New Emoticons
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
Forum Description: Got a great idea? A feature you'd like to see? Share it here!
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3474
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 03:24
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: New Emoticons
Posted By: Captain Kindly
Subject: New Emoticons
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 12:39
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Dear devs, I am sure you anticipated some conservative mumbling against replacing the yahoo emoticons with the new ones. I am not conservative. I love new ideas. But these new emoticons you created plainly suck. They are too dark. You have to look closer to the screen to actually see what they are doing. I am in my AC and people cringe from typing Emoticons. And when they do automatically, they go 'oh sh*t' Please fix this and get a normal set of emoticons.  |
Replies:
Posted By: Captain Kindly
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 12:46
| If you can't do emoticons, please let us use the typing that created them in the first place... |
Posted By: Casombra
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:02
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I am very very VERY angry about the emoticons. They were what brought
personality and fun into our chats. We were able to express our feelings
much better with the old ones. Now they have been replaced with the
UGLIEST emotes I have ever seen. They are BLOODY AWFUL!!!!! They do not
express what we are trying to convey. Chatting is a HUGE part of this
game and you have effectively destroyed a large part of the fun of this
game now.
I also wanted to add. When all you can do is watch stuff build for long
period of time.. all you have left is chatting and this has managed to
destroy the joy and fun out of chatting with our alliance mates and the
fun we had in AC. I am SO VERY angry about this!
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Posted By: ronm
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:07
plz plz bring back the emotes at least let us use in ac this was a big part of the game for me i really did enjoy using them and did i once spam with them plz im begging you thanks |
Posted By: Batrilicious
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:10
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Hello Devs, I dont doubt of the amazing artwork of the Gm about the emotions, tho i feel his art isnt appliable to this kind of game. Everyone misses the old ones, not to meantions this ones are far for beeing funny. We wished Roftl , coffee and so much others to come back! U know Illy is a game of pacience and most people spend the time chatting and chilling around so they dont get themselves into a boring state. A wargame without war and a social game without funny....lol I know there are a lot of good changes but, and i apologize saying this to the GM responsable, but this wasnt sucessful. everyone is claiming to want the old emos back and i think you guys should allow it! We are the ones socializing there daily. Kindest Regards, Batrilicious
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Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:14
| I like new emoticons. |
Posted By: Batrilicious
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:17
| hey Bonaparta...as u can see your one in a few! i didnt meantiioned i didnt liked them! i did said the old ones were more funny and suited more the game! |
Posted By: Drydenn
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:26
I'm coming down on the pro-new-emotes side. I also thought the EVE luxury monocle was an amusing idea. What can I say? I am a dev whore.  Seriously, they are bit small, but other than that they are funny, and most importantly, unique to Illy now. Race and gender specificity is another plus. Having fewer of them means less focus on the emote spam fests which have been known to break out now and again, and makes the chat no less serious by their lack, if that is what anyone is worried about, judging from what's going on in there right now as I type.  As far as "express[ing] our feelings" I think we can do that with words quite nicely. |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:37
I like the new emoticons too! 
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Posted By: Bard
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:53
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Where is the coffee emoticon? Games are supposed to be fun for heaven's sake, why not keep the basic and very common ones? We play this game, not the devs, and most people didn't spam or irritate GC with them. Some were a bit over the top, like the animated ones, but people liked the one's like the smiles and usual wave and cry ones.
While female orcs have the ridiculous hairstyle given to them in the new images, I won't even be emoting a smile. This is a great game, but not giving people choices is not the way to go. I don't pay my prestige have features that are accepted throughout the gaming world completely disabled because a few people choose to occasionally spam emotes. |
Posted By: darkvoid
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:57
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The new emotions are scary! Please bring back the old ones!
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Posted By: Tora
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 13:57
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Hello Team Illyriad. First, I want to thank GM Cerberus again for the wonderful interview, and for spending his time so freely working with me on my communications project. Very cool, thank you again. In addition I want to preface that I really do enjoy seeing the art you produce and think you do a wonderful job with 99.99% of the game. But there is this 0.01% I'd like to address. I have a couple of observations about the new smileys. Other people above me have voiced concern, consternation and disappointment about removal of what they're used to seeing when they weren't even aware there was anything 'wrong' with the original set you were using in the first place. A lot of this comes down to the fact that the set that you guys have replaced those with doesn't replace all of them, and actually causes us to really feel kind of sad that we cannot communicate in the same way we are used to communicating. Some emoticons just made us happy to be able to use them, even if they didn't serve much other purpose. Like the dancing bee for example. Totaly gone now, and we don't have a way to do that. It was cute, but now is no more. I would also like to point out that I realize you're striving to create a wholly original feel for the game. I'm behind that, and I support that whole-heartedly. It's as it should be. However, some things just shouldn't be altered until 'fixing it' doesn't 'break it'. And this certainly broke it. Some of us don't care. But the vast majority have spoken up rather loudly that there are some that we really utilize a lot and now we have had that portion of our community language ripped out. For example, while it's very easy for me to say '/me goes and gets some coffee' I'm much more fond of typing /me goes to get some ~O). It's more entertaining for both me and others and isn't so bland to say it in such a manner. This used to produce a steaming cup of java, and now... Doesn't. I'm just feeling like the set of emoticons is half-baked at best. It's not ready and is nowhere near ready for implementation due to a lack of completeness on the level which the vast majority of those that frequent the chat segments of Illyriad have come to expect of their emoticon selection. I have to say that I disagree with the sentiment that GM Cerberus' art is not in line with the feel of Illyriad. Primarily, various things seen in Illyriad, are in fact Cerberus' art. It's very much part of the game and in line with the feel of Illyriad. This isn't as much about his art itself as it is the communication it's imparting (or failing to impart) and the completeness of the solution. The issue I'm having with the emoticons is a loss of communication due to resolution dependence which is occuring