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Ascn/Falln Diplomacy

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: The World
Forum Name: Elgea
Forum Description: For everything related to the Elgea Continent
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=10859
Printed Date: 06 May 2021 at 07:51
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Ascn/Falln Diplomacy
Posted By: BayNights
Subject: Ascn/Falln Diplomacy
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2021 at 06:45

Hear ye Hear ye! BayNights is here to deliver an announcement in Tallimar Town Square!


*Clears throat


Greetings my fellow citizens of Illyriad! Extraordinary times require exceptional communications, and we, as members of the greatest continent (Elgea), all know GC is not that tool.


This brings us to our matters at hand. Falln has found itself at odds with an alliance of Elgean associates. Many of us have known one another for years. As a member of Falln, I accept Ascn’s grievances - some of them justified and some of them not. I am here today to personally apologize for past transgressions against select members of Ascn. While we have enjoyed our occasional playful sparring, we would like to be clear of our future intentions.


We as Falln, and me as BayNights, would like to move forward in peace and are publicly announcing a complete cease fire from our members, one which started on 3.13.21. This cease fire from Falln will persist unless attacks continue on our cities (we have reason to believe further escalations from Ascn on our members is imminent). It is often easy to mix messages in Illyriad politics, so our message is in writing publicly and clear. If Ascn chooses to accept our peace offer, their members and associates will have uninterrupted peace now and in the future. In a show of further proof of our intent, we are offering a NAP publicly along with this statement.


While our message is one of peace, we would also like to clearly state our position. We have recorded each member of Ascn and their alts in and outside of the alliance as of 3.13.21. If a Falln city does find itself under aggression from our friends, each member of the alliance and their associated alt(s) will owe a debt, one which Falln will collect when and where it sees fit. We expect no future complaint from Ascn should they choose this path as an alliance, for we are stating it here along with our commitment to peace and a request for attacks on our cities to cease immediately. We have no issue with our Ascn neighbors, but if it is war they want, all members and cities will have it follow them.


Thank you my fellow citizens of mighty Illyriad. Your attention in times like these is of utmost importance and your discussion is most welcome among the lands.


BayNights




Replies:
Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2021 at 10:00
To translate this for those not fluent in BS:

For the past few years Bay has been razing Ascn cities wherever he saw the chance. Then he moved next to their main hub in Elgea and told everyone that wanted to hear that he was going to attack them there too. Apparently somewhat to his surprise and dismay Ascn did not like that. They killed his cav. They killed his inf. Now Bay wants peace until he has inf and cav again, but he also wants to look tough. So he tells Ascn that every Falln city they raze will incur a debt. The only question a sane person will have after reading that should be: Does he plan to pay his own substantial debt to Ascn in a simular fashion?




Posted By: Snagglepuss
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2021 at 14:18
Ironic how Grom was the first person to respond and try to discredit Bays attempt at ending hostilities?? I would gladly pay any and all of Baynights war debts ASCN feels Bay owes them


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2021 at 14:26
To discredit something it must have some credibility to begin with. Bay suggested paying any debt in cities razed. If you pay his to Ascn in that manner, both Snags and Raps would be left with nothing but a small hamlet. Anyway, was just providing some background for those that haven't the foggiest what happened prior to this post. 


Posted By: Duran
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2021 at 16:19
Very much reads, like, I want this to drag on so it keeps FALLN from coming on the offensive against TCol again. Either way, I love this post, because this is what the forums is supposed to be used for. I don't think neither myself, Grom, or Snags should be involved in it. 

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"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2021 at 16:44
Nobody said I was unbiased, but that doesn't make my argument any less valid. As for not involving ourselves:

"Thank you my fellow citizens of mighty Illyriad. Your attention in times like these is of utmost importance and your discussion is most welcome among the lands"


Posted By: Fanuidhol
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2021 at 22:24
How about returning any territory that was razed?


Posted By: Smopecakes
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 00:15
To my knowledge Saints/Iron had an entirely good reason for the initial attacks... certainly better than the cacus belli for the Tcol/Rum war

NCrow was truly unfortunate in my eyes, due to a perceived wartime threat from a Tcol confederate. I didn't think there was a threat but also was unhappy to see them close up shop before they had a chance to agree to the terms of dropping the confederation

In the first case I don't see a reason for returning territory, referring to DangerRuss's BL cities and Stormstone, in the second I would say there is a case for reparations for the loss of NCrow though it was their attachment to Tcol and not Ascn that led to hostilities

Perhaps Tcol and Falln could combine to offer some kind of recompense for the NCrow situation to Ascn as NCrow never would have been suspected by Saints/Iron/Rum if not for the war 


Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 01:02
Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

Anyway, was just providing some background for those that haven't the foggiest what happened prior to this post. 


Can you elaborate further on what happened? It has gone to the back of my mind.

And Duran is on to something. These forums should have more of this kind of dialogue/posturing around. It's good to have something to point to if there are any misunderstandings. Something to look towards when you remember what decisions you made after clarification was presented.





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PublicRelations
HumanResources


Posted By: Smopecakes
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 01:03
Hmm, it was a mistake to bring up the Tcol/Rum war cause as it's considered forgiven and forgotten particularly by those most involved. I just wanted to jab Grom since these various events are preventing putting more cracks in the Hasturtle shell Evil Smile


Posted By: Fanuidhol
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 04:17
Grom pretty much explained the hypocrisy. The land claw-backs mentioned were not related to anything that happened in BL, what happens in BL stays in BL.


Posted By: BayNights
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 05:53
It's good to see the discussion here and thank you for everyone's feedback.

