Aggression against Calaquendi member
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3443
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 05:05
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Aggression against Calaquendi member
Posted By: Diomedes
Subject: Aggression against Calaquendi member
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2012 at 12:39
| Following an unprovoked attack by a member of Amor Dey Rey on biscix of the Calaquendi, a number of messages were sent to that member and the alliance leader seeking an apology and restoration of the stolen resources. Since nothing has been offered by way of compensation during the ensuing many days, we feel compelled to take very limited punitive action against the individual who caused this upset, and trust that the matter will now be at an end. |
Replies:
Posted By: Mona Lisa
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2012 at 20:28
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.. do let us know how it all turns out. Mona Lisa Rook of nCrow
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Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2012 at 21:26
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Since you posted this on the forums you feel the need to safeguard your alliances retaliations towards this player, so I will ask a question of my own. You say this "we feel compelled to take very limited punitive action against the individual" What actions are you taking? Furthermore, what is the individuals population and the population of the member of your alliance that he pursued aggressive actions towards?
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Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2012 at 21:32
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I don't know why you posted this on the forums, unless you thought it would cause an upset in the first place... -------------  |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 02:50
| I appreciate the effort made to communicate. Might not be necessary in every instance, but good to know. |
Posted By: Diomedes
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 03:29
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Thanks for the comments. It was not necessary to post the info, but is a precaution against the potential to cause mischief to the good name of the Calaquendi in GC. The aggressor member is very small (as indeed is his alliance), but because of their apparent inability to effectively communicate with Calacr, we sent a small number of thieves to recoup the losses taken. We trust that Amor Dey Rey will be encouraged to communicate openly with other alliances in the future, and that they educate their members on the finer points of the game. We wish them well, and hope they take their rightful place in Illy - no further action will be taken against them unless they carry out another attack
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Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 03:32
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So you want people to educate others on pacifism by hitting them with thieves? |
Posted By: Silent/Steadfast
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 04:26
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Obviously you are missing the point here EF. The thieves are being sent to educate the player that pacifism concerning CalCr is a good idea by hitting him with thieves. ------------- "Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM) "SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM) |
Posted By: Bartozzi
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 04:40
| It looks to me that the thieves were being sent to Recoup the losses. How is that unfair? |
Posted By: Gilthoniel
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 11:40
No. Quite the opposite :) We have sent mails to the player concerned and also to the leader of his alliance but we have had no reply. The Calaquendi would prefer to resolve this issue peaceably and by negotiation and even now would appeal to the alliance to answer our mails so that we can sort this out without any fuss. However our alliance will not allow others to attack or steal from our cities. If we are unable to resolve this issue by common sense then we reserve the right to recover our losses. |
Subatoi wrote:Posted By: Createure
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 12:05
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eye for an eye... ...eventually everyone is blind. |
Posted By: Taelin
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 12:30
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I don't see what all the fuss is about: Alliances are entitled to protect their own; you could say that's what they are there for. If you thieve from an alliance member and then no one responds to communications seeking a resolution you get a more concrete message, some people might have responded more aggressively... the relative sizes of the players and alliances seem beside the point. As for posting - seems a sensible precaution to get your version of events out there first.
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Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 15:12
Seems odd coming from the white flag toting GP's. I thought it was instructed to all new players that this was a *friendly* community. It's a *non-hostile* community that takes pride in being such. So if the community is truly non hostile, or in another word, lacking enmity. Then why do situations like these occur, perhaps the player in question is on a business trip? Or the alliance leader, or both. Perhaps waiting for a reply on their part would be *better* ?
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 18:48
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The message that is communicated to new players is that Illy is a friendly place for new players, but that attacking others has consequences. This would be an example of one of those consequences. I don't think that anyone has ever implied that one can attack others with impunity as long as one is sufficiently small. Indeed, I have stated the opposite on numerous occasions. I have seen members of the community use restraint in the methods they use to respond to provocations, in particular from smaller players. In this case, they are responding with a round of diplomatic units, not with sieges. Seems like it's consistent with the Illy ethos as I describe it to newer players. Of course not everyone sees Illy the way I do, but I'm not sure whose views you are disagreeing with. Certainly they are not mine.
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Posted By: blazing arrow
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 19:14
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I agree with Taelin and Rill.. Responsible of CalCrow members to apprise of he situation lest you wuld have seen a smaller player/alliance crying their hearts out to the world branding themselves as the 'victim' and CalCrow as the 'agressors" As for sending thieves in return to recover the losses I say its a fair decision to not only educate a smaller player but discourage people frm doing what they feel like in their starting days...
