fighting crime
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
Forum Description: Got a great idea? A feature you'd like to see? Share it here!
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=1269
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 13:50
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: fighting crime
Posted By: Rugre
Subject: fighting crime
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 00:19
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I just got robbed. must have been several dozens of thieves. they nearly cleaned me out I strongly hate thieves in real life. it is a gutless, dishonorable and disgusting behavior that should be obliterated from this game Here are my suggestions: 1 - you can't trust thieves: if you use them it is unrealistic that they would return all goods they take to your village, they'd keep half for themselves or more, for sure. that way you could use thieves to hurt your enemies, not necessarily to benefit yourself 2 - you should have policeman to catch the thieves. i know the saying "takes one to know one" i myself dislike having to build thieves units, and would rather have another unit to police my village. 3 - every thief that is caught and sender is identified, that information should go on the profile of the player, like a criminal record: how many times he was caught stealing, and when was the last time. so that way you know what kind of neighbors, allies and enemies you have to deal with |
Replies:
Posted By: G0DsDestroyer
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 02:20
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huh, finally someone who actually sees things from my point of view.
I do indeed hate building thieves and have only used them 1 time on an inactive next to me to see what would happen, then i killed them. As far as policemen go i think that scouts could be used to a more effective measure by actually protecting the town against all types of diplomats, because a scout is obviously the best kind of diplomat informationwise and strengthwise or so it should be.
The thing about putting the theiving on the profile page would be putting a Karma meter on this game as i shall call it. It would reflect the actions of that player and how good or bad they are, but then of course you have the problem of deciding what is good and what is bad. But it is possible to have one.
------------- http://live.xbox.com/en-US/MyXbox/Profile?gamertag=G0DsDestroyer" rel="nofollow - Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin |
Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 03:20
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A pragmatist isn't going to be overly concerned with labels. Especially when the distinction is academic. Thieves take your stuff. Armies kill you, then take stuff no one happens to be around to own anymore. Thieves get the bad rap, but it's the effect that should concern you. Another perspective: when armies had terrible carrying capacities, I used thieves to raid inactives since they brought more home for the upkeep and traveled faster besides. It's just using the tools at your disposal. In one-player games like the Elder Scrolls series, I always play a thief and pilfer everything of value I can get my hands on--except stuff belonging to (living) NPCs I considered friends or allies. In a game like this, I farm inactives early in the game when those resources are crucial, and thereafter just support myself and maybe do some trade. Why the difference? Context. I care more about what I'm doing here because here I'm doing it to real people, and disusing people doesn't sit well with me. Luckily for me, an environment powered by real people brings about the real-world phenomen whereby sowing kindness reaps benefits that outweigh the apparent advantage of being cold and calculating without consideration for others. If you want to be angry at people for the fact that they are abusing you, I understand. But the method by which they exert that abuse is irrelevant. It is the treatment of people toward each other that is in question and the cause of conflict...not an in-game mechanic that is obviously sanctioned as "fair game," as evinced by its intentional inclusion in the game. ---- I do like the idea of players getting abstract level rap sheets, like number of times a player has raided an active player (without naming targets), number of different active players raided (without naming targets), number of times caught: stealing, blighting, sabotaging, assassinating, etc., running (rough and at least a few days out of date) totals of units killed or resources raided, and so on. I say without naming targets because that could potentially reveal sensitive information that compromizes the targets. Getting named recently or repeatedly suggests you're a desirable target for that activity, for example. Getting named at all with regard to military operation suggests your troops have been recently destroyed leaving you defenseless. The information that is important is that which helps establish a general reputation even before finding some connection via social circles and conflicts, and possibly mitigating the inaccuracies of nth-party human reporting down to reasonable levels. |
Posted By: G0DsDestroyer
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 03:57
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You raise some good points HonoredMule, the people who actually play this game are real people and should not be treated like crap. The method, however, i believe is somewhat relevant as when using diplomats there is no easy way to distingush the person thieving, asassinating, etc. When you are attacked you know who attacked you and you can do something about it. Usually threats to people who are stealing from you are not taken seriously by the thief and they keep doing it.
And correct me if i am wrong, but i believe that thieves can steal advanced resources as well as basic ones as opposed to the armies which can only take the 5 basic resources? So therefore theiving is also a worse way to hurt people who have no army, just the supplies to build one.
