Damn...thread over imo.

To sum it up: Because we don't like your approach to the game, we declare war. The funniest part however, is that the disliked approach regards wars.

The chance to eliminate a powerful rival alliance is too tempting to resist. Even at the cost of destroying the cities of players who did not even raise a hand against them. Valar is not innocent, but let those who have not sinned cast the stones of war. And I do not think all these anti-Valar alliances are as righteous as they claim to be. I do not believe for a second that they are doing this most sincerely for the community. They are just doing this for themselves.

I oppose war inflicted by others on those who don't want it.  When I hear Valar say they don't want war and are willing to live and let live, I will be the first to speak for them.  (If The_Dude doesn't beat me to it.)

Really? 

Niemoller?

THAT'S not blowing this out of context or anything.

Quoting that speech should be a corollary to Godwin's Law.

It's a game people. Let's leave the Nazi allusions at the door.

War is already forced on Valar. What do you suppose they can do, beg for mercy like a bunch of losers? It has become clear that they do not want this war, but they also have some speck of pride as an alliance and will of course fight to defend themselves against this "crusade" against them.

and I didn't speak out because... oh wait! take cover!

Well done Sir! the denizens of Illyriad will be hoisting you on their shoulders and will loudly be declaring your name.

Because...

I simply do not even know what to say to this. /facepalm.

I'm an apocalyptic socialist, does that count?

I thought this thread was about mCrow declaring war to Valar, not the other way around, I must miss something because I don't understand how this translate to you opposing to war inflicted on others. So what is the purpouse of this declaration of war? I read mCrow doesn't want to remove Valar's players from Illy but at the same can't accept their playstyle. I really fail to see how war can be a solution to the problem. Did you think that with Valar at war with half the world, one more declaration of war would make them yeld, bury the hatchet and become the snuggling good guys? The bottom line is that it was half the world to declare war on Valar and not the other way around. Excuse me but I kinda think that acting as if you were the peacemakers is a bit hypocritical.

I've seen 2 voices speaking the role of peacemaker so far...Lashkar and myself.  But in the end, the true peacemaker must be the leadership of VALAR.  Their destiny is in their own hands.

I think if Valar want peace with honor, they should ask for peace with honor.  It doesn't have to be done publicly.  Anyone is welcome to contact me, and I will speak for them, and I am only one of a number of people for whom this is the case.  I am probably not the BEST person for this job, but I want to leave the door open.  As I said, I oppose war against people who don't want it, and if the Valar don't want this war, I am happy to speak on their behalf.

If Valar really believes this is all a power play on the part of Harmless? and others, and if they really are willing to play in the sandbox in a "live and let live" manner, then I think they would best serve themselves and the community by attempting to make peace.  If they are right about the "real" intentions of the coalition members, then what would better expose that than an attempt to make peace?

If Harmless? and other coalition members ARE as nefarious as others claim, I have just screwed up their game strategy.

/me sits back and waits for sabs

war is the way when diplomacy failed

and guess what diplomacy did fail

Because I am sinless, I won't cast any stone, Harry. And I'll be glad to answer your last question once you write it in English.

Don't go into to politics, Uno.

TD: otherwise?

That wasn't a threat, Uno.  LOL

That was free career advice.

i never stated it was for the good of the communety go look for my reasons.

anyway mcrow gave there either accept em or renounce them no use in filling this thread?

I am starting to love you even more Kilotov. Do you have an alt called Molotov? You should.

Out of this tragedy, a bromance is blossoming.

Lorre, I wasn't talking of you about that. You know, when I write "you all", I don't mean Lorre, no offense intended. Anyways I'll feel free to continue defending my opinions in this or any other thread unless I do something against the rules.

CZ out

Oh, so if Valar were to gather a coalition and begin winning lots of battles, there would be Valar people all over the place offering to speak up for an honorable peace?  That makes good hearing!  Let's just cut out the need for them to turn the tide and have them speak for an honorable peace now.
 

