HIDE THE HUBS
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
Forum Description: Got a great idea? A feature you'd like to see? Share it here!
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=10944
Printed Date: 16 Apr 2022 at 17:22
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: HIDE THE HUBS
Posted By: Sif
Subject: HIDE THE HUBS
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 09:57
|
Hi , I believe
that HAVING visable 2 central HUBS is bad for the trading experience of the game having visible
2 central hubs make thing much easier for everyone but is it any realistic?,
does not it cut from the fun of the trading? , what is a trader at illyriad ?
So my
proposition is to Hide and Close for a period both central hubs ( Centrum and Hope Ridge ), and make visible
by default only the closer HUB . I think
that the period is ideal since some coding will take place for faction play. Ofcorse something
has to be done for all these res that are stored by the DEVS.
I think it would
be for the fun of all and make trading really interesting and for indivigoul
traders and for trading alliances . I will
give a meaning to trading the player that know where is the demand and where is
the interest , could grabe opportunities by his knowledge that other have not. The game should
not be easier by lowering the level of difficulty but by cutting micromanagement/timespending IMO. |
Replies:
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 10:38
|
It would only really affect newer players - which is bad. Centrum is the main point of trade - thus everbody needs access there later on. In addition - why waste dev time when they could implement something useful instead?
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 10:53
|
yes the only problem i see is that the new payers will lose some money by selling the cotters stafs to a lower price .....(since they will have less information) .......but giving an reallistick form to an aspect of the game it migth make it more interesting for new playiers trying to achieve beter sale rates that would make the game more interesting for them so it will benifit by this way ( its a game the point of it is to be exiting and interesting NOT easy) it would affect all the playier . well its matter off how good trader you are when you sale to sale to increase prise where there is demand and to buy at low price .. ==>> which is not happenig since we all trade to the centrum . ofcorce you need access to the place that are cheap to buy staffs but with my proposition you have to search and find it each time or else lose some money on the advance of a real trader. i don t think is somethink that need much coding . but i accept that if it need much other matters sould be first priority of the DEVS |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 11:12
|
All players use (or should use) traders at some point as trade hubs are really powerful. For someone already having traders your change means that they would have to move one to either Centrum or Hope Ridge. Which means they aren't really affected. The knowledge and use of trade hubs is already exciting and interesting. Your suggestion doesn't change anything with that. It only makes it worse/annoying for newer players. A new player teleports to BL with his tenadril. No access to Centrum anymore and traders at that point are still far away. Exciting change
 |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 11:24
|
in real life is a matter of how good trader you are to find cheap prodacts to sell them expencive to those that need them. in illyriad you don t even have to be a trader you just buy and sell from centrum. so everyone is a trader but not a trader in real. i also say CLOSE the two HUBS for some period so to be forced everiboody to go a bit more local . it will not be annoying for new playier they will just lose some money by selling their stafs a bit cheaper in advance of some real trader as and the old playier will . i agree is interesting the HUBS anyway . but do you doupt about where you sould sell/buy your stafs ? or you know by default where you sould ?
|
Posted By: Bolism
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 12:21
|
Short answer no definitely no ... Longer answer: 1. We are in a game the "real life" argument doesn't make any sense ... Some example? A town of 30k people with 60k troops ?!? That argument has no value 2. Especially with the factions on the horizon, and the fact that some are hostile, I wouldn't want a new player to not have access to a viable hub because of that. 3. Whatever you do if someone is interested in trading the first answer in gc is gonna be Centrum ... And you can't fight that. I got a bigger problem with trade in illyriad, and it's mostly with "traders". To take your argument, if you want to grow a market in real life you gotta work for it. So if you want your close by bub to be active, put some buying order (not selling) with higher price than centrum/hope ridge, that way you might advertise and get some more people active there. The illy trader has in my view a really short term eye on profit and after investing 500millions in buying orders in hope ridge, when they started, I really saw that most "traders" just put selling orders there and didn't try to make it more active. In the end all my business is done in centrum: convinience convinience convinience ... That was my useless chatty self... Have fun |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 12:31
Centrum has most trades but the profit is low. Smaller hubs on the other hand usually have better offers - thus a good trader is doing the same.
Depending on the hub there is already quite a bit of trade going on on the smaller hubs - usually basic/advanced resources. Depending the the area some Players/alliances have a lot of storage in some hubs. I have 5-6 traders in the hubs around me and trade there. In a game with rare and limited resources it doesn't make sense for those trades to do outside of Centrum. As it is in real life - you are not going to your small local market to buy some e.g. raw diamonds or raw oil. Instead for those rare resources you go to a central market - as there are more potential buyers and thus people that might want to buy your rare resource. Thus Centrum (or some other hub) is always going to be the main point of trade.
Or they want to craft some gear but cannot buy the resources needed for that. Crafting after all has quite some profit margin (and as an example i am bought some expensive crafts from smaller players).
As i mentioned above - it depends on the resource. As in real life it doesn't make sense to sell some rare stuff in your local hub. But it makes sense to sell them in Centrum. On the other hand it makes sense so buy/sell basic/advanced resources at your local hub. And not at Centrum - as the distance is way to far away. The main reason why some smaller hubs are dead is because we don't have enough players - especially in some of the BL areas. But your suggestion isn't going to fix/improve that. On the contrary - it makes it worse.
