ME
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Elgea
Forum Description: For everything related to the Elgea Continent
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=2184
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 20:15
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: ME
Posted By: Kurfist
Subject: ME
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 20:46
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You know what? screw it i've been putting this off for forever, and now with all the current stuff going on, id rather let this out now eh? You know me, im CV, helpful leader, friendly, have friends in game, im kurfist, role player, sterotypical orc, have orc friends. then my past, i dont care about this anymore, but the fact im being judged by some for the past and not the last 4 months, well hell might as well let the entire community know as well so we can have the whole fire and pitchforks. The last year i was a sterotypical teenager. i thought i could be a badass online. no one knows the idenity, be who you want to be kind of thing. as a result some of you know me as Attila the Hun. yes big gasp. hold on those picthforks just yet. ill admit. i was a complete ass. i deserved the hate i went through, but this isnt an apology thread. i was on the verge of leaving and the devs gave me one last shot. i took it. BAM kurfist. i started off nice and friendly. still am nice and friendly. i shudder every time i look back on the past, and hell no it doesnt leave me. now with all this current stuff popping up, where i made a comment about eliminating the devs and how that was looked to be as a death threat because of my past. so screw it you know? here i am telling you that i've changed, you 've seen the the change. will that matter once you've read this? probably not but at least i can rest easy knowing that im not hiding anymore. im not resigning from leading my alliances, i dont care if i suddenly have a billon and one sieges inbound. i have acknowledged that i was an ass in the past but here in the past 4 months i've been the friend you all have seen. so yeah. there it is. ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Replies:
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 20:55
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A brave thing to post, Kurfist. Most people hide behind their previous characters, and you haven't here - and this is to be seriously applauded. We have (from the dev side) seen the changes between your characters, but the past hangs around, unfortunately - and I think your addressing it here clears the air a-hundredfold. We're very happy for a "reset", if you are? Regards, SC
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Posted By: scottfitz
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 20:57
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I knew you were ATH from the moment you started these current accounts, which is why I let you into mCrow. I knew that some of your past behavior angered some people, but we as a community need to give people a chance to learn and grow. I support you and always will. If anyone gives you any grief over the dead and gone past, I will be delighted to intervene on your behalf. Keep up the good work and stay involved in Illyriad, we need you here!
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Posted By: Haizea Zurine Wolfe
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 20:57
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:D I <3 yeah Kur! I don't judge by what I hear *though haven't heard anything* , but you've always been good to me :D Even though your an orc :P And CV.... Well... :D We all have alt personalities and think you're pretty awesome to post this! *raises a glass* Cheers to you! I salute your bravery and honesty! ------------- Haizea Žµríne Wolfê Eldest of the Seven Sisters Heir to the Clan of Wolfê White Wind of the Wolfê |
Posted By: BellusRex
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 20:58
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Have no idea the history behind this, but that post took some mannin' up...First time I ever saw a young player really speak to the problems a lot of players have with how some act...good for Kurfist ------------- "War is the father of all things..." |
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 20:59
| Kur, I didn't know you in your "attila" days, and frankly I don't care what you were like then. Now ... sometimes you get on my nerves a little, but I like you fine. Sounds like devs are letting bygones be bygones, and I'm proud of you for refusing to be ruled by your past. |
Posted By: Kilotov of DokGthung
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 21:04
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screw the past, lets move on for a brighter future |
Posted By: KillerPoodle
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 21:04
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Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 21:50
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Wow. Never thought of that. Well done for coming out- we were allies once Kurfist (yes Kurfist, although I may call you CV, let's put ATH to bed), and I hope we can be so again.
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Posted By: Aneirin
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 21:58
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We have not been friends in the past and may well not be in the future. I always try to tell the truth. You always knew that they would expect you to return and what kind of reception you would get if you did. This time you have met the hostility with open honesty and have vowed to play on. That is commendable. You know that you don't need charity or sympathy to do that. I know that you will carry on building your alliance your way. I always found you to be entertaining. Just you make sure that you keep me laughing is all  Aneirin
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Posted By: (EOM) Harry
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 22:30
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Can i just say one thing... By God you have massive Balls! Really didn't have (too much) trouble with ATH even though we had a few moments, i respect the Kurfist and the CV who are both real honorable players, and yeah i kinda knew you were ATH but it never made me judge you, ( I was kinda a dick at the start) ;) your a great friend and a true ally mate and you have got my true respect and more so :) Love and Respect ------------- Fool's watch the land when the problem is in the heart. |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 23:13
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I...don't know how to feel about this entire situation...*wanders off to think* -------------  |
Posted By: Ander
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 07:19
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i started the game only 2 months back and all this time i have known you as a very helpful person person. (Gummy bear might disagree, but you can throw her a few huggle points and she will be as happy a bear as ever!) i haven't known you in your attila days. it takes a lot of character to correct our own mistakes and a lot of courage to be open about it. i have a lot of respect for you Clavicus. |
Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 08:13
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Although, one thing does occur to me. A while ago Kumo said he'd give a load of res and gold (the forum topic is in the forums somewhere...) to someone who discovered the identity of a) LH, and b) ATH (now CV). Does this mean that Kurfie is about to get a lot of Caravans?
