VALAR seeking terms
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Politics & Diplomacy
Forum Description: If you run an alliance on Elgea, here's where you should make your intentions public.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=2508
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 04:21
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: VALAR seeking terms
Posted By: SirVulture
Subject: VALAR seeking terms
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 18:47
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ChristinaZah asked for this to be posted on her behalf because she does not have a forums profile. OPEN REQUEST TO THE LEADERS OF THE 6-ALLIANCE COALITION AT WAR WITH VALAR From what the general buzz of general chat and various forum statements, it seems like at least some of the current 6 alliances waging war with VALAR actually have some specific goals in mind with this war, but those goals have not been made public to the general Valar membership, if they were ever clearly communicated to any of the Valar leaders at all. This is basically an open request for TERMS OF HOSTILITIES CESSATION (and if possible, reasons for why those terms are needed - many Valar members do not actually know what the alleged transgressions even are). There were allegations of "harboring trolls" (please specify names and preferably also brief reasons) and "inappropriate leadership" (please name all those, and also preferably some brief reasons why). If such terms are ever presented officially, if nobody else will do it first, then I will personally present them to the entire alliance (and if not specifically forbidden, to the general public too), so we can have a vote between Valar members on whether to accept those terms wholesale or not (and any people dissatisfied with the end result can just leave).
I am sending this section as a message to all 6 alliance leaders and a few of the other more notable people involved. END OF OPEN REQUEST |
Replies:
Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 19:03
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to bad you are not the guy in charge. negotiation like those can not be made if not whit the weary Velar leadership. ( in my opinion) -------------  my words on this forum are from me alone. DLords official words only come from HighKing Belargyle |
Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 19:06
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atleast its a chance to show our willingness to actually offer peace at terms. ------------- The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies. Napoleon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 20:17
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I suggest that leaders avoid posting specific peace terms or demands. Instead, let's start with our common interests. Such as ... people want security, a place for new players to grow, ability to resolve conflicts ... stuff like that. Let's start by finding the interests that we have in common, then look at the areas of disagreement. Terms can evolve from this discussion. Well done to CristinaZah for coming forward and opening the dialogue. /me is not pretending to be a leader of anything /me is just trying to offer some suggestions based on experience resolving conflicts
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Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 20:29
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I need to see Azreal's authorization that Cristina speaks on his behalf. Otherwise, this is just another propaganda stall tactic. Also, I note the request to rehash the factual underpinnings of this war. There is no further need for that. Now is the time to look to the future, not the past. Cease-fire has no place in these negotiations. It only allows the weakened party time to regroup and rebuild. Which only prolongs the conflict. I think this is complete ruse.
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Posted By: Uno
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 20:50
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TD, you probably didn't read the message with the attention it deserved (yeah, I know, it's safer for the reputation of the aggressors to continue claim that it was Valar to want this war, although it wasn't them to declare). ChristinaZah doesn't look like she is speaking for Azreil or the Valar. She is trying to broker a peace or truce or whatever. In short she says "tell me your reasons for war since for at least some alliances we don't even know what they are and what would be your terms for ending hostilities, I will present them to the whole alliance -if none else of Valar will- and see what will be the reactions". Note that conditions for cessation of hostilities isn't a cease fire IMHO since cease fire is just an agreement with no conditions other than ... cease fire. ------------- Eréc of Caer Uisc King of Dyfneint Indomiti Alliance |
Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 20:51
I can answer this clearly from one players perspective. The_Dude named two players in the accusation. Then he proceeded to define trolls as "Troublemakers" which is a pretty broad definition, as his "No Mercy" approach to conflict only adds fuel to the fire and can easily be described as "Troublemaking" But, hey, stones, glass houses. Anyway, the court is in session, there are the two players he named. 1.) Myself. 2.) ATH Whether The_Dude intends to speak on behalf of all the coalition of 6 remains to be seen.
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SirVulture wrote:Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:04
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I do NOT speak for anyone but me, SJ. There is no "court". You have admitted that you want the freedom to fight any alliance anytime for no reason than your own pleasure. VALAR championed you on that position. That would be the precipitating event (i.e., straw that broke the camel's back) for the current war. That's troublemaker enough in my book. The "no mercy" thing is some fiction you created from whole cloth - a specialty of yours, I have come to learn. Uno, no serious negotiations ever occur publicly. If there are VALAR members that want out of the war, the first step is the easiest...you will find it on your alliance page, the button is labeled "Quit Alliance". If you are unwilling to quit, then you have chosen to follow your leaders. Which means more blood.