|
Sif wrote:Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 13:11
|
Centrum has most trades but the profit is low. Smaller hubs on the other hand usually have better offers - thus a good trader is doing the same. ===>>>> this is not a full trader is a semi trader since he know without any skill where are the cheaper stafs to buy and the rare exmple that someone is buying from other hubs exept the centrum is because the prices of centrume are known to everyone by default since centrum is visable so the buier know the prices are close to cheap. I have 5-6 traders in the hubs around me and trade there====>>> could you be a competitive trader with only 5-6 traders if the stafs from centrum was spread at hubs??? In a game with rare and limited resources it doesn't make sense for those trades to do outside of Centrum.===>>> indeed since there is centrum , i say what if there was not As it is in real life - you are not going to your small local market to buy some e.g. raw diamonds or raw oil. Instead for those rare resources you go to a central market - as there are more potential buyers and thus people that might want to buy your rare resource. Thus Centrum (or some other hub) is always going to be the main point of trade. ===>>>> yes but to know where is the centrum and if there is only one or two is matter of a skilled trader if it was not set by default and known to everybody where it is. Or they want to craft some gear but cannot buy the resources needed for that. Crafting after all has quite some profit margin (and as an example i am bought some expensive crafts from smaller players).===>>>> no they will be able to find to their local hub what they need to be able to craft much closer to them comper to now since a trader will want to take advantage of them since they will not be able to see the fixed price at the centrum As i mentioned above - it depends on the resource. As in real life it doesn't make sense to sell some rare stuff in your local hub. But it makes sense to sell them in Centrum. ====>>> in real life if you are not a real trader you buy expensive stuffs from the local HUB if you are a real trader you know or you think you know where the cheap stuffs are ( where is the centrum ) The main reason why some smaller hubs are dead is because we don't have enough players - especially in some of the BL areas.====>>>> no its because you know the prices at the central market so you want to buy close to them and the person want to sell knows that you know the prices at centume and that can not take advantage of you and selling increasing price so he dont sell at local As and in real life of the medevial era the trader was not a transporter but take advantage of the fact that you don t know how much he buy what he sell s you |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 13:24
|
1. We are in a game the "real life" argument doesn't make any sense ... Some example? A town of 30k people with 60k troops ?!? That argument has no value===> well and in real life you need troops so it has value for me 2. Especially with the factions on the horizon, and the fact that some are hostile, I wouldn't want a new player to not have access to a viable hub because of that.===>>> tottaly agree with you on that but what i suggest dont affect that ... as i say the all player must have access to the closer to their capital HUB 3. Whatever you do if someone is interested in trading the first answer in gc is gonna be Centrum ... And you can't fight that.===>>>> for now i agree but what would be your anscer if there was not centrum what would be the centrum in that case / you would not know for sure exept if you had 150 traders . So if you want your close by bub to be active, put some buying order (not selling) with higher price than centrum/hope ridge, that way you might advertise and get some more people active there.====>>> why to spend my money on this??? whats the profit for me ?? The illy trader has in my view a really short term eye on profit and after investing 500millions in buying orders in hope ridge, when they started, I really saw that most "traders" just put selling orders there and didn't try to make it more active. In the end all my business is done in centrum====>>>> i could not be more AGREE with that .... thats what i trying to say .. you wanted to be a trader and you could not since everyone know the prices at the certum
|
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 13:46
Then the community would find a hub that does essentially the same as Centrum. Bigger alliances have dedicated trade hubs - the same would happen with all of Illyriad. Why? Because its easier, convenient and efficient.
They won't. I think you are not getting the problem. There are a lot of rare resources in Illyriad with maybe 5 people or less supplying it. And maybe 5 people buying them. Splitting it up all over Illyriad does not work.
I was not talking about expensive stuff but rare/specialized stuff. It doesn't make sense to sell raw diamonds at the local farmer market where nobody is going to buy it.
We are in a modern age now. Its easy to get information. With or without Centrum.
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 14:14
|
Then the community would find a hub that does essentially the same as Centrum.===>>> i don t think they will cause many trader will want to take advantage of the increased prices since there will not be by default the knowlege of the price Bigger alliances have dedicated trade hubs - the same would happen with all of Illyriad. Why? Because its easier, convenient and efficient.====>>>>so there will not be one centrum there will be many so thats fine for me. these alliances will be forced to learn the prices or they will pay the as everybody. They won't. I think you are not getting the problem. There are a lot of rare resources in Illyriad with maybe 5 people or less supplying it. And maybe 5 people buying them. Splitting it up all over Illyriad does not work.====>>>>i strongly believe that profit fix almost everithing, so the inrcease of the price will bring the rare resources closer , now you dont have to play any trade if you have these resources you just sell them in the centrume , so you are a trader even if in real you are a miner. I was not talking about expensive stuff but rare/specialized stuff. It doesn't make sense to sell raw diamonds at the local farmer market where nobody is going to buy it.===>>> exacly so you will be forced to sell them at a very lower price to someone that pays 30+ traders and have the information where they want these diamonds We are in a modern age now. Its easy to get information. With or without Centrum.===>>>> the game is at medevial era (i hope i don t miss any secrete reaserch i have to do from the begining .LOL.) . I DISAGREE even now with the internet the producer of the prodacts don t want to let you know the average price of what they sells you, they are forced by some platforms doing that and having them all together but and in that case you dont know how the prodact that have been made in America or China worth when you buy it . and even if you did know you could not buy it directly cause transportation cost so you are forced to buy local and give some profit to someone else that don t produce the prodact just sell it which is a trader job. |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 15:24
No. Convenience and quantity is a lot more important than profit per item for most traders. At least thats my experience interacting with traders in Illyriad. There are traders that specialize on big quantity trades. If i trade double the amount of items in just one hub for half the profit then thats worth it for me - as thats a lot less work.
No. Alliance hubs are used for basic/advanced resources mostly. There would be another hub for rare resources.
Profit does not really solve the problem of lack of supply. There are a lot of rare animal parts that go for 1+m per item - still the supply is quite low.
So essentially you want to make the rich even richer and be able to "exploit" smaller players even more? The trade (even at Centrum) already has decent profit ranges.