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Posted By: HATHALDIR
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 08:31
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Dear Kurfist, i am delighted to read a post, such as this one, from a young gentleman like yourself! If you conduct yourself in real life the way you have in Illy, the world shall truly be your oyster! It takes a REAL man to know his mistakes and a BIGGER man to admit it to others! Keep doing what it is that you do mate!!!! P.S. Ignore the Troll!!! ------------- There's worse blokes than me!! |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 14:40
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Well Kurfist if it means anything I was also a ass when I first started playing, and also will be you returning to the alliance you started as Attila The Hun? ------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: Tordenkaffen
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 14:57
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I am rather shocked by this. While everyone may be in a feelgood mood about this, ATH crossed the line several times - and dont get me wrong I welcome your new personality, but your behaviour had a very negative impact on other players enjoyment of the game. Personally your troublestirring cost me an alliance member, and was it not for a coolheaded Llyorn of Jeansch and Kumo, it might have cost me a whole lot more. That whole ordeal killed about a month of Illyriad for me personally - I was hardly ever on. Now you say youve changed - bueno, but you imho show some bipolar (extreme) tendencies, and I dont feel convinced that your change is permanent. For starters I dont want to be confederated with you - Because I never would have chose to be had I known you were Attila the Hun, and an alliance based on a lie is worthless. Secondly, as I seem to recall you making several players feel bad in some way, no reason to go into details about it, but dont be surprised if I have precious little patience left if you turn to your prior habits. Thirdly, welcome back to Illy, Ill look forward to your new persona in the game - but if you want trust you have to earn it. |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 15:30
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Hur, While I admit that the behavior could be...undesirable. You could also agree that some players had a habit of egging myself on, as it was relatively easy at the time to "piss me off". I'm a little confused what you mean by "an alliance based on lies", perhaps you or someone else could enlighten me. I very much doubt anyone would have much patience for me, however then again i dont care for the "vets" opinions anymore then I did the past year. You know how it was, want your thoughts to be noticed, get ignored, get angry etc. I find many flaws within some of the "guidelines" of the community and challenge them in a good debate, which is like one we had earlier about a hostile birdie. Where have I heard that before? No offense but I didn't make this thread and expect everyone to jump up and down and go "ATH is back!", i did expect some sieges but im glad to see some of us have noticed the change and as long as no behavior turns for the worst, it's all good. You know, not to get a whole "aww poor thing" going, but remember I was also kicked out unfairly out of a private school due to a facebook hack around september 2010, im sure we remember TBM getting banned on day. I was extremal y pissed with nowhere to vent, ya sorry you had to deal with that. But yeah, thanks to the guys who forgets the past and move on, SF is there anything you don't know? and Tord, there's a handy block button on chat, if you dislike someone be sure to use it. ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: threefoothree
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 15:33
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hey kurfist, i was pretty sure you were ath and all the other alts from your speech, type of post and amount of posts. i am glad to see the turning of a new leaf. i personally feel that you have already paid for your past actions. every account you had built got left and had to be abandon. i hold no grudges, and feel that one should not pay twice for the same crime. keep up the good game play and your reward will be a high population account. great luck ps-best advice i could give you...if something happens do not respond while you are feeling emotional, i always see you in a state of emotional turmoil when you start to melt down.
