It is too bad that the current game set-up is not meeting your play-style.  I do believe the Dev's are working on future modifications and improvements to help in this area.  Faction AI should prove useful in this area as well.  Until then, we will just have to wait patiently.  I wish you all the best.

I could see about one of my newbs fighting you as well.

Thanks for your kind reply. I'm happy to hear that. However... Even if they introduce some cool news to stimulate conflict in this server, how much time would it take for a newbie to become competitive and really be part of it? One year? Or probably never, since as you progress, the players which had been playing for 2 years to as well.

Sadly I think that without a new server, it's a no go for any new player.

Be sure to place yourself in an alliance to where you could catch up to the old players/ alliances, or team up with the older alliances, whatever.

No this game is not about personal strength but about alliances. Coordination of many players is the key.
I agree that some more interation is required but this is not a game for you if you are just looking for pvp without any consequences.

Warfare is hard here because of the many interpretations of bullies

That's some sort of cheap consensual PvP. The equivalent of a tournament, just player-run. Thanks for the tip but it's not really what I'm looking for.

Subatoi wrote: Theres a slight max on cities, so new players today can catch up to old players of yesterday.

How long does it take? Weeks? Months? Years? To what extent does Prestige speed up the process?

Drejan wrote: No this game is not about personal strength but about alliances. Coordination of many players is the key. I agree that some more interation is required but this is not a game for you if you are just looking for pvp without any consequences.

Every browser game is about alliances. I don't think I ever found one who wasn't :)

However, is it true that no alliance engaged in war with another alliance exists on Illy? With "engaged in a war" I don't mean fighting a silly tournament, I mean two alliances attacking each other, raiding each other, casting spells against each other, sieging each other with the aim to wipe each other out of the game. I mean, a WAR, as I find every day in the browser games I like.*

And again, is it true that if an alliance tried to attack another alliance, the whole server would coalize against the offending alliance to wipe them out?

If the answer is yes, then this is a dead game when it comes to warfare and related politics.

*If it exists just PM me, I'm ready to join the fray, better if on the side that is losing.

Ok you understood exactly what I meant :) Yeah, I got that on Illy it works like on RL. It's cool, it's unique. I'd just like to try a server with a different scenario :)

About your story... Strongly PvP-based browser game where servers are not restarted every X months are garbage. If you join a server populated by 2,3 years old accounts, you are going to be pillaged and conquered with ease, as it happened to you. On Travian, for example, there are several servers running at any time in each country. A new server is launched almost every month (at least in Italy), and each server lasts for about 1 year, then it's over the way I explained in the OP. Oh, and you can't register to a server that it's more than like 6 months old. So it ends up that servers start with like 15000 players and end with like 1500 active players - like a big Risk match, you know? Thousands get conquered / totally destroyed :)

Why do you guys keep mentioning this faction thing anyway? And what does it have to do with Artificial Intelligence?

PS: "I had carefully built up my castle wall to lvl 20 (the max) and building up an army to defend my settlement" <- doing things this way works only on Illy, I guess :D Gotta train armies from day 1, sir!

I got a feeling my commander is in for a surprise. 

Hm can you explain to me this more in detail, or send me a link where I can get more info? Thank you :)

Avion wrote:  If Illyriad was like the other games and you had picked a fight (under 200 pop aren't you?) you wouldn't have lasted a day.     BTW, there's a female elf posting here: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/1on1-pvp_topic3624_page1.html who would spar with you for real.  (Just to warn you though, she has 10 cities but you might as well leave the game in a blaze of short-lived glory if you do decide to go.) Edit: Oops, just noticed geofrey's post - maybe you won't have any choice in the matter...good luck.

If Illy was like one of the good ones of the "other games", I'd have waited until a new server was launched and would have started together with the thousands other players, thus not having to bear a 2-years disadvantage. :)

Anyway, I don't think that wasting all my troops against a 10-cities enemy in a "duel" would be very "glorious" really. Troops are needed at home to raid inactive (yes, only inactive, sigh) players around me.

I'll see how this Factions thing go anyway, and learn more about the game in the meantime. It has potential. I really hope for a new server.