Oh and a way to see how much a person has used the diplomats other than scouts and spies is to look at a person's player ranking, it doesn't give an accurate judge of what they were using, but i believe most of them are from theives, not sure though. ------------- http://live.xbox.com/en-US/MyXbox/Profile?gamertag=G0DsDestroyer" rel="nofollow - Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin |
Posted By: Jerec Cross
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 05:34
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An interesting idea. Here are a few thoughts on the matter: The "police" units would probably be formed under a constable and watch system (perhaps a fitting unit name would be "Dogberries" as a little reference to Much Ado About Nothing.  )For some balance a city could not have constables and thieves, the city would have to choose one or the other. Thieves would probably not find it profitable to work in a city with constables and constables would not (we would like to think) want to serve a master who employs thieves. None of the other diplomatic units, namely saboteurs and assassins, would be affected by having constables as those units are more for war-time. As a trade-off a city with constables would perhaps enjoy a slight production boost (depending on the number of units) for having safer and happier citizens. A cap on the number of units could be placed based on population to keep this from causing an unbalance there, also too many police with too little to do could be a bad thing! Constables could also be more effective in detecting and catching thieves. Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter. BTW: I started this post before any of the other responses so this does not take any of that information in to account. |
Posted By: Rugre
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 12:00
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Great feedback from the 3 of you, made me go back and take notes to clarify better my view on this and see if we can get more consensual My outlook on this topic, as i've posted in another topic, is my concern over the fact that young kids are playing this game ... and this game is telling them stealing is ok, it is profitable and if done smartly, has little or no consequences So I do not want to be pargmatist on this @Honored, i've gone in to morality and civility mode. kids playing this will never lead armies, massacre villagers, raze cities to the ground ... but they can turn thiefs over night. We, as older people (I'm 35) have a duty to educate them, it is not There is a community of players, in this game, that from what i've read in the forums, and the respect other players show them, have arrived at top rank by having a fair and moral approach. This community is telling me the culture that rules this server and hence this game, wants it to depict higher and more noble values and actions then those seen in real life. So let's follow through @Jerec, love the idea a city with constable/police would have higher resource and pop growth then cities with thieves, would benefit all those who refuse to use them @G0Ds: we are indeed closely aligned on this matter. The method is relevant, if somebody is out to hurt me, I want and need to know who it is so I can fight back @Honored: hope you see our arguments in a better light. Glad you agree with the criminal record concept. This "rap sheet" should only count after the day it is implemented, the past would be water under the bridge. should not reveal id of victims. should only indicate stealing when detected (e.g. when you use it to farm inactive, would not be picked up). saboteurs i consider a valid military action, not criminal. assassination not sure. |
Posted By: Robertum
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 13:06
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Well as for the naming matter if diplomats have leaders like mil units in the near future then you can construct a diplomat army called police so there is no point to select having thieves or policemen. In real world both exist. As for the act of theft of course there should be a penalty for the actual thief (player) too, so a suggestion would be to calculate the diplomats arrested by the police so these would stay "in prison" (a tab that can be added in the castle) for a week with the player paying the penalty in basic resources per hour per diplomat to the victim. The carry limit for thieves would be better limited to something like 5 (for basic) & 10 (for advanced thieves) advanced resources per diplomat because I don't think that thieves should care for basic resources. regards
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Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 14:08
As HM pointed out, Stealing is wrong but murdering troops then taking resources are ok? Also if the kids are getting their morals from a game then there parents are not doing a very good job of raising their kids. There are consequences for stealing if you are caught, there are also consequences for not building a proper thief defense your going to keep getting robbed. |
Rugre wrote:Posted By: Ossian
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 14:52
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Jerec's post concerning the introduction of police or "dogberries" does have an interesting appeal, but the effect of it might not just effect thieves. You also have to take into account other aspects of diplomacy in Illyriad such as the assassin, saboteur and sleeper roles that are developed in the Consulate. This comes to close to Rugre's view of thieves and diplomacy. That it is dishonourable etc and should be "criminalised". Players need to accept that diplomacy is one the Paths in the game that is available and an integral part of Illyriad. They need to prepare for the fact that others may send thieves, assassins or sabs to your city to either weaken your defences or prevent you from building an offensive army ( intent honourably killing hundreds lol) from being formed. Sorry Rugre I don't see that it is any less dishonourable than the mass slaughter inflicted by large armies.
