My first thought on reading the new code of conduct and rules was that you guys must be joking.

Since this only specifies "in game", do these rules apply to Alliance Chat as well?

Are you trying to say, that we're not allowed to discuss religion or politics in our own private chats?  In private IGMs?  Or does "in game" really mean in Global Chat?  If so, then that should be specified.

Your post says that I can say what I want in private. Thus, I am allowed to break the rules.  Unless someone complains about it?  So, if my alliance determines that it's okay to have a conversation about politics, that's okay .. As long as nobody complains about it?  Since the majority of the players in the game don't partake in chat, how am I even able to clarify if everyone is okay with it?  

If my alliance has rules that contradict these global code of conduct, that apply specifically to the private conversations, is that acceptable?  As long as the players agree to the alliance specific rules, implicitly, by staying in the alliance?  Otherwise, I really can't feel free to set my tone, since there's no way to ensure that all 99 other alliance members are okay with it.

Some of these rules are obviously things that shouldn't be said regardless of the venue, but some of them are very draconian.  Not posting personal information is certainly a good recommendation, but how is it that it is against the rules for me to post my name?

On the topic of illegal activities, my point is, illegal in what jurisdiction?  This is an international game.  In certain countries it is illegal for a woman to go out in public without being covered.  Therefore, if I mention that I plan to go out to dinner with my wife, wearing a sleeveless dress.  That is illegal in certain parts of the "real world".  Or are we talking about illegal in the UK where the game is based?  Again, I don't know where in the world all of my game mates are located (in fact, according to the rules, they can't divulge that personal information), so I can't possibly know what may or may not be illegal there.

Other interesting laws, that we need to be careful not to mention going forward.  http://whoartnow.hubpages.com/hub/101-Strangest-Laws-From-Around-The-World

If you ever played a game like World of Warcraft or Eve Online, you have already agreed to practically identical terms and conditions (and many more besides).

Of course, if this is the first and only MMO you have ever played then these very standard Terms & Conditions may come as a surprise.  If Illyriad is not the first MMO you have ever played, then perhaps you have never read the Terms and Conditions of any of the other ones you have played?

Regarding the definition of "illegal" and "unlawful" in terms of Jurisdiction; the company and servers reside in the United Kingdom and so have to abide by UK and relevant EU laws.  However, the definition (as is the same with all other MMOs) is further extensable at the sole discretion of Illyriad Games Limited as to what is and what is not "unlawful".

As Luna rightly says, however, these aren't up for debate.  I'm simply drawing your attention that (regardless of whether you think they're draconian or Orwellian) these are entirely standard Terms of Service in the MMO industry.

Regards,

SC

1.  It is not OK to harass or abuse another player in any venue, including global chat, private chat, alliance chat, in-game mail, player profiles in-game or on the forum, forum posts or forum mail.

2.  It is similarly not OK to advocate, conspire to commit or commit illegal activities in any of those venues.

3.  It is permissible to exchange contact information such as e-mail or Facebook information in any venue EXCEPT global chat and forum posts.  It is similarly permissible to discuss real-world politics and any topics other than those that are abusive or illegal in venues other than global chat and forum posts.

If my understanding of these rules is correct, I don't see where there is a problem.

I know we're not supposed to discuss the code of conduct, but I will observe that trolling is often in the eye of the beholder, and any attempt to regulate trolling in any but the most light-handed manner may serve to stifle discourse and result in perceptions of favoritism (even if those perceptions are inaccurate).

The community actually does a reasonably good job at managing its own trolls, and I personally hope that moderators show a great deal of restraint in locking threads, deleting threads, etc.  -- including the ones I don't like or consider trollish.  We are for the most part adults, and treating us like children is just going to make us more likely to act like children.  This is not intended as a criticism of anyone, just an observation that I hope will be considered.

This.

I've been wanting to /salute the GM's for quite a while for letting threads evolve and run their own courses (sp?) without deleting posts or locking the threads early.

This is one of the great things about the Illy forums (in my personal opinion). When forum moderators get too "excited" you will all of a sudden have threads with posts and responses that don't mean anything anymore because earlier posts were deleted. Please let us keep this "freedom" on the Illy boards. It's so refreshing!

Just my 2 cents.

inflammatory

name-calling

impersonating fellow players

Public posting of private messages between fellow players

Repeated or bothersome begging for resources in Global Chat is discouraged

The above items, if actually enforced, will greatly change Illy.

The resource begging being simply discouraged seems out of place for this Code of Conduct.

Mails are routinely posted on the forum as part of the politics and bitter sea discussions.  This is no longer allowed.   EDIT: Just saw GM Luna's new post on removing the Bitter Sea topic section altogether.  So, these are big changes to PvP.  May we expect Factions to go live soon to enhance the PvE experience in Illy?  Killing NPCs gets boring.  Tournaments heavily favor larger players and alliances.