Obviously, I am very good at my job.  It is not my fault that SF fails utterly in such areas as creating arbitrary rules, enforcing his will contrary to the wishes of others and acting with general disregard for the consequences of his decisions.

Hopefully he will improve over time.

/me is pretty sure SF was not referring to her post.

I totally skipped reading your post.  I hope you don't mind.  BTW, I notice your location is set as "the end of H?" - So basically your location is nowhere in sight.  That seems to sum up your posts....they generally lead nowhere.  

Have a good day.

AMAZING!

I have been threatened with destruction many times and sieged many times.  I still stand.  My enemies are worm meat.  

Get real, punk.  MMOs are county drunk tanks.  

Illy is SuperMax.

Jarko, If you start along with another player as rivals at the same time, and he goes defensive with runes, walls and economy while you try to grow by pillaging him, you are never going to catch up with him in the game. You would not be able to build troops as fast as he could replenish his runes. Troops are expensive and you are going to stay a very small player for a very long time if you are engaged in a war. 

I have played Travian, it is a good game in it's own right. But Illyriad is a different kind of game. Here war is not a means to take the resources of your enemy and grow, it is a mechanism purely to destroy your enemy. 

Anyway, Illyriad is different. You can try to pursue staying in this game, or find another to your liking. 

Good luck with your endeavours.

So you admit you are a player looking to crush people completely out of the game? Then you are a colossal rectal sphincter. Sorry, but this is not the game you are looking for.

You want war but how can you go to war if you cannot develop or grow? If the culture or setup or community of Illy that protects newbies is not around, then you my dear sir would not be able to wage your beloved and lusted-after war in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with consensual PVP. One of my friends even waged a PVP competition with a TLR member over a disputed area of land, and though he lost, it was quite an experience for him fighting a player more than twice his size and military ability. When the competition ended, the winner got the land. It was fun, emotions ran high, units and commanders and diplos were killed, magic was cast, deception was applied, but nobody was forced to leave the game. You can have fun without totally crushing anyone, as you said you like.

If you still want your own style of quick-draw war, go find and play another game. If you may want to reconsider, stay and learn. Illy rewards patience, perseverance, intelligent thinking, and diplomacy. If you truly appreciate this complexity, then you will learn that war in Illy is just as complex.

I am shocked when I see an account with 100k pop and the owner has no idea how to fight a war. Not even the first idea about what kinds of troops to send into battle, or how to determine the best place to attack from. They were sooooo protected from any kind of aggression that they are noobs still to this day.

When the new AI goes live these noob-vets will have to suck up to the AI because not even H? will be able to keep them in check

I picture a mass exodus to the center (safer areas) of the map

Hopefully these new and dangerous factions will create enough of a problem for all the do gooders that the warriors amoungst us can have at it without the interference that usually crops up.

 

Might as well have the developers include in the rules then *no attempts to making this game more orchestrated on pvp. 

When I say small accts should fight more, I mean amongst themselves, where thier attacks are mostly benign and any damage done can be fixed in a relatively small amount of time. Usually by a care package sent from a larger player which most (even me) are happy to do

 

 

As you see... you can get some from people who help you, but some you, and only you, can do.

PvP can be done. Wars are faught. I prefer to be friendly.

I've been meaning to try that personally, send a newb shipments of gold for upkeep so he can house more soldiers then usual, wanted to see if that would work.

in the end though i suggest we accept newbie warfare.

imo it would be *kind of* funny to see another newb post a battle report on the forums of him getting assaulted by another newb with 4k militia men.

would be very taxing on the supplier but worth a laugh here or there.

A level 1 barracks produces 3.6 militiamen per hour with no sovereignty.  Assuming some barracks upgrades, perhaps the "newb" might average production of 4 militiamen per hour; it would then take 1000 hours to produce 4k militiamen.  This is about six weeks.  Most Illyrians have 2-3 cities by the time they have been in the game for 6 weeks.

If said newb attacked another newb with an equal amount of time in game, the defending newb would also have 2-3 cities, and likely enough experience not to be panicked by such an attack.

