Trade v2 - an Introduction / Heads up
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URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=1238
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 14:22
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Topic: Trade v2 - an Introduction / Heads up
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Subject: Trade v2 - an Introduction / Heads up
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 17:03
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Hi All, INTRODUCTION TO TRADE v2 - WHAT, WHEN & HOW We've talked about the enhancements to the Trade system (Trade v2) for a while, and as it grows ever more imminent, it's time to give you all a heads-up so you can start planning for what it will mean. These are the most important facets of Trade v2: MONETISATION OF THE ECONOMY At the moment, the Illyriad economy exists as a barter system: you swap some of A, B and C with another player for X, Y and Z. Trade v2 moves the gameworld to a monetised economy: where you buy (or sell) A, B, and C in exchange for Gold. All Trade v2 transactions will require Gold as the mechanism of payment. Players will still, of course, be able to swap goods if they wish, but the game will only enforce the sale of goods, not the bartering of goods - bartering will be at each players' risk. The most obvious benefit of the Monetisation of the Economy is to set a particular value against each item, and a coherent way to assess relative worth. To explain: if on the marketplace today you trade 4000 Wood, 20 Swords and 4 Siege Blocks for 20000 Clay, 2000 Gold and 15 Bows then it's impossible to tell the relative worth of each item. How much Clay do you get for a Sword? How many Bows do you get for 10 Wood? People currently accept trades because they are good value for them at that moment in time. But by saying that 1 Sword is worth 7 Gold and that 1 siege block is worth 146 Gold (or whatever the local market - ie the players - chooses as the value), you can assess relative worth and whether each and every particular trade is good value or not *against the marketplace*. You can, of course, choose to accept a more expensive deal than the current marketplace would suggest is the correct value for other reasons (such as proximity to your city, the traders' alliance affiliation etc). Monetisation makes the market more efficient. BUY ORDERS AND SELL ORDERS At the moment, when you wish to trade in the marketplace, you say "I am selling A, B and/or C for X, Y and/or Z", and it is up to another player as to whether they accept your trade. With Trade v2, buying and selling are split into two separate processes. You can say "I am buying Wood for 4 Gold per Wood"... and you can simultaneously say "I am selling Wood for 5 Gold per Wood". In the Trade interface buy and sell orders will be separated out. PRICING The marketplace will be driven entirely by player interaction: it is up to each and every player to set their own buy price and sell price for each item they wish to trade, and you (the market) will set the prices. You can only, however, change prices or cancel a trade order once every 5 minutes. Prices at player towns (in the same way as the current marketplace works) are set entirely by the player who owns the town. However, at hubs there will be some "market intervention" in the pricing of items in the form of particular Factions placing orders to either buy or sell items at the hubs that they own. The prices they set will be driven by their own levels of supply and demand, as well as influenced by local, regional and (to a smaller extent global) prices. For example: if a Faction that uses a lot of Infantry unit has recently lost a lot of troops, it will want Swords. It will place some "buy orders" for these swords, or will buy up some of the sell orders that other players have placed at the hubs already. However, the faction isn't stupid - it'll also look and see (depending on how desperate it is for the swords) whether it can't pick them up cheaper elsewhere, perhaps from another player nearby (or another Faction) that it's friendly with; and it will also react to changing market conditions. We generally want players to be competing economically against other players, not against the computer-controlled faction, and so faction prices are likely to be generally established at less profitable levels than player prices. TAXATION Yes, we know you hate taxes in RL, but we want to give you an opportunity to hate them ingame as well. Every buy and sell transaction will be taxed in Gold. Tax will be paid on the transaction by the recipient of the Gold, and it will be removed at source during the transaction. At Towns, the taxation percentage will be fixed and substantial - this is the cost of having an impartial (computer-controlled) Customs, Revenue and Excise man at your town to ensure that the exact quantity of goods you buy or sell is, actually, dispatched to the other town. At Trade Hubs, the taxation percentage will fluctuate according to your standing with the Faction that owns the Hub. There will be minimum taxation amounts in both cases. VISIBILITY One of the key facets of economies (in RL as well as virtual economies) is the availability of information about supply/demand and pricing. Our current marketplace is globally visible: if a player based in Qarosslan puts up a trade it can be seen (and accepted) by a player at the other end of the world in Trome. Trade v2 limits trade visibility. Towns will be able to see all of the trades in the region in which they exist. We understand that many players will live on a borderline with another region, and so they will also have a (cross-border) radius around their city wherein their trades will be visible. We will be introducing new trade technologies whereby a player can extend the "visibility" of their town's buy and sell orders. We do understand that players will want the ability to buy, sell and otherwise participate in trade in regions outside of where they currently reside. This is where we introduce the Trader unit. TRADER UNITS This is a new unit that players can build. The number of Traders you can build will depend on your marketplace level (and existing trade technologies) that you have researched. Think of them as the trade equivalent of Military Commanders (and yes, we have plans for them to gain XP and be levelled up in the future, with leveling up influencing eg taxation, caravan