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Posted By: Belthazor
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 15:57
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I missed you. ------------- We work in the Dark to serve the Light |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 16:05
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belthy! /me runs to give belthy a hug ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: Belthazor
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 16:09
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/me hugs his long lost Orc half-brother I knew there was something familiar with CV. ------------- We work in the Dark to serve the Light |
Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 18:00
However, Kurfist does not get anything because he did not discover AtH's identity (having known it all along). Also, we here in H do believe in granting fresh starts for those who actually want to do better. Good luck. |
Nokigon wrote:Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 19:05
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HM--The offer is long stale. I'm not sending caravans or sieges. I'm cautiously optimistic and second Tord's sentiments. |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 22:14
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just a question, why has Kurfist abondaned his alliance he started as ATH and built a new one? even if the alliance he started as ATH is inactive he should at least try to contact them ------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 22:16
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They appeared inactive, the remaining active joined various alliances, and I saw no reason to contact and go "hey i was your leader who had a meltdown and temporarily left the game while he gathered his thoughts, hiya". that didn't seem to be a wise decision. Myself and the active members of that alliance has moved on and I wish them the best luck in WoT and H?.
------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: Llyorn Of Jaensch
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 23:09
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I, unlike most, always had a soft spot for ATH. I saw an intelligent, humerus young man for the most. Your current attitude reaffirms my original beliefs. I think the ability to learn from ones mistakes is commendable Kur. To those whom disagree I challenge them to consider when they were 15. Please keep some perspective and associated patience. Welcome back Kur and I hope the obvious encouragement from the community helps you maintain the path. PS Mooley does make me laugh.  |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2011 at 23:12
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haha what? "mooley makes me laugh" ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: SunStorm
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 02:43
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LoL (^_^) Remember way back when I e-mailed you and said I suspected you were AtH...but you neither denied nor confirmed it. I knew who you were also. Even though you said some insulting things about the French (LoL - sorry to bring that up), I did like you as AtH and wished you had kept that account. I think SC should change your name back and we could all get along and be nice. -------------
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Posted By: bucky
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 02:46
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just adding my miniscule second to what sf and loj said. i was not around for ath's bad days and can't really speak to that, but cv and kurf have been a pleasure to interact with (and yes, i was informed that you were probably ath months ago and also believed a second chance was a good thing) and imho both add something nicely unique to the game. ------------- "If you are the master be sometimes blind, if you are the servant be sometimes deaf." - R. Buckminster Fuller |
Posted By: Manannan
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 17:41
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Kurfist. Whilst I can forgive your past sins for being AtH and appreciate that everyone should get a second chance, your recent behaviour leaves much to be desired, especially regarding your behaviour to members of WoT. I refer specifically to your stupid message to ellisande's husband a week or so back and the incident of you 'spitting' at me in GC a few nights ago. If you truely have turned over a new leaf then do not revert back to your old antagonistic ways. I (and others in WoT) will not hesitate to destroy both you and your alt account if your attitude towards us does not improve and improve rapidly. You seemed to think it was perfectly reasonable to attack ~KT~ for being insulted, but their baiting of you was nothing compared to what we have had to endure from you, both in your current incarnation and past. Whilst I appreciate you like to role play you have to understand boundaries and which marks not to overstep. You have been warned, do not push us any further! ------------- Doesn't look good... doesn't look bad either! "Manananananananananan, so long Sir, and thanks for all the fish." ~ St.Jude |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 19:10
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What? 1. Ellisandes husband? In case you haven't notcied i tend to /me snuggle with all the ladies whom i see talking in global, oh well. There was a mention of a husband, i told her what i was going to do, she lol'ed and said OK. your the one making it an issue, everyone else got the joke. 2. That was over TD's guide, which i consider your guide a complete ripoff of. oh well get over it. Apparently you can;t understand that imi a "role-player" kurfist will never treat you with respect nor anyone else, everyone is expendable in his eye. If you want someone serious to talk to, go talk to CV. 3. both of those happened either a a few days/ week or two "or more" back. You could have broight it up to me then but instead you see now as a good time to bring it up with the threat of destruction because i brought up my past. Very mahco good sir. ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: Dhenna
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 19:19
Copied from the re-written newbie guide:
This is the second version of the New Player Guide. The first was originally published by a great Illyriad called The_Dude who has now left the game, although there was some dispute over who actually wrote it, then later it was republished and added to by myself. Unfortunately the more that was added the more difficult it became to follow hence a rewrite was required.
Just FYI, Kurfist/CV.