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Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:05
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Regards Harmless (?). We're open to dialogue with ChristinaZah but, indicative of Valar, disappointed (but not surprised) at the continued absence of diplomacy from Azreil and/or Darkone. Jude: To assist you in your attempt to grasp the concept of 'Trolling';
Let me know if you require me to cut and paste any more of your quotes if you wish for futher examples. (<--- So's that) Capiche'? (<----And that)  ------------- "ouch...best of luck." HonoredMule |
Posted By: bow locks
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:07
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I have no authority to speak on behalf of my leadership either. However, history tells us that leaders act with a mandate from the people, whether that mandate is forced or willingly given is another matter. If you do not like your leadership there are, in essence, two options; a) replace them, (remove their mandate) b) leave. (undermine / reduce their mandate). if you cant do a) I recommend b) most other stuff is only fluff. Bow
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:10
| TD, I have a lot of respect for you, but I welcome any overture from Valar members interested in peace. Let's keep up the dialogue. Thanks to Llyorn for acknowledging Cristina's request. |
Posted By: tallica
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:13
Agreed, I'm getting tired of people from Valar coming into GC claiming ignorance and asking why Valar is under attack. If they don't know why their alliance is under attack then they probably shouldn't stay in that alliance. If Valar is truly seeking peace, GC or these forums is not the place for it. Terms and discussions should take place in mail between Valar leadership and Coalition leadership, unless the Coalition chooses a single person to represent them all. This war isn't just going to end because. The Coalition has a motive and a goal, and it is not necessary to bring that forward to us, the public. If any members on either side of the war do not wish to participate, then I suggest you take TDs advice and quit your alliance. Otherwise hush up, suck it up, put up your dukes and fight to the end. </thread> |
Posted By: Uno
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:26
LOL, ok this is getting hilarious. First everyone likes to yell to the 4 winds that no word of peace will ever come from the Valar, but when it does everyone rushes to say that it doesn't count, for a number of reasons (valid or not, is it important?). While I agree that this is in no way an official offer for negotiations, it was a good chance for coalitions to show they are seriously pursuing something and ultimately a peace, but I don't see anything remotely comparable to what you all have been claiming. Anyways TD, both declarations of war and peace treaties and sometimes even part of negotiations occur publicly. Open a freaking History book and you will perhaps realize it. Your claims about declarations of intents belonging to the past and being uninteresting at this point, while the war is ongoing, border the pathetic. If you guys intend to nominate yourselves as the defenders of Illyriad gameplay you will better try and be transparent instead of suggesting everything should be kept secret and treating this whole issue as your "thing with Azreil and a few other guys". "I will only speak with Azreil". Bla bla bla. Which if you finally start to be honest, it is exactly what this all is about: a showdown with Azreil. So far the peace solutions provided to the members of Valar are: 1) Overthrow Azreil (technically impossibile AFAIK) 2) Quit the alliance What if they all quit the alliance and found one named Order of the Vaiar? Will it be all fun and games? You guys aren't being serious and most of all aren't being honest. ------------- Eréc of Caer Uisc King of Dyfneint Indomiti Alliance |
Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:39
That's a legitimate statement, not a trolling attempt. You don't get to simply label every statement you disagree with as 1.) Troublemaking or 2.) Trolling. THIS is trolling.
See how this works? |
Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:48
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dear UNO noone of the coolition has said anything about not wanting to talk. i wish you would learn the diffrence between valar and the coalition and vallar supporters and coalitionsupporters. now to make sure noone is confused jude is a valar supporter TD is a coalition supporter. the coalition itself has said nothing to indicate they are not talking. or not taking this serious. ------------- The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies. Napoleon Bonaparte |
Posted By: SirVulture
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:49
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I must say I was hoping slightly more good would come from this than has so far. One of the primary grievances I have heard coalition leadership complain about Valar is their lack of diplomacy, yet when a member of Valar attempts diplomacy it is summarily dismissed. As CZ pointed out in general chat, you can't really expect Azreil to be open to diplomacy when one of the few stated goals of the coalition is his removal. I'd also like to think that the coalition leadership, in an attempt to make the game safer for sandbox players, wouldn't attempt to impose such harsh conditions on Valar that they would need to be kept secret from the general public whom both sides seem to be courting in a PR battle. These thoughts represent merely my own opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Academy of Champions, Eternal Champions, any other coalition members or alliances, general chat, or anybody of any importance whatsoever and may be summarily dismissed by all who would like to do so.
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Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 21:49
Umm. Sorry 'brah'. Nope. If the coalition had ever stated TD spoke on our behalf then it would be a legitimate question. We didnt = He doesnt = It wasnt = Troll Semantics fail Judy. Awww and you thought you won one. Im sure GC can spare a snuggle ------------- "ouch...best of luck." HonoredMule |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:01
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From Uno, aka Erec: LOL, ok this is getting hilarious. First everyone likes to yell to the 4 winds that no word of peace will ever come from the Valar, but when it does everyone rushes to say that it doesn't count, for a number of reasons (valid or not, is it important?). I added the emphasis. I direct your attention to this line in my post: Well done to CristinaZah for coming forward and opening the dialogue. /me thinks she has been called a nobirdy /me probably is a nobirdy /me decides to laugh instead of being offended |
Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:06
TD stated, VALAR are at war for harboring and protecting Trolls. TD, is not officially at war with VALAR, but he may as well be as it is clear which side he favors in this conflict. But I digressed. So, TD expressed his opinion of why the various alliances are at war with VALAR. So, darling, semantics fail on your part, it IS a legitimate question. Since TD stated this is one of several reasons for VALAR being attacked, then it is a fair question for me to come here and ask, does TD speak on your behalf or no? You could have answered "Yes" or "No" to the question, but I think everyone knows you get as much a kick out of riling people up as I do. In fact, I will be interested to see your reply, because if you continue to try an argue what amounts to an untenable position, you will 1.) show yourself to be trolling and 2.) subsequently reveal additional hypocrisy. Have at it chief! (smiley face to show this isn't bothering me)
Not sure what to call that fail, but I lol at your misfortune nonetheless. Your serve Sir. |
Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:09
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St.Jude - Am I understanding all of this right, that you - at your limited population level - want to be free to attack other players, yet not be attacked by players larger than yourself? Coz needless to say that would be a really...arrogant standpoint. Its hard to follow the actual substance of threads when they go off topic in all directions with regular intervals. We discussed the "Is it fair to attack an newbie" subject, now I think you need to answer - in as few words as possible - the question above. ------------- "FYI - if you had any balls you'd be posting under your in-game name." - KP |
Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:16
Jude: Do you honestly expect anyone to believe you were o' so starry-eyed inquiring as to whether TD speaks for the coalition. Lets call that one rhetorical. Reaching mate (embarrassing a little, no?).
But ouch, consider yours put in my place with that one. Spelling mistake corrected for you specially. ------------- "ouch...best of luck." HonoredMule |
Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:17
I have not and will not claim that. And to be as clear as possible, I do not claim the right to be " Free to attack other players, yet not be attacked by players larger than myself" HOWEVER, I could start to try and redefine and blur the lines. I could ask, define "attack"? |
Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:19
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Anything that involves another player and military units. Not counting diplomacy attacks.