Real life is a lot more complex and thus harder. In Illyriad you do not really have worker and transport cost - thus it is easy. Tens (or someone else) adding an "Average hub price" tool in DurcTools wouldn't be an insane effort (he did similar things already).
|
Posted By: Asvenger
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 16:22
| Sif - thanks for the creative thinking. I started as a trader in the basic commodities and moved up to exotics (kudos to Thirion for making the exotics market). I've supported several efforts to create Broken Lands hubs by moving traders and goods to energize buying and selling. Ultimately there just wasn't enough traffic (or profit) outside of Centrum to be worth the time and effort monitoring multiple trade spots and shipping goods around. So currently I trade at Centrum and make a lot of goods available to neighbors at my local Hub. I voted for status quo. |
Posted By: Asvenger
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 16:28
|
Side note: chasing a discovery/mystery, I tested if each of one's towns has a trader at the same spot, different spots, etc. No result yet. I'm now up to around 15 traders - the next one requires a daunting 610 barrels of wine. I'm open to suggestions on deploying traders to unlock a discovery/mystery. Thanks, Asvenger
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 20:14
|
No. Convenience and quantity is a lot more important than profit per
item for most traders.===>>>> agree cause there is no way to make
profit since everyone knows the "corect" prices So essentially you want to
make the rich even richer and be able to "exploit" smaller players
even more?==è>>>> i tottaly do NOT care who will make profite and who will
be exploited by this change I care ONLY to engage an aspect of the game which
is trading
The trade (even at Centrum)
already has decent profit ranges.=è>>>> there is no such a think as decent in profit Tens (or someone else) adding
an "Average hub price" tool in DurcTools wouldn't be an insane effort
(he did similar things already).=è>>> I hope this would not be allowed to |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 20:18
| Ultimately there just wasn't enough traffic (or profit) outside of Centrum to be worth the time and effort ===>>>> there is NO way to have a traders profite if the game is set by default to everyone is a trader whithout been a trader |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 20:20
| I'm open to suggestions on deploying traders to unlock a discovery/mystery.===>>> agree but thats an other story |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 20:52
Do the math. Saddles: Highest buy offer 675 gold. Lowest sell offer: 999 gold (or 610 and 1,068 for high quantity) Hides: 3,510 and 4,800 Swords: 650 and 824 That's still quite a bit of profit. In addition there are some rare resources where the profit is a lot higher. And with good connections the profit can improve too.
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 21:05
| That's still quite a bit of profit. In addition there are some rare resources where the profit is a lot higher. And with good connections the profit can improve too.===>>>>this is not cause trading skills just patient skills . There is no trading its just crafting and sell it. |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 22:13
|
Closing centrum even temporarily would be a bad idea; people have trillions of resources stored there. To close centrum you'd either have to bar access to said trillion resources, or teleport it.... somewhere? Not in to towns, as they'd overflow... another hub.... at which point I guess that hub becomes the de facto centrum. Either choice is bad. Without closing centrum, hiding centrum would not help as there's enough force behind centrum to sustain it as the de facto choice. It potentially would be an interesting and fun idea if the game was implemented like that, but that ship has sailed. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 22:25
|
Closing centrum even temporarily would be a bad idea; people have trillions of resources stored there. To close centrum you'd either have to bar access to said trillion resources, or teleport it.... somewhere? Not in to towns, as they'd overflow... another hub.... at which point I guess that hub becomes the de facto centrum. Either choice is bad.===>>> teleporting to the closer to the capital hub or something like that Without closing centrum, hiding centrum would not help as there's enough force behind centrum to sustain it as the de facto choice. ===>>> tottaly agree but that ship has sailed. ===>>> as long as the captein is in deck there is time to change the ship line |
Posted By: demdigs
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 22:53
|
things might get more interesting when factions become active. if an alliance accidentally becomes negative in the standings with centrum and higher taxes and reaches -35 things might get very interesting. It might cause a diversification of hubs. |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 22:57
| things might get more interesting when factions become active. if an alliance accidentally becomes negative in the standings with centrum and higher taxes and reaches -35 things might get very interesting. It might cause a diversification of hubs.====>>>>i can hope on that a bit but if they see the centrum prices the main Problem still remain imo |
Posted By: Bolism
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 23:39
|
I can understand the appeal for some people that want to be more involved in the trading, but the game not been set like this. A tool to track the prices in different hubs, is already around in some trading alliances (manually updated, track couple of 100 items prices in the hub they are interested in...). And just the fact that gc exists gonna kill most of your incentive. In a couple of second people can figure out the avg prices. As thirion explained before, we got the communication tools, you want to remove that too? And no I don't want my goods that are in centrum to be in a closer hub, I spent time to move that there for that reason. In a sand box like illyriad, with the functionalities that been build, in my opinion your idea will just kill the trading in hub even more, and reinforce the central place of centrum, or worth for you would have a spreadsheet public with the pricing avg/current in a bunch of hub. For the basic stuff I use centrum for the fun part it's often off market. A trader is and has always been a middle man, and depending on places mostly moving stuff from point a to b, where then the local "trusted" distribution centers took over. Importance of trust! From that trust (and some time loss of) some tools been implemented, msrp, Price control etc. But thats a total different game you are designing here. As mentioned already to you, that would mostly make the rich richer and that's about it. we can do harvesting/hunting/tourney/trading on same account in illy, you want to restrict that too?
|
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 01:14
And what if said hub is hostile to said player? What if their closest hub is centrum? What if their trader town is not their capital and so a different hub is preferential? What stops centrum from returning to the de facto place once it re-opens? For that matter, how long are you closing it for? You introduce a lot of short term pain and complexity, not to mention dev-time, in exchange for long term fairly minimal benefit as people will coordinate; even with centrum in existence, pushes for BL equivalents have taken place with varying degrees of success. End result is it becomes easier to scam newbs in to accepting unfair prices just because they haven't been brought up to speed yet, no one else is affected. A significant portion of trading is done via GC or just trade deals anyway; if I'm buying bulk equipment, trade hubs are usually the last place I look. Taxes get avoided like the plague here. In terms of the realism argument I've seen you make, the setting is fantasy. There are orcs and elves and dwarves. We have magic. Literal demons stalk the land, not to mention ogres and trolls and giant plant-heart that eats people and spits out fungus monsters. Soldiers aren't people; they count nothing towards population, food consumption and pay no taxes. Please explain why a simple messaging magic is beyond the scope of possibility in Illyria. Finally, read the room. People campaigned for years to get a BL centrum. I saw pushes on Windmire back 2016 spearheaded by Lord Kalobas arguing for a centrum of the south. Hope ridge became the successful one but this was not some spontaneous movement. The majority of players want centrum/hope ridge to exist, what do the devs gain by taking away what they only recently have given?