Smokecakes - Agreed on your points and to be clear, I am not aware of any personal grievances of our members against anyone that was in nCrow. As you mentioned, it was simply a case of choosing to align with Tcol and to claim territory as a part of CDS. Although nCrow was not aggressive in this claim, they had Tcol's backing to raze anyone who entered, and Tcol had declared war against us. What was asked was simply to drop the confed. Their response was to disband the alliance. We cannot control how players choose to respond, but regardless it did stop any hostilities against their members. Unfortunately, certain accounts stayed in nCrow or moved to the alliance and still send attacks at our members today. 

In the case of nCrow members who did lose cities (there were few), we are open to discuss repairing the damage. This will of course require us to repair our relationship first.

Fanuidhol - I appreciate your suggestion and understand your concern, but territory will not be returned. There are players who have been wronged on all sides. Our proposal is to move forward in peace so we can focus on our respective goals (ours is not to fight Ascn, now or in the future), and to avoid the damage that war will bring to many due to the actions of few. Our leadership has also discussed relocation of a select few cities on both sides to help broker a more peaceful situation.


Posted By: Mad_Mano
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 09:50
Hello Everyone,

First I would like to clarify that this not the official statement from Ascn. The Nap, Peace are still being discussed and I will make an announcement once we have an answer.


This is just my views and my thoughts about the problem at hand.


BTW Baynights good PR stunt. I have been trying to reach out and solve the problem peacefully for past few months, but you never replied properly even in one occassion or was open to discussion.

I must agree it would have been hard for you to write this apology, but apology isn't going to bring back the players who you chased away from game or we continuing to put other players at risk because of your ego.

So citizens of Illyriad as much as we would like everyone to discuss about this, have debate and etc.. I believe everyone must know what the real problem is and what Baynights have been doing in past couple of years.

The problem is here is nothing new, it is an ego clash between couple of players. The only difference is we decided to walk away but Baynights decided to siege Ascn towns and involve other players who had nothing to do with this.

I have already stated the facts in many skype channel, alliance mails etc.. so i'm just going to post here one of those messages.


1) Ascn and Saints merged the merger didn't go well -> Saints wanted to fight Tcol, Ascn didn't this with combined with few other drama made one of the Rooks\council member to launch armies at Tcol. To prevent damage and full scale blown out war we made a Nap with Tcol. This didn't sit well with Saints who wanted to fight Tcol. so the merger failed. when this happened there was lot of drama and ego clash etc..

2) Saints then joined g! , Baynights sieged Ryklaw which made him to quit the game.

3) With the good leadership of G! we managed to reach ceasefire and then continued with on our own path.

4) Nov 2019 tourney was interesting and challenging we focused fully on that.

5) After this things were settled and then somewhere around this time last year. Tcol and Rum entered into war. so Baynights along with few other Rum players exodused to ursror\qarro to siege Hath of Tcol. when i noticed this i didn't like Baynights moving to usror so i objected and tried to block their town movements, then Rum leadership promised that it was to attack Tcol and not Ascn and they will move out after Tcol is removed.

6) However after Tcol was removed.. they sieged ncrow players who were allies to Ascn and forced to disband and merge with Ascn. (Their reason was Ncrow confed with Tcol but we think that reason was BS)

7) After this they started attacking our players in stormstone , settled towns with 5sqs of our players.. The option they gave was exodus or loose towns, we managed to get most of the towns out, but our allies AA lost couple of towns.

8) Then they started attacking our players in Trome. The option they gave was exodus or loose towns or join them. 

9) After all these we still didn't attack their towns. 

10) They started expanding into Qarro near our players, we didn't raise any concern this time and we were minding our own stuff.

11) we took part and used lot of troops on Nov-20 tournament, they noticed this and sent troops from bl to siege our players in qarro. They dropped 4m troops on our doorstep. we managed to save 1 town but lost another.

12) After this we moved few towns to support our players up there.

13) They were attacking our players on regular basis. 

14) we performed some diplo missions, for which they sieged another ascn town on Jan 15.

15) Their attacks continued till Jan end. 

16) Asusual feb tourney started their attacks stopped , then on feb 25 they attacked our ally town. we scouted all their towns to see for any possible siege operations.

17) In response to this they razed code's town in tallimar on 3rd March

18) we moved few more towns right next to their doorstep. This combined with our diplo mission plus other external factors made them to start negotiate for ceasefire. we asked "baynights\luta exo out of north along with recently exodused towns into north".

19) while the negotiations were ongoing they still moved more towns in response to this, we attacked some of their towns and eliminated cavs and infantry.


Now PR stunt by posting in the forums to paint us as the aggressors and also threatening our players alt accounts which are in other alliances.



So basically this is my version of the events, I would like to see what Baynights version is.. because he didn't speak with us trying to correct the difference but instead chose to attack Ascn players.


As far as other parties concerned Grom\Raps\Duran etc.. Most of you don't know what exactly happened and each one has an advantage depends on what happens here, but i would like to request you not to complicate the issue. 

As I said this is a simple ego clash , where Baynights decided to attack Ascn because of the same.


In all these aggression\sieges Ascn members never launched a fient at Saints\Falln towns till last week , where we attacked multiple towns of falln.



Those are the events as it happened.


Now coming to other posts:

"To my knowledge Saints/Iron had an entirely good reason for the initial attacks... certainly better than the cacus belli for the Tcol/Rum war"

Can you elaborate the reason? I have been trying to understand that for a while now with no communication from the other side.