Mr SF, Rill and whoever else voted yes to this:

Here is what all this sounds like to me. If you will, let me tell you a wee little story that I think sums up my feelings so far

Your typical Homeowners Association: "Yay! We love everybody! Welcome to our neighborhood! Everyone is welcome! We embrace diversity here! Here's a welcome package, come by the local GC Clubhouse and say hi to everyone!

Weirdo Family Mr and Mrs Valaar: "Um, no thanks, we don't really like the GC clubhouse, we enjoy a bit of the old Neighbor vs Neighbor routine. That's cool right? You said everyone is welcome here in subdivision (estate if you are from the isles) Sandy Box Springs.

Your typical Homeowners Association: "Sure they are! We embrace diversity, remember?"

Weirdo Family Mr and Mrs Valaar: "Cool, we should fit right in here. You will probably see our pets taking dumps in peoples lawns, but other than that, we generally keep to ourselves"

Your typical Homeowners Association: "Sure! No problem! We like people doing their own thing here in Sandy Box Springs, we embrace diversity! Everyone is welcome!"

1 year later......

Your typical Homeowners Association Person A: "Those Valaars sure do keep to themselves other than a few of their kids and pets taking dumps on peoples lawns"

Your typical Homeowners Association Persons B, C, D, E and F: "Yeah, they make no effort to reach out to their neighbors!!!"

Your typical Homeowners Association Person A: "Yeah! That's right! Those arrogant douchebags!"

Your typical Homeowners Association Persons B, C, D, E and F: "You know WHAT? We should go kick their asses until they come and say "Hi" to us!"

All of the typical Homeowners Association: "WHARGARRBBLE, KILL THEM WITH SPIKEY THINGS AND SHOVE FIRE UP THEIR BUMS!!! THAT WILL TEACH THEM TO EMBRACE DIVERSITY LIKE WE DO!!!!"

made a few edits in blue

how would you have diplomatically solved the matter if you were the Valar?

If I were the Valar and I wanted a diplomatic solution, I would go someone neutral -- Lashka has volunteered -- and tell them that I wanted peace.  Or I would post on the forum that I want a diplomatic solution and ask to be contacted.  Or I would have any member of my alliance contact any member of the coalition and say they want to open up discussions.

Any of these overtures would be a good beginning.

Edited to add: nvp33 has also volunteered to mediate.

Honestly, mCrow realize that we are opening ourselves up for this criticism by acting now.  Because of the time it took and the deliberation and discussion that occurred among alliance members, it took until now for us to be ready to declare.  However, we believe this is a matter of honor and of standing for principle.

It is better to me to act honorably and be perceived as dishonorable than to fail to act for fear of staining one's reputation.

I would believe that, if hadn't taken so long to act, if it was wrong then as it is now, why so long to deliberate? Sorry, not buying it.

Right now, your actions have spoken louder than any words you could type on these forums.

In other words, what LEGITIMATE fear did mCrows have in declaring war out of the starting gate?

We don't act out of any fear.  Fear is a poor reason in general to go to war.

There were voices in mCrow that were against the war.  It was not a decision we made lightly.  I myself have very mixed feelings about it.  I agree with so many that force should be the last option.

However, after much debate, we decided to make a stand for the same things I've been saying since before the war started.  Live and let live. And yes, when one values something, sometimes passive resistance isn't enough.  Sometimes one must stand up and be counted.

This is me.  I am saying live and let live.  Even though I don't like war, I'm willing to fight so that others can live in peace.

Count me.

Frankly the fact that someone trots out Martin Niemoller to insinuate that anyone who does not rush to VALAR's defense is a Nazi  or somehow complicit is offensive, out of line, and yes over the top -

To in ANY way equate a GAME with genocide is offensive. To somehow cast those fighting on one side or the other in the same pantheon of the people who actually sacrificed to try to stop many types of genocide over the past century is offensive, both to their memory and what they accomplished.

If the community can't check its vitriol this much, then that's just depressing, and its going to really make me question whether I, as a new player, really want to be part of this community. 

I hope I'm wrong.