------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 06:36
|
PRODUCER =>
TRADER => COSTUMER when the
producer sell direct to the costumer there is no trader (Producer => Costumer)
, so it not
about more trading is about engage trading. I understand
that GC will cut some of that so I would like not allowed at GC speaking about prices
so if you want to advertise your products to be forced to pay more in traders
upkeep. All the deals are made by
other ways via GC are been made by the
default knowledge of the prices so changing that will change and the out HUB
trade
As I said I really don’t care who get richer and
who get poorer . I also don t care if it would make the game more complex (I want
to be easier but by cutting micromanagement no by cutting motivation to
interact ) . what I care is an aspect that will motivate you to interact trying
to became richer or less poor .
I totally disagree to don’t add any aspect in
the game because some or all established player will lose their effort ( the DEVS
could neglect the lost if wanted to ex. free speeding vans for a week )
About the realistic argument if you believe that the god of Illyria after the ddisappearance of the bloody cast of warriors from the world decide to get rid and the greedy and insatiable cast of the traders |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 08:41
|
Sif, you have a fantasy of how you want trade to be - but that is unrealistic and never going to work. You want us to use an axe to cut a forest - when we have a chainsaw or even more modern tools at home. People write tools for games to make them more convenient. Thats how games work today. In addition i do not think you have much experience with trading in Illyriad. I do.
In real life most producing companies allow you to directly buy from them. But it is more convenient to buy at the local store or at a global store that has everything - thus traders become relevant. It is mostly because of convenience though. Amazon for example does not have the best price or best reputation. But it has everything - thus people use it.
Your suggestions would lead to the opposite though. Convenience in real life and games is important. Most people do not want to waste their time looking for something. Without Centrum 2 things would happen:
Instead of Centrum the big traders are going to set the price. Which essentially is the current version but worse. Why would you engage 10 smaller players that might or might not have the items you want available? When instead you could just ask a big trader that has the items for sure. Or ask in GC - someone is going to answer there. Why as a trader would you move items to smaller hubs when they just rot there? When instead you can tell people to come to "your" hub to trade.
That is a really important factor though. Your suggestions would make the entry for trading a lot higher - thus a lot of the smaller and new traders would just disappear. So instead of making trading more interesting you just make it not worth it for a lot of people that are currently trading.
Which is already the case. With your suggestions it would become worse. |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 09:00
|
In real life economies, vertical integration is a thing. Producers can and do act as the retailer in many cases. In real life economies, organic coordination towards a trading hub is also a thing; think London, New York and Tokyo. This is why your idea doesn't work. From a realist standpoint, your idea fails totally. If you want people to engage with trading, then focus on the metagame of trading. I ran a bank in illy some years ago, and another guy ran a bonds program. Both received a lot of interest from the community. The system as-is is fine for promoting trading activity, it's just that the act of trading is somewhat niche as an area of interest. If you want something to get implemented, you need broad support for it from both the devs and the player base. You will not get this for the idea of hiding hubs. I'm not saying it is not conceivable for hubs to be hidden within illyria, I am saying that it is not unrealistic for hubs to be visible as is, given what we know of the world. It's not a direct copy of real life. Your proposal for banning trading chat from GC is unrealistic, draconian and a terrible idea. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 09:16
|
PRODUCER => TRADER => CUSTOMER
do you know any trader ? and if you do what is his job ? does he do something similar to the Amazon or just have patient and trade just for the score ? i would be very happy if i was new and at some point realise that traders taking advantage of me , it would be realy chalenging and really motivating for me the efort to overcome this .= which is the point for me and i think for most plaiers the felling that you achieve someting creative due to your skills. farthermore i believe that in some deree the lack of trading is and the main reason that crafting is also not worth it for advance crafting : since you know the prices of the harvesters the crafted need to be made when you want to buy ,so the crafter profit is very close to the prices of the harvested item so not really motivate even there and for basick : i am sure this system affects them ( i don t have patient to think how .lol)
|
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 09:24
|
I was a trader. I bought low and sold high. I ran a bank doing this. Only reason why I stopped is the amount of effort required to run a bank interfered with my education. Plenty of crafting is worth it, that's why people do it. The reason why some equipment is not worth it is because the stats on the equipment are bad.
------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 10:16
| A trader is and has always been a middle man, and depending on places mostly moving stuff from point a to b, ===>>> Agree does anyone doing this in illyriad ... cause in illyria the trader is the person that take advance of the lack of patient of the sellers to sell and the buyiers to buy . |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 10:21
|
Yes, there are people who do this in illyriad. That's what people placing buy/sell orders are doing; they are being more patient than the people who fill them. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 10:57
Which means the Illyriad trader is the middle man - thus a "real" trader. Outside of what you describe there are a few different areas for traders in Illyriad though:
Most traders engage in multiple areas. |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 11:37
Which means the Illyriad trader is the middle man - thus a "real" trader===>>> being a middle man does not make you a trader ..... being a middle man that knows where to buy and where to sell does
|
Posted By: Bolism
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 11:55
|
They are all traders ... On top of a problem of reading and understanding, you have a problem of values ... And with that I'm done here also ... Good luck, I'm out before I start calling names ....
|
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 12:04
|
I've done all of those types of trading in the past, they are all viable right now and profitable if you know what you're doing. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Tensmoor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 12:48
|
I used to craft some items and sell them both direct and in hubs. Was I a trader? To an extent yes but it formed a very small part of my Illy play as I wasn't that interested in it. There are tools available to allow poeple to track prices in any hub that is visible to them - ask 4WT about the one I made for them. Any sort of attempt to ban chatting about trade in GC would require one of the dev team to be constantly monitoring GC. This is not the sort of thing that could be easily done by a bot such as the one that checks for banned words. The dev team should as much as possible be allowed to concentrate on the coding and general upkeep of the game. I believe the original idea behind Centrum being visible to every capital city was to allow new players to fairly easily get an introduction to the trading methods available in Illy. In my opinion it does this fairly well and removing the visibility of it and the BL alternative would be a very bad idea. Tens
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 13:10
|
I used to craft some items and sell them both direct and in hubs. Was I a trader?'===>>> i count this as a crafting action Any sort of attempt to ban chatting about trade in GC would require one of the dev team to be constantly monitoring GC===>>> agree but as i said this ( GC trade ) would cut trading would not eliminate it I believe the original idea behind Centrum being visible to every capital city was to allow new players to fairly easily get an introduction to the trading methods available in Illy.===>>> I also agree that at the begining when there was really luck of potential traders not having centrum whould damage the game ...but.... this time has pass.... also regarding the idea that the community will make its own centerum i would like to tell me when broken land realise and did the comunity eventually manage to make a centume at BL ?