for some unknown reason. Either not a high enough resolution image to start with, or too much detail, but the emoticons become muddy and difficult to read. Without leaning into my monitor real close, I can't read the expression on the emoticon nearly as readily as with the previous set. The idea of emoticons is to instantly convey a complex idea and I think they're missing the mark due to resolution issues, and further, perhaps even coloration that doesn't quite fall in line with the way we'd expect them to appear for each race. I really like the dwarf and the orc smiley icons but am dismayed by the human and elven forms. I can't tell the gender of male or female elf for example and sometimes the female of that group looks like a blonde 'Wolverine' (X-Men) instead of a female elf. I don't know why, but the hair seems to wrap the face and looks like a beard. Overall, at the resolution and size of the smileys it's entirely too much detail and the communication gets lost. Human male appears a bit like a lego-knight. A bit too blocky. These are all issues that I think can be rectified with higher resolution vectors. Also, simplify the art just a little, or create greater contrast between elements. Something to make the details stand out and not get lost in a clutter of facial features and hair. Very cool with the thumbs up and thumbs down by the way, I give them both a :-b. But again, we're missing key elements... ROFL and coffee and of course, my favorite, and the one I'd have used when I first arrived on the scene this morning but it was no longer available: /:) I really miss my *quirking of the eyebrow*. Granted these issues don't affect game play, but they are affecting the social aspects of the game. And Illy is a social game. And it's causing a major upheaval in the way people view communication and the way they view the world they're playing in. It's affecting communication directly as it's causing a lack of ability to effectively and visually communicate our moods or thoughts properly. Yes, it has that much of an impact. So my question is... What can you do for your community to fix this issue? I really do like the concept. But I think it needs more development, testing, and experimentation before implementation. Keep up the great work, and I haven't gotten to see the animals on the move yet, but I'm looking forward to it. I also like the arrows, very good implementation. Keep it up and great work folks. Please fix our emotes? Thanks. Also, I'm really tired writing this (haven't been to bed yet) and so if it's at all unclear, I apologize. All the best. Thorulfr Gunnarssen
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Posted By: Captain Kindly
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 14:41
My question is, why do we need seperate emoticons based on playing race? It's plain ridiculous. Race differences are nice enough in gameplay. They should not be a factor in communication between players. |
Tora wrote:Posted By: Bard
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:01
| Yeah what Thor said, I refuse to use the ridiculous female orc emotes. Any of them, they are all horrible. I despise the fact that I pay for a game without a coffee emote. What were you thinking? |
Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:08
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The emoticons are horrible, please remove them and replace with normal smileys....geez, aren't there more important game enhancements or fixing the bugs on the current update?
------------- CEO, Harmless? Founder of Toothless? "Truth never dies." -HonoredMule |
Posted By: Bimble
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:13
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This might work for the people that want it back http://bimble.dyndns.org/optiilly/optiilly_launcher.user.js" rel="nofollow - http://bimble.dyndns.org/optiilly/optiilly_launcher.user.js *fixed the link
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Posted By: Casombra
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:14
Make sure you are using Google Chrome though!
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Posted By: invictusa
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:18
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I like the idea behind these emoticons and I think it works. I like these emoticons better. Many of the people who want the yahoo emotes are the ones that overuse them and make GC look more and more like a teenage chat room of an eyesore. As an artist myself I have to recognize the creativity that Cerberus put into these. ------------- ...and miles to go before I sleep. |
Posted By: dspn23
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:23
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i must say this is a amazing idea :P it's quite cool this and i would never think in something this great. there is just one problem: they are terrible... specialy orc ones... i don't want them to be removed as it's a wonderfull idea. instead i want them to be edited (specialy orc's ones (humans are, i belive, the better ones) ) and make something a bit soffter so that you can recognize what kind of smile is it whithout having to pass the rat on it to see wich is it... maybe something green.... like this one:
 |
Posted By: Casombra
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:27
I like this idea however. Makes both camps happy. For those that do not like the old emotes you won't see them and only see the new ones. For those of us that enjoy and love the expression we get out of the old ones we can STILL enjoy them. We are all happy that way!
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Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:31
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No we aren't happy, I use FF and I'm extremely annoyed, however, given the level of bugs this update has created, the emoticon fix is low on the list. :( (It really would be nice if updates were extensively tested before release)
------------- CEO, Harmless? Founder of Toothless? "Truth never dies." -HonoredMule |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:34
| I totally agree with Starry. |
Posted By: Bimble
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:35
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Woeps, wrong link. http://bimble.dyndns.org/optiilly/optiilly_launcher.user.js" rel="nofollow - http://bimble.dyndns.org/optiilly/optiilly_launcher.user.js
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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:37
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Hello all, Thanks for your feedback on the new emotes. While I think they are immensely clever and add so much more flavor to chat, I can understand if you don't agree. That said... First, the old generic yahoo emoticons are not going to return. I'm sorry. In the meantime (as what I hope will be a workable compromise) we are looking to add the option to the new upcoming chat system overhaul to uncheck a "use racial emotes" option. So that if you do not like them, you can turn them off and only see the traditional text emotes like :) for example. I hope this helps, but again, this is something that will come with the new chat system and is understandably lower priority than some other things going into that chat upgrade. Until that time, I'm sorry if you don't like the new emotes. This is certainly a touchy subject and is a matter of personal opinion and taste that it would be impossible for us all to agree upon. Thanks for your patience. Luna ------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk 
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Posted By: Sweet Cheeks
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:37
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If the link above doesn't work, try this to install extension: http://bimble.dyndns.org/optiilly/optiilly_launcher.user.js" rel="nofollow - http://bimble.dyndns.org/optiilly/optiilly_launcher.user.js Refresh Chrome, and then use this page for what to type: http://bimble.dyndns.org/optiilly/optiilly.js" rel="nofollow - http://bimble.dyndns.org/optiilly/optiilly.js Type what is on far left without quotes to get the emoticon you want.