------------- "FYI - if you had any balls you'd be posting under your in-game name." - KP |
Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:21
Since I was inquiring, I would expect any rational non trolling individual to at least recognise it was an inquiry. Would you clarify rhetorical? I take it to mean that yes, TD was speaking on your behalf. You may of course redefine the word. Either way, you are still avoiding the question. Actually two questions, but let me try and make this simple for you. Was H? attacking VALAR because they harbored two players accused of being trolls, myself and ATH? I await your long winded, trolling and evasive non-answer.
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Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:33
Nah Torden, sorry I was trying to make a point. I will let the diplomat one slide given our history :P Retaliation is expected. My objections are this. 1.) I would prefer players not beat up on players significantly smaller than them militarily. i.e. Declare they will wipe them to 0 pop. I don't have the pop size however to enforce that opinion. 2.) Players like Amroth, Lorre and Lawn (simply because it wrecks my head trying to spell it like a welshman) put on their big boy panties and not go sociopathic in game when a player mouths off to them. |
Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:33
No you weren't and that's why they didn't.
Didn't you get that hug? ------------- "ouch...best of luck." HonoredMule |
Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:39
back to the valar reaching out part or how this thread is named you have made ur own thread for the above things go place it there please! ------------- The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies. Napoleon Bonaparte |
Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:41
Seriously? You are a mentalist now and have the ability to prove intention? Sheesh. U! NO U! U! NO U!.....ad infinitum (Latin, HEY LOOK AT ME!) Take it how you will then, seemed pretty clear to me and I bet others too.
Good Lord that was like Water from a Rock. Even Job himself would have been denied entry into the promised land over that one. Fair answer, I should have added "partly" too.
I don't have arms.....oh, and I ate all the pies, so much so that hugging me is impossible without 30 to 40 long armed individuals on your side. Or in H?'s case, 5 or 6.
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:42
| I second Lorre! |
Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 22:52
By Lorre's logic you should have started your own thread to voice your agreement. I will say this thread has been helpful for me, and I am sure many others as to some of the real motives behind this war. Would you be willing to answer the same question posed to Llyorn and H? on behalf of mCrows?
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Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 23:03
| Screw it, I am off to play munchkin and have a few drinks. Tally Ho! Til the morrow! |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 04:12
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I have NEVER claimed to speak for the coalition. In fact, I have always stated otherwise. So, SJ. I say to you directly: You Lie. I have offered to speak to the coalition on behalf of VALAR if Azreal asked me in PM. I have repeated that offer many times. I have not received a PM from Az. In the meantime, SJ, you declared war on 45 alliances. Including DEVS and most of whom nothing to do with anything. |
Posted By: tallica
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 04:56
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I used to respect StJude, back when he was taking on Havoc the first time (the first first time) and actually right before that happened. In the past 2 months (maybe 3) that respect has turned around. StJude is burning bridges with his actions, what I see is that he's killing himself in his actions. My guess is that he's bored with the game and this is his 'going out with a bang'. Additionally, when I first started (back sometime in early June) one of the first things I was told was that Valar was a mean alliance (not that they were straight up evil, but that one would do well to stay away from them). My early experiences were quite peaceful and I found that to be a great relief compared to other, similar games (no names, no names). As I got larger and more involved, the rumor of Valar being a mean alliance turned into Valar is evil. (I was hearing this from most people in general not just Lorre). At this point I was doing most of the 'planning' for the alliance WN and kept it in my mind to be sure to give the Valar players in the area a wide buffer area. What's my point in all this? Even among players who are not very active, or even have been around for awhile, Valar had a bad rep. There is absolutely no way that anyone -inside- Valar did not know about this. I'm not saying that Valar is evil, or bad, but I am saying they had a very bad rep. The fact that all I'm seeing out of both Valar players and their Confeds (those that I am seeing) is complete ignorance of this fact completely astounds me. There is no way they couldn't see this coming. Me being a semi-active player knew that one day Valar would be on the receiving end of...well something not nice. Quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing complaining by anyone about how everyone is teaming up on Valar, or that they don't know the reason why this is happening, ESPECIALLY FROM THE MEMBERS OF VALAR THEMSELVES! This is the last time you'll see me talking about this war until it's conclusion (at which point I would like to try and name this..........thing.) |
Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 07:47
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Apologies for not managing to create this forum account sooner. Long story, not interesting. Solved now. A brief introduction and history... I started playing on the 20th of June 2010, soon joined a small (and ultimately mostly hopeless) alliance, left it after 4 months of getting nowhere (or rather, backwards), created my own minuscule alliance (which nobody joined in nearly 3 months because I didn't bother even trying to get recruits, but I was sort of ok with that), then back in early February this year (2011), I was invited into a modestly-sized (not to say tiny) strictly DEFENSIVE alliance... yes, when I joined Valar, they were not even on the top 20 page (actually, quite far from it). But enough about ancient history. Suffice to say, I've been around for a while and at least some of the Valar appreciate my presence, but I have never wanted nor sought an active leadership position. As far as I am aware, the official internal position of Valar is that we are supposed to be a defensive alliance that does not harass newbies and tries to solve conflicts in a diplomatic manner. That's how it was advertised to me initially, that's how it still is. Now, COMPLIANCE with those internal rules and PUNISHMENT for breaking them, that's where it gets tricky. As in, I have no idea what's going on. Like, literally, none. I am quite certain (or rather, hopeful) that some if not a lot of the blame can be tracked back to only some very specific members of Valar (regardless of whether it was about actual faults or simply just misunderstandings), and that the coalition does not wish for the indiscriminate destruction of the entire alliance. Sure, we theoretically could have even 90% of Valar leave, and 80% join up in a fresh alliance under new leadership, but would THAT stop the war, or would we just end up with a new war declaration set ? WHO does the coalition have a problem with and why ? Can any of those problems be solved peacefully, or is the only option bloodshed ? Why ? Is that too much to ask, an explanation of why this is happening, what is expected of us ? A