speed, chance of blockade running etc). Like Military Commanders, each city will be able to have 5 of them. Trader units can be sent to remote trade hubs where you can use them, instantly (ie not requiring messenger units) to conduct trade on your behalf. They will be able to buy and sell at a hub *as if you were there*. Caravans will continue to be able to move without requiring a trader unit to accompany them. Trader units can only interact with hubs, not other player towns. Trader Units will have a carrying capacity of 100. CARAVANS & CAPACITY We had originally thought about introducing "volume" to items. There are lots of good reasons: why should a single Sword be the same as a Siege Block when you move it? Shouldn't these items have "volume" so that they take up more space? And doesn't that then mean you could introduce different caravan types with different capacities (in terms of volume)? We thought so too. However, if we introduced "volume" for items as an ingame concept, it would mean that every time you wanted to send a mixed set of items from A to B, you would have to load them in caravan(s) through a drag-and-drop mechanism that would swiftly become tedious (ie this caravan has a capacity of 1,200 and I have 2 siege blocks that take up 900 space in it, and so I can add a further 300 clay etc). However (and we devs here are gamers too) we decided that this concept - whilst realistic - doesn't pass our internal "fun test": if it's not fun, we shouldn't do it. We can't tell you the number of times we've screamed at a game because we're forced to do tedious "inventory management", and we wanted to avoid that here. Equally, if we introduced different carrying capacities for different caravan types (fast caravans with small capacity vs slow caravans with massive capacity)... then we're in exactly the same situation: not passing the fun test because you would be forced to "load up" your caravans (of different types/capacities) when you move your stuff. So, we're going to continue to say that everything ingame takes up the same space. If your caravan(s) can carry 1500 Swords it can also carry 1500 Siege Blocks (which is how things currently stand). There is one exception here: Gold. Gold will not consume any volume/space in a caravan. You will be able to send Gold (in unlimited amounts) anywhere in a single caravan. Further down the road we may well introduce some form of banking system for sending money between locations without the need to transport it. Caravans will start to cost Gold upkeep of 3 Gold per hour per caravan. We are going to entirely remove the limit on the number of caravans a city can have - you can have as many as you can afford. We will add an ability to destroy caravans (similar to destroying military units you no longer want) to the interface so that players who do not want the additional upkeep costs can opt out of them. INDEPENDENT MOVEMENT ORDERS At the moment, all your trade interactions consist of an outbound and return journey. You send caravans out to do something (deliver goods, or harvest resources) and when they've completed their order, they instantly turn round and return to your town. With Trade v2 we're decoupling the outbound/return cycle of caravans at trade hubs, so you will be able to give your caravans orders to travel to a trade hub and wait (for further orders). Your trader unit will then be able to issue new orders to the caravans (such as "move on to another hub, carrying X", or "deliver these goods to this city, and come back"). If you do not have a trader unit in the hub, you can still recall your caravans to come back to their home town via messenger. The outbound/return standard cycle will continue to operate for town-to-town trade as well as resource harvesting. TRADING IN TOWNS This is the way we currently trade - between towns. This will still be supported (although with Gold as the purchasing currency rather than bartering goods). The system will work in much the same way as it currently does: when a deal is accepted, caravans from both players will leave at the same time - one player will carry Gold, and the other player will carry goods. The player carrying the goods will have to supply sufficient caravans to service the trade (as is currently the case). The player carrying the Gold will have to supply a single caravan only to carry the Gold, regardless of the amount. Trade caravans will - until we introduce pathfinding, unit interception and Faction AI, at least - be safe from attack unless one or other city is under blockade by another player. At the point we introduce pathfinding, unit interception and Faction AI, we will also allow Trade Caravans to be supported/escorted militarily. TRADING AT TRADE HUBS This is where things get different. Trade Hubs are Faction-run cities scattered across the map. You can see their locations on the static map uploads/16/region_faction_map.gif - here (and when the new Illyriad UI arrives they will be much clearer and visible on the ingame map as well). Trade Hubs are essentially huge repositories for goods. They are invulnerable and non-blockadable. At a Trade Hub you can not only trade resources but also units. Yes, players will be able to buy and sell military units, diplomats, settlers etc. Before the inevitable threadnaught begins regarding racial differentiators, let me quickly add that units *not of your own race* in your armies or unit pool will cost double upkeep. Think of it more as "hiring mercenary units" from other races. To trade at a Trade Hub you will need to have a Trader Unit stationed there. Your Trader Units will only be allowed to trade at a Trade Hub if you have a standing with the owning Faction of more than -35. You will also need sufficient caravans at the Trade Hub to carry away the goods you purchase at the hub - however very trade-focused players will also be able to rent varying amounts of warehouse space from the Faction. Renting space will be cheaper in the long run than using caravans as temporary storage warehouses. Trading carried out at Trade Hubs will be taxed by the owning Faction - however the Faction tax will be substantially less than town-to-town taxation, and the amount taxed will also vary according to your current standings with the Faction. Every amount of tax paid at a Trade Hub will improve your standing with the owning Faction, and the more tax you pay the more your standings improve. FUTURE PLANS FOR TRADE We have