Global Chat frequently has name-calling and inflammatory comments.  Sometimes these lead to in-game battles.  This is no longer allowed. 

I think GM Luna will be very busy enforcing these rules.

Are we even allowed to joke about it?

I don't have a problem with the intent of the rules, it's the WORDING.  Especially the jurisdictional issues regarding discussion of illegal activities.

Did you know that in parts of Colorado, it's illegal to own a pet?  So would someone on Global Chat be against the Code of Conduct if they discuss their dog or cat?

It's also illegal to do any 'work' on Sunday in Israel, and the definition of 'work' has extended to the use of ANY machinery.  Does that mean that players in Global Chat are not allowed to discuss the fact that they are, indeed, playing Illyriad, since in order to do so they would have to be AT THE COMPUTER.  (In fact, even posting in Global on a sunday would be commtiting a crime in that jurisdiciton.)

Also, the phrase 'In the game' diverges from the INTENT of the rule.   GM Luna has clearly said that GMs basically don't care what goes on in AC, yet the rules say 'in the game' not 'in global chat or private mail'.  The intent clearly seems to contradict the wording.

/me sighs

It is very simple, very clear, and your reductio ad absurdam non-argument is self-evidently ridiculous.

We, Illyriad Games Ltd, are a UK-based company with UK-based servers. We have to comply with the laws of the United Kingdom, and we have to enforce those laws as they are applicable to us.  The jurisdiction for legal matters concerning Illyriad is the United Kingdom, under English & Welsh law, and this is the jurisdiction you have agreed to submit yourself to under the Terms & Conditions of Illyriad, to which you agreed when you began playing the game.

You are a private individual, and you have residency in some country and jurisdiction in the world.  Your compliance with your laws and jurisdiction is a matter for you to follow, and is not something we are required to, or indeed can possibly enforce.

Where those laws are in conflict, the laws of the United Kingdom are the ones that are applied as regards our responsibilities as a corporation to uphold the laws that we operate under. 

For example, it might be fine to under your local laws of (eg) "free speech" to say exactly what you like about any topic to anyone.  However, under the laws of the United Kingdom we are not permitted to allow our servers to store or transmit (for example) content that could be construed as a "Hate Crime" or "Incitement to Racial Hatred".  So we'll remove the content that breaches the laws of the UK, and we will comply with any and all requests from duly authorised officers of the law and courts of the United Kingdom.

Really not difficult to understand, Koragg.

Regards,

SC

Well, it is generally an entirely pointless and arbitrary discussion, as it is also all tempered by the over-riding caveat '... and any behaviour, conduct or activity that we, at our sole discretion, choose to deem inappropriate...'.  Again, this is very, very standard MMO/site Ts and Cs.

What we're not interested in doing is having armchair lawyers coming to us and saying "... but you kicked me out of the game for cheating - multi-accounting is not in the statutes of the United Kingdom".  

Even worse than that are those who will choose to skirt around the edge of common-sense acceptable behaviour in the belief that they're "protected" in some way because they haven't broken any written-down rule.

If you ever find yourself thinking "I wonder if this breaks any of the laws of the United Kingdom?" or "I wonder if this constitutes acceptable behaviour" or "I wonder if the GMs will get angry with me for saying X?" then you're probably on the wrong side of acceptable behaviour and the code of conduct already.

Regards,

SC

At your own peril, Harry.

At your own peril.

Actually, my concern is quite the opposite.  I'm afraid of the definitions being 'too' loose and that something that is otherwise of no special problem could be interpreted by what IS written down as being against the ToC.

For example, "posts of a sexually explicit, inflammatory or violently threatening nature".  If I were to tell someone "I'm sending an army to kill all your military units." that would be violently threatening, because I'm engaging a military action and killing people.  Yes, the intent is violent threats TO THE PLAYER's person, and not the in game civilians, but that's not what's written.

The problem here is that you'll get petitions from armchair lawyers who'll say "He did this and this is against the ToC" and yet they're really harmless (Kiltov's signature, for example, which alludes to kidnapping).  And yet if you ignore the petition saying 'oh this is harmless' then you'll be accused of not following the letter of your own ToC.

GM_LUNA wrote: @Harry Just use common sense, please.

Albert Einstein is quoted as saying "Common sense is a collection of predjudices aquited by age 18."  The inference there is that everyone's 'common sense' is different, and therefore, not really very common at all

Exactly, I don't want to be in a position where I'm afraid to post in GC or the forums because someone might take offence at something I wrote and finds it to *technically* be in violation of the poorly written ToS.  (I rarely post in GC as it is, and only just started using the forums despite playing Illy for months)

I actually have a personality disorder where I'm already usually afraid to speak because I tend to say the wrong thing and insult someone unintentionally, I don't want to have to be afraid of being unintentionally in violation of a ToS too by some contrived reason because they are not specific enough.