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Posted By: BellusRex
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 20:39
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I didn't see any of the things at issue here happen in GC, or any of the earlier history involving Kurfist and his alts, other than having seen Kurfist "huggging" people, so I have can't and won't comment on those. I would like to comment on the roleplaying aspect mentioned. I have over 20 years in the world of roleplaying, as a player, writer, and module designer in the ancient days of TSR, White Wolf, and others. That and a dollar will get me a cup of coffee, I mention it only to illustrate I have a little background to explain my opinion and interest in this. Roleplaying can make a great game even better, but online there are some considerations that must be observed very carefully or it can actually drive people away. Unless a game community specifically calls for RP, I think a few things should be kept in mind. First, you may love RP, and you may think it's great fun. I understand this, I promise. But LOTS of people don't roleplay in these communities, or do so at varying levels of comfort. For some just the act of playing the game itself is all the RP they are interested in. Other may like to try and stay "in character" all the time. With this is in mind, I believe as part of a community you have a duty and obligation to honor and accept the wishes and style of others when you interact with them. As I said, I love to RP online. It can keep things fun, challenge your creativity, and generally add to the immersive element of a game. It also helps me churn up ideas for my RL work. But it only works when others know and recognize what is roleplay and if you always tailor your play to the people around you. If you are going to say that a persona will always act a certain way due to RP, and you basically decide what you want is more important then how other wish to interact, then the consequences are quite fairly on your own head. This post is way too long, so I'll wrap it up with a few things that can help; again, my own opinion and offered only because I'm still in the fiery throes of a game crush. heh. IF you are going to RP, develop a "voice" and style of chat for your persona that can be recognized as such by the broad majority of other players. Use that persona when talking about the game, tread carefully on interjecting it in chat apart from obvious game topics. Arguments and disagreements with other players when you insist its RP and they don't are just unnecessary drama. Fights and feuds between personas can be great fun, but only when its obvious and both gamers understand it to be so. It all boils down to respect. If you want it, you have to give it. We're all here to have fun. Respect how others play the game, and they'll respect you. My two cents. Please try to avoid hitting an eye if you throw them back... ------------- "War is the father of all things..." |
Posted By: Cemmag
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 20:49
I would highly suggest you start marking your comments in gc and on the forums (in obviously ooc threads) as IC/OOC so that people have some clue as to the intended recipient. I have seen the i was in character excuse used entirely too much in my travels as well as cause untold and unnecessary friction between people. It will save you a lot of grief in the long run. Furthermore unless there is a line by one of the devs somewhere stating that global is purely IC (i haven't found anything yet correct me if i am wrong) I personally take any comment as OOC unless stated otherwise. Im not trying to rag on you and it might seem like i am trying to but im not. I just have seen IC statements taken OOC and the situation got out of hand. ------------- “I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you” |
Posted By: Manannan
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 20:51
Ok lets deal with this one point at a time. 1. I couldn't care who you snuggle with be it male, female or beast. You seem to have missed the point of this one. She did respond okay when you said you would mail griz thinking you were joking and warned you not to provoke the grizzly bear, but what you sent to her husband is completely unacceptable. In his mail to me regarding it he asks if he should 'respond with something that will leave you with a brown stain in your skirt or something humorous.' I told him to mix the two. Point of matter is that griz was  off and you and could've happily destroyed you for it. The one thing you never do is claim another mans wife as your own even in jest!2. At no point have I ever claimed the New Player Guide as my own. In the current version TD is acknowledged in the second paragraph as the original publisher of the guide and in the original it is acknowledged also at the beginning that I did not write it, 'a great Illyriad player' did. You'll also notice that there are credits to people who aided in the re-write and edit of the guide later in the thread. That you consider it a rip off is your own personal opinion and in many ways it is, but TD should never have removed it for a political power play in his meta game in the first place and I did tell him I would remove it when he reposted his. It is meant to be an aid to new players not as a tool in a ridiculous argument between two respected Illy players. TD is gone now though and he removed his guide and there now is a new version of what he originally published, so in your own words 'get over it.' As for your role play excuse its absolute nonsense. You as a person are responsible for both accounts and how you behave on one account directly reflects on the other. Its like saying I could go into GC and trash talk on my alt account and have nothing bad reflect on my main or go out and get drunk off my face one night and bad mouth players and blame it on the booze the next day! 'It wasn't me... It was the 10 pints of Guinnes!' Utter rubbish! 3. I let griz handle his message with you at the time although he did ask for advice. I thought it better if he dealt with that as opposed to getting dragged in myself at a time I was very busy. The second incident regarding your 'spitting' you disappeared immediately after you typed that and even STAR who you were backing up in her discussion about the guide turned on you at that point. I can only assume as you are still relatively young you have not ever been properly spat at. It is one of the most disgusting and insulting things a human being can do to another and as I said in my previous post, "Whilst I appreciate you like to role play you have to understand boundaries and which marks not to overstep." As for your little teary performance at the end there you see a threat, which fair enough there was, but the main point was the warning. Over the past few weeks your 'role playing' has become increasing pushing the bounds of what is acceptable, enough even to be commented on by SC. We all respect how you have turned yourself around but you are slipping back into bad habits and none of us want to see you meltdown again like you did with AtH. As a person you have much to offer the community but don't waste the opportunity and peoples respect for you by being a fool! ------------- Doesn't look good... doesn't look bad either! "Manananananananananan, so long Sir, and thanks for all the fish." ~ St.Jude |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 22:24
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don,don,don! the drama continues! Tune in tomorow for the next episode of The Young And The Manannan. ------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2011 at 22:34
Then you shouldn't be surprised when it gets sieged. If you're not going to give respect don't get angry when no one gives you any. Roleplaying or not, a disrespectful person is a disrespectful person. I think it's nice that apologized but you can't expect people to instantly forgive you just because you made an apology. You've said a lot of offensive things to people and when people don't instantly forgive you, it's to be expected. If you act hostilely to anyone who isn't convinced, you're only proving their point that you haven't changed. ------------- |
Posted By: Leungarific
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2011 at 11:24
Please note that the TD/Mana guide issue happened before the two of you joined Illyriad.