future plans for Trade and Trade Hubs. As Trade v2 allows Independent Caravan Movements and routing we want to provide a mechanism whereby logistically-minded players could run paid "Freight/Hauling" operations on behalf of other players. The security of the goods to be carried would be insured via up-front collateral held in escrow. We also - especially once Crafting is introduced to the game - want to implement an Auction mechanism. With the current selection of resources and units, this doesn't make enough sense to do now, but once Crafted and Rare items are ingame we'll revisit this. We also very much like the idea of Guilds and Banking (especially at a player-run level) and are looking closely at these possibilities. Finally, it might be possible in the future for Alliances to set up and run their own trade hubs - perhaps in the Alliance Capital City. These would however be massively expensive endeavours, and would definitely not get the "invulnerability" of a Faction-run hub. TIMING soon (tm) We're into the final stretch on things, and so it is highly likely to be this month (November). The release will be phased, as we have to retire the existing marketplace system and return orders to the players, and we'd like to give you notice of this before arbitrarily cancelling your current trade orders (!) We won't be seeding Faction buy and sell orders on the markets until we have a better idea of where item pricing has generally settled, so this seeding will happen after the release of Trade v2. Best wishes, GM Stormcrow |
Replies:
Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 17:37
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are you planning on changing the way we get gold or is it going to stay pop*4*tax will caravans be a tradeable unit
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Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 18:44
Hi TS, No, no current plans to change the way you get Gold (from town taxation, gold resource square harvesting, theft, killing NPCs, quest rewards, trade etc). Yes, caravans will be a tradable unit. Best, SC |
Torn Sky wrote:Posted By: Dwarmin
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 19:21
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Sounds very promising! It will be nice to actually spend gold on things... Though I'm still salivating for the crafting implementation...
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Posted By: Zangi
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 19:37
| Upkeep is still paid for units that you put up for trade? |
Posted By: Smoking GNU
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 19:51
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Heh, i still have 53 mill gold from the other city i took over (in siege) from another player. I guess i'll be using that then to buy loads of crap from a trade hub i know about (when that is introduced) I'll buy everything empty. Also the unlimited caravans deal, good idea. now we'll be able to trasport a lot more resources where we want them (alliance member in need and so on) |
Posted By: Brids17
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 19:53
| Is taxation being implemented to filter gold out of the economy? I can't see any other reason for it unless you wanted to annoy your players. =P |
Posted By: Smoking GNU
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 20:06
| Or increase your standings with a faction. I see the taxes to a Hub as for this purpose only. Also for siphoning off excess gold, yes. |
Posted By: col0005
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 20:13
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Sounds fantastic, two questions though; Firstly will unlimited caravan numbers be available at level 20 only? If not is there going to be anything that will give a point to marketplace levels that do not coincide with a research option, ie lower upkeep?
Secondly with the caravans not instantly returning from hubs would it be possible to make this optional? Ie a check box for instant return. Alternatively if there is no trader at the hub then the caravans will instantly return?
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Posted By: col0005
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 20:26
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Oh and GNU you should really be able to see the point in taxes considering you can pretty much buy out a hub.
Prices are not static, If I buy all the swords from a hub then prices go up. I sell them back, prices go down, I buy them back, etc, etc Infinite trade income for doing nothing.
Oh also with the weight of resources how about making it so that all advanced resources have a greater weight than basic, and that this weight applies to thieves. Afterall one cow is far more valuable than even 300 wood. Therefore 1 theif can only steal 1 book or 1 cow, not 50
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Posted By: Zangi
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2010 at 20:28
Usually, its the lower level players who need more caravans due to capacity restrictions. I believe SC means for the unlimited-ness to apply to all levels. |
Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 00:14
I don't think it will be easy for the economy to stabilize without the Factions "removing" gold from the player base by selling us their goods. As it stands now there are many players that have huge sums of gold piled up, as demonstrated by GNU's post, and this gold is just going to keep trading hands till it finds a place to be spent were it does not immediately move back into the market. Though after it is released the market may stabilize, but when you introduce the Factions ability to trade it will upset again IMO as all this gold is taken from the market the inflated prices will drop.
 i had heard you mention the possibility of the gold taxation system changing so just wanted to make sure and the caravans being tradeable seems exploitable or very strategic depending how you look at it. |
Posted By: Arya
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 04:21
Do we get a teaser of what the new Trade tree will look like?  For example, right now Cartels is a requirement for Caravanserai. Cartels is useless in Trade v2, so will it be replaced with something? And what happens if a player has Caravanserai researched already and a dependency is removed, or will it just be bumped up a tier?