|
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 13:16
|
@sif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 13:34
No true ScotsmanPerson B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge." Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." No true Scotsman ILLYRIADSIF: Hi ,I believe that HAVING visable 2 central HUBS is bad for the trading experience of the game having visible 2 central hubs make thing much easier for everyone but is it any realistic?, does not it cut from the fun of the trading? , what is a trader at illyriad ? eowan : people do trade SIF: PRODUCER => TRADER => CUSTOMER / is there many traders? eowan : i was trading SIF: i agree you did who is A and who B ?
|
Posted By: Tensmoor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 13:53
Yes - Hope Ridge. It is visible to every capital city the same as Centrum. There was a great deal of discussion about it in both GC and the forums with the devs eventually taking a look at the trading figures before deciding that it would be put on the same visibility footing as Centrum. I can't remember exactly when this happened but when I last played it was the first page on the Herald so not that long ago in Illy timescales. @Eowan - I thought that 'No true Scotsman' post was a dig at me until I read it (by the way, I have salt in my porridge). Tens
|
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 13:55
So what is it now? You do understand that you contradict yourself? A "Flipper" buys stuff from a producer and sells it to customers. But according to you he is not a real trader. Similar with the High quantity trader. On the other hand "Investors" and "Movers" do not neccessarily buy from producer or sell to customers. But according to you they are traders. There are a lot of different kinds of traders - but they are traders. All of them are needed and can make profit.
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:07
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:18
|
PRODUCER ( making money by producing ) => TRADER ( making money by conecting the producer with the customer) => CUSTOMER ( pay money to the trader NOT because he is patient BUT because it does not worth to trasport themself the goods OR don t even know who the producer is OR where the producer is OR how much money they whould save if they do it direcly cause they dont even know the price the producer sells) |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:29
My scotsman post was in direct response to this: I used to craft some items and sell them both direct and in hubs. Was I a trader?'===>>> i count this as a crafting action People can be many things, including crafter and trader simultaneously. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Tensmoor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:30
Only the devs can alter the game code so of course the devs did it but only after the players had demonstrated that it was both a viable trade center in BL and that the vast majority of them wanted it. Tens
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:34
| so a procuser for your point of view is a trader by default .. since he does not produce it for himself? |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:36
|
trader /ˈtreɪdə/ https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ONGR_en-GBGB979GB979&sxsrf=APq-WBvFudzpKkqdpYngisQ06_0anIrNUA:1648046104454&q=how+to+pronounce+trader&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRowS3w8sc9YSn9SWtOXmPU5OINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLiYglJLcoV4pLi4GIrKUpMSS2yYlFiSs3jWcQqnpFfrlCSr1AA1JEP1JKqAFEAACJsx-5XAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=gb&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwix8IOVutz2AhXhnVwKHXh9Bo8Q3eEDegQIDxAK" rel="nofollow - noun
How they do this, anything else they do, and everything else is irrelevant. All that matters is that they buy / sell stuff. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:37
| there was an agrument before if the plaiers would make a new HUB the centrum by themselfs if the original Centrum was closed , without the devs |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:38
So apparently if you buy something at Centrum from a trader that you want to use you are not always a customer?
The investor usually has to be (really) patient though. Seems like your "easy" definition of customer is flawed. I really hope your are trolling - it is getting ridiculous now
|
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:42
|
Three meanings of the term centrum are being used; the hub itself, centrum meaning globally visible trade hub, and centrum meaning the main trade hub that everyone uses. Players could make any hub a centrum in the sense of it being the main trade hub that everyone uses. Trade hubs benefit from scale; the more users the better the hub is. So people would coordinate, similar to how they do irl. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:43
|
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trader" rel="nofollow - trader -
Wiktionary
trader (plural https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/traders#English" rel="nofollow - ) 1.
One who earns a
living by https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trade" rel="nofollow - goods or securities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader" rel="nofollow - Trader -
Wikipedia Trader may refer to: ·
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant" rel="nofollow - , retailer or one who attempts to generally buy wholesale and sell later at
a profit ·
The owner of
a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_post" rel="nofollow - , where manufactured goods were exchanged with native peoples for furs and
hides. ·
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader_%28finance%29" rel="nofollow - , someone who
buys and sells financial instruments such as stocks, bonds, derivatives, etc. |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 15:02
|
No one earns a living here in illy, we exist permanently for free, so the first one doesn't make sense in context. Second one; retailer retailer /ˈriːteɪlə/ https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ONGR_en-GBGB979GB979&sxsrf=APq-WBvCN9MrbWUvp5XtkNNjaPSrrFXHuA:1648047644979&q=how+to+pronounce+retailer&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRoxS3w8sc9YSnDSWtOXmPU5uINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLhYglJLcoV4pHi4uIoSi1JzMxJLbJiUWJKzeNZxCqZkV-uUJKvUADUkw_UlKoAUwIAcLA5BVsAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=gb&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicus7zv9z2AhXNgVwKHU9lCwgQ3eEDegQIFBAK" rel="nofollow"> noun noun: retailer; plural noun: retailers
People can make things, sell them, and still be considered a retailer. Trader and crafter often go hand in hand ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Salamander
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 16:22
|
Before Centrum became visible to everybody there were players that traded from the difference in prices. People that didn't want to make a trader whined enough to get Centrum visible to all . That basically killed any player that wanted to play like a real trade market . Now you basically dump into Centrum or a hub in newbie ring . ------------- Was once Samalander until the forum lost my login now Salamander |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 17:02
| Thanks for the info ..Nice to know that Salamander. Well for the newbie ring there are plenty hubs closer than the centrum to be used. |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 11:56
In comparison to real markets, this is kinda an odd view. The internet exists; I can know the exact price of a given stock, commodity etc. in exchanges around the world if I want to. Are you really saying that the internet has killed any 'real trade markets' irl? While traders can make profits out of information asymmetries, it is not the only strategy. In addition to that, centrum doesn't actually stop people from listing things in other markets. Back when I was heavily in to trading, I had half a dozen traders which just roved around different markets checking and often finding good deals. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 12:22
|
That basically killed any player that wanted to play like a real trade market .===>>> well it seems most people don t care about play the game ( by playing i mean trying to win do not say that is a sandbox cause has nothing to do with that in a sandbox you set your own goals to win when in a no sandbox this goals are set by the devs.) And care more about how to level down its dificalty
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 12:26
|