The new guide written completely by Mana has nothing to do with this at all. Please do not paraphrase when you don't know the story. By the way Kurfist, this revelation takes me by surprise as well =D I'd always thought ATH/El-T/Lionz were the same person. ------------- Whence we cometh foreth youeth, youeth willeth knoweth iteth. - AnalrotsAnIStinkAlot |
Posted By: Nokigon
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2011 at 18:33
| I would be interested to know how many of the people who apparently always knew you were ATH actually didn't. Anyway, I still don't know what happened with TD. Some stuff about LOJ claiming to be TD? Don't know, don't care. If Kurfie is willing to turn a new leaf, I welcome you with open arms. Figuratively speaking. |
Posted By: Kurfist
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2011 at 23:38
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I just want to say this with some accusations out there. I have not cheated. Cheating would be having a script, or a bot running my accounts, or have 4-9k accounts. I survived the accounts till my identity was discovered, for those whom new, you be looked down upon for actively expressing your beliefs and thoughts of people and try to level up an account in threat of siege. You'd message some dev's and petition for it to be closed and try again as well. I succeeded with CV/kurfie, and managed to prove that i can be a nice player, who will show his beliefs without grinding in the opposing players face in them as well. I never moved on from an account until I had the "sigh" ok kurfist" from the devs. so yeah, have a problem bring it up in here rather in GC ------------- Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin |
Posted By: Leungarific
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2011 at 02:32
LoJ claiming to be TD was more of an "I'm Spartacus!" moment in GC. It was taken completely out of context by the allegedly insulted meta-gamer TD, and the situation spiraled out of control, thanks in no small amount to our residential trolls. ------------- Whence we cometh foreth youeth, youeth willeth knoweth iteth. - AnalrotsAnIStinkAlot |
Posted By: G0DsDestroyer
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2011 at 05:26
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Might have been better to keep your past a secret....some things are better left dead... ------------- http://live.xbox.com/en-US/MyXbox/Profile?gamertag=G0DsDestroyer" rel="nofollow - Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin |
Posted By: Cemmag
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2011 at 20:50
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Leungarific did you even read my post its got nothing to do with the guide but more the ima role player comment. Personally i dont care who he was or what he did and it was more advice to avoid silly situations where someone will insult someone then go hide behind the i was in character excuse. Which is why IC/OOC marking is so important. Especially in Mixed chat channels. ------------- “I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you” |
Posted By: Leungarific
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2011 at 04:06
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^ - Removed your quote from earlier post. My apologies. However, if we all had to explain where and when we were role-playing, that would take the fun out of it. As many here know, the being who shares his personality with me, also controls Warrrgh Boss as well. Now, you just try talking to that silly ork. He'll drive you nuts. Heck, he drives me nuts. If anyone wants to talk business with him, they send a message to him (at their own risk, of course). I've never had to differentiate my style or my actions between myself and the idiotic ork. It's because I've decided not to be affiliated with him in any way other than the metaphysical (taking Illyriad as the real-world), quite similar to the way Kurfist differentiates between himself and Clavius. Having to repeatedly state that the two of you are different, sort of negates the role-playing factor. ------------- Whence we cometh foreth youeth, youeth willeth knoweth iteth. - AnalrotsAnIStinkAlot |