Sorry guys no dogberries for me.
 However, wiithout knowing the full parameters involved, I do feel that there may be a problem with the existing form of thief detection.
I believe that Norcaine was complaining to TC on global recently about the ineffectiveness of "interrogation" and "counter intelligence" functions in identifying the origin of thieves who are destroyed by warding spells. There does seem to be a real imbalance in favour of the "perpertrator" where a ward can effectively destroy two thirds of a party of thieves and yet the defender with all the proper research and units in place cannot identify the perpetrator. I would like to see this possible point of imbalance addressed
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Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 14:58
| The only thing that i have a problem with is when i fail a mission and there are unit losses i get 100% deaths that just doesnt seem realistic, If i send 1200 scouts to a city they may catch a bunch of them but some should be able to get away |
Posted By: Rugre
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 15:24
yes, parents should raise their kids better. Sad reality is they increasingly don't, and kids get it off TV, internet, online gaming etc... I can't explain my point better then this. The commanding of armies that will slaughter foes without a moment's thought, is something a young kid will never replicate in real life. However, kids can be influenced by this game (and others) to believe stealing is an acceptable and profitable lifestyle alternative. I am not saying the game would accomplish this on its own, but together with other environmental circumstance, there is a risk some of the kids playing this game will turn to criminal activities in real life Call me naive if you want, but I think nobody desires this, and between the more mature community of players and with a little GM cooperation, we have the strength to do and achieve better then this ... or moral obligation to try |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 18:57
Oh god...There is no proof that video games increase the violent actions of other people. Studies have shown that it increases violent thoughts but not actions. You're assuming that because a kid sends thieves out to steal resources from other players that that could cause them to go out and steal based on nothing. There's no evidance that this happens. The only cases where people actually go out and murder or steal because of video games are cases where the person is mentally unstable and should not have been allowed to play video games with such mature content. Video games are not the cause, mentally unstable people who probably would have done this kind of thing anyway or parents who don't parent their children are.
No, we don't. I never plan to have children so why on earth should I be expected to parent someone elses child? Regardless of how tight a parent holds onto their children they're going to eventually see mature content somewhere. The only 100% way to stop that is to remove all mature content from everything. That's simply not going to happen. I would also like to mention that the players themselves are not actively stealing, they are sending others out to steal for them, which is the exact same thing as sending out armies. Your argument here is weak, if thieves are to be removed because they could influence children then armies and any other mature content needs to be removed as well and I just can't see that happening. I understand that you dislike thieves but I feel your dislike for them is clouding your judgement and not allowing you to see things clearly. Moves, video games, book, etc are all going to have mature content in them. You can't remove that mature content just because some kid is going to see it. I think you're taking this situation too seriously.
Now, back on topic. 1) All this amounts to is decreasing the carrying capacity of thieves. Personally I don't see any balancing problems with thieves considering players have hundreds of thousands of resources in their city. The only times thieves are overly devastating is when a player is either very small or when the person sends thousands of them. 2) I feel this is a waste of an update. Thieves counter thieves, there's no point in adding a unit that does something another unit can already do just fine. If you don't want to use thieves, fine, don't use them. Just let them sit in your city to help protect it. If it bothers you that much then get a ward of intentions and set it on thieves, that should provide sufficient defense. Once again, I also recommend you join an alliance. This will also deter people from stealing from your cities and increase the chance to catch the person doing it. 3) I think this could be difficult to do properly. I use my thieves on a regular basis, often to steal from inactives in the area. Why should I get labeled as a thief for doing something everyone else does anyway? I feel this could cause people to incorrectly judge a player despite doing nothing wrong. |
Posted By: Rugre
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 19:32