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Posted By: LadyLuvs
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:38
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Not thrilled with the new emotes. I know you all trying to cut back on emote spamming. I guess if we have to live with these you will correct that, but you could always make the penalties stiffer for those that spam. That might be a deterrent. I know I don't allow it in my Alliance Chat. Spamming is a sore spot for me.
------------- LadyLuvs Raven, Murder of Crows Alliance |
Posted By: Starry
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:40
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I am going to disagree, it's not just a matter of opinion but a matter of functionality. Many of our alliance members are having difficulty distinguishing the difference between the various emoticons. In any case, seems to me there were other issues that should have been addressed (like pre release testing and old game bugs, mail, etc.); obviously priorities differ between players and the Dev team. :(
------------- CEO, Harmless? Founder of Toothless? "Truth never dies." -HonoredMule |
Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:43
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Just to clarify, GM Cerberus (our art director) made the new emoticons. He is not the same person that would address technical issues for the update. So literally, no time was taken away from other issues in order to change the emotes. Luna ------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: Casombra
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:47
If you use Firefox Starry just download Greasemonkey and then you can use it as well. I use FF too and with using Greasemonkey you can see them too! Our alliance too have many members that love to chat, joke, and have alot of chat fun while waiting on builds and such. We used the emoticons as our way to express how we felt.. it was part of our everyday fun with each other! We can now STILL enjoy it and those that like the new ugly things can enjoy those as well! I do agree the ones that did the emote spam should get heavier hammers. Many that did not do this and were respectful are now paying a heavy price.
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Posted By: Sister Nikki
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 15:51
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The update as most of the previous updates seems to be untested which surely characterizes the game :( However the update as an update finaly came up after a very long period and the Devs made a great effort. Altough the most update is about technical issues i do not underastand the way that the developers are looking their own game. What i mean about that is that previous we had the donkey image for vans and the pigeons for diplo units, That was a trademark of Illyriad which has been vanquished, Now we face a new minor change with much resonance, something which was making us happier playing Illyriad during our real life problems the smilleys or emoticons which were so happy and lovelly and instead of add more you have vanquished the old ones by adding these a bit "ugly" emoticons. Sorry but i can't understand your philoshophy :( |
Posted By: nightfury
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 16:03
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I cant imagine using new emotes they are ugly and not recognizable by most. I loved using emotes and they were fun. Chatting without them is plain boring. Without old emotes i may just go and shut myself up.
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Posted By: nightfury
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 16:07
When majority are unhappy about new emotes one need to think a rollback. I am sad with you using your authoritativeness to reject a just demand.
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Posted By: Silverlake
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 16:08
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You just can't differentiate between them... is that a smile? Contrast is too severe and too much detail... I appreciate the effort, but they do not enhance my enjoyment of the game. |
Posted By: Sister Nikki
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 16:16
I agree Nightfury and such behaviors brings me other things in my mind .:( |
Posted By: invictusa
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 16:20
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This thread is hilarious. +1 ------------- ...and miles to go before I sleep. |
Posted By: Captain Kindly
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 16:43
Thank you Luna. :) |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 17:03
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Those that love the old emoticons can use them again using the javascript page, what is the complaint about? (except that you cant force others to see it the way you wish?) let those of us who like the supposedly ugly new icons enjoy them.
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Posted By: Queen B
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 17:12
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I really miss my waving emote. Will there be an illy waving emote in the future?
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Posted By: Captain Ganoes Paran
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 17:38
| the new emoticons really make me sad and it takes the fun out of chating for me :*( |
Posted By: Sister Nikki
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 18:12
| +1 Captain :) |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 18:18
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I have a hard time distinguishing between the new emoticons. (I can't tell whether someone is smiling or frowning without mousing over them, which sort of defeats the purpose.) But I have a different reaction that may be unique to me or may be shared by others. I do not like that the emoticons identify me by avatar gender. (I'm not particularly excited about the race thing either, but I can live with it.) I am female and my avatar is female, but I have no desire to constantly emphasize that fact. Sometimes I act "girly," and that's fun. But I also rejoice when a new player refers to me as "he" or "him." My gender is far from the most important aspect of who I am, and I prefer to be who I am first and identified by gender second if at all. I'm not going to whinge about the difficulties of being a female player in the gaming world. Suffice it to say that many of us have ample reason to be hesitant to even identify ourselves as female, never mind shoving it in people's faces constantly. And no, I don't think the right solution is just choosing a male avatar so I can be "normal." What I'm saying is, gender is not that important to me, and I don't feel a need to continually emphasize it. A smile is a smile. A frown is a frown. I want to be myself without bringing gender into it. Thanks for giving consideration to these thoughts.