And if there are people who can't deal with their frustration and anger about a perceived injustice or a loss of status IN A GAME without trying to debase and hurt another person, if a person gets enjoyment from inflicting emotional distress on other people, well then I recommend they take a good, hard look at their life and their personal happiness.

Sorry, but its true. People want to rail against the mismatch, fine. People want to argue in favor of the Six Armies, fine. 

People can do so without resorting to calling people Nazis, fascists, questioning their sexual identity, their mental health status  or any other aspect of their personhood (by the way, all of the above have happened in the past week, by people on both sides)

Everyone is free to debate the issue, not the person, without resorting to ad hominem attacks and tired memes.

   

You are either not reading what I am saying, or i am communicating for crap.

Let me try and rephrase in case it is the latter.

Why did mCrows not act sooner if they believed VALAR was wrong? The fear I am referring to is, the fear in DECLARING the war sooner. If it was wrong today, it was wrong three weeks ago. Why the delay in saying "It is Wrong! Consequences be damned, we are gonna stand up for the little guy!"

It simply took that long for us to come to a decision.  There were lots of voices to be heard.  We didn't rush into it.

You are missing the point. That was clearly not the intent, but you are welcome to continue believing it.

Lashka wrote: To in ANY way equate a GAME with genocide is offensive. To somehow cast those fighting on one side or the other in the same pantheon of the people who actually sacrificed to try to stop many types of genocide over the past century is offensive, both to their memory and what they accomplished.

Again, no one said they are. You are getting wrapped up in this pretty emotionally. Regardless, I will bite. When the same dude posts Bon Jovi lyrics in one part of a thread and then Niemoller in another, I am not gonna take that dude seriously and start flinging mud about how this guy is a degenerate. I urge you to step back a bit and take stock.

Lashka wrote: If the community can't check its vitriol this much, then that's just depressing, and its going to really make me question whether I, as a new player, really want to be part of this community.  I hope I'm wrong.

No offense here, but no one is making you stay, what reason would you have in voicing that? 

Again, when things go x-Box live in Illyriad, then is the time to check out another game. If it is bothering you this much, I honestly can't understand why you are here reading this tripe then. I honestly don't that. There is a reason you don't see me over on the Hello Kitty forums saying "Hey, this game is lame and so are you forums, until this changes, I am not even sure I can play here"

Lashka wrote: And if there are people who can't deal with their frustration and anger about a perceived injustice or a loss of status IN A GAME without trying to debase and hurt another person, if a person gets enjoyment from inflicting emotional distress on other people, well then I recommend they take a good, hard look at their life and their personal happiness. Sorry, but its true. People want to rail against the mismatch, fine. People want to argue in favor of the Six Armies, fine.

I agree with this....yeah, I know, don't fall out of your chair. At the same time, don't confuse passionate feelings for ideas with sociopathic tendencies.

I was just told by Amroth that it would be a good thing if I committed assisted suicide. Not the end of the world. I won't judge that dude's entire genetic makeup and moral baseline on a moment of frustration. I will however look on him poorly for taking this long to apologise.

Lashka wrote: People can do so without resorting to calling people Nazis, fascists, questioning their sexual identity, their mental health status  or any other aspect of their personhood (by the way, all of the above have happened in the past week, by people on both sides)

So, mCrows had to decide if what VALAR was actually doing was wrong? Implying that.....they may not be the scumbags everyone says they are?

Because the OP sure didn't communicate that.

i can help you with that last one jude want me to go find some?

Yes Sir, I genuinely would, I may have missed them in the nuclear explosion of posts.

You would be better off sending them to me in a Private Message right now though....or not. Up to you.

First of all let me say this: since you felt the need to post your reasons for war, I'm genuinely trying to understand them. To sum this all up: as mCrow you decided that the best course of action, at least now, is war. The blame for this unwanted war, that apparently you strived to avoid, is all to put on Valar because they didn't solve an issue diplomatically but chose war instead. However, you're not willing to tell us what does this mean, what should have Valar done or not done so that half Illy didn't declare war on them? Did I understand something wrong? Correct my mistakes, if any.