This not goes to thirion or to eowan... i believe they both try to win their game. |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 12:59
|
Not many care about trade? A very very strange opinion to have; the vast majority of players participate in trade in some way. Crafters will sell their goods via trading, pvpers keep their armies stocked via trade, and builders use trade to fund their vast projects. Now, there aren't as many big flashy projects in trade- war tends to get the headlines- but there are still people who trade constantly. Keep an eye on the markets and it's not hard to spot people engaging in trade for trade's own sake rather than for production/consumption reasons. I think if you want more people to engage in trade for its own sake, you should focus on the meta-game. Do a big flashy project; run a bank, a courier service, something that draws people in. Be the game you want to play. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 15:21
|
Not many care about trade?===>>> i never say that i say ' Not many care about winning ' when winning via trade means making profit from this. i know you was doing this (trading ) what i am saying is that with the corect system you canot trade to win!!! ( being an exeption does not canchel the rule) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader" rel="nofollow - Trader - Wikipedia Trader may
refer to: · Merchant, retailer or one who attempts
to generally buy wholesale and sell later at a
PROFIT · The owner of a trading post, where manufactured goods were exchanged with native peoples for furs and hides. it has start to becoming exhausted this ...... but i can not not have the last post so if is exhausted and to you let that be the last post. |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 16:23
|
You can trade to win; trading for profit is ludicrously easy. Example: Right now, the spread on wood in centrum is .21 gp. The spread only needs to be .04 to make profit. If you put a buy order up at 0.78, then sell at 0.97, you get an easy profit by just flipping wood. The markets be inefficient, my dude. Go forth and trade. I won't stop, gotta get forum points somehow. I wanna hit 936 so I get on the top page :P ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 16:53
This is a sandbox MMO game. You set your own goals. Thus winning does not mean you need to make profit with trading. You can make a profit (as Eowan mentioned) - but you can also "win" by not making (much) profit. I trade mostly for ranking points - which means i "win" in the rankings. There are a lot of different ways to play the game. And a lot of different ways to "win" the game. Sorry to say this - but to me it seems more and more like you have no idea how Illyriad really works.
|
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 18:44
|
I won't stop, gotta get forum points somehow. I wanna hit 936 so I get on the top page===>>> this will last forever ???? since i don t reply to your post so why not stop it here . You set your own goals===>>> agree thats what i said Thus winning does not mean you need to make profit with trading===>>> according to wikipedia it does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader" rel="nofollow - Trader - Wikipedia Trader may refer to: · Merchant, retailer or one who attempts to generally buy wholesale and sell later at a PROFIT |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 19:07
|
How is Profit defined? There are two definitions; financial gain, but also a more generic benefit or advantage. In this case, Thirion's profit is in trade score ranking, rather than financial. Also, there are three parts to that definition, only one of which refers to profit [Merchant], [retailer] or [one who attempts to generally buy wholesale and sell later at a profit] So, he could be a merchant trader or a retail trader, rather than a wholesale trader Irl, non-profits can be retailers- charity shops for example- so clearly raw financial return isn't necessary. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 19:58
|
i think traders profit for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader" rel="nofollow - Wikipedia has a very self expain definition (refers to money i think) if they believe that anyone would doubt them they would say : Trader may refer to: · Merchant, retailer or one who attempts to generally buy wholesale and sell later at a PROFIT ( this NOT refer to illyriad trading score increase but to the money) i don t say that people that play for trade score doing something bad ofcource its part of the game trying to rise at the score list and i am sure is chalenging but it is not trading for most people |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 20:39
|
profit /ˈprɒfɪt/ Learn to pronounce noun 1. a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something. "record pre-tax profits" 2. advantage; benefit. Profit can refer either directly to money, or to a generic benefit. You keep redefining trader, narrowing the definition to suit you. The one true scotsman is alive and well, and it would seem he is a trader.
------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 21:12
|
You keep redefining trader,===>>> we was speaking for traders profit which in that case did not suits you........ |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 21:21
|
Sif, there are 3 components to the definition you have provided The first is merchant The second is retailer The third is one who attempts to generally buy wholesale and sell later at a profit All of those are types of traders. You only focus on the third one, and now have redefined the third one as: one who attempts to generally buy wholesale and sell later at a PROFIT ( this NOT refer to illyriad trading score increase but to the money) So, explain why Thirion isn't a retailer or a merchant. Explain why only monetary profit applies in the third case. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 22:00
|
The first is merchant===>>> http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant" rel="nofollow - http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant = A merchant is a person who trades in commodities produced by OTHER people, ....... (so with this is clearly undersandable that when you produce and sale you are not a merchant ) The second is retailer===>>> http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retail" rel="nofollow - http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retail = A retailer purchases goods in large quantities from manufacturers , directly or through a wholesaler, and then sells in smaller quantities to consumers for a PROFIT . ....... (so with this is clearly undersandable that when you produce and sale you are not a retailer ) + ....... but there are people doing this in illyriad but still no traders cause the only profit here is the impatient profit which its exist only because its very very small because retailers not doing it for PROFIT as a retailer would but for score . So if the retailers was trying to make serious profit the patiennt of the impatients would rise so their profit will be still small cause even and the impatients see the prices at the centrum . The third is one who attempts to generally buy wholesale and sell later at a profit===>>> http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholesaling" rel="nofollow - http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholesaling = Wholesaling, the selling of goods in large quantities but at lower prices for selling the goods at a profit. Wholesaling is buying goods in bulk quantity at a discounted rate and selling to the retailer at a higher price ( this is clearly undersandable that when the consumere has access to the centrum there will NOT be discounted rate NOR higher price ) So, explain why Thirion isn't a retailer or a merchant.===>>> as he has explain his self he do it for the points Explain why only monetary profit applies in the third case===>>> there is nothing to explain here its selfexplained |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 22:12
|
A merchant is a person who trades in commodities produced by OTHER people I produce prestige at regular intervals. Thirion buys my prestige and trades with it. Therefore, by your own definition, he is a trader via the merchant route. I don't think it is self explained that only monetary profit applies. Explain it for me. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2022 at 22:31
|
Therefore, by your own definition, he is a trader via the merchant route. ===>>> agreed ............but no he is not do it for profit/// exept if he does so then yes he is one of the very few exeptions I don't think it is self explained that only monetary profit applies. Explain it for me. ===>>> you think that wikipedia refers to other kinds of profits when reffers to the trader ??