"I am not aware of any personal grievances of our members against anyone that was in nCrow. As you mentioned, it was simply a case of choosing to align with Tcol and to claim territory as a part of CDS. Although nCrow was not aggressive in this claim, they had Tcol's backing to raze anyone who entered, and Tcol had declared war against us. What was asked was simply to drop the confed. Their response was to disband the alliance. We cannot control how players choose to respond, but regardless it did stop any hostilities against their members. "

Pure BS. did you contact Ncrow and asked them to drop the confed before sieging them? I'm not aware of any military action from Ncrow side which supported Tcol or vice versa. The confed with Tcol was a forced once if my understanding is right.


"In the case of nCrow members who did lose cities (there were few), we are open to discuss repairing the damage. This will of course require us to repair our relationship first." 

There is no Ncrow left so good luck repairing the relationship


"There are players who have been wronged on all sides".

What wrong did Ascn do to your side? I'm seriously looking forward to you answering this point.



Finally:

After all the stuff you did we didn't go out and complain\whine, here you are on public forum pulling a stunt just after one attack from us.  Asking for peace and while negotiations are going on still moving towns into the area in question.

The problem here is going to be trust because past few times we trusted you it didn't end well for our players.

Once again these are my personal views\ opinions on the issue and doesn't reflect Ascn. An official statement will be made once the decision has been reached after discussing with council and members.





Posted By: rajput
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 16:31
Originally posted by BayNights BayNights wrote:

Although nCrow was not aggressive in this claim, they had Tcol's backing to raze anyone who entered, and Tcol had declared war against us. What was asked was simply to drop the confed. Their response was to disband the alliance. We cannot control how players choose to respond, but regardless it did stop any hostilities against their members. Unfortunately, certain accounts stayed in nCrow or moved to the alliance and still send attacks at our members today. 

In the case of nCrow members who did lose cities (there were few), we are open to discuss repairing the damage. This will of course require us to repair our relationship first.


First of all, I showed allot of restraint by not getting into this over past year. nCrow closed its door I considered it end of it. Had allot of other RL things going on to spend time and energy on a game.

nCrow neither asked for or attacked any city in Loashin or Tamarin or any other region. nCrow neither asked any city to be moved in or out, up or down, or even sideways. We already had diplo relationships with all major alliances with cities in these regions and we maintained those diplos. 

nCrow neither asked for or supported any offense initiated by TCol. Neither did TCol asked for any support from us. nCrow never traded with TCol, neither did TCol.

nCrow's object for confed with TCol was that we did not want to go to war with anyone, not the TCol, not Ta2in, not Aseir, not Saints, not whatever came before or after that. There was no will to fight, there was allot of inactivity among the members. There were multiple instances where Rooks were unavailable for 60 days or more continuously. So I really dont understand against whom we aggressed and how...

When nCrow confed with TCol, nCrow player cities were attacked in Meila and asked to move, we complied, later on that player went bye even after prestige offering or what not. Simultaneously 2-3 cities came under siege south elgea from BayNight, player went inactive bye. (So in 2020 is not the first time BayNight attacked nCrow).

Then came 2020, SilentWater's 2 cities came under siege. I contacted Mordred no reply. Contacted BayNight told me Mordred hasnt logged on. A day passes I asked again got a reply saying that the reason for siege is that we are allied with TCol so its fair game. At the same time I came to know that Mordred is alt of BayNight and he is been stalling all this time just to cause damage. They continued to siege more of nCrow towns, the sieged 2-3 town of Lord Antonna and 1-2 town in Ursor as well. 

To me after that exchange, there was not anything further to discuss with a person who started conversation with deceit. I looked at other options, ASCN was willing to support, so my priority shifted to that and making sure everyone was able to merge with ASCN.

So not few, nCrow lost many cities due to direct actions of BayNight & co.

Again this is not about nCrow it is ASCN matter. As Mano said the main issue is trust and there is very little to go on.


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Warning! Author of this post has weird sense of humor...


Posted By: BayNights
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 18:18

We appreciate the discussion. These are very long replies, and I don’t believe we need to go through 5 years of Illy history to arrive at the peaceful decision we are proposing if that’s what players would like. That being said, I will do my best to address some incorrect information and some points I feel need to be addressed.


BTW Baynights good PR stunt. I have been trying to reach out and solve the problem peacefully for past few months, but you never replied properly even in one occassion or was open to discussion.


Spektor reached out to propose peace directly to you on 3.8.21. Before then, we did not feel the situation had escalated to a point where peace talks were needed, and I have no communication from you on this matter (please send if so). 

Our members had moved on from past instances with terras and blocking our cities and were focused on operations against Tcol. Several million troops had marched to grom’s cities when Ascn decided to attack us in earnest.


Saints then joined g! , Baynights sieged Ryklaw which made him to quit the game.


Siege? Ryklaw did not lose a single city or even have a single cat land at his towns when he abandoned. He had a total of 1 city in Tallimar. Who abandons the game on the unwarranted fear of losing 1 city when you’ve played for years? Please provide something to support this claim, as it’s something you like to state to your members often.


when i noticed this i didn't like Baynights moving to usror so i objected and tried to block their town movements,


One of our members was kicked from BSH after grom decided to shut down the alliance, and shortly after was targeted in Kul Tar with sieges. We helped defeat Tcol’s siege attempts and he escaped to the north with all his cities for safety. Shortly after, Hath settled his cities nearby and started harassing and razing innocent members of Rum. We decided to support this player in razing Tcol out of the region. They sent more cities in response which we also promptly removed. During this time, you admittedly tried to stop our efforts by blocking our cities by creating multiple accounts and using inactive sat players. You inserted yourself and multiple accounts in a conflict you had no reason to be in. This was a conflict with Tcol, and it didn’t involve you.


However after Tcol was removed.. they sieged ncrow players who were allies to Ascn and forced to disband and merge with Ascn. 


