on their own.

As for new players I personally only help small unallianced players if they have a buy order in the market. I will them send more on top of what they wanted to buy.

 

 

Hmm

Aren't the emoticons to the left the Yahoo emoticons?

anyway.. breeding ground

My policy on vans is 1 shipment to unaligned newbs with pop no greater than 50.  The Welcome Wagon is 500 each: gold, wood, clay, iron, stone, food.  The purpose is to encourage the small, new player to remain with Illy since early moments a new player consumes all the available resources and then spends hours waiting to do the next click.  I think this is a big reason for new player drop-out from Illy.

In no way does this shipment create any dependency.

I'm lucky, I got two wagons from TD and one lavish wagon from Lorre! :D It was such a pleasant thing to happen, I made extensive plans for my future seeing all those good incoming! :P 

Sometimes established players can develop a somewhat parochial view that overinflates our importance in the game world.  Sure, we can reach out to newbs or reject them, help them or attack them, but the game experience for a new player will be dependent on the path the new player chooses.  And that is as it should be.

Some people will offer varying levels of "help" to new players; some new players will seek and/or accept it.

This is a sandbox.  There are many paths, both for veterans and for newbs.  I think that established players "should" play the game in a way they enjoy playing it.  For many of us, this includes mentoring newer players.  For others of us, it doesn't.  There is no one "right" way.

it was done way before PA was ever even in my mind. i did it when i still was in the dwarven lords. anyhow on the question asked here no simple answer i must say all i can say is city size does not equal growth cause every way of growth is diffrent if you would build your cities to max res first you would be busy for a month or 2 only to gain like 200 population. but even then when does aid become enable? no idea. 

Some people will be ENABLED even after the first small shipment.

There comes a time when you might need a lot of basic resources, and if you then have friends that produces up to overflowing storage, then all you need to do is ask, and you will get so much you won't know what to do with it all. Then the time comes when you are the one giving it away... a constant flow of basic resources from one city to another, from one player to another.

Advanced resources are different. Those we pay for, or are given from the alliance stockpile when we are in need of them.

If I come across someone who might be ENABLED, I explain how we do things, and they either accept it, or they won't get any help.

When it comes to diplomatic, magical or troop-help, it's always a matter of case-to-case decisions. Alliance members will always get the help they ask for (if it's possible), it is part of what we do (well... how I like to do it). Others... well, that depends on what they ask for and who they are, and the history we might have with them. That is what diplomacy is for.

Aid or enable? Only you can make the decision on whether you want to give aid or enable, and how you feel about it.

I like the idea of care-a-vans... it's one of the things that made me start playing, and then stay in Illy. The aid enabled me to stay and play... but I have never taken it for granted.

wanna bet? :p