|
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 09:29
After re-reading the definition i think you are missing an important factor Sif. A merchant attempts to make a profit. Me and all other traders i know always attempt to make monetary profit. As i said my main reason (and not my only one - there are a lot of reasons/profits why i trade Prestige the way i do) is ranking profit - that does not mean though that i am trying to also make some monetary profit. Over time i made billions of monetary profit (gold) in trading.
|
Posted By: Tensmoor
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 09:31
|
One of the things that first attracted me to Illy was the number of different ways to play. This also applies to trading no matter the definition you apply.
There are also many ways judge how succesful you are in your trading endevours:
This is for me one of Illy's greatest strengths. Multiple ways to in effect do the same thing - another is the way the devs actively encourage the creation of third party tools such as DurcTools. Tens |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 09:40
|
Why does it matter if he makes a profit? Your definition of merchant makes no mention of profit. I think a generic advantage or benefit very much could apply, so please explain why traders can only ever trade for monetary profit. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 10:44
|
After re-reading the
definition i think you are missing an important factor Sif. A merchant attempts to
make a profit.===è>> agree on that you don’t have to make profit you have just to attempt to do it …… but why to attempt to
make something that is almost impossible since the other part of how needs the
goods know exactly how much it cost and where to find them ( the only reason
for the 99% traders is impatient profit )
Why does it
matter if he makes a profit? Your definition of merchant makes no mention of
profit.=è>>>
It does /// https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader" rel="nofollow - == Merchant,
retailer or one who attempts to generally buy wholesale and sell later at a PROFIT === >>> you think Wikipedia refes to other kind of profit and
not monetary ? |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 10:59
|
It's pretty clear to me from the wording that in your definition of trader, the reference to profit is made solely in relation to a wholesaler. Here is how the sentence is structured, brackets for emphasis: [Merchant], [retailer] or [one who attempts to generally buy wholesale and sell later at a profit] Merchant and retailer are both separate from the wholesaler which is the only one with a reference to profit. I believe it is possible that the profit referred to solely in the wholesaler section is not always a monetary profit. After all, what about traders who use a bartering based system rather than a monetary one? Also, why do you think your definition of trader is superior to the one I originally stated? trader /ˈtreɪdə/ https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ONGR_en-GBGB979GB979&sxsrf=APq-WBtyPDMmC045lOVxv6wXEHJHD72vLQ:1648205931996&q=how+to+pronounce+trader&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRowS3w8sc9YSn9SWtOXmPU5OINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLiYglJLcoV4pLi4GIrKUpMSS2yYlFiSs3jWcQqnpFfrlCSr1AA1JEP1JKqAFEAACJsx-5XAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=gb&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj4-N7IjeH2AhUQgv0HHdXeBwMQ3eEDegQIDBAK" rel="nofollow -
noun
------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 11:06
| Merchant and retailer are both separate from the wholesaler which is the only one with a reference to profit.====>>>> you are correct here.....BUT do you have a RL exemple of what wikipedia would refer to a merchant motivation???? |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 11:13
|
You missed out replying to a part of my post, so I will repost it: I believe it is possible that the profit referred to solely in the wholesaler section is not always a monetary profit. After all, what about traders who use a bartering based system rather than a monetary one? Also, why do you think your definition of trader is superior to the one I originally stated? trader /ˈtreɪdə/ https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ONGR_en-GBGB979GB979&sxsrf=APq-WBtyPDMmC045lOVxv6wXEHJHD72vLQ:1648205931996&q=how+to+pronounce+trader&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRowS3w8sc9YSn9SWtOXmPU5OINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLiYglJLcoV4pLi4GIrKUpMSS2yYlFiSs3jWcQqnpFfrlCSr1AA1JEP1JKqAFEAACJsx-5XAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=gb&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj4-N7IjeH2AhUQgv0HHdXeBwMQ3eEDegQIDBAK" rel="nofollow - noun
------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 12:12
But that is the same in real life too? For almost all of the products you can easily find their price and where to find them.
In my opinion you should not use a real life definition and use it exactly like that for a game with different circumstances. As an example: In real life it doesn't really make sense to trade for ranking points. In real life monetary profit might (or might not - i do not really care tbh) the only profit - in Illyriad there are a lot of different profits.
|
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 12:30
|
A teacher is one who teaches A researcher is one who researches A farmer is one who farms. A trader is one who trades. Anyone who participates in the markets of illy, be it the formal markets in hubs or the informal markets in GC, is a trader to one degree or another. Trader is not a binary off or on, it is a spectrum. On one end, you have the non-traders who never trade with anyone else. On the other end, you have the impossibly pure trader, whose sole town contains nothing but a marketplace, a merchant's guild, and a trade office. Almost everyone falls somewhere in between. How they trade is irrelevant. What drives them to trade is irrelevant. What the result of their trading is is irrelevant. All that matters is that they take their place within the cogs and wheels of illy's economic system. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 19:45
|
But
that is the same in real life too? For almost all of the products you can
easily find their price and where to find them. ==== >>> I am
sure you don’t without a trader ( retailer store or online shop ) … what happen
is that some producers want to take themselves traders profit so they sell
their own products directly
In my
opinion you should not use a real life definition and use it exactly like that
for a game with different circumstances. As an example: In real life it doesn't
really make sense to trade for ranking points.=== >>> as I said
above I am not saying there can not be make use of the trade mechanic of the
game to have fun or to be challenging through this …. What I am saying is that
that trade mechanic can not be used by most for play as a trader .