I think Subatoi overestimates the potential for this situation to be interesting, much less amusing.

Nope I definitely would find it amusing.

a small army was destroyed hitting the runic protection surrounding the city. But my blockading army was able to setup camp around Jarko's city. They were succesful in capturing 200 food and 20 beers before Jarko's forces marched out of the city and caught my men by surprise. Jarko may of won the battle, but I am keeping the 20 beer. 

I put me thoughts in pretty dark red.

 

I think they dropped the letter " R " from that word Lorre...hahah

http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/exhortations-to-destroy-h_topic3665.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/exhortations-to-destroy-h_topic3665.html

I wonder if it's even worth debunking your fancies. Probably not, I imagine any intelligent player is simply amused at best, annoyed at worst.

FWIW, in the recent town siege debacle between H? and Valar, Rill was quite critical of certain aspects of H?'s behavior, and publicly so; it's there in the forums for all to see. Anyone who would think she's an H? pawn after that episode is simply not paying attention. And if you think it was a ruse, an attempt to somehow shift attention from the truth, then you really need to get a life.

GM Luna

Put down the various weaponry that is in the game.. and make excessive bodily contact with each other(I've seen GC's antics, hugging people that much is not normal).  It's obvious this has de-generated itself into a Sim city, hell we need a new server to repair the damage done to this one.  

Or just request that the posts made directly at H? for no reason at all other then de-railment be removed?

We should allow newbie warfare.

So, having had a giggle...

Yes indeed, back to the point.

There is nothing stopping new players, or anyone else, fighting.

What the community does frown on, is people getting picked on. And that's great. I applaud the community's sentiment.

The problem (if it is a problem) is that the mechanics of the game make people wait a long time for their combat, and then make them work for it.

1) If I set up a challenge for a bunch of alliances - e.g.  http://illyolympics.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow - http://illyolympics.wordpress.com/  - it actually takes quite a bit of admin. People don't want to do admin - they just want to be given an opportunity, and then take it. We've had some fantastic battles - really challenging, thought provoking, tense fights, that caused absolutely no bad feelings because everyone was involved consensually. But they need forethought and time to run - they aren't just offered by the game.

2) It's easy, as a fairly well established player, to blithely say, "oh but look, smaller players can get stuck in..." After all, in the last illyolympics challenge, the most successful individual combatant had only 30,000 pop - and in the last official tournament I was seeing a lot of activity from a player with only 10,000 pop.... But hang on! Only 30,000 pop? Only 10,000 pop? It actually takes a long time (compared with conventional browser wargames) to get to those numbers - those are not small players! And both could make an impact because they were working with other players (i.e. their Alliances).

If I join a game like TW or Grepolis, then I will be able to launch a meaningful attack, alone, as an individual, without anyone having organised a tournament or my having to coordinate with other people, as soon as I get out of beginners' protection. In Illy, I might have a meaningful army in, what, 3 months? So, if I come to Illyriad from those games, wanting to fight, I may well be disappointed with Illy. Illy is slow! And then when I can fight, Illy makes me think! Whoa! Another shock!

Now, I've played Travian and TW, and consider both of them tedious, simplistic and unpleasant. I would much rather have Illy be Illy than say it should be more like them!

So, if there is a problem here, what is the solution?

1) Matchmaking. People could go on the forum, ask others for a fight, and then set up consensual combats. And sometimes they try that. But generally nobody is interested. That suggests it isn't really a problem. We don't have hordes of people lining up for this.

2) More player-organised events. SunStorm and Lorre's capture-a-city challenge rocked, the illyolympics fights have been good... I guess training alliances could set up smaller scale battles for their players. So, that would give new players fights - if their alliances could organise them. And I think some training alliances would be up for doing that... if their members really cared! (Anecdote: I ran a small Illyolympics challenge involving BSHx - quite a big training alliance, with what one would think would be warlike players, given that they have chosen to play as Orcs... and you know how many BSHx guys participated? Five. The rest simply didn't want to fight - they were happy building.) I suspect that training alliances would set up more fights if their players wanted them.