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 18:20
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Whelp, Butler still supports the same 94 emoticons that it has for ages. I may change them some day to be more thematically appropriate and not animated, but they'll always be distinct and expressive, as is the whole point of an emoticon. So if you're not happy with the new ones, maybe it's time to check it out: http://arcanum-illyria.com/wiki/Tool:Butler" rel="nofollow - http://arcanum-illyria.com/wiki/Tool:Butler ------------- "Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now." - HonoredMule |
Posted By: Rohk
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 18:24
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Well said Rill, I too cannot tell the difference between the smile and frown without getting out a magnifying glass. I agree with your concerns about gender too because people can choose to play a different gender than they are in RL for various reasons (such as the LGBT community) and may want to play ambiguously on purpose. I have seen female gamers discriminated against before in other games and I can understand not wanting to advertise it. Your comment reminded me of this: http://xkcd.com/322/" rel="nofollow - http://xkcd.com/322/
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Posted By: Marquesta
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 18:30
I disagree Invictus, I have seldom seen anyone spam GC with emotes, and never in AC. And I myself have never and will never spam with emotes, the idea is ridiculous. I agree that communications are suffering from the lack of clear emotes, but its not something that we can't get around. Mostly what I see here is pouting and selfishness, but I do agree with those who have put forth valid arguments. ------------- ~~Marquesta Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them... |
Posted By: Sister Nikki
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 19:20
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Tried to resist
but sorry I did not succeed. :( I do agree with Rill and also i do feel that a small piece of freedom suffers, sorry my opinion. |
Posted By: Gossip Boy
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 20:06
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This is a great idea but poor execution (sorry to whoever created the designs, all of us can see the effort you had put into this) I think the use of the new emotes should be optional and if some small alterations to current designs are made which will make them look distinct.players will start using them on their own. |
Posted By: Cerex Flikex
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 21:00
I think this is a great compromise, and thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread. I'm sure there will be some who won't like that option either though. Can't please everyone. |
Posted By: norsegodofmischief
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 21:45
| Just my 2 cents - I don't like the new emotes either. The option to deselect them would be a good solution. On my other game, a new "improved" chatpane was set up in response to some members who wanted changes. Note the word "some". Problem was some things just don't work anymore in the new chatpane, like typing /who to see which of your clanmates is currently online and in clan chat or typing /pm and a player's name to be able to send him/her a private message while in chat. Solution was to make the new "improved" chatpane features optional. I gave the new chatpane a 3 week struggle and went back to the old one yesterday. Some things just don't need improving - like the old Illyriad emotes here. JMHO. |
Posted By: JimJams
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 22:37
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As a developer I think the new emoticons was introduced preparing for the new chat system (simplify things before going ahead). But the new icons are undetectable, and not funny. So an option to completely remove it will be nice. By the way, Illy devs, you really really really need a test server. I know, you test it, but you need a live test server where deploy the changes before going live. Where the community can test and give feedback. Trust me, I have over 30 years experience developing, managing projects, consulting... Applying patches on the live server is bad, first or later it will cost you more than 100 test server.
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Posted By: Berde
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 22:39
Not only do I not like the emoticons - I think I've pretty much decided I don't like -THE GAME- as a whole. It seems every time I turn around, the Devs are fixing something that isn't broken (meaning the function, and no one's complaining about it. I go away for a couple of days and come back to find, basically, an entirely different game. One that doesn't WORK, either. Just changing pages from one screen of the research tree to the next is resulting in a 10-second loading delay. Chat lags. I can't get the world map to move from one city to the other. It's now hard for me, with my visual impairment, to tell an animal NPC from parked neutral army. And on and on and on. And there's little doubt that all these "little" changes, these "new bells and whistles" that aren't -necessary- for the game to work are to blame. Oh, and for whatever reason? Half the forum posts that are new don't have new post stars. I regret having EVER paid ANY money to play this game right now.
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Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 22:53
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I think there's a big picture issue that most everyone might be missing here. Emoticons - graphical ones - are created by a person or corporation, and to whom copyright resides. You may think "that's ridiculous", but it is unfortunately the law. The old chat emoticons are not coming back, ever, as we do not have any licence to provide these chat emoticons for you to use; nor is one available. We did look at some of the available licensed emoticon sets, but did not see any that caught our eye or provided a suitable number of emoticons in a consistent style. And there's also a cost involved. So it was decided that we would provide our own emoticon set. We will, as Luna has mentioned, be providing the ability to go to purely textual emoticons if players prefer to use those. I would, however, caution that even these are not as entirely straightforward as they might seem at first glance. You might think that textual emoticons such as :-) and :-( are copyright free. The US Patent Office, in a masterstroke of infinite stupidity only rivalled by the patent they issued for http://www.google.com/patents/US5443036" rel="nofollow - using a laser pointer as a cat toy , has actually granted a http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=75502288" rel="nofollow - Patent for the textual representation of the "frown" emoticon . Luckily the owners of :-( ® are the highly amusing Despair Inc, who have chosen to use this patent to http://www.despair.com/frownonthis.html" rel="nofollow - highlight the imbecility of the current Patent and Trademark system rather than to attempt to prosecute every internet user in the world for breaching their lawfully-owned registered trademark. Anyway. The long-and-short of it is... we're not going to be listening to any calls for the return of the old emoticon set, and it has nothing to do with Illy Corp being stubborn, or changing things for the sake of changing them. If only we had the luxury of that kind of time! Regards, SC
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Posted By: Tora
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 23:00