handful of people decry that my request is not official-looking enough - well, OF COURSE it's not. It's not official because our "official" leadership team is mostly away without forewarning (not totally away, but at least no peep comes out of them, you get the idea), and anyway, if it is true one of the goals of this massive war declaration spree is to change leadership, what good would a message from one present leader DO anyway ? Maybe the leadership's silence is warranted, maybe those offline long have genuine internet connections, and maybe Elvis lives, who knows. I certainly don't know. And it's an intentionally OPEN request anyway. You know, when people declare war in the real world, it's usually customary to tell the other party WHY you declared war (even if it's just a cover) and what you expect to get out of it in the end... and usually, it's done loud enough so that the general population of your opponent can hear it too. Well, we HAVEN'T heard it yet, us, the general population. Yes, maybe those statements of intentions and factual, punctual requests are buried on page #42 of thread #13 discussing the war, but that's as good as them being on display in the cellar of the Alpha Centauri Direction of Transportation as far as the "Valar grunt" is concerned. So, please, be so kind as to rehash them for us grunts that don't know better. And I do not mean that sarcastically. Please, really do tell us WHAT DO YOU WANT. I can't promise we'll like what you want, nor can I promise we'll give you what you want, but at least we'll KNOW what you want, so we can start working on a solution. Right now, we have no idea what you want, and the default generalized fear is something like (paraphrasing) "waarrgh, all Valar must die". |
Posted By: Uno
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:14
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Rill ok, everyone except you if you feel it is necessary to nitpick on this point. A part from the fact that you aren't conducting any war action, you had already expressed in a number of posts the desire to talk about a diplomatic solution so I didn't think it is necessary to state it in every other post. In future I'll be careful to always state that Rill wants to talk *nod*
I never wrote you don't wish to talk. I wish you would learn to read and most importantly to not take everything that isn't a praise to your ego like a personal challenge.
So far with this attitude, H? and the whole Gankers Coalition is only proving the theorem that the biggest has all rights to behave as the bully with the smaller and the proof is in your own words and actions. You say "You are against us? Stand up and fight us". Why didn't you stand up against Spirit-Roller and fight him alone? You had to form The Gankers Coaltion to be superior in numbers and then come to the forums and play the superior and bully challenging everyone to stop you. One day you'll probably suffer the same fate and you'll whine louder than the Valar is... anyways I'm off of this discussion, after being called all sort of names turns out I was right: you messed up the whole game only to have your personal showdown with a few players. There is no "fight for the sandbox spirit of Illyriad" here, it's the exact contrary. You could have done the same without messing everything up. Your ego would have been satisfied and newbies wouldn't think that Illyriad is like any other game out there where the biggest gank the smallest. ------------- Eréc of Caer Uisc King of Dyfneint Indomiti Alliance |
Posted By: The_Dragon
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:21
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CristinaZah, why you? Why not Azreil himself to start this thread? In my personal opinion, Valar's problem arise because of their arrogance leaders. The fact that this thread is created by you is only prove that it didn't change yet. |
Posted By: Ryuuku
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:28
Well, AFAIK, Curse is fighting roller/Spirit alone, still. But don't let that stop you from repeating the propaganda line about the "Coalition" being giant bullies out to exterminate you all. Oh, and also that Curse should be on VALAR's side because the eeeevil H? is out to get us next. Funny how that falls on deaf ears. H?, Curse, Goonies that was, DLord - we have all been around a long time in this game together and somehow have managed not to end up in conflict but in dialog. It's quite interesting that these VALAR folks feel they must come to the forums to get information from their enemies about their own alliance. I guess the leadership is as contemptuous of the plebes inside their alliance as they are of the ones outside, and talk to them about the same amount.
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Posted By: Uno
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:30
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I think it was clear to everyone at this point that Azreil doesn't want to talk? What need is there to state it every time someone tries to talk, at all effects disregarding and undermining what they are saying? In case you're missing it, she just says she doesn't know anything. Before quitting the Alliance I would want to know facts, I doubt anyone would take for granted that their Alliance leader is an arse after having played that long at his side. Hence instead of continuing to call out Azreil, maybe start to SERIOUSLY talk with those who really want to talk. Coincidentally Christina asked for the same, obvious, guarantees I had suggested earlier and that none had the time to address since it is more interesting to feed the trolls: if members of the Valar quit the Alliance and form their own, is there a guarantee they will be left alone? Who will not be left aalone? Etc. ------------- Eréc of Caer Uisc King of Dyfneint Indomiti Alliance |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:35
| I'm working on it. I know you know that. But anyone who doesn't know it: I'm working on it. |
Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:35
Why me ? Precisely BECAUSE the leadership didn't do it. Why they didn't is an exercise in thought I am not willing to entertain at this time, and needs to be solved separately. With the risk of repeating myself for the 3rd time even if this is only my second post, if it is true that Valar needs different leadership, how exactly do you expect this thread to be created by the existing leadership ? That's as close to Catch-22 you can get in Illyriad.
Not being around makes it a bit difficult to speak.
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Posted By: Ryuuku
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 08:56
Here is how you do it: 1. Leave VALAR 2. Create a new Alliance, invite like-minded individuals 3. Start talking as an Alliance instead of as an individual If I am in an alliance with an unresponsive, absent leadership, I would consider it already dead, and find something else to do. Azreil, as has been stated over and over, does not respond to any diplomacy, even before the last 1-3 days. That is probably the main reason VALAR has ended up in this spot. |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 09:08
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/me applauds Cristina Thanks for stepping forward, it's not an easy burden to bear. As people have said repeatedly, the Coalition does not want the destruction of Valar, we want honest dialogue, and I commend you for being willing to start it. Please folks, lets look for the Valar leaders who are acting like leaders, stepping up and talking to people. Exposing oneself to criticism and being willing to take responsibility for problems that you didn't create -- that's the kind of leadership an alliance needs. That's what Valar has needed. It looks like that's what they're getting now. And I think Cristina deserves applause, not scorn. Thanks.