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@Brids17: You say there's no evidence of games influencing kids behavior. I ask, where is the evidence it will not? This game has mature content ... too much mature? I dare not judge that. What i insist on is that with mature contents comes awareness to young kids that actions have consequences. I respect you don't want to "parent" someone else's chid. I'm not asking anyone to do this. I am asking visibility of stealing is greater, so those who give a damn about it can act if they want. On a side note, if you feel the misparenting or lack of induction of moral standards to children will never affect you, my personal view is to some extent you're refusing to face facts. when a society or communities deteriorates it's standards, all will feel it's effects, some more or some less, some sooner or some later I do dislike thieves. I've been robbed and I've caught thieves with my bare hands. Enjoyed neither one of the experiences. It is not clouding my judgment, just would like to see things better in this game, and that it helps to set examples. I know I am not alone. Why this approach to the topic finds such intense resistance from anyone is surprising to me. But I respect your opinion. Regarding 3: I personally advocate that you get a criminal record only when caught. so most inactives will be robbed and you would get away with it, no "rap sheet" |
Posted By: Noryasha Grunk
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 21:13
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hI vill hef hyu know, my "thiefs" are no mere criminals. Dey are state sponsored patriots villink to dedicate dere lives to damagink da henemies abilities to vage var upon us, by reducink dere materials stockpiles. Dese patrioits give dere lives so da henemies hef no swords or spears on vhich to impale our hyuong heroes on da front line. And hyu vish to... dirty dis valient act by institutink some sort of "criminal record" for dem? Hyu insult us, hyuman - and not only do hyu insult dese thieves individually, hyu insult dere very proffesion as employees of da state, and by extension my people as a whole. hI don't tink hI need to explain vot happens to dose dat insult my people. Hyu had better hope hyus is not in da southvest.... |
Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 22:19
Then I shall dare. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt. We call it FUD for short. While a cliche acronym, it represents a profound foolishness. We breed strife and strike out at "enemies" all in the name of what we do not know but fear to be true. Fear is not a tool of reason, but irrationality. And when utilized in the name of morality, it turns its followers into perpetrators of the very evils they profess to fight. Fear of theories grounded in nothing but free association and speculation has no business influencing yourself alone--and much less serving as grounds to dictate the creativity, design, or activities of others. I am a fundamentalist Christian and thus member of a the group most reviled for this very practice--most notably by a majority who call themselves such but have no concept whatsoever of their God's attitudes regarding even the things He genuinely does oppose. I say this so you will fully understand how familiar I am with this subject, even as I also tell you that such people are the greatest scourge of developed society. People who listen to FUD are nothing but sociopaths who have finely honed the most destructive of human capabilities: the power to condemn all matters causing personal distaste (whether truly immoral, hurtful or ungodly or not), and justify evils done against fellow man while remaining flawlessly blind to the evils within. You may think I speak in overstatement or hyperbole. I assure you I do not. Nor do I further argue the subject at hand with you, for you have already chosen assumption and emotion over observation and reason. You do this in elevating arbitrarily defined and contextualized labels over functional intentions of the user (predetermined causality), and again in appealing to uncertainty using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance - argument from ignorance . Given the topic of kids and gaming, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma - false-dichotomy backed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation - correlation as causation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence - anecdotal evidence are no doubt soon to come--and I often wonder what special mental power we adults gain that magically protects us from any real mental or emotional conditioning gaming may cause. Frankly, you do it yet again when you choose to identify one non-experiential fantasy exercise as more pattern-forming than another when both are equally disjoint from reality. The link between depriving another player of goods by a game-sanctioned mechanic and actually robbing someone in real life is extremely tenuous at best, but the pleasure some take from dominating others by any means connects military actions to many real-life activities such as bullying--of course with that link we cannot so easily ignore the correlation's true relationship with causation rooted in the heart of the child. On this foundation of appeal to emotion, no understanding can be constructed. Just be careful that your personal convictions do not become a crusade. Without proof of hurt--and sometimes there is some, but I seriously doubt you'll find it here in a game lacking even suspension of disbelief let alone domestic or personal violence, sexual experiences, or even rebellion against authority--you are nothing more than a moral vigilante in support of an entirely arbitrary standard. And I care not how carefully reasoned your deductions are--basing them on a false premise renders it all gibberish no matter how sensible or intelligent they sound. |
Posted By: bartimeus
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 22:23
No way, stealing is wrong, but it is a valuable diversity in this game. I personnaly have never sent any thieves out except on inactive (more carrying capacity than troops) but I really like it that you can attack someone without necesseraly having him know it's you... It is not something found in many game. In fact, I even like the trouble to find out who hit me when I'm the victime.
Good Idea, thieves should steal more and give less to their master, to better reflect the [selfishness/greed] of their profession.