You cannot be serious. I actually find that statement to be a little of a personal affront. Not mention an absolutely absurd generalization. Do I over use them? Have I ever spammed chat and made it look like an eyesore? I'm one of those 'most people' you're talking about. There is something called a 'spam filter' for overuse. Emoticons convey the emotion of the individual using them (or are supposed to), and if the emoticon does not convey the proper communication it's a failure. These actually make me shake my head everytime I see them. And incidentally, I'm also an artist. Like Bard says, racially typifying the smileys by race is 'ok' but unnecessary, and to be honest, the yahoo set is by far more extensive and capable. Wait till you go to do something 'as an artist' to express yourself and all you get is ;-|. Just an example. I do understand and recognize the creativity 'as an artist' which GM Cerberus put into these, but I think in this case 'communication' trumps 'creativity'. That doesn't mean one shouldn't be creative, but that the communication given by the creative should be more important than the creativity itself. And no, it doesn't work. At least not the actual facial smiley group. The reason why is due to readability. Like typography, iconography must be speedily and also intuitively grasped. If someone smiles or winks for example and it makes me lean back, and quirk a brow and then lean into my screen and even briefly think 'wtf?' then it's not working. And these cause that. If you look at the smileys for the forum for example (just on your left) you'll see a ton of bright little smileys that are all easy to read and instantly recognizable for the emotion or expression they wish to convey. They work. If you over complicate something, it stops working. I think some of the problem is the shape. Circles are easy to re-size, complex shapes on the other hand outside of base geometry, is not. Most of the icons have complex shapes and this makes it hard to see the minute details of the face. Ultimately this issue isn't about art, it's about communication. |
Posted By: Tora
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 23:10
Understood, however, I'm not calling for a return, rather just a bit more development of additional pieces to round out this set, and also refinement of the pieces that are illegible or utterly dissatisfying to most people that have to use them. As it stands, it affects communication. If anything, the emoticons should be bolstering it. I realize it's hard to rival the yahoo emoticons, and that sort of time might not be on the board for you guys. I really do like Cerberus work, if I didn't, I'd not have asked him to do the interview with me, I think he's more than capable, and this might just come down to time. But this set needs to continuously get some love so that it's not representing Illyriad or the communications of its players horridly. That's largely my point. Not that you should open yourself to litigation by using an unlicensed emoticon set, but rather that what you've started needs a lot of work to be both communicative and creatively enjoyable. For example, though he's a little hard to read still, I think the Orc is actually somewhat adorable. In so far as Orcs go. But when he winks, he looks like someone punched him in the eye. So that's what I'm talking about. And I want a coffee cup! Can we get a huzzah! on the coffee cup? Just curious. :D |
Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 23:10
Leave the game then and stop wasting our time whinging. I'm a tiny bit sick of this sort of attitude, now guess what? The game is not yours. It's not mine, or any of the community's. It's SCs, TCs, Lunas, Cerbs, Tiberius and the rest of the GMs game. So they can do what the heck they want with it. Personally, I can live without a few emotes, and overall I think the GMs deserve a pat on the back.
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Posted By: Aurordan
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 23:25
| I would like to add here that, besides the complaining here and on Global, I have literally heard not one comment about the new emotes. Out of an alliance of seventy players, none have mentioned it, and are if anything using the new ones more. So, I think we can stop shouting about how "everyone wants the old ones back!" and put this down to a small, vocal minority. |
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 23:35
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I may need to write a follow-up to http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/game-time-clock-discussion_topic302.html" rel="nofollow - the last firestorm we had of a similar nature . "Chapter Two - Deceptimoticons Attack!"....? |
Posted By: LadyLuvs
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 00:26
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Blah nevermind. This is above my pay grade. ------------- LadyLuvs Raven, Murder of Crows Alliance |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 00:33
+1000 And while we are on the subject of emotes, I prefer the new ones then the old ------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 00:39
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These are the rules with relation to third party tools: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/rules-regarding-third-party-tools_topic756.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/rules-regarding-third-party-tools_topic756.html . If all it is doing is replacing the emotes on the users end, I think it's ok. (Subject to change upon more information or any breach of the TOS.) As with any player-created plug-in, use at your own risk. If it causes problems your petitions about it won't get much help. Other than that, enjoy. :) Luna ------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 02:15
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Stormcrow, I'm sorry to say this, but I think that you set up a strawman in order to avoid listening to our real concerns. I understand why you can't keep using the old emoticons. Even before you specifically identified intellectual property concerns as *part* of the reason for the change, I thought that was likely part of what was driving the change, or at least why the change is happening now. You had to change the emoticons, and you put a lot of effort into trying to create something that would not just replace the old emoticons but enhance the game. Kudos to you. Really, well done and I appreciate it. Not every game would go the extra mile like that. Hard to think of another that would. However, I can't read the new emoticons. Something that is supposed to communicate information to me fails to do so. I would prefer something that communicated the information more clearly. I would also prefer it if it were not gender-specific, for the reasons I outlined above. I recognize that this is FAR from the most important thing going on right now. I also recognize that a lot of work went into the new emoticons, not to mention all the other amazing changes. Thank you all so much, really, really. But it would be really nice to hear back from the development team that you recognize that these concerns, which are not mine alone, may have some validity. And that you might consider reworking the icons *at some point in the distant future when you have time and are not working on more important stuff*. It feels to me like thus far they Illyriad team has been dismissive of constructive suggestions, which is really unusual for you folks, who are normally so patient and open. I wonder if part of it is because you are likely exhausted from the tremendous effort that went into the recent changes and maybe are not hearing what we are really saying. I don't hear most players saying "Hop to it, this is horrible, you must change it right away." We are saying "This doesn't seem to be working as well as it could, we'd appreciate it if you made some tweaks." I would like to hear that you understand that we are expressing these concerns with positive intentions. It doesn't mean that you have to change anything, just that you've heard us.