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Posted By: karpintero
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 09:43
I agree with Rill. CristinaZah should be praised for stepping forward, not met with nonsensical statements about her not being in a position to negotiate. Don't keep on insisting on "Valar leadership should step out", etc. If you are being sincere about your efforts, then at least humor her request. All negotiations require time. At least give her the terms she requested, all you leaders of the Harmless Gang. Then she will try to do what she can. Then you wait. Can't you wait? Please don't make it sound like you are refusing negotiations. What she did is a start and without a start you cannot get to the end. ------------- War is ugly. Make it happy. |
Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 12:50
dear UNO LOL, ok this is getting hilarious. First everyone likes to yell to the 4 winds that no word of peace will ever come from the Valar, but when it does everyone rushes to say that it doesn't count, for a number of reasons (valid or not, is it important?). While I agree that this is in no way an official offer for negotiations, it was a good chance for coalitions to show they are seriously pursuing something and ultimately a peace, but I don't see anything remotely comparable to what you all have been claiming. Anyways TD, both declarations of war and peace treaties and sometimes even part of negotiations occur publicly. Open a freaking History book and you will perhaps realize it. Your claims about declarations of intents belonging to the past and being uninteresting at this point, while the war is ongoing, border the pathetic. If you guys intend to nominate yourselves as the defenders of Illyriad gameplay you will better try and be transparent instead of suggesting everything should be kept secret and treating this whole issue as your "thing with Azreil and a few other guys". "I will only speak with Azreil". Bla bla bla. Which if you finally start to be honest, it is exactly what this all is about: a showdown with Azreil. So far the peace solutions provided to the members of Valar are: 1) Overthrow Azreil (technically impossibile AFAIK) 2) Quit the alliance What if they all quit the alliance and found one named Order of the Vaiar? Will it be all fun and games? You guys aren't being serious and most of all aren't being honest. ------------- The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies. Napoleon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 12:59
awful to be in Velar right now. i feel you.... leader absence is really hard on the morale of any ally... the more if at war whit a lot of people.. what about second in command Darkone? ------------- my words on this forum are from me alone. DLords official words only come from HighKing Belargyle |
Posted By: Wolfgangvondi
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 13:44
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Me supports VALAR. So much talking. And i can only understand half. for the half i can understand... Valar supported therer conf, killing sieges against allies. Now it all ends up in a coalition trying to kill VALAR (getting to big and strong?), cuz the way the Coalition thinks and plays is the best way to play they say. ( cant Valar say the same?) I have been helped by Valar members (and have never be one of them), and from other alliances Like the ASir (and have never be one of them). But i have never been helped by any of your do-good alliaces. SO i support the ones that have made my stay here a bit easy and bit more fun. For me its only an war of "the world must be like i like it to be". And in that case I like to be whit the VALAR. Wolfgangvondi Just another Orc |
Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 14:02
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well it wasnt valar supporting there confed that was PoS. why do i still bother.... ------------- The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies. Napoleon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Celebcalen
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 14:05
Many of us ask the same question |
Posted By: lorre
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 14:13
that was supposed to be clever? ------------- The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemies. Napoleon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Jefke
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 14:40
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If the goal is "remove alliance leadership",.. it looks likely to become "remove the alliance completely". Been there. Not a good place to be. I can only hope that all involved consider the results of their actions. No alliance worth it's name can claim innocence or "the moral high ground". History will be written by those who can. But it are our choices and actions that define us, nothing else. If you wonder; SkB will support it's allies - VALAR, ICON, ... are there more on the black list? Yet we stand for peace. So we will not attack unless being attacked. Simple no? |
Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 15:44
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the leader of an alliance can manually hand over leadership to somebody else if he wants to, no ? It is my hope that in case the majority of the alliance would vote to have a change of leadership, then Azreil (whenever he passes around back to these parts) will be just gracious enough to simply hand it over... and that the coalition would be understanding enough to temporarily cease aggression on the rest of the people that have agreed to whatever terms the coalition will be proposing until we can fully comply one way or another. It amazes me how a lot of people in here only think or at least speak of the worst case scenario. Yes, we might need to plan for a worst case scenario, but it is by no means the only option available. Azreil might not be the perfect leader, true, but that doesn't mean he has to be vindictive enough to refuse handing leadership over. Sure, he might need some time to cool down, but as long as he's literally away from the game, it's not like he can actually do anything the coalition finds unpleasant, no ? Also, what player would you rather have in the game, in your alliance, or as a friend ? One that bails out at the first sign of trouble, or one that sticks around until it looks hopeless, and sometimes even for a while after ? We speak about protecting newbies, but what about protecting the veterans ? Do you really wish to drive out from the game anywhere between 20 to 80 active players JUST BECAUSE a literal handful of people from the alliance behave in a way some people did not like ? What's the greater loss, somebody who has been around for 6 to 12 months, or somebody who has been around for 2 weeks and might quit in another week ? It's one thing to get raided for resources or asked to move or be sieged, but it's a completely a different matter altogether to face the destruction of what took you months upon months to accomplish (maybe even spent some cash on it for prestige) because 6+ alliances (out of which some prepared for war for a good while in advance) declared war on your alliance and started obliteration protocols ? Yes, as I said, probably a few people "deserved it", or maybe not so much, I do not know for sure - thing is, we NEED to know what is ASKED of us. If a change in leadership is needed, say you want a change in leadership, and if we vote to obey the terms, we will do everything in our power to do exactly that. If however your intention is to have us break down the alliance, SAY that. Sure, it will be harder to swallow, but at least we'll know. I know Valar as an alliance is not exactly the most popular alliance right now (understatement of the year) and I am only mildly surprised it is so (talk about problems growing way out of proportion), but I doubt anybody that dislikes Valar as an alliance could really name more than 1 out of 10 names with which they actually have a grudge (and most of those names from various sources will probably be nearly the same). Bottom line, I am still waiting to see a simple copypasteable to the Valar general population "If you do the following list of things and promise to this other list of things, we will drop the wars and stop any hostilities" post or mail from the coalition, either individually from each of them, or as a single combined statement of terms. Again, true, we might not be able to accomplish much without doing some irreversible things, but that doesn't mean we have to rush and do them.