This said, it's a bit too cheap to say "they should have solved it diplomatically" because I could say the same about mCrow, right? So why not tell Illyriad, if you were in Valar's shoes, how would you have solved diplomatically the issue that instead originated the whole war?

 From our declaration:

Seems to me that we made it clear that we don't think they are scumbags.  We'll be sure to mention next time that "not inherently evil" also means "not scumbags."

Well, I might have STARTED by talking in gc about what I believe, and trying to dialogue with people.  I might have posted things on the forums and invited them to comment.  I might have talked with people from other alliances about their views and ask if they knew anyone who could intercede.  I might have messaged individual people I perceived as opposed to my ideas and told them that I value their contributions even though we didn't agree.

Oh wait ... I did all of those things.

And Valar ...  not so much.

Did I get emotonal? Yes. But you see, I work on advocacy issues, so when people trot of the 'Hitler' memes, I get emotional.

Don't see where I called Qwazar a 'degenerate'; questioned them on posting the quote, yes. Questioned the appropriateness of the context.  Never said anything about them as a person. Addressing behavior vs. attacking a person.

And if you are not familiar with the quote, perhaps it is instructive to read a bit of its history:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came%E2%80%A6" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came%E2%80%A6

As to the genocide part - actually they did, by including the line about Jewish people. Perhaps 'equating' was a poor choice of words. 'Drawing a parallel to' genocide might be a more accurate term. Doesn't make it any less offensive of the context, a game.

Like I said in a longer note - I actually have no opinion on who wins this. I honestly don't. What I do have an opinion on is people keeping perspective about this game, and the fact that it is, in the end a game. 

If what you said about Amroth is true, then I'm truly sorry - that crosses a line. No one should be advocating suicide.

You called out my statement on potentially leaving. You asked why I would read this. You're right, I could just walk away. But I'm also hoping there's enough people, who like me, would prefer to keep things civil.

It takes a true class act to maintain the high road when the mud's flying. I guess I'm hoping to see more of that from both sides.

You know what? You're right; there is smack talk. But then there's also ad hominem attacks. And I'm sorry, people don't get a pass simply because they insinuate people are something without actually saying they are. 

As to why I would read these pages: I'm in an alliance, which as far as I know, has not taken a position. I read the forum to see how events might impact me as a player. Other than that, I take an interest in how the people I meet here process this event; it gives me insight into what I may expect from them in the future.

The only thing that ad hominem attacks expose is a person's inability to engage in a constructive debate. 

I understand this is an emotional issue for people, and that when people feel their back is up against a wall, they lash out. I understand how disheartening it is to see all your hard work crumble in front of you. I also understand that there are people who consider this an opportunity to eliminate rivals; there are those that see this as a justice issue, and there are those that are just itching to use their armies.

But that doesn't excuse ad hominem behavior - just because one person sinks to this level doesn't mean everyone has to, and it doesn't mean that once a person has done this they're marked forever. People can change, they can choose not to debase each other.

That doesn't mean all perspective has to go out the window. 

And you know what? I have yet to see anyone actually try to roleplay this - if people put less energy into smack, and more into creating an actual narrative - well that's something that might contribute to the game.

Also, maybe Exodus provides an opportunity to create that PvP space in one or more of the lands of Illyriad, where PvP could be the norm; maybe there could be Sandbox countries too. Maybe this doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing battle.

Just a thought.

 

I asked ScottFitz, anyways:

So, you just admitted that you used all tools that Diplomacy could allow you to use yet your conclusion was still that war is the only measure that can be taken against Valar. 

At the same time, you claim that Valar should have done the same you did YET come to another conclusion. Why? Why if you tried the diplomatic way and failed war is fair, but the same can't be true for Valar?

I could also ask how do you know that Valar didn't talk with third parties to see if someone could intercede and how do you know they didn't message individual people. But I'll pretend I didn't read those last lines, because to tell you the truth, they don't make you any right.

Edited to add:  There's still time.  My door is open.  I don't know what I can do, but I will do what I can.

i suggest you browse the forums and read the topics on valar and read between the lines and not the propagenda from both sides (yes i know i contributed alot of that) and then come here and say the excact same thing as above. 

btw i am not only talking bout the recent ones.