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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 03:26
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I want nothing more than to not continue to belabor this topic. We have, at this point, given several reasons why the old emoticons are not going to return. I stated earlier that I understand if people do not like them, for any number of reasons. You all are entitled to your personal opinions about the artwork. I stated earlier that we are working toward a compromise for the next chat update in which you will be able to turn these off if you don't like them. At some point in the future it is within the realm of possibility that the art for them may be re-addressed. It also very well may not. I can't say either way at this point as it is way too early to say. We are not dismissing concerns, we are responding to them in an appropriate manner as we both see fit. Luna
------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: Tora
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 03:53
Everything I've said above, nicely condensed and sans the solutions previously stated. I agree with this. Like I was trying (and I don't know how successfully) state in my posts, this is entirely about communication, and I really dig the style, the style is very Illy and it's spot on, unfortunately for an emoticon, it's like it's too much detail, without enough contrast to identify key elements. It's too complex. And this is hurting the communication it is designed to impart. Cerberus, I just want you to know, this is in no way meant as a personal attack on your art style or your efforts. Your art is phenomenal. Just bringing up or trying to bring up, and apply a constructive and soluble feedback to this 'situation' - as it seems to be. In any case, not to continue rehashing, I have something (partially selfish, because I'm such a coffeemonger) for everyone that liked that emoticon. I'm currently working on a new coffee cup emoticon for those of us that really liked being able to send each other one, or go for our own hot cup of java. I realize it's so simplistic, but it makes my day being able to for some reason. I've got the mug done, complete with it's little saucer and am working on animating the steam. And yes Silent, I'll work on your fire too, though that is much more complex than steam. The colors and motion of it, as such. In any case... The thing I'm concerned about also, just as with anything, is the amount of detail causing it to look like a white lump without any discerning features, or that the detail disappears and it looks like a dot with a handle, or something instead of a hot cup of coffee... We'll see. It should be fine, I'm rendering the original in 800x600 vector images, so we'll see what cracks I guess. But it would be cool if we could get it tied into the current set with the keys as the old coffee was: ~O) http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n595/Vis_Com/Coffee-Emoticon1.png The cup so far. Feedback welcome. Coffee enthusiasts unite! heh
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Posted By: Tora
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 03:59
Thank you Luna for the appropriate reply. Could you folks check the link I left above and tell me if it's something you're willing to implement? It's not quite finished, I still have to do the steam and then gif it all up so it's animated. Let me know huh? It'll be yours to use without issue. Thanks. Thorulfr
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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 04:07
I am very sorry, but no, we are not looking to add a coffee emote. We don't want to open the pandora's box of emote requests. It simply wouldn't be fair to take one and not any others that people could dream up. Luna ------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: Ashtar
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 04:20
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I think this whole issue has been blown up way too much. We have a really cool FREE to play game and have a really good community - the loss of a few emo's is a small price to pay for a game that has dev's that actually listen to player suggestions, fix solutions and depend on the players for enhancement ideas. Simple solution -- don't use the new emo's if you don't like them. Ashtar ------------- Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. - Buddha |
Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 04:34
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or just type it like this : p : ) ; ) it's what me and my guildmates have been doing.
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Posted By: Tora
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 05:01
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Subatoi, that's a scary sig line you got there. @Luna: Thank you. Thought I'd ask. It's just something to give me some practice anyway, lol Almost done with it too. :-} |
Posted By: Createure
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 09:20
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RAAAAAAGGGGEEE!!!!!!!11111 Ok not really, they're only emoticons. |
Posted By: Tora
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 10:20
| lol |
Posted By: Gilthoniel
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 11:32
Look TC and Luna. You might as well admit defeat and accept that the old emoticons were a major selling point for the game. They were fun. People loved them. So stop playing "head in the sand" and restore them. 
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Posted By: Createure
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 11:48
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Yep. I don't know about everyone else... but I only signed up to Illy cos I heard how awesome the emoticons were. |
Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 14:04
Beri, are you by chance using Opera for your browser? I have noticed that Illyriad's interface is non-functional in a lot of small ways in Opera since well before the latest update. The resource bar doesn't update, world map city centering doesn't work, random delays and sometimes a page doesn't switch, etc. And on the forum it is necessary to "mark all posts read" from time to time or it will stop tracking unread posts correctly (probably an issue with the limited amount of info that can be stored in a cookie, which is just one reason why storing it in cookies instead of database sessions is a terrible idea--the other major reason is that every time you clear cookies or switch browsers or computers the info is lost or left in an incorrect/incoherent state between browsers). ------------- "Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now." - HonoredMule |
Posted By: Sister Nikki
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 14:04
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Tora your coffee cup is great :) I dont know if you could make a whole set of emoticons??? (If you want you may contact me in game). lol Creature i know that you have signed in for the emoticons :) I do understand you Beri and in some cases i agree with you. I do not understand people saying "if you do not like the style of the game then Leave" either they responce personally or they dont care about the game. Now i do not understand how the emoticons have a copyright but i can understand the reason which made you to take off the yahoo emoticons still what Tora is saying is right. It seems our whole life will be copyrighted :( |
Posted By: Createure
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 14:09
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tbh if I actually make a less silly post on this topic: I'd say it is nice to have personal touches in Illy like their own set of emoticons. Just copying the mundane widespread ones from yahoo or wherever is frankly just lame - regardless of copyright issues or whatever. Ok so now we have Illy's own personal emoticon set. I'll admit that they perhaps need some work to make them more distinguishable and interesting but honestly with something as subjective as this you can't expect it to be perfect the first try - small steps people. |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 14:12
+1 |
Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 14:15
+1
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Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 14:38
superlol!