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Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 19:15
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Which if it is acceptable means there was no real need for this to be put on the forums. This was put on the forums so if it developed into "this alliance is attacking me helllppp*" this alliance here could say "here is our side". So they are worried that their actions, hostile as they are could be perceived as hostile by the general global community and have to back down or pay reparations etc. * which of course would not happen if there wasn't a large broadcast of pacifism in GC to new players with the promise "If you are attacked we'll help you" |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 19:39
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I don't know of anyone saying to new players-- "If you attack someone as a newish player, don't worry, no one can attack you back". I personally would have reduced the town to rubble. I find CalCrows actions as quite restrained. |
Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 19:42
| Next time I see it in GC I'll copy the log Kumo |
Posted By: Thatkindaorc
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 19:50
| An unprovoked attack was met with a proportionate and limited (and non-military) response. Theft was met with proportionate recovery. Objecting to this sort of thing makes you sound unreasonable, EF, I think CalCrow did the responsible, rational thing. |
Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 19:56
| It was placed onto the forums, placement often the forums will often spark debate. I questioned what I deemed appropriate and pertaining to this topic. |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 20:16
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This is exactly why it should have stayed within the alliance and off the forums. ------------- |
Posted By: Thatkindaorc
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 23:16
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I think letting people know why an alliance is doing something, when faced with uncommunicative or unreasonable conflicts, is perfectly valid. It's there so that if it comes up in GC that CalCrow was thieving from a small player, they can point to this thread and go, "Yes, we stole from him, that's why, it's all out there in the open." "It was on the forums so it should be argued about" isn't a valid defense for making an unreasonable argument. |
Posted By: M6 Redneck
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2012 at 00:40
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Actions have consequences. I personally think in the thieves case the consequences are light. As to the consequences making our intentions public, if it has to be the braying of farm yard creatures - so be it. M6
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Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2012 at 01:09
I've never taken something to the forums before and I've been playing for nearly two years now. While I think some cases it's necessary I don't think something as small as this is. Small matters such as this are best kept within the alliance, otherwise you have people arguing on the forums about whether or not it's ok and that's not really worth the effort for something like this.
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Posted By: Luthien Telrunya
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2012 at 02:06
Both of you have valid points. It has been discussed on whether or not this was a forum worthy offence. In the end was was seen as a #7 alliance taking action against a 4 member alliance. Most people will believe what ever they hear first. If the smaller alliance had come out and said that we had attacked them un-provoked that could have caused a lot of trouble before the dust settled. But then again, nothing may have happened and we could have avoided this nice little conversation all together. Now some of you have suggested that we wait longer, but we have waited 15 days for a reply and have not gotten one. The leader of the alliance did not stay in communication with us. And even after we threatened to take action still sat by and did nothing. All he would have had to do was send some resource to help compensate for what was lost and all would have been fine, but he did not do this. It clearly states that we are a peaceful alliance but we will not tolerate anyone who messes with one of our members. Newer players need to be careful about who they "practice" on. I understand the excitement of having your 1st diplo or 1st army, but you can't just send them out to anyone you feel like. I'm done for now
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Posted By: Subatoi
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2012 at 02:28
| Man the harpoons I suppose. |
Posted By: Stort
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 00:08
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One of the attractions of Illyriad is the self-regulating umbrella that has evolved, namely GC? Without any formal mandate it can protect our new players from bullying and allow them to build up, way beyond the protection period afforded by the game itself. This is what makes Illy stand out amongst other games. However, because of this, GC can also become a Kangaroo Court where simple silly acts or incorrect assumptions lead to a public trial, where uninformed comment spreads like wildfire and suddenly a player's reputation or an Alliance's reputation are tainted. Conscious of this The Calaquendi have made a decision that even small issues where we may retaliate for a transgression, will be openly and honestly posted to the diplomatic forum. Mistakes happen, often by newbs, sometimes by accident and as an alliance we will try to resolve the issue as fairly as possible. we contact the player concerned and if no response, the leader of the alliance. If no response is received, we WILL act to recover any losses on behalf of our members. By posting this upfront in the forum, then we can avoid the scenario of 'big alliance attacking a small player or small alliance'. Big or small, we will resort to force only as a last resort. We will look to take back what was lost or stolen and without punitive damages. Afterall, what use is an alliance that does not assist its members and deliver on the promise of security inferred by being a part of an alliance? |
Posted By: Bonaparta
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 11:24
| Very restrained response to obviously aggressive act. |
Posted By: ULYSSEUS
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 08:52
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Sometimes I think situations here in Illy land are way over dissected. It has gotten to the point where everyone is paralyzed to make a move for fear of upsetting the Illy community as a whole. I understand the need for posting this situation. I have experienced first hand what happens when even the rightful actions of an alliance are broadcast in global chat. The lynch mob goes into full swing, with no clear idea of the facts involved or the situation at hand. Not always but a good percentage of the time it seems like the person who cries loudest in global wins the day. An alliance retaliating after suffering an attack or attacks should be expected without exception. It should not have to be validated by the community. As to the level of response, well I have found a little overkill is more of a deterrent than a little underkill. If all diplomatic avenues have been truly exhausted then you do what you have to do to resolve the situation. Least ways that what my old Gunnery Sgt used to advise. But hey, to each his own... ------------- Some men die young, some men die old, but all men die. |