How about a new diplo unit, the policeman, purely defensive, capable of defending against any type of diplo attack (althought not as good as each unit type).
Yet you outright ask for thieves to be removed from the game. And you claim that your hate of thief IRL doesn't blind you, but you also post stuff like this:
(notice how he switched from "IRL" to "the game".) But in the game you dont actually steal yourself, you only ask others to steal for you; would you suggest that a kid could be inspired to create a mafia network? troops make you steal rescource and crush your army so you are more vulnerable for some time. thieves steal some rescources and cause no other damage, but aren't always detected (I mean you dont always know who sent them.). which do you think is worst if you forget the "labels" ? Beside, thieves aren't that very powerful, you can easely protect yourself with a seeking rune. ------------- Bartimeus, your very best friend. |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 23:35
As mentioned here and in your other thread, there are ways of defending and finding thieves. Set up a rune, join an alliance, build lots of T1 thieves but don't use them, try to get on to see if you have any incoming diplo attacks when you can. There's way to find them or prevent them you just seem to be ignoring it. If I don't lock my door can I really get angry that a thief walked in the front door and stole everything?
I'm not saying they wont effect me, I'm saying it's not my job to do anything about it. If they parents aren't parenting their children, that's their business and there's really very little I can do about it. At most, I could try to get the child taken away, however I doubt someones going to lose their child because they let them play a mature video game.
You seem to be confusing real life with a video game. This games purpose isn't to make people become better people or deter violent or immoral behavior, it's meant for it's players to have fun. If the former is what you're looking for I'm afraid you're playing the wrong game.
Because you're ideas are 1) irrational 2) unbalanced and 3) needless. You got your stuff stolen by a bunch of thieves because you didn't have the proper defenses to prevent it and now due real life experiences you're getting worked up over a situation that really isn't as bad as you seem to think it is.
This could work, though I can still see problems with this. Not all inactives are those population 0 towns you see everywhere. I suppose they could make it so the target had to be active for it to count but that would pose a problem as well. When you're at war with people thieves are used strategically. This means if you're sending diplo attacks at enemies, you're going to build up a record. The record would have to state why you sent them, who the target was and various other details. This is why I can't see this working. In real life a criminal record is very detailed, real people file real reports. That's not possible in the game and so people would still get wrongly labeled. |
Posted By: kitmub
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 02:19
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@Rugre i dont think removing or lessening thief will prevent thievery in real life, because games is not the only reasons but also environment (social environment, financial, and most importantly our own weaknesses). this is a war game and those are strategic play style also seeing that you are only furious against theives and not to others (ie assassin = murder, sabotage = arsonist , war/attacking = genocide/mass murder) i am just saying those are also things that others may reflect but I AM NOT IMPLYING that they are just a possible thoughts. about the police thing maybe its possible that you have to choose whether its only (scout, police and adv police) or (spy, scout, theives, sabotage, assassin)
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Posted By: Rugre
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 11:59
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Several inputs to take in. I'll try not be long in response. @ Noryasha: Thieves being patriots that hurt enemies stockpiles: could be done exclusively by saboteurs. SE, lucerna, near mal motsha border @ Honored: my level of english was stretched to take in all your feedback :-) but it is appreciated. I am not in crusade. I would like to see this game take a higher moral ground on thievery, and send a more accurate message about actions and reactions related to this activity, here and in RL, to the younger players. The reason i took the time to write this much, is due to the fact I am under the impression that top players and alliance in this game do have a notion of fair play and positive influence of much higher calibre that i've seen in other similar games. If you disagree on my views I respect that and have put forward all my arguments, so i am not about to repeat them What I would appreciate is that everyone takes a look back and get back on topic, the analysis of enhancements suggested to thieves feature @Bartimeus - I'm not blinded. If I made a game like this, I would not have this feature. But I've come to the conclusion many like the feature, and it will not go away. So I evolved to trying to find a compromise, where players that walk away from it get a benefit in growth on having streets policed by police, not thieves, and player caught stealing get denounced for criminal action. Any case, thanks for getting back on topic @Brids17 - We'll never see eye to eye on this. I feel that it mostly my fault, I've been unable to transmit to you I am not trying to change the world, just would like that influence things so that in a little way this game could send a better message. I am not expecting you or anyone to either join in this, but if there are others like me out there, why can't we have tools and means to try and follow this? regarding 3 - in the rap sheet, i would look only at thieves as cause of dislike. if you steal from inactives, there should be a way of scouting and / or dispelling to determine if you will be named if you attempt theft @kitmub: only furious at thieves because it is not essential to a game like this, and sends a bad message. bullying also would be a danger, but is inevitable that it happens, here i am realist. besides, seeing the top alliances and training alliance stance on that, i feel the community has found its own way to regulate this. sabotage / assassination for me are military actions aimed at military targets, and here I agree with Brids17, only a very disturbed mind would find a parallel between this in game and duplicate in RL. failed miserably in keeping it short. sorry guys |
Posted By: scottfitz
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 17:32
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Thievery is morally questionable, so is assassination, spying, sabotage, raiding, warfare, bullying, and for that matter so is offering a highly disadvantageous market deal—which is why I do none of those things in real life. This is a game. Within the paradigm of the game, all those activities are acceptable, and whatever response I have to those behaviors is also acceptable.