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Posted By: col0005
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 05:03
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I'd assume Caravanserai will be +1 trader or something?
I assume you've already thought of this, but how much gold can a caravn harvest? Infinit gold capacity would suggest that a caravan can harvest untill gold runs out, bumped, messenger etc
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Posted By: WarePhreak
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 12:36
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I'm going to miss the bartering system. I understand it won't work well with the hubs, but is there any way it can be kept for between players? maybe with a set taxation? With the current system we have had a way to create our own monetary value system and the trade hubs will force that to actually come about.
Also when you send a caravan out will a player be able to give it automatic return orders and not require a messenger if this option is used?
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Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2010 at 12:52
Yes indeed.
Heh yes. Taxation is a critical part of the deflationary balance to keep some checks and balances on an ingame economy with "infinite" resource supply. As Gnu mentions, taxation also provides a catalyst for developing player/Faction relationships.
Yes to your first. Various pre-existing technologies will be changing, and new trade research technologies will be being added. The long and short of it is that Marketplace Level will dictate the number of caravans you can have, but once you have a L20 Marketplace and the correct research, the number of simultaneous caravans then becomes unlimited. On your second question, yes absolutely. Caravans will continue, by default, to return automatically. However if you have a Trader Unit present in the caravan's destination hub, you will have the option to assign the caravan to "Hold Position Until Further Orders".
Not quite yet, Arya. But soon (tm)
Yes, harvesting gold resources will only require one caravan.
We're considering the possibility that the (later) Auction system might allow bartering of goods as part of a fixed-price contract. We're also investigating the possibilities of long-term contracts with automation behind them (ie Player A supplies X Wood to Player B every day, in return for a fixed price/barter). But this won't be in place immediately by any means. Players can always barter goods directly with each other simply by dispatching caravans; the difference is that this facility won't be enforced by game mechanics.
Yes, absolutely - see my reply to col0005 above. We don't want to increase micro-management at all for pre-existing movement functions. Best, SC |
Posted By: Perryakai
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2010 at 04:07
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Im excited about Trade v2. As a player who gets gold and has trouble making the goods he needs, I think this will work with me, particularly when I just started my 2nd city. Im not wild about the caravan upkeep tax, I may have to demolish some caravans as obviously i wont need all the ones i got now. im also looking forward to being able to hire mercenary units. just out of curiousity, will the devs allow us to eventually see our military units? Ive no clear idea what my troops really look like, so this would be a nice feature to do. I hope y'all get this done soon. BTW, did i mention i think this game is waaay cooler than LOTR? I tried an account there and their site had kittens with my info, so im sticking with y'all. i reccomend this site to anyone who thinks LOTR is da bomb; they bleeped you. Ha ha. Cheers.
perryakai
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Posted By: Ramasa
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2010 at 11:09
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This all sounds very much like the player market in Eve online. This is a good thing.
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2010 at 11:22
| The devs play (or have played) Eve. You'll probably find a lot of influence from it as well as some good classic RTS and turn-based games. |
Posted By: King EAM
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2010 at 16:27
I am looking forward to it as well. 
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Posted By: G0DsDestroyer
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2010 at 03:59
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What about the armies? Can we tranfer them city to city, move the upkeep cost from one city to another, along with the entire army, instead of just occupation? ------------- http://live.xbox.com/en-US/MyXbox/Profile?gamertag=G0DsDestroyer" rel="nofollow - Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin |
Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2010 at 17:36
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When a Trader unit is stationed at Faction Hub Z from city A, will A's trader be able to give orders to caravans from City B or will B also have to send a trader to Z to get hold orders and such. I could see this going either way, if A was out of caravans to trrade with B could trade with Z if trader origin didnt matter or just send caravans to A to send to Z if origin does matter. The other thing would be players putting new cities next to Factions out of their region/trade radius and using its trader to see the deals from larger cities that have the van capacity and tech to trade
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Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2010 at 13:04
| also will settlers be tradeable |
Posted By: Zangi
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2010 at 15:18
| I may actually want to get into the business of selling settlers. You get them 'now' for a nice markup, or you can wait. |
Posted By: Torn Sky
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 15:22
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A few more questions Will diplomatic units from different races cost double upkeep and will the get there own slot on the diplo screen? Im just curious if i buy different races can i stack them together to send in one trip or will they each be separate like the T1-T2 are now. Also if i send a Trader to a faction hub can other players see that i have a trader there and is there a way to remove other players Traders from a hub that you "control"? |