3) Maybe the devs should give us more fights! Maybe small-player-only tournaments? But given that most people do not really seem to want this, I'd be inclined to let the devs get on with their work without clamouring for this.

I don't know if I've actually reached a conclusion there... except to say that I understand that Illy may nat be to everyone's taste, and I'm not sure that's a problem.

That would make me very, very happy.

Not sure it helps small players who want a fight, tho.

"Dear small player - today we introduce a new feature for you - the ability to put the 100 spearmen that you have worked so hard to build onto a square on the map where they will be promptly obliterated by the 15k Cavalry Armies of Doom which the biggest players wield without a second thought." I'm not sold.

Wow I managed to stir the pot so well that it required a mod intervention... Without even doing it on purpose! :D

Anyway, I think this post perfectly summarizes my position:

Someone deemed Travian & Co as "oversimplistic". Yes it's true, they are, compared to Illy. This game is far superior, particularly on the military side... Which is wasted by the fact there are no wars.

Also, someone is suggesting that bigger players should let newbies fight without intervening. However:

1. Defensive options in this game, as it has been pointed out, are always superior to offensive options. It is very easy to protect yourself from raids and such - and I can see that: the amount of resources the Vault protects is simply ridiculous, and comes for a very low price! Not to mention runes etc. Someone following a "happy farmer" route of development will always grow faster and easily safe from "combatants". It's not like that in well-balanced browser games. 

2. You are all forgetting the most important issue here: the server itself. I was keeping an eye on a couple new players next to me, with about my same population... I was preparing an army to start raiding them... And poof, one day I wake up and find them in an alliance. I look at the alliance roster, and find players with like 50000 pop. Ooooook. Bye bye raids.

Now you could say "if they found an ally to get behind them, find one yourself!". Aye. That would work in any other browser game: I start attacking the other noob (whose alliance has no relation with mine), his alliance starts helping him and my alliance starts helping me. On Illy: I start attacking the other noob, my alliance (which is a pacifist alliance, because only those exist here) asks me to stop and if I don't, just let me get destroyed by myself ("You looked for it!") or even kick me out. Aye! So much fun! 

Seriously, I've never seen a decent browser game where the devs force new players to join a world started years before, populated by players with 200.000 pop. Seriously, I've played simplistic ones and complex ones, peaceful ones and war-based ones, ones with endless servers and one with timed servers - and I was always able to join a recently launched server to start (almost) at the same level of the other players, or wait for a new server to be launched.

Here is simply ridiculous.

You can have what you want.  You just can't have it immediately.  But that's a big part of the fun, at least for many of us.

Us relative newbs are the lucky ones.  Not just because the vets are generous and welcoming (which is true), but also because we have the additional challenge of trying to reach their standard, starting from behind.

I'm taking the super-slow route by not using prestige in any significant amount.  It's been a year and I don't have 8 cities yet.  But I have 6 more cities than I did a year ago.  And it's been a heck of a ride so far.

There is no need to ridicule this game and community because it fails to meet your gaming desires.

Good luck finding a game you enjoy. 

Me thoughts in red again

If YOU want to fight, then find someone who ALSO wants to fight, and set it up.

All new players have the same advantage and disadvantige. Plenty of new players never last past the few handful of pop in their first little settlement. Those who stay until they have 10 cities, truly enjoy the game.

When a player becomes large, he finds that hitting on new players is as uninteresting as hitting on a few rats... or am I wrong?

BTW... I found and joined an alliance who's believes mirrored my own. I would never join an alliance that didn't think and feel what I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PBptSDIh8

This is the very classic poorly thought statement of the defenders of the status quo in any settled community. Of course the majority of the players are happy with the status quo - if one isn't happy with the game, he is likely to quit it (leave the "players" group). If you don't know, in statistics this is called "self-selection bias":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

That's why it is important to look not only at the requests/suggestions/complaints of the playerbase, but also at the reasons that have pushed the players who quit to do so. And the playerbase of this game is VERY low compared to the usual browser game - even trash ones have way more players than Illy. 