Correct in that we sieged nCrow players due to their CDS land claim and association with Tcol. Our policy is simple and we have stated it, if you the player are plotting against us by aligning with enemies who have declared war against our members, there is no alliance to hide behind or false stories to protect you. We will raze your gold accounts (as they do not help the game), and we will treat you as the enemy (because you are). If you would not like this to happen, do not support or establish diplomatic ties to our enemies. This includes harboring their gold accounts.


After this they started attacking our players in stormstone


Correct, we decided as an alliance to claim Stormstone and to secure the territory of Trome with an allied team. It was apparent at this point that your actions could not be trusted and were supportive of Tcol. We would not allow towns this close to behave in this way.


After all these we still didn't attack their towns. 


You and certain members sent many attacks at this time, many directly at my cities from your cluster at long distances. Happy to share reports.


They started expanding into Qarro near our players


As is already obvious from above statements, our members were already there and experiencing aggression from mano and Hotattack, who were actively blocking and attempting to save Tcol.


we performed some diplo missions, for which they sieged another ascn town on Jan 15.


You used .azuk (again we have reports), an account that sits in nCrow but I understand was passed to your ownership by questionable means. .azuk diplo’d almost every single city in the north (some were caught) while our troops were again fighting Tcol in the desert. Yet again, Ascn leadership (we do not blame every member of Ascn for these actions as they are likely unaware of what you’re doing based on what you tell them) was actively targeting us during a war with Tcol to support the enemy.


In response to this they razed code's town in tallimar on 3rd March


Correct, I reached out to Hotattack at this time and asked him to cease hostilities (in igm). His response on 3.1.21 was “who is azuk?” and the attacks continued. We went forward with this operation as stated that we will target every single member if they choose to remain in Ascn and support your behavior.


while the negotiations were ongoing they still moved more towns in response to this, we attacked some of their towns and eliminated cavs and infantry.


Correct, you violated our peace talks by stating that “it was still being discussed” and surprise attacked our members. Your intentions are now clear, and your members will no longer be granted the trust that we showed you.


As far as other parties concerned Grom\Raps\Duran etc.. Most of you don't know what exactly happened and each one has an advantage depends on what happens here, but i would like to request you not to complicate the issue. 


Hahahaha… The issue has become quite complicated and will remain so. Ascn has violated diplomatic trust by abusing confed/nap status of EE (now dropped), Bunch (to send attacks), VTX (to claim sov and settle next to our cities to actively target our members), Plan (to again settle next to our cities) and nCrow (for mano to send attacks and cities from .azuk). I hope that each of these alliances actively reconsiders being used for war-like efforts against our members. Please consider dropping diplo ties to an alliance that chooses to abuse them. It will be remembered, and Falln often doesn’t forget.


Our allies are united in our goals and right now you are attempting to stand in the way of them. Asking them to not “complicate the issue” is really quite hilarious.


As I said this is a simple ego clash , where Baynights decided to attack Ascn because of the same.


No ego, I have proposed peace for your alliance members and have accepted responsibility where we can. We continue to propose peaceful options for Ascn while you “decide”.


There is no Ncrow left so good luck repairing the relationship


You cannot speak for the actual nCrow members (and .azuk doesn’t count, who continues to attack us). If nCrow members would like to connect, please reach out to us directly.


After all the stuff you did we didn't go out and complain\whine, here you are on public forum pulling a stunt just after one attack from us.  Asking for peace and while negotiations are going on still moving towns into the area in question.

 

The problem here is going to be trust because past few times we trusted you it didn't end well for our players.

 

Once again these are my personal views\ opinions on the issue and doesn't reflect Ascn. An official statement will be made once the decision has been reached after discussing with council and members.


It looks like your “discussions with council and members” is going well! It must be some discussion to take 3 weeks. Please continue to abuse our cease fire and proposed NAP by targeting our members, while saying that you can’t trust us.


Although we have extended our peace offer, we are starting to tire of your games. Your leadership is continuing to attack us and abuse our many offers. I trust that your discussions will end soon as this situation will not be endured for much longer.


If individual members of Ascn would like to reach out to discuss terms, please feel free. This is not the situation we were hoping for.


23 Mar 2021 15:02 - FW: Victorious defense by Promethee's forces at Fortress of Tarnost under attack by HotAttack's forces from Q Nancy c1 60 cav par 


23 Mar 2021 05:32 - FW: Failed defense by Promethee's forces at Fortress of Tarnost under attack by HotAttack's forces from Q Nancy c1 60 cav par


21 Mar 2021 06:51 - FW: Failed defense by Promethee's forces at Fortress of Tarnost under attack by Pure's forces from Shush Now


18 Mar 2021 12:06 - Failed defense by BayNights's forces at Cerberus under attack by .Azuk's forces from ..f.tdz42-Kissimmee



Posted By: BayNights
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 18:47
Rajput - understood and thank you for the background on nCrow (we are no experts in nCrow history). In the future I would suggest that if you confed/nap with an alliance at war, be sure to at least reach out and discuss with the alliance they are warring against so they know your intentions. Tcol stated this was a much larger land claim and touted CDS as under their control.

If SilentWater and LordA would like to discuss rebuilding support we are happy to have them reach out directly to help.


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 19:05
We always explained the CDS was a shared initiative with each alliance having the responsibility for and sovereignty over their own provinces. The confed with nCrow was most certainly not a forced one. If anything it functioned like an extended NAP. 


Posted By: player 1
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 20:47
ill just leave this here 
   


                     03 Sep 03:31]<Sir Bradly> they have little fight in them
[03 Sep 03:31]<BayNights> had my finger on the abandon but decided to carry on
[03 Sep 03:31]<Fiona> haha ikr
[03 Sep 03:32]<BayNights> yeah I guess ascn is sending at least
[03 Sep 03:32]<Sir Bradly> lol
[03 Sep 03:32]<Sir Bradly> ok I m out


Posted By: Snagglepuss
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 21:32
at the peril of "getting involved", I would like to point out that I am in the unique position of knowing two sides of the story, having been on the TCol Leaders Council, and having been the leader of Ta2in. 

While nCrow may never have actively participated in actions of military importance, it isn't exactly true to claim that there were no plans for such?? It was simply not to be, as the members of nCrow never got motivated or organized into the position in the CDS that they were originally supposed to realize. 

Baynights and I have fought for 4 years. I have basically fought Baynights with most of the people commenting on this post, and I have fought against the other half. I have known my passion for this game and the style I play has led me down roads that every single one of you has questioned at least once. I have put the past aside, despite instances (most were self inflicted) far worse than anyone has explained in this post, and tried to make it as right as I could. I know some of you will never forgive me for some of my behavior, but that's on you. 

I fight with Baynights because we have a common interest. and, as always, I will support him the way I do everyone else that stands with me.


5 year grudges, man??? Some of you are letting this game eat you up


Posted By: TheBillPN
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2021 at 21:51
Originally posted by BayNights BayNights wrote:


Hahahaha… The issue has become quite complicated and will remain so. Ascn has violated diplomatic trust by abusing confed/nap status of EE (now dropped), Bunch (to send attacks), VTX (to claim sov and settle next to our cities to actively target our members), Plan (to again settle next to our cities) and nCrow (for mano to send attacks and cities from .azuk). I hope that each of these alliances actively reconsiders being used for war-like efforts against our members. Please consider dropping diplo ties to an alliance that chooses to abuse them. It will be remembered, and Falln often doesn’t forget.



On behalf of The Atreides Bunch [Bunch], we have not, do not, and will never condone such attacks against another alliance without any warning, notice or approval. Any such attacks have been made without our knowledge, and are not representative of who we are. We are a peaceful alliance and always will remain so, with any and all military might we possess used to participate in tournaments. 

I assume it is this attack you are referring to:

Originally posted by BayNights BayNights wrote:


21 Mar 2021 06:51 - FW: Failed defense by Promethee's forces at Fortress of Tarnost under attack by Pure's forces from Shush Now



Even though I am not the leader of Bunch, it was I that approved Pure's entry to Bunch as a place to stay for a peaceful member of an alliance I was once part of over three years ago. It was entirely my recommendation that they were allowed to join, with no other greater knowledge amongst the alliance members. Pure has since left Bunch and regardless of which side of this is telling the truth, Bunch will not become involved to even the smallest degree. 


As professional as this statement sounds, I am not the representative of Bunch and I am most certainly not the leader (Misty + Paul are our most wonderful commander in chiefs). I felt that it was on me to say something since it was me who was most directly responsible for the member you have mentioned existing within our alliance. If the leaders of Bunch would like to add anything to this statement, they are very welcome to, although I suspect it would mostly be to clarify our desire to remain out of any entanglements and maintain our peaceful existence making not nearly enough cows and beer. 



Posted By: Mad_Mano
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2021 at 05:53
Yeah it is a long mail.. i just copy pasted what i have been saying in many channels for a while now.


You didn't really answer any of the questions i raised but instead went on to counter my facts.. anyway that is also good because now i can show to the citizens of illyriad what a liar you are and how you are spinning up stuff.


"I don’t believe we need to go through 5 years of Illy history"  -- It is not 5 yrs.. it all started on 2019 August iirc so less than 2 years.


"Spektor reached out to propose peace directly to you on 3.8.21. Before then, we did not feel the situation had escalated to a point where peace talks were needed, and I have no communication from you on this matter" -  Correct Spektor reach out to me on the said date, before that you did not feel the need for peace talks because we didn't scout your towns in single night or exodused multiple towns on your door step or respond to your aggression in any way, I didn't mail you or spektor for that matter because we didn't get proper response from you both in previous cases.


04 Jul 2020 07:41 - Stormstone sieges we contacted Iron and multiple parties.
07 Nov 2020 15:33 - Trome sieges we contacted spektor.

There are other instances also where we tried to reach out and settle the difference but didn't get proper response for your side.


"Siege? Ryklaw did not lose a single city or even have a single cat land at his towns when he abandoned. He had a total of 1 city in Tallimar. Who abandons the game on the unwarranted fear of losing 1 city when you’ve played for years? Please provide something to support this claim, as it’s something you like to state to your members often"


Someone who doesn't want war and wants to be left alone? 

"It seems he is serious in taking my city. If so, let him destroy me. 

I hate war. "

This was the last message he sent before abandoning iirc , at this time he had two incomings siege speed along with 300k-500k troops on his door step. I think you went to raze his towns after that.



I really didn't follow what was happening with Tcol and you.. I had no idea why Rum and Tcol were at war or why you sieged Hath.

My motivation was simple, I didn't like you placing towns near me after your actions against Ascn. so i tried to object it and block the movements but anyway after talking with Rum leadership i did exo away.


"During this time, you admittedly tried to stop our efforts by blocking our cities by creating multiple accounts and using inactive sat players".


Again a false claim.. I moved one town from my account madmano. I asked for terras in ac and then hired a terraformer "horseapples" to block another spot.. Azad2 noticed the discussions going on in our skype and moved one town. I didn't ask him to do that , I was surpirsed when i found his town there.

"I have a terra ready to send out a settler at this time, terra account is HorseApples. Let me know what res mix you need and where to send it." -- quoted exactly from the terraformer mail.


"You and certain members sent many attacks at this time, many directly at my cities from your cluster at long distances. Happy to share reports."

hmm weird.. I don't remember sending attacks at your tallimar towns or your towns in north for that matter untill 18 Mar 2021. I would definitely like to see the reports you are talking about especially the ones which involved my troops, I don't recall anyone attacking any of your towns either, but i can't verify this fact because someone could have and didn't send the report to alliance but still i'm 95% sure no one attacked your towns. I did send armies at your blockades and sieges on Ascn players in stormstone and Trome. If I wanted to attack you I would have hit your towns in north, it doesn't make sense to send armies at towns which are 700sqs+ when you have other options at 300sqs.

"As is already obvious from above statements, our members were already there and experiencing aggression from mano and Hotattack, who were actively blocking and attempting to save Tcol." 

Again a false accusation.. If I wanted to help Tcol I could have killed those sieges, As i mentioned we only placed 3 towns near you trying to block and after discussion with Rum I exodused away my town which i placed near you and remaining two towns were razed by The orc. .All this happened before Jun 2020 iirc. Your expansion started around Nov-2020 i think.


we performed some diplo missions, for which they sieged another ascn town on Jan 15.

"You used .azuk (again we have reports), an account that sits in nCrow but I understand was passed to your ownership by questionable means. .azuk diplo’d almost every single city in the north (some were caught) while our troops were again fighting Tcol in the desert. Yet again, Ascn leadership (we do not blame every member of Ascn for these actions as they are likely unaware of what you’re doing based on what you tell them) was actively targeting us during a war with Tcol to support the enemy."

There are two wrong facts here:

Azuk has been my alt, but only few people knew that.. I abandoned my alt and started Azuk since i wanted to break blag's record of most number of towns(40) . I did do that but then he broke azuk's record(45).
I kept that within my trusted circle because azuk's main objective was 40+ towns and i didn't want him to get dragged into wars or stuff back then. "Dittobite,WildThron,Cormoran,Count Rupert,Deb,Thanes,Malek" were few of the people who knew azuk was my alt from day 1.

I never said we didn't diplo your towns.. but the fact to notice here are the dates.

On Dec 15, you sieged hotattack and Rupe towns on Qarro.

Your attacks continued on our players till Jan end according to the reports I have in my mailbox, during this time we did scout few towns to identify any sieges. we also came under heavy onslaught of thieves.

Then on Feb 25th , The orc attacked Pure who was in Bunch relocating his towns since you sieged him in Trome.

In response to this Azuk did scout all falln towns in Ursror\Qarro on the same day to identify any potential sieges.

Now the timing here was pure coincidence, entire ascn council\leadership knew i was away during the mid of feb (7-23) due to rl reasons, so i had no idea what was going on that time. So when i came to know about The orc attack on pure i launched diplos without waiting.. Then only i found out that there was ops against Tcol and only after seeing diplo reports i came to know falln was also in that ops.

However the scout reports also revealed that most of your towns near Ascn players were building infantry\siege engines even though they were on arctic sov for spears. Hence we decided to move more towns in to support the players during which we found you were moving more towns so we decided to kill your sieges on terra.



"We went forward with this operation as stated that we will target every single member if they choose to remain in Ascn and support your behavior"

This has always been the solution for you right.. even though i tried to keep Ascn and everyone out of the problems between us two, you always seem to find some reason to attack Ascn. Azuk was not in Ascn when he diplo'd falln.



"Correct, you violated our peace talks by stating that “it was still being discussed” and surprise attacked our members"


12 Mar 2021 17:52 - Till this period the negotiations was going.. 

Basically I proposed "Baynights\Luta will exo out of north" and Spekor countered it saying we can exo few towns if Ascn give the prestige to rebuild.

18 Mar 2021 06:20 - On this date i was even open to the idea of giving the prestige required for you to move away and suggested to give a Tome.

But on the same day i came across various messages\ mails you were sending to our allies, players.. on top that we found both You and Luta had towns which had started exodus recently. So essentially you were the one who violated the negotiations and in response we attacked few of your towns.



"Ascn has violated diplomatic trust by abusing confed/nap status of EE (now dropped), Bunch (to send attacks), VTX (to claim sov and settle next to our cities to actively target our members), Plan (to again settle next to our cities) and nCrow (for mano to send attacks and cities from .azuk)"


Good Try there

we did get permission from EE players before moving in.. it is unforunate the message was not conveyed to the leadership.

It is my understand Pure never sent attacks at falln towns when he was in bunch. It was falln who attacked Pure and Bunch leadership is also aware of those attacks, I see he has dropped recently and the timing in your notification clearly shows he was not in Bunch when he attacked.

NCrow - As i said azuk has been my alt from day 1 and was part of ncrow for quite a long time, that's how i became close with Ncrow players and knew about all the things which was going on there, when Ascn decided to merge with Ncrow i moved my alt to Ncrow to help with players moving.


"No ego, I have proposed peace for your alliance members and have accepted responsibility where we can. We continue to propose peaceful options for Ascn while you “decide”."

Haha what a joke.. you were the one who started attacking ascn and continued to attack our player for past 1.5 years. Even in recent times Falln was the one who started the attack and what you didn't expect  our response, you came to us with ceasefire and we told we don't trust you so gave you the best deal i could, but then you chose to ignore it and moved more towns.. which resulted in us attacking you now you are here on forum spinning stories filled with lies and no real facts or proof.


"It looks like your “discussions with council and members” is going well! It must be some discussion to take 3 weeks. Please continue to abuse our cease fire and proposed NAP by targeting our members, while saying that you can’t trust us."

19 Mar 2021 13:58 - This is when Spektor again countered the offer after our attacks
20 Mar 2021 07:21 - when i told i will forward the message to council
22 Mar 2021 06:45 - when this forum thread was created by you.

And i'm still here responding, not stalling. It is you who is not respecting the negotiations and continue to exodus more towns.


So basically I think i have given enough proof\facts to prove every point you said was a lie and your attempt to spin the story away.


I'm not aware of the forums rules, whether IGM can be posted here so i have kept it off the forums, if anyone wants to see any of the mails or communications which i have highlighted in this post, please feel free to contact me via IGM.


So to summarise 

"Baynights has a problem with me and hotattack, he decided to attack Ascn players for that because they are easy targets and Ascn is not a pvp\war allaince. Given I'm in leadership position whatever i say in gc is taken in wrong way and spinned up as Ascn stance. As much as i try to keep it apart and make it clear, he seems not to understand that or even if he understands he just ignores it cause then it will prove that he has been the aggressor\lying for the entire time"

"On many occasion he has been saying we are helping tcol we are hiding their gold farms etc.."

Ascn is very casual alliance we don't have any special requirements to join us.. we don't vet the players or anything, so it is easy to sneak in a spy or gold farm into Ascn without our knowledge.Most of our players never take part in gc or in any political talks, so basically we are minding our own stuff , so we are not keeping track of what is happening between Tcol and Falln or anything

As i mentioned above the timing of events were pure coincidence, you moved to north to siege tcol i have no idea what happened before that. I noticed you moving north so i objected which happened last year, The orc attacked our ally on feb25, so i scouted all your towns.


"I have stated it many times and i'm stating it again in here , that Ascn is not working with Tcol, As mentioned it is easy to sneak in a gold farm\spy account into Ascn. Give me proof that the account is Tcol gold farm\spy, i will happily kick that player out of Ascn."


BTW atleast in your next post answer the questions or give the facts\proof instead of spinning up stories.. I have very little time for the game and i'm tried of repeating the same thing over and over to you for years.



Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2021 at 07:53
I'll refrain from getting bogged down in details. The sheer amount of lies I'd need to respond to otherwise is simply overwhelming (I will say we have no alt-farms in Ascn) . Bottom line from my PoV is that Bay has viewed Ascn as a target ever since he failed to get them to do his bidding when he ran to them for help during the Saints/Tcol war. This isn't likely to change long term. Like most egocentric pvp players he goes for the easy targets (isolated, bad terrain, casual player), because every time in the past few years that he sieged a well placed, active opponent in a military alliance, he had his arse handed to him. This even held true in the recent sieges on myself, despite the fact that he had considerable outside help from Sin and Ta2in. So once he, again, needs to concede defeat (which in his case usually means abruptly disbanding his alliance) I have little doubt he'll again look at the perceived easy targets to boost morale. Whether he'll be firmly entrenched on spear sov right next door to Ascn when he does, who can say? 


Posted By: Snagglepuss
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2021 at 09:03
so much for discussion, I believe other members have posted, not just Mano, and have mentioned 5 year grudges?? Don’t be obtuse and read the thread? EVERYONE picks easy targets to start the war...accusing Bay of that makes no sense as it is a staple of PVP play. I did it in TCol with Groms blessing? He sure never complained about it then? As Mano says, no on knows the whole truth? Maybe some of the more frightened and pompous posters here will realize that and let the diplomacy happen or not happen. This is getting ridiculous. It’s apparent that both sides have done a fair amount of shenanigans. Are we really going to continue to hash out who was MORE at fault?? Move on or say no to the  diplomacy?  


Posted By: Grom
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2021 at 12:08
"let the diplomacy happen or not happen", "Move on or say no to the  diplomacy?"

These gems actually had me laughing out (quite) loud. Possibly because I imagined a bored toddler brought to a meeting shouting "stop talking and let the diplomacy happen!" before holding his breath in protest until his face turned red. 


Posted By: Dessembrae
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2021 at 15:53
Originally posted by Grom Grom wrote:

"let the diplomacy happen or not happen", "Move on or say no to the  diplomacy?"

These gems actually had me laughing out (quite) loud. Possibly because I imagined a bored toddler brought to a meeting shouting "stop talking and let the diplomacy happen!" before holding his breath in protest until his face turned red. 

As a toddler I take offense to me being involved in this discussion in such a fashion, I would never hold my breath I would be spitting at everyone involved!


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AKA Agalloch The Rude


Posted By: Silverblade
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2021 at 16:40
Crazy timing to return back to the game, back in 2014 I remember being under the leadership of Bay. Now it seems I've ended up on the opposing side over time after leaving for a bit. These "5 year grudges" if there are some don't apply to me and if these talks didn't conclude on a non-aggression stance, I wouldn't personally see any reason to continue the war other than the strategic advantage Falln has near main hub and the lack of trust between Ascn and Falln. 

In essence, If both parties want to come to peaceful solution. That discussion should occur between leadership privately of course taking into consideration the view of the alliance as a whole. Forum discussion often agitates the two parties taking jabs at each other in order to prove whether one party is right or the other. 

Either way, it's been a fun time to return and I'm enjoying seeing these forum discussions like I used to in the past

AKA Aurelian. 


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Aurelian - Eternal Flame Council - Ascn


Posted By: Jejune
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2021 at 18:58
My two cents: there seems to be a desire to decide on whether peace in this conflict can be negotiated or not. Winning an argument on who is ultimately to blame is not how you broker peace. Assigning blame is going to be impossible to agree on -- all of the arguing over what led to the conflict in this forum thread proves this. 

In order to determine if peace can negotiated, both parties need to drop the blame game and simply put on the table what they want. If you can find a middle ground between what both sides want, then you'll have a peace accord. 

This kind of negotiation cannot and should not be conducted multilaterally in the forums. You'll never get to the heart of the negotiation with all of the "noise" from other players (including me). You need to IGM one another one-on-one or grab some time in Slack and hash it out.

But understand this: You will never agree on who is at fault. And that shouldn't be a prerequisite for peace, anyway.


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https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/a/p/394156" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: BayNights
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2021 at 04:24
Agreed with the feedback from everyone here. Thank you Mano for corrected errors where there may have been. Good to see Grom and Snags arguing in the forum :) Ag - this thread is blessed with your presence which is a true achievement. Aurelian, it's good to see you again my battlefield comrade. And Jejune, your guidance is spot on.

I am happy to report that, despite me being almost a day behind on the forums and not having read all the recent posts before our discussion, Mano and I have chatted directly. We are committed to moving on from our past skirmishes and finding not just peace for our members but something better.

We'll make a forum announcement as we finalize details. Once again, appreciate all the interaction here. We have a great community.


Posted By: Duran
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2021 at 05:34
Well, I’m happy this is going to end in a peaceful facet. Hopefully we’re all informed about what the agreement will be. As this has been extremely enlightening. Just for the game as a whole to see this be brought about this way. Really looking forward to the end result! Great job Mano and BayNights!

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"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"


Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2021 at 13:33
The arguing was far more interesting to me than peace will be. But I guess we will see how it plays out. 

Cheers


Posted By: Wild
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2021 at 16:06

Apologies, I shall be doing no quotes etc. 
This is a QUICK REPLY... 
I personally am happy this chat became public and grateful for all the opinions and thoughts also. I think illy politics is the biggest thing in the game, and GM StormCrow did once agree on that. What stops some from enojying the game, is when it becomes personal, some like Snaggle~Raps are thick skinned, ;p but not all of us are. Wacko

I do believe Bay, whom I've known a long time (and in RL wish all the best!) may have reacted to a PC a little sooner than should have to this thread he has created.
Terms for "peace", though no war was ever declared all this time Ascn have dealt with aggression in a good few forms, are going to take longer than some may think and hope. 
Reason being, Ascn are unhappy with the close proximity of the new cities in Qaro... 

If there is no agreeable moving of ANY of the cities on the doorstep of where Ascn were first, ceasefire is the maximum anybody can hope for and I sincerely apologise to our friends in the middle of this. We have never actually tried to help TCol actively - but if that is how it is spun, um - Good luck to TCol?  (yep, never dreamt ever would say that XD) 

I think what we all can and should agree on is... please! No more players forced out of the game due to unwelcome PVP, we have lost too many amazing players already! 

Be safe, sensible and respectful folks. 
Regards and Please do continue the thought process here, it surely is the right forum for politics and diplomacy! 

Approve



Posted By: Ryklaw
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2021 at 04:09
A partial truth is still a lie. 

Ryklaw was presented with an ultimatum affecting many honorable players, which included abandonment by Ryklaw without disclosing details... In short, I was forced from the game which BN is well aware.

I have enjoyed a rich life away from Illy for over a year. This brief view into Illy forum reminds me that life is better filled with honest relationships absent of the emotional investment required to respond to digital deceptions. 

I wish all the best


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Finishing the Race!
II Tim 4:7,8


Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2021 at 09:55
Hi Ryklaw! 

If you return to the game again, I have three of your cities that I bought for a hefty sum of 100m gold per town. Thought it would be cool to have some of your towns, since well, they belonged to you, a veteran of the game and had all research done as well as the famine management discoveries. 
You put a lot of work into building your account up. Then one day, after given an ultimatum and after placing your towns in Jurgor, the button was hit. Obviously you could not defend all your towns from the aggressors, who were only looking to have a good fight. It seemed to be a statement. However that statement didn't really work. Players continue to find pleasure in removing others, or attempting to take control of regions. But with that said, coming into the forums to flame the game seems like a meh thing to do. If you don't play anymore, why antagonize the rest of us who enjoy the game? Just curious what your need to do that came from? 
You are missed, but not if you are still pissed.


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PublicRelations
HumanResources


Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2021 at 00:58
Miss you Ryklaw. I am also enjoying life more outside of Illy.


Posted By: Smopecakes
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 18:05
I see there is (or at least was) more going on than I knew of. Regarding the BL/Stormstone/Trome occurrence which Mano asked of me, to my knowledge it was a matter of a chat ban insult which the details are better forgotten and against forum rules to discuss. I see it as BL towns of the player I mentioned being attacked and then Stormstone and Trome coming in as a package deal as Iron/Saints were not comfortable with Ascn clusters near them afterward.

Regarding Ncrow I was directly aware of the situation and the trigger was Pure Water was believed to have recently moved towns very close to a coalition player leading to the belief this was a set up for a siege by Tcol.

One disputed event I could also mention on was the siege of Hotattack and Rupe. I believe this was triggered by scouting of coalition players before the previous tournament. I personally expected Ascn to attack after that tourney as I don't think they competed for first in it and the scouts were tracked to the Ascn cluster with Hotattack as the believed source (by me and I think others) 

Seeing they did not attack I assume the scouts were actually for tournament purposes, and my expectation of Ascn retaliation for Stormstone was entirely a wrong assessment of their intentions and attitude

(Fyanna)


Posted By: Smopecakes
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 23:18
One forgotten detail is the background of the attack on Ryklaw... after the Sindicate war was over a number of Sin players had abandoned and restarted with new accounts or had been ringed. Some Ascn players were still sieging the one towners including in G! which was the reason G! made the demand of Ascn players to exo from their area as far as I know

Anyhow, salute to Ascn for an epic siege, many were Falln but some say the damage is never done



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