In real
life monetary profit might (or might not
- i do not really care tbh) the only profit - in Illyriad there are a lot of
different profits. ==== >>> agree
A teacher
is one who teaches==== >>> agree but by
selling HIS teaching leason at
the centrume does that make him a TRADER
? A researcher is one who
researches==== >>> agree but by selling HIS discoveries at the centrume does
that make him a TRADER A farmer is one who farms.
==== >>> agree but by selling HIS FOOD at the centrume does that make him a TRADER ? A trader is one who trades.
==== >>> …. all the above attempting to make
profit thru it
Two stories Story 1) Player A try to be
competitive at the score of Illyria to do so he buy and sell in the CENTRUM attempting to when he sell to take
back the money he spend to buy and the taxes Story 2) Player B has find a Player C that
his PC has a bug and can not see the Centrum so he sell what he produce at his
local HUB / player B as he is greedy grab s the
opportunity and place buy orders at this HUB at a lower price compare to the centrum / player C sells his products and he is happy cause there was no way to
sell the other way /. Player B moves these products to the centrum and sell
them attempting to make profit . |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 20:04
|
So you're saying all teachers seek to profit from teaching? Are we ignoring volunteers? If I were to get trained as a teacher, fly out to an LEDC and volunteer at a school, would I be any less of a teacher? Neat stories, all are traders. You can be a trader without money; what of bartering? Monetary profit is not the sole motive of a trader. I've even used a bartering system in illy; I bought prestige with gold, sold the prestige for cows, and sold the cows for gold at one point.
------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Thirion
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 20:23
No. What about all the comparison sites that tell you what trader (shop) sells what for what price? Or platforms (eBay, Amazon Warehouse, ...) that allow traders to trade? Because that is essentially what Hubs are. On both examples above you have an easy access to see the "real" price of the product. |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 20:33
|
Neat stories, all are traders. ====>>>> hahahahahhahahahhahahahaha You can be a trader without money; what of bartering? Monetary profit is not the sole motive of a trader. I've even used a bartering system in illy; I bought prestige with gold, sold the prestige for cows, and sold the cows for gold at one point.====>>>>> I have 100 cows , sell 100 cows for 200 shords ( to someone that can not see the centrum prices so he does not know that 1 cow cost = 3,5635485486315984635 shords ) , sell 200 shords for 300 minerals sell 300 minerals for 1 city sell 1 city for 1500 spears sell 1500 spears for 2 advises from an expert sell 2 advises for 2000 bows sell 2000 bows for 150 cows so i have make traders profit 50 cows ..without using money |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 20:39
|
Exactly, so monetary profit is not necessary. Therefore, the more generic meaning of profit applies 'Advantage; benefit' You yourself give a non-material thing that might be traded; advice from an expert. Therefore, I see no reason why trading score cannot be viewed as the profit of trading and so Thirion is a trader, as is anyone who buys/sells stuff. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 20:55
|
No. What about all the comparison sites that tell you what trader (shop) sells what for what price? Or platforms (eBay, Amazon Warehouse, ...) that allow traders to trade? Because that is essentially what Hubs are.===>>>> imagine one site( from the above ) that have all the people of the world have access by deafault when opening their phones and not online buys was forbiten .......... you think that if this was aplly whould any of the producer need someone in the middle bettowen him and the costumer ???? |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 21:23
| Exactly, so monetary profit is not necessary ===>>>>NO Cause 150 cows whorth 6.000 gold after money was discavered |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 21:38
|
How much are 2 pieces of advice worth? Last I checked I can't value them at centrum. I can't ship it from one town to another. They're intangible, unregistered by the game.
Meanwhile, trade score is not without value and is registered by the game And, last I checked, cows are not money.
------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 21:43
|
Last I checked, you can sell in places other than centrum. You are the only one who has suggested banning a place to trade; GC and (temporarily) centrum and hope ridge. And, why should producers need a middle man? That sounds like an imperfect market.
------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 21:45
| And, last I checked, cows are not money. ===>>>> check again you can tranform 1 cow to 350 gold ritgh now at the centrum. |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 21:48
| And, why should producers need a middle man? That sounds like an imperfect market.===>>>>They do not with the curent system, thats why trading is limited (trade =middle man) |
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 22:06
|
I can transform a cow in to money, but a cow is not money in and of itself. My troops will not accept cows for upkeep. It's like saying that an apple irl is money; it is not. Trading is perfectly viable as I and a great many others have pointed out. Please explain to me why the devs should make up for your incompetence in the markets by changing mechanics. 'Trade = middle man' is a brand new definition for you. If we're going to keep switching definitions, then I hereby define the word 'Thirion' to mean trader, and therefore Thirion, definitionally, is a trader. ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 22:17
|
This is my last post here replying to you no matter what you respond, cause this cost more than time. I can transform a cow in to money, but a cow is not money in and of itself. My troops will not accept cows for upkeep.====>>>> they would happilly accept it before money was discaver Trade = middle man' is a brand new definition for you. ===>>>tottal not New this and profit was the matters from the begining.
|
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 22:32
|
So, if trading can happen without money... then definitionally monetary profit is not necessary? What about profit in the form of good will? Notoriety? Trade contacts? Advertising? Also, come on, keep responding, I'm nearly ahead of Llyorn of Jaensch ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |
Posted By: Sif
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 22:42
|
OK i Will try to make it easier for both of as. Trade is usually for monetary profit. ///for this kind of profit refer the poll that the centrum existance hurts.
|
Posted By: eowan the short
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2022 at 22:48
|
yay The poll where most people agreed with me? And I don't see any options in the poll where it defines what trade is for? ------------- This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because... |