Well said. |
Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 14:40
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Coming up with original emoticons is positive progress. I even like that they are (in-game) race-specific. I appreciate the effort that has been made to move forward--making original emoticons has been on my todo list for Butler for a long time. I don't even like the Yahoo emoticons. They're oversized, look like plastic, and in many cases misrepresent the expression of the original text (for example :/ should not be translated as a confused face but one with passive/accepting dissatisfaction, and a lot of the reaction-to-humor faces have the wrong magnitude of reaction). I should even be happy that other people's dislike of the new emoticons has driven more people to use Butler. :P What's more, because Illyriad now supports a much smaller set, making my own original emoticons is now cut down to a more feasible task and can move up in priority on my roadmap. But there are two serious problems, and neither of them is being addressed except in a dismissive and at times even hostile tone. The new emoticons are simply illegible in their primary purpose. Their appearance screams 90% race and gender, with a tiny etching of emotion in the middle. The size is appropriate, but the level of detail renders them unusable. Turning off the emoticons is a sloppy and minimal-effort solution at best to the real issue. Having none at all is barely better. Anyone who plays Illyriad has to accept that fixes/improvements/bug fixes will happen whenever-and-don't-hold-your-breath-because-it-might-be-a-while. But we'd sure like to hear that the new emoticons will be updated for usability some day. Focusing on short-term non-solutions just tells us you don't care. Going back to pure text isn't a fix. An equally huge issue is one that seems to have become a recurring theme. Why insist on forcing players to constantly gender-identify themselves? Rill already did a good job of explaining why that's a bad thing, so I won't belabor the point. What matters here is that player X cannot choose to stop broadcasting gender. Instead, it is up to every other player in the game to stop noticing it. That is patently backwards, and why there's no reasonable way to support optionally gender-specific emoticons (nor is it appropriate to mandate them). ------------- "Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now." - HonoredMule |
Posted By: SunStorm
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 15:18
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Why can't people just go "old school" on the icons (^_^). Really - I have been doing it all along...you should join me. (:P)
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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 16:12
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Again, I apologize for beating a dead horse here. I think there have been some really great points made on both sides of the fence. I understand if you don't like the emoticons because you think they are unreadable. I, after using them for some time on the test realm, do not find that to be entirely the case. But that is a statement of personal opinion, that is really neither wrong nor right. I understand if you don't like the emotes because you don't like the color green, think they are ugly, think they have too much detail, just really really love yellow circles or whatever other personal reason you have for disliking the graphics for them. As I said, they may be re-addressed in the future (or may not). But even then if we were to re-do them, there will be those who do not like the "new new" emotes and this vicious cycle would begin again. That is not a dismissal of a concern, it is just a clear and practical statement based on years of experience in design and knowing that you just can't please everyone. We do our best, but you can't. If the upcoming option to uncheck the use of racial emotes is not a good enough solution for you, use the plugins provided by players for different emotes. This should be a win-win for everyone. With relation to the gender of avatars showing in the emotes, this has absolutely no relationship to the gender of the person sitting behind the keyboard. Just as all of our players who choose to play orcs should not be concerned that people think they are green in real life based on their emoticons. This is just another representation of the avatar you chose when you signed up for the game. It is not meant to be a representation of you as a human being. This concern makes the huge assumption that someone should feel uncomfortable or unsafe in our game based off of the gender of the avatar they've chosen. I hope you'll understand why I (female gamer, woman in the video games industry and primary moderator of our community) might find that a little bit frustrating. In other words, rather than being concerned about a potential imagined increase in sexual harassment based on showing gender in emoticons, report all cases of actual sexual harassment and there will be no problem with the emoticons showing gender. Creating a safe environment in our game for all players is a top priority, and pretending that gender (both in real life and in our game avatars) doesn't exist isn't really a very good solution from where I sit. Luna
------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 18:22
There's no doubt in my mind you didn't want to force people to shout out their gender in chat but that doesn't mean that's not what you're doing. While it's entirely possible or a male to play a female character or a female to play a male character and thus people should always take the profile gender with a grain of salt, more times than not, they don't. They see the male or female picture on your profile or now, your emoticon and they assume you're either or. Something that takes less than a second during the creation of your account instantly defines what gender you will be perceived as.
Given there are still members who for more than a year have had bouts of racist and/or sexist outbursts on the forums or in chat, that eventually drove some people away from the from either the forums or GC altogether, I have to say that I don't really take that comment too seriously. There have be far too many people who I would have marked as BoS (ban on sight) ages ago that are still free to play the game. As such it's no wonder that female gamers don't feel comfortable telling people that they are female. I don't really care about the emoticons themselves, I don't use them but I think it's absolutely ridiculous that those who do use them are forced to display their profile gender to everyone in chat. I actually wouldn't mind an option to change the gender of your account or choose to remain "unidentified" if I so choose but that gets into the topic of gender identity which is probably better for another topic.
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Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 18:41
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It doesn't matter what gender anyone thinks you are in RL, that is my point. You should be treated with respect regardless, therefore showing a female or male emote is irrelevant. There is no new issue created by the emoticons that didn't exist already. And the global chat and forum rules cover these things very well already. The assertion that the solution to this is to take away gender options or display of any sort in our game is absurd and taking things to a logical extreme. And If you doubt my intentions as your community manager to help provide a safe and welcoming space online, (not only is that wildly disrespectful of me and my work) I frankly don't know how to help you. Luna ------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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Posted By: nightfury
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 18:42
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I understand copyright issue with emoticons now after SC posted. However I do not understand why they cant be changed to make them easier to recognize GM's did excellent jobs in issuing images for research... I know they are limited by pixel sizes for emotes but as h? directors said current emotes are first step and i do feel illy GM's shud make second drop of emotes soon which makes current emotes easy to recognize, they did all the hardwork to develop these I cant imagine them not putting efforts to improve them. emotes are more important than research images... please let your artist focus on them ... sorry if i hurt somebody.