Well, I think (it's a personal opinion!) that part of the reason is that the devs are not launching a new server every n months, which drives off several newbies who are forced to find themselves in a world populated by players which has been playing for years. And about the "take your time to grow up, you'll catch up with the biggest folks and it will be fun" suggestion: yeah, I agree, it will be fun I'm sure... But how many people are willing to spend 2 years to get to the level of the established players? How many would rather start with hundreds/thousands other players at their own level or slightly above it, and quit because they couldn't?

That's the whole point of my thread really.

The developers specifically set out to create a persistent world, in which some people by definition would enter later than others.  This may not be the approach that you would prefer.  It may not be the most profitable approach.  It is the approach they have chosen.  Certainly it's perfectly appropriate for you to say that you don't like the approach and think they should do it another way.  In so saying, it's good to be aware that their actions are deliberate -- starting new servers more frequently is not simply an idea that has never occurred to them.  It's an idea they have specifically chosen not to embrace.

Perhaps they will change their minds tomorrow.  Does no harm to ask for it.

Coming from Evony myself, I TOTALLY understand what you're saying.  With that said...Illyriad is a bit different.  It's slower going and takes a lot more effort to simply grow not including wars.

For that reason many beginners have some protection from 'bullies' or bigger players so they have a chance to grow...from my understanding this was the medium that was set when the game itself started to fail (but don't quote me I wasn't here when the game started).

So an example...without prestige and an alliance to pump you full of resources to cities fast, it takes roughly 6 months (ish) to create a fully grown city.  During war, it takes roughly 1-20 days to destroy said city. (probably less if you're significantly bigger than the one you're destroying).  Even less time if your alliance is helping.

So after putting all of that time into a city to have it destroyed, my understanding is that many people would quit the game for that reason alone.  Again don't quote me because I was not here to see it.

I will admit, at times I miss the fast pace, extreme wars and conquering done in Evony, but if it were that way in Illyriad with the same game modes and time frames for builds, I would not enjoy Illyriad at all.  Six months is a long time for one city to build, just so I can lose it in 1-20 days.  Does this help you at all?  

I'm sorry I don't have all of the facts of how Illyriad changed.  I only know brief moments from secondary sources and not my own eyes to elaborate more on it, but perhaps someone else will.

Cities can be leveled in a day.

and bullying does occur here, if people want I can produce a chat log from this evening in regards to a more developed player remaking on how sieges may be sent if capslock useage for a lower pop'ed player continued. 

 

(Granted I don't know the specifics of this particular case. Generally though when a large-ish payer ends up sending armies at a small one for something like this, they do so after several warnings re: chat decorum)

Furthermore I don't see how one can be upset about 'bullying' or larger players 'meddling' in conflicts and then turn around and say that there ought to be more conflict in the game. To me that reads as "I'm cool with PvP as long as I'm the one attacking and there's no chance I'll lose"

Also: This thread needs more Pirate King! :D

Warmongers have a place too -

http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/battle-royale-summer-2012_topic3655.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/battle-royale-summer-2012_topic3655.html

It's battle unto destruction, isnt that what Jarko want? 

Mind you, the 7 players who have already signed up are awesome strategists, so he gets to play with the best of them on a level ground. (Also he might get to build up in between, since bigger players are likely to target others who they see as bigger threats)

This is why I play Illyriad. 

I will pay the Iron price for my throne!

Well said.  I, too, have seen similarities in Game of Thrones as you have noted.

Betrayal is certainly a significant component of Illy (as in RL.) - from both within an alliance as well as between alliances.  I think we have some shared experience with this.  

Words mean nothing.  Action is everything.  Stand for your own principles and let the chips fall where they may.

Illy IS like life - different people with different agendas, chosing their paths.

When I was lucky enough to so early get to peek behind the scene of a powerful alliances, the game really became as complex as I wanted it to be. That is something no AI can really provide.

i skipped 8 pages of this thread because well i just did sue me...

anyhow, this isnt a game for you, if you start a all out war and die you die, you lose a year worth of town building, not just some troops and a few building levels.

and Rill why dont you send me some cash and i will send a siege camp his way if he isnt too far away