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Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 15:55
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Speaking of our second-in-command, darkone. The following is a mass alliance message that was sent by darkone this afternoon, and I have gotten the permission to quote it from him.
As you can see, he's pretty disappointed with not just the current situation, but the game as a whole. I might not share his pessimism regarding the future of the game, but I can understand his frustration. Sadly, this is not the only case of "burn-out", if what he says there is accurate. I have seen burnout in quite a few other games I used to play, and yes, it is a legitimate concern - invest too much, too soon, too often, and when a seemingly insurmountable problem comes around, that's the straw that breaks the camel's back. I personally have learned to pace myself after making the same mistake a few times (I'm no spring chicken anymore, if you catch my drift), but whoever masters pacing is far less likely to even WANT to be in a position of power. Also, apparently, Azreil has been gone for LONGER than that:
So, it might be indeed that the coalition will end up getting what they wanted (or probably more) without actually having to bother even presenting some of the terms. |
Posted By: <Squill>
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 15:58
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Well; the forces that may be have overcome us... Darkone, Azreil and Tigre have left, Azreil has not personally logged in for over six days now. Darkone has admitted that he has also given up. Tigre has not been part of Illy for a while now. This of course means that Valar has surrendered, any further communication to Valar leadership is pointless. I have stated to my alliance that I want to start a new alliance myself. I sincerely hope that everyone will respect this and not attack my members. Those that join me will be under a different banner and so under different leadership. This leadership holds no animosity. If you have any questions or concerns regarding this new alliance please contact me. Squill |
Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 16:11
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I was still holding a faint hope that Azreil might drop back in and do the honourable thing, but it appears there's very little chance of that happening. Well... We still haven't completely clarified the situation though. The coalition needs to at least post a list of names of still-active people that would draw their ire in case they get reincorporated into the re-alliance of whatever's left of Valar after this. We would not want a repeat of this incident, would we ? That is, if we can even manage to recreate the alliance and don't just have people split into heck knows how many other alliances.
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Posted By: nvp33
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 16:37
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I have a strong urge to polish my halo.... and I'm gonna do just that: When I was the leader of the Unified Orc Scourge (US) and The Mal Motshans (TMM), an alliance at the top ten while we were about 26th, declared war on us, I didn't quit in despair, I didn't stop playing when my members, big and small, needed me most. I wrote anyone and everyone, I contacted neighbours and people half a world away, I used the forums, I paid mercenaries, I bought T2 resources like you wouldn't believe, I bought prestige to complete my barracks lvl 20 so I could research siege so I at least could strike back, I did all I could untill I finally had enough allies and resources to match and surpass the TMM alliance. And had all of that failed I would still have stayed to do all I could to make sure as many of my members got through it as was possible. Azreil leaving like this is... is... I have no "one" word for it, but I do NOT approve. I don't know anything about his past or why some people don't like him, but this is NOT how a leader behaves. Ok, rant and halo polishing over, here comes the tricky part: Before I joined, while BSH was small and in need of help, VALAR helped this alliance a lot and due to this we have a NAP with VALAR. We do not know why this war started, and to be honest, after all the hyperbole on GC and the forums, we simply don't care anymore. The war started, end of story. In the spirit of moving on and healing the fracture which seems to have come in Illyriad we would like to invite every ORC member of VALAR to join us. Tragic or not, we have a racial restriction on our alliance recruitment. If you are under siege or another form of attack, tell us by whom and we will help sort it out, if at all possible. If an officer of one of the opposing alliances have a problem with one of the VALAR members we invite then contact me and we will take it from there. Sincerely nvp33 - Voice of The Horde A curiously wellspoken orc |
Posted By: Dunedain
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 16:47
| A truly noble gesture nvp. I am sure I can see a sparkling halo :P |
Posted By: Ryuuku
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 18:26
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CristinaZah, I salute you on your persistence in looking for a group solution. I still say, that you need to form your own group, and I think now you have seen why. Only Iduna can speak for Curse, but we have all made it clear that roller/Spirit is our issue, so take it from there. |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 18:37
| Valar leadership seems to have changed Ryuuku. There has been no public declaration, i am not sure about it. Look at their alliance players page. |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 19:37
| Congratulations to CristinaZah, new leader of Valar, and best wishes to Valar reborn! |
Posted By: The_Dude
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 19:40
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One problem VALAR has is moving the alliance capital to an active player - CristinaZah. If I recall, a sitter may NOT move the alliance capital. The capital is necessary to manage the treasury which is a very important alliance function. So please consider this issue.
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Posted By: Amroth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 20:32
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First I see azreil has not been around for a minute. His population has grown since he has been gone though. ( Funny That ) His statements to myself indicated that the Valar live and die with him.....one moment, I am not as skilled at this but I am learning quickly... Ah here it is here...
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Posted By: Amroth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 20:41
Now furthermore...
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Posted By: Amroth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 20:43
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Seems like the Valar leadership has spoken. Much can be made of all these events yet the truth remains that azreil had the chance to avoid all of this. We do bid him whatever destiny his honor does allow.