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Posted By: nightfury
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 18:57
sorry to say but as a community manager I would like ...you to listen to us carefully and raise our concerns to dev's even when they may not be nothing or maybe u cant do anything about it. I find it bad in taste to SC clarify topic in a better way to us than you do. I do find your assertive language LOUD enough to feel hurt. I loved GM's coming out in open on GC to speak with us, now a days its very less and i shud say i would love to see SC and TC out open many times which may mean getting some wrong estimates but then hey they kept us interested here
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Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 19:09
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Guys. Emotes. Perspective. ------------- "ouch...best of luck." HonoredMule |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 20:32
My point is that it's not a perfect world and just because it shouldn't matter does not mean that it does not. It may not be creating an entirely new issue but it's also not helping one that already exists. As much as I'd love for the game to have an environment where no one judged you based on your gender that's simply not the case and adding a feature that potentially makes a problem all that much worse is just silly. Furthermore, if you really do think my gender is irrelevant why did they make the emoticons gender specific in the first place? People have already voiced concerns about their profile pictures being a bad representation of who they are, why make it worse with the emoticons? And at no point did I say that you should take away the gender options. I said we should have the option to either change it from male, female or not given. Which I think is a completely fair option given it's one that is allowed on these very forums. In fact I find it very hypocritical of you to call me on that when you're planning to introduce an option to turn off emotes all together, something that would be very similar to turning off gender identity all together (though only if you want to). I do apologize for bringing up the racist and sexist comments thing. This isn't the place for it and while I do think more could have been done in several particular situations, you weren't around for those either. I don't doubt you're intentions, though I do think you have a tenancy to make changes without thinking about how they'll be received or thinking about the bigger picture but that's an entirely different topic.
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Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 21:08
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This is a feature in the game to help draw us more into the game. Since you picked a female human, you are therefor a female human on the game. So you should smile like a female human. You picked a male orc, you are now a male orc on the game. You should frown like a male orc. Get used to it. You picked a female elf and your a male in real life. Well guess what, you are now a female elf on the game. (Though I think you knew that when you first picked a female elf as your character.) So guess what, while you play you can smile like a female elf. I remember back about 50 some days ago when this feature was not in the game. Was funny how some guys would say I'm a female when I did :P. Some even hit on me. But the funny part was, we didn't have this feature back then. Some how, they were able to figure out I was a female elf. Though joke was on them, since I'm really a male human in real life. |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 21:44
So men and women smile differently? I don't think so. You use an emote to get across some kind of emotion. So if you're sad you do =( to emphasize that because words are so emotionless. Gender however has absolutely nothing to do with that. That's why traditionally emoticons are gender-less. Gender is completely irrelevant to emotion.
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Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 21:55
Yes we both smile the same, but on Illyriad men do not have hair. Women have hair. :P |
Posted By: SunStorm
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 23:41
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This whole thread = (~_~)
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2012 at 00:49
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Luna, the court system in the United States has multiple cases attempting to distinguish what is or isn't harassment or discrimination based on gender (or race, etc.). These things are difficult to determine in real life. If it's not blatant disregard for basic code of conduct or decency, then I'm not going to report it, and I would expect if I did report it you would probably not act on it. Even if it's just a simple expectation that I will be less competent at (fill in the blank) because I am female, I would prefer not to encourage that reaction by shoving my gender in people's face all the time. Sure, it's better for people just to get to know me and realize that I (fill in the blank) as well as anyone else but I'm really not particularly good at (that other thing), but that would only work in a perfect world, which Illy, as wonderful as it is, is not. One of the great things about online gaming is that we can experiment with different ways of being. For some of us, that includes de-emphasizing our gender so that we don't have to conform to gender roles -- or on the contrary, emphasizing gender more or even gender-crossing. The point is, we want the freedom to do as we wish without having gender come up so constantly, unless we bring it up ourselves. And the most important point is, gender is NOT related to expressions of emotion. Men are happy, women are happy, the smile represents this. Men are sad, women are sad, the frown represents that. Making men and women smile differently artificially emphasizes a societal distinction many of us would prefer to escape in a fantasy game. The idea of having emoticons that fit the game environment is a fun one and a neat idea. But until gender characteristics of our avatars begin to impact game mechanics (which I hope it won't!), I hope you will decide to respect the desire of many to control to the greatest degree possible their gender identification or lack thereof.
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Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2012 at 00:58
Pfft I have no feelings!
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2012 at 00:59
Then you won't need to use emoticons, will you?
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Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2012 at 01:05
noo.. |
Posted By: Cerex Flikex
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2012 at 05:46
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I did not expect this thread to keep going as it has. The GMs already replied about what they plan to do with chat. To make an option to view the emoticons or not. I enjoy the fact that they are race and gender defined. That some people don't like it, well just one of the many reasons some people are not happy with them. Can this end now though? Because really, what else can be said?
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Posted By: abstractdream
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2012 at 06:02
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Reading this thread and watching the behavior in GC, I have gotten some serious insight into the way so many citizens of Illy play the game. Thanks for that, but this has gotten a bit tedious by now. Can we go ahead and move on to the next subject of interest? ------------- |
Posted By: GM Luna
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2012 at 06:15
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Agreed. I believe all parties have said their piece and this has gotten way off topic and is going around in circles. I'm sorry for my part in derailing the discussion. Closing this thread now. Luna ------------- GM Luna | Illyriad Community Manager | community@illyriad.co.uk
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