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Posted By: Zangi
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 19:16
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So... I noticed you had thieves visit and clean you out.... And are trying to bring in real life morality into a browser game... |
Posted By: col0005
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 23:48
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For those of you trying to state the case that thieves in this game will encorage crime in real life, serioulsy, how stupid are you? There are far more graphic games where violence, stealing, armed robbery available for free on the net, not to mention the ones you have to pay for, I know this doesn't make it right, however in comparison, To suggest that thieves in this game, where we are detatched and can't see any of the events, could even possibly have a marginal impact is absurd.
Sure damage to enemy cities stocks could be done with sabotage, but hey, we have a lot of vandals out there, Oh looks like we'll have to get rid of those too, because young people will now associate vandalism with a good way to make a point.
Also with the record, this is also a terrible idea. I may never have attacked a neutral player, however i may have the worst record for thievery simply because I've used them in a war against another alliance. THis is also the most realic case as if you use thieves as a form of warfare you'll most likely get caught more often.
P.s. I have only attacked 1 player, who had posted that they had left the game on their profile.
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Posted By: Strategos
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 04:22
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I'd like to report a theft of my own. Each and every one of you, has stolen a little piece of my heart  ------------- Postatem obscuri lateris nescitis |
Posted By: G0DsDestroyer
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 04:28
Oh sorry
 , here you can have it back  ------------- http://live.xbox.com/en-US/MyXbox/Profile?gamertag=G0DsDestroyer" rel="nofollow - Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin |
Posted By: Thexion
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 15:19
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Just taking this discussion to more game related matter. Thousands of thieves sounds bit unrealistic, robbing city (especially if city has less population)without soldiers/scouts/population being able to do anything sounds bit unrealistic to me and I do hope there would be some better game mechanism for this. Especially when you cannot kill thieves expect with runes or defending thieves. I suppose people who have put lot of effort to building those thieves might disagree.
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Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 15:38
| that just peoples discretion on how to build their account, high diplo/low mil vice verso or equal build, and how you build to counter these people. coming up with different builds/strategies against different possibilities keeps things interesting |
Posted By: Grunvagr
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 16:31
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If it bothers you, stop it. Runes can specifically target thieves. I'm pretty sure if you kill thieves it will give you a mail message saying your rune triggered killing player x's thieves? Then you know who did it and your alliance can go punish them. You have to play the game the way you want to. If thieves utterly make you sick to your stomach, use the runes against thieves beforehand. I see your point of frustration, but you have to use the tools at your disposal. What bothers me the most in the game, actually, is sally forth. I can place a town on favorable terrain and build massive lev 20 walls. But if I am sieged I have to leave this fortress to sally forth onto likely unfavorable terrain and leave the protection? That makes utterly no sense and frustrates me as a player. :/ |
Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 17:37
| It's unfortunate, but actually does make sense. It's exactly why siege works and was extensively employed whenever an occupying force could be supplied. It would be nice, however, if a city's underlying terrain affected siege weapons' to-hit chance. I don't at all approve of the wild notions players have of upsetting the way food and gold is used ("feeding" the troops you're already paying richly), but there could be operational overhead added to the upkeep of soldiers occupying locations other than cities (thus excluding units in transit and units in defense of allies). With gold sinks coming, that would make offensive war appropriately expensive. |
Posted By: Grunvagr
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 18:41
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I just get the feeling castle walls mean very little when it comes to defense. (specifically siege defense) And that seems wrong, imo. |
Posted By: GM Gryphon
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 20:43
Now I need to quickly decontaminate myself... ;)
But seriously, guys, if you think thieving is devious, just wait until you see some of the higher order diplo skills SC has in store for you coming down the pike... (imagine conducting thieving raids where, if you get caught, you can frame someone else and other similar nefariousness...)
(Gryphon rubs his hands in gleeful anticipation)
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Posted By: bartimeus
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 21:41
This is getting very very exciting... ------------- Bartimeus, your very best friend. |
Posted By: fluffy
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 21:58
woo! (to both Strat and gryphon) |
Posted By: col0005
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 23:09
| I would still like to see sally forth removed from the game and replaced with hourly Assaults from the siegeing army. It would make a lot more sense from a gameplay point of view. |
Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2010 at 23:35
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It really wouldn't. The whole point of siege is not to waste your troops against fortifications--in the game every bit as much as offline. If you don't want to be a victim, exercise higher level strategy and strike first (politically as well as militarily) so you can choose the operational parameters. You're not supposed to be safe in your complacency. And your not going to actively choose disadvantage either, so why then should your enemy? Removing even more attacking advantage is just asking for stalemate and atrophy. Attack-favoring mechanics work and work very well. Whether cold war or actual conflict, stuff happens in this game, and that's the whole point. It's really quite unworthy of our time and effort when that is not the case. |
Posted By: mario omega
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2010 at 00:00
| well as the piont that was discused at the first page of the forum i thoght diplomatic units in real live were like senators peaceful people not thifs assasins or saboutagers |
Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2010 at 00:10
| That is one side of diplomacy with ambassadors and talking, then there is the cloak and dagger side of diplomacy. |
Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 14:54
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Complete obliteration of orcs as a race is completely uncalled for. I know every young orc starts out as an urchin and a pickpocket, scavenging for the littlest scraps or food every day and living a very pathetic lifestyle. But all that changes when the troops arrive home. They always turn their enemies into the most flavorful soups. Plenty of it for the entire city. They forget they are renting an empty lot from their chief to sleep on. They forget they don't have any worldly belongings. They forget that only those hired by the state have a place to stay and food to eat. They know that, some day, the city will have a place for them. They could be hired to become professional thieves. They could get their own army of screeching goblins to interogate those that would steal their soup. They could become one of the heroes who bring food back to the city from a land far away. Food for those unfortuante enough not to be fed.
You would take away my citizens only joy, only hope? You would murder my children, just because they aren't strong enough to take from the bigger, stronger orcs? You wish they to die in the kobold pits because they tried to get food by brute strength rather than cunning?
What kind of monster are you? ------------- I am not amused. |
Posted By: Zangi
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 15:41
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I condone the genocide of elves, but that doesn't mean it would be an easy thing. Let them try that on the orcs. See what happens. Anyways... where did this come from? |
Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 21:06
http://www.illyriad.co.uk/orc-race.aspx - http://www.illyriad.co.uk/orc-race.aspx
Its assumed that all orcs are thieves. Obliteration of thieves = obliteration of orcs and/or their children. ------------- I am not amused. |
Posted By: Kumomoto
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 21:32
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I absolutely am against exterminating The Orcs. They are incredibly useful. After all, if we did that, then how would we get our latrines dug? |
Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 21:46
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You would have to hire Dogberries to do it for you. Sorry Kumomoto :( ------------- I am not amused. |
Posted By: Zangi
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 21:50
| I thought humans were the experts on 'diplomacy'.... |
Posted By: Strategos
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 23:13
You'd be suprised at how persuasive an orc with a very long, sharp spear can be. And I know several elves who'd love to go into a lengthy debate on pens being mightier than swords. All in all each race excell at diplomacy, if in their own unique way. ------------- Postatem obscuri lateris nescitis |
Posted By: Zangi
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 01:58
| How do Dwarves equate here? They are slow.... |
Posted By: Grunvagr
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 02:02
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I wouldn't call a Dwarf slow! ...when they figure out what you meant by it (5 days later) they'll be mad!  |