Also to clarify...I had been warning azreil since Du_Q that his policies needed adjustments. Spirit/roller widened the gap between us, and his hatred of Lorre pushed us apart for good. I had attempted to tell azreil that the community would rise against Valar if they did not curb their amnesty to troublemakers policy. Azreil was far to swept up in his aspirations to drag down certain other guilds in Illy that he was plotting with other alliances to bring this about....you know who you are and so do all of us... Illy is a sand box...azreil's sandcastle is washed away by the tide.
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Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 20:47
Now we see what this was REALLY about!!! Well played Sir! I wonder how many people went into this thing knowing this was all to do with your inability to take ICON out! Man, I am AWESOME at this game!
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Posted By: Amroth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 21:00
| Those were azreil's words...not mine jude. He interpreted my message as he saw fit, but his vison was warped by his ambitions. It was zork who got him to strike us. Nice bit of gaming there. I did all from conviction. This is why Champions have been upheld. I would not expect you to understand this as you have repeatedly demonstrated that you lack character. Remember jude, Just because you are a character, doesn't mean you have character. Keep those ears peeled jude...that last laugh I mentioned...enjoy the sand. |
Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 21:11
Beautiful. Could not have said it better.  ------------- "ouch...best of luck." HonoredMule |
Posted By: Grego
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 21:16
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Could someone finally start talking about terms? :-& |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 21:26
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since war is de facto over with most of Valar leadership gone it is mostly matter of armies returning home and reorganizing remaining activ Valar players i presume (not counting Roller and Spirit probably) |
Posted By: Amroth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 22:03
| Last post here for me. I would think that as their leadership has abandoned them...it would be up to the Valar members to seek peace as individuals to the respective parties currently engaged in hostilities with them. If they would keep the Banner of Azreil, then surely as loyal subject who swore fealty, they await his return to further pursue his agendas. This is the reasonable take on the situation. Or at least the view from over here. |
Posted By: Sloter
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 22:18
| It is one way to look at it.What is banner of Azreil?Is this war against individual players or politics represented by ex Valar leaders that seems to be gone now?Anyway they will need few days to see what will they do as alliance and individuals, least sporting thing would be to do that thinking under sieges.Best to give them time to sort out situation in their alliance and then ask for peace with alliances in state of war with them. |
Posted By: Southern Dwarf
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 23:00
This is silly. "Staying under Azreil's banner" seems to indicate that VALAR should be disbanded so Harmless? will cease hostilities. So much hate in a game 
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Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 23:06
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it's what some of the mob-gang want to see: Azreil crawling in the dirt begging for mercy. but that will never happen.. and the ego of those peoples will remain unsatisfied. ------------- my words on this forum are from me alone. DLords official words only come from HighKing Belargyle |
Posted By: StJude
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 23:07
Do you even realize how contradictory you sound? On one hand, you state they were Azreil's words and imply he somehow misinterpreted your message, then you close by confirming, that he did indeed interpret your message correctly. It is these inconsistencies that have revealed your true character in the game. One of a bully, who's will was thwarted, and in frustration, called for the heads of all those who opposed you. Here's the thing. You can't win. For you to really win, you need to drive me from this game. And as I said many times before, whether my cities are 0 or 150,000, I will still be here playing and exposing your true character for all of Illyriad to see.
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Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 23:16
Damn! really? Shoot. Oh well. Back to ma moosic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_VbImuG71M ------------- "ouch...best of luck." HonoredMule |
Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 23:24
bullseye hu? ------------- my words on this forum are from me alone. DLords official words only come from HighKing Belargyle |
Posted By: Keldoron
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 23:29
I agree with you there. Since VALAR wants to write a new chapter, they should be at least given a chance imo. Shouldn't the righteous and honorable have mercy on those that have been defeated?
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Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2011 at 23:58
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I can only report what ScottFitz communicated in another thread and I have heard as a member of mCrow. All attacks on anyone other than Valar's old leadership are to cease. I observe that Harmless? has offered peace to PoS as well. I am confident that this war will be concluded with just terms that allow peace with honor for all sides. Hopefully the war will end without the extermination -- or even anything approaching the extermination -- of the losing side. If it does, then the leaders of the Seven Friends, of Prisoners and the new leadership of Valar are to be commended for providing an example for the future. For the most part (with some unfortunate exceptions) this war has been conducted between players who are well equipped for and willing to participate in war. Although it's always more fun to win a war than to lose it, hopefully both sides will be satisfied with the risks they took and the outcome they achieved.
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Posted By: Corwin
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 00:18
So terms for peace are total destruction of valar? Nice one. You're an honorable man Amroth.
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Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 00:32
Can we have a screenshot of this message? Not that I don't trust you Amroth, but I recall coming across similar situations a few threads ago were just copying ans pasting igm texts into the forums no longer counts as its easily faked. ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
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Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 01:12
Rest assured that is not the case, Corwin. |
Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 02:01
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THE ALLIANCE LEADERSHIP OF VALAR WAS TRANSFERRED A SHORT WHILE AGO TO ME. I do not know exactly who managed to do it or how, but it happened. My first official act as leader was to urge all current members to stop initiating any new offensive actions, to limit themselves only to defense for the time being. Of course, any diplomatic and military missions en-route can not be recalled, and camps (if any) will take a while to recall, but at least in theory no hostile action should be started from this point onwards. If anybody is caught initiating new hostile actions after this timestamp, please let me know ASAP. I hope this will be taken as another small gesture of good faith, accelerating the process of finalizing the terms for the end of the hostilities. 6 members have already left, and some others might still leave. I have not altered any of the rights of existing members, nor have I kicked anybody out... yet. For instance, I do not know whether the coalition merely wanted Azreil replaced as leader or also removed from the alliance (it was my impression just the former, not the latter, but I can't be sure). The point may be moot for several players, as they hit deep inactivity thresholds anyway. Still, I beg the coalition to at least hurry with presenting the list of names of VALAR players that absolutely and non-negotiably need to be expelled ASAP for this peace process to proceed (hopefully with a temporary cease-fire as soon as the names on the list are gone). The rest of the terms can be inked out properly later, but I presume this one needs to be taken care of first, with the utmost urgency.