Fair enough.  I see your point, and I'll withhold judgement.  

Your statement about "opposing war inflicted on others who dont want it" is kinda in conflict with the actions of your alliance. That is all.

Still haven't heard a single Valar say they want this war to end.  Are you in Valar?

Well, I guess you can say that, but it would be hypocritical and not have a leg to stand on..

Bartozzi, exactly, you hit the point. In this case it appears that both sides use the same argument and behave in the same way. When even a reasonable person like Rill refuses to acknowledge what is clear to anyone not involved in the conflict I don't think there's much that can be done... I only hope that those that claim to be against war yet declare war don't find out the hard way what it means to be at war...

So you're saying that Valar was not willing to solve the issue diplomatically? You realize that it was others to declare war on it though, don't you?

I'm a sandboxer, and a member of Valar.

The guys in PA I've been chatting too (excluding Lorre) are also sandboxers.

We're on different "sides".

A previous thread suggetsed that Valar were wargamers.

Virtually everything I've read from H? recently makes it clear that they are wargamers.

Again, different sides.

So, please, which is meant to be which?

Rill, you are joking?

If every single post I've made in the last week has passed you by:

This war should not be happening.

Lots of people who don't deserve to get hurt are in danger of getting hurt.

Ergo this war should end.

I thought I'd been saying that for the last week, and I thought that was the subtext to most of the Valar guys' comments. 

Maybe Suwail has previously been guilty of some vile crimes that MCrow will be able to explain to us all.

Or maybe not.

I'm sure we'll all sleep soundly tonight, knowing that MCrow are here to keep us safe from the aggression of such terrifying menaces to Illyriad as Suwail.

I agree with LoTS. I am disappointed Rill. They have been complaining and whining about the war. Do you think that matches with behavior of people who want the war they want to be warred upon by 6 alliances? I'm afraid not. I'll repeat, your words do not match the actions of your alliance.

This means you, Kurdruk.  Or anyone.  Please, if you want peace, message me and I will do what I can.

What I want is a commitment from Valar to be accountable for the behavior of its members.  I would like to hear from Valar leadership that they will instruct their members not to attack Illy players who do not want to participate in the "war" aspects of Illy, and a commitment from them that they will engage in problem-solving of issues that should arise between Valar members and other members of the community.  

I don't mean to suggest that Valar should micro-manage its members, just that when a Valar member infringes on another player's "sandbox" that there be a place to go to resolve the problem.  My perception thus far, based on other people's reports and my own very limited interactions with Valar, is that they have not been responsive to such concerns.  Setting up a mechanism to address this sort of issue would, I think, go a long way toward reducing the tension between Valar and other players.

Ummm ... I have just over 2k population.  I'm not gonna wipe out anybody.  My plan is that as long as the war progresses, I will stand here with my hand out, ready to talk to anyone who wants to make peace.

That's my plan.

ugh..!  I mean ponderously philanthropic! 

/me wonders if this is better or worse than being compared to Hitler or Sauron

They will not tell you, I already asked what are peace conditions and there was only silence or smart answers like "The Valar does not want peace". Probably because they, not the Valar, never thought about a peace treaty should come at the end of the war. Most likely they only want to destroy this and that player with which they have personal grudges, and then they will feel their blood thirst is served enough and call off the war with some conditions on the lines of "Don't do it again, you evil guys, otherwise we come to beat you again".

Peace terms are probably best worked out between the alliances, not on the forums for all to heckle.  I appreciate Cristina and Llyorn for posting in another thread --  It appears that dialogue is beginning to occur, and this is heartening.

again dear UNO i have never heard of peaceterms being made up before the war or at the start of the war.

peaceterms usually come towards the end.

ty for understanding.

Well darn it, they didn't clear that with me!  

well my bad, I used the wrong words. I'm not even trying to correct myself since you don't really care, you aren't trying to have a honest discussion but only to denigrate and provoke me. Have fun trying Lorre :)