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Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 02:11
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I honestly do not desire to maintain this particular top leadership position for long, and I would like to step back down into some sort of advisory role as soon as this crisis is over. I will also initiate some internal reform, to try and prevent any similar situations from ever developing again, and hopefully rehabilitate the public image of Valar in the process. I hope the Valar as a group have learned the hard way the lesson that hubris is usually the reason for the downfall of many mighty entities. We obviously need to have stricter rules of conduct, and those rules should be enforced better. Of course, you can't always expect everybody to play nice all the time, but hopefully cases where people don't "play nice with others" should be detected earlier and either counseled or expelled before they become an alliance problem. There's a lot of work to be done, both on the external and internal front, and even our current (or, hopefully, former) enemies should be able to contribute to a process that has the potential to make Illyriad a better place for everybody. Call me hopelessly idealistic if you want :P
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Posted By: Sovereign
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 02:17
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Cristina, I applaud your efforts. ------------- ~~Sovereign~~ "Dreams are the inspiration for the creation of man-made miracles" |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 02:29
| Well said Cristina! |
Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 02:56
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I want to apologize to whatever people I don't respond to in mails in a speedy fashion - it is almost 5 AM over here right now, I came back a few hours ago from a good friend's birthday party and spent all the time between then and now attempting to respond to in-game mails and I'm barely halfway through !!! If you will recall, I have repeatedly stated that I don't exactly have a lot of free time and that this is one of the main reasons I never wanted the leadership position. It is only blind luck that this happened in a weekend, I shudder to think how things would have went down if this happened during the weekdays. I KNOW MOST COALITION LEADERS WOULD PREFER TO TALK IN PRIVATE OVER MAILS, BUT I SIMPLY CAN NOT HANDLE THE FULL CONVERSATIONAL WORKLOAD AT A REASONABLE PACE VIA IN-GAME MAILS (not even now, let alone from Monday onwards). We need to come up with a better way of communicating more expediently - a private webchat for instance, I have been talking with a couple of people that way, I would appreciate it if more of the coalition leadership would join in (I didn't initiate the chat room, but I can redirect you to who did in order to gain access). |
Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:09
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I still hope at least PARTS of these negotiations could be conducted in a public manner, to lower the necessary workload - only keep truly private matters private, matters of principle public. I, for one, fully believe in transparency. But I am open to anything that helps us get this over with as soon as possible. |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:28
wh..wha..what is this..? Are you really trading off your friends, and teammates, to keep you, and others alive? wow. there's loyalty for ya. ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: tallica
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:30
It's called surrendering. Better to cut off a few diseased limbs than lose the whole body... |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:31
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Is the war over then? ------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:32
It's called traitorous bullshi*! ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:36
------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:38
Am I the only one having a problem with this? "Sometimes you must sell out your fellow friends in your alliance during a war" ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:41
------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:44
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I just see a problem with selling our your members, scapegoating them in a way so you can avoid hellfire. You shall be forever called a traitor in my book CristinaZah. "shakes head and walks away" ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:47
------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: tallica
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:51
I agree, get rid of a few troublesome members and save the other 90. At least live to fight another day, when the odds are not so stacked against you. I like the new face of Valar, but I hope that this is a truly honest overall change. I hope things don't revert in a few weeks... |
Posted By: CristinaZah
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:52
I think you're confusing loyalty with blind obedience. I personally didn't enjoy how things were handled diplomatically in the past, and I am also guilty of blindly and unquestioningly following whatever the mandatory alliance actions might have been, because it was less stressful to do so than fight with authority figures... but when you reach THIS point, there's not much choice. When the leadership barely even logs in at all, barely tells us any semblance of former plans (which fell through anyway), when A THIRD of the alliance has NOT logged in in days, and more than half of those that did log in are talking about leaving (6 already did) to other alliances in 1 or 2 days max if the situation is not resolved, you're faced with the choice between amputation or death. It's easy to say that I am throwing people under the bus and ignore the circumstances. Want to talk about loyalty ? The DISLOYAL thing to do would have been to JUST QUIT THE ALLIANCE and leave everybody to do whatever they want to do - it would have been trivially simple to do. If *I* was the one creating problems for my alliance, I would start by apologizing to my alliance for any wrongdoings I might have done, I would try to make amends with the people I slighted so the hostilities might cease, and if nothing else helps, I would volunteer to leave the alliance and face the consequences instead of getting everybody else in trouble. *I* don't expect people to bail me out of trouble if I don't make the best efforts to solve those problems myself first. Bottom line is, it doesn't really mater what a complete outsider to this conflict calls me. If my alliance-mates end up resenting me, so be it. I do what I personally feel is right for the greater group, and if that does not sit well with you, feel free to call me any names you like, it doesn't make one bit of a difference. As they say, try to walk a mile in my shoes.
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Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:53
 ------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:53
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OK, first, I haven't heard any coalition member demand that anyone be kicked YET. But I'm also not privy to the discussions of the top leadership. But I want to point out that this may very well be a moot point. Second, IF there was a request for a member to be expelled, it would at least possibly be because that member had done something to seriously offend one of the coalition alliances. In this case, if a member of an alliance has acted dishonorably (I'm not saying that's the case, just that it's possible) then it would be no dishonor to expel that member. A similar example is the process of extradition for a person wanted for a crime in another country. Under certain circumstances it may be appropriate to hand that citizen over to another country for judgment. I am not saying any of that is the case here, I don't know any details. However, it is not automatically dishonorable to expel an alliance member for misdeeds, either against the alliance or against a third party. Once again, please let's not jump to conclusions. Edited to add: I see Cristina has ably addressed these points above. /me applauds Cristina once again.
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Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 03:57
------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |