Versus Animals Doesn't Work
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Strategies, Guides & Help
Forum Name: General Questions
Forum Description: If your gameplay question isn't answered in the help files, please post it here.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=10830
Printed Date: 16 Apr 2022 at 18:09
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Versus Animals Doesn't Work
Posted By: TheBillPN
Subject: Versus Animals Doesn't Work
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2020 at 22:34
|
Hello all, I've recently been informed that the animal buffs on equipment doesn't work as stated? Presumably less than expected otherwise there would be nothing to complain about. Two questions then: How much worse than stated is it? Is there a possible fix for this issue? Many thanks, TheBillPN
|
Replies:
Posted By: Rill
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2020 at 01:53
| I've heard that rumor but never seen the underlying data that confirm it. |
Posted By: Kimmyeo
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 21:49
| Are you still playing, Rill? I don't think I ever met you but I have heard of you. I noticed your account went away pretty recently. |
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2020 at 10:13
Hey Bill, As far as we are aware, vs animals is working as intended. However - of course, and this is a general rule! - if anyone has any specific data that shows otherwise, we'd certainly look at it; and if there's anything to fix I'll make sure it gets fixed. However - and I can't stress this enough - anecdotal evidence isn't really actionable. So I'd urge anyone who thinks that combat bonuses vs animals: a) isn't working, or b) is partially working (and if this is the belief, in what sense is it only partially working, and what data shows this belief to be the reality?) ... to provide some actual data (combat reports etc) showing how it is (or isn't) working as one believes it should be. Definitely listening at this end! Best, SC |
TheBillPN wrote:Posted By: Bolism
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 03:31
|
Since I joined the game late 2017, I always been informed that the animal gear doesn't work, by damn good hunters. And it's not something new, there been post in the forum since before I joined, https://forum.illyriad.co.uk/combat-equipment-and-divisional-bonuses_topic6486.html%20" rel="nofollow - https://forum.illyriad.co.uk/combat-equipment-and-divisional-bonuses_topic6486.html
I tested those vs animal bonus last year again after finally crafting the skysplinter gear. For my tests I totally gave up on vs animal since they don't seem to have received the x5 scaling of others gear in 2015. A boar spear worse than razor-edge spear to fight some animals :o I'm ok to redo some testing if i find motivation but can't guarantee it :p |
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 09:45
Many thanks for this, and the link to the 2017 post. But here's my question - are we saying: a) That the vs animal equipment bonus is working, but isn't buffed enough (eg x5 scaling), and that other equipment is actually better... - or b) That the vs animal equipment bonus isn't working at all Code-wise... that's a huge difference. Best, SC
|
Posted By: Bolism
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 08:51
| Not scaled correctly, I'll create some new fresh commanders tomorrow and will send few on suicidal missions, I'll report then. |
Posted By: Bolism
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 02:58
|
Test1:
- terrain: Plains - attacking army: Cav Total defense vs Cav: 845 = (8x32 + 4x51 + 3x72) x (1 + 25%) = 676 x 1.25 Army sent:
Either way it's higher than the def and should get a win (if I didn't messed up :D ): 721.5+148.148=869.648 721.5+163.54 = 885.04 Results: (https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/External/CombatReport/AQAAAHQNRjrIMmLpC4VdWWlZujY8OAqyKtiZ8HmWLwgo5frMo3MDoN-NXP0=) Despite your troops' defeat, word reaches you concerning the defenders' forces in this battle.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Posted By: Bolism
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 05:26
|
Test2: Despite your troops' defeat, word reaches you concerning the defenders' forces in this battle.
Report: https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/External/CombatReport/AQAAALidnLSlv0FgP8j2Ax2zl-EjM35Nq2yxUghZ9Db2TryWMhEykJThNgA= Calculation: Defense: (large hills) 34x66+17x81+8x100+5x142=5131 5131x0.9=4617.9 cav def on large hills Attack: no elite
I'll make some more test with some stronger commanders to see how far it is! |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Posted By: Bolism
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 06:53
|
Test3: Despite your troops' defeat, word reaches you concerning the defenders' forces in this battle.
Report: https://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/External/CombatReport/AQAAAEhf-CD3SIWc5BCh0KtJ3I9wZXVeg7QsNjwEDwkyc7p2AIiY1QTM_sE= Small forest: whole calculation on that spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vQ1EfCAM0pC6RH5oQ2KWRlFy3c0Tsz-zEr1WaJg0tlY/edit#gid=1443502364 << I based the boar spear on 104 (120%animal -16% attack) |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 19:37
|
Hey Bolism, This is *extremely* useful. I'll analyze it over the next couple of days, and see where we go from there. Many, many thanks indeed. Regards, SC
|
Posted By: yeast
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 23:12
|
Posted By: yeast
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 23:14
|
Posted By: yeast
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 23:19
|
hi, i've done tests year ago. result as above but the battle reports are gone My model (cmd att * Casualty) + (Troop att * Cas) = (Rat Def * Cas) (cmd att * Casualty) = Rat def Lost - (Troop att * Cas) cmd att efficiency = [ Rat def Lost - (Troop att * Cas)] / (cmd att * Casualty) all troops i used were bows. The commanders i used were 4 cavs or 3 cavs + 1 bow iirc. Except t13 which all bow commanders were recorded clearly Data processing Defender lost = Total def vs cav * Casualty This is coz the majority of my commanders' att is cav Equivalent to cav troop att = Bow troop att * Total def vs cav / Total def vs bow i emulate the bow attack to being received by d.v. cav, so it can be better compared to my commander att (mainly cav) Cmd att efficiency = [ Def Lost - (Eqvl. to Cav troop att * Cas)] / (Cmd att * Casualty) How i calculate commander attack
Mod = (Weapon + Armor + Steed) * Elite + 1 Total att = Base * Mod * Terrain * Amount Why do i think my model is working? look at t4 t5 (all terrain gears). It looks like it is working. That's enough for me. I didnt design it for accurate measurement Result The more animal gear a commander wears, the more crappy he is as if compared to terrain gears. But animal gears are still better than naked. Eliteness doesn't seem to be the factor which cause the malfunctioning of animal gears
|
Posted By: Wartow
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 15:15
First report, commander with full heroism and full charge. In this first attack the commander had a boar spear (no armor, no mount), the troops were without equipment.
Second report, same commander but without the boar spear, same number of unit troops without equipment.
Second NPC unit is a little smaller than the first. Terrain was the same for both attacks (plains). I'm not sure the NPCs are big enough to notice a difference of a knight commander with a boar spear versus that same commander without equipment? What would be the best parameters to demonstrate what we are looking for here? The attacks were 24 minutes apart as both NPC parties were close to the city. ------------- 
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Posted By: Salamander
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2020 at 03:44
|
You are probably killing off troops at -16 attack and then getting the bonus only on the survivors
------------- Was once Samalander until the forum lost my login now Salamander |
Posted By: OssianII
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2020 at 12:04
 Ok! Bring on that freek Wartow. I got crappy stats on my side  ------------- “If anyone was to ask for my opinion, which I note they’re not, I’d say we were taking the long way around.” Gimli son of Gloin. |
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2020 at 00:12
|
This data is all *extremely* useful. Still analysing, but I send out massive props to everyone in this thread. Except the mammoths. We have them, and we're not afraid to use them. Regards, SC
|
Posted By: TheBillPN
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 14:21
|
I would like to echo GM Stormcrow here and say a massive thank you to everyone who has contributed reports and knowledge to this. I would never have thought so many people would also be interested. I am about to attack a legion with two separate armies, one equipped and one not, to provide my own reports to the list. I'll report them back in about 20mins.
|
Posted By: TheBillPN
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 15:15
|
Okay, small delay because I forget getting absolutely annihilated means you don't get a report. Initial Scout report:
First army to land was the army "Not Equipped 2", consisting of entirely of bow units, 100 Sentinels and a level 20 (Heroism and Forced March) Elven Trueshot commander. Comprehensively crushed. Second Scout report:
This unequipped naked army killed a total of 280 enemies. Second army to land was "Equipped 2". Same troop composition, identical commander, but all 100 units and commander were equipped with Hunter's Bow (+120% vs animals) and Over-padded Leather Armour (+140% vs animals). As an elite division, this +260% vs animals becomes a +520%vs animals, meaning we would expect five times as many kills as the vanilla army (Please correct me if wrong). Third Scout report:
This equipped army killed 673 troops. This is about 2.4 times as many as the previous army and not even close to the expected 5.2 times as many kills. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Posted By: Solanar
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 22:15
|
I know *holidays* but BUMP. Don't let this slide to that back of your minds. |
Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2021 at 19:14
Absolutely not forgotten, Solanar. Many test iterations later, atm have been looking at whether it's the inclusion of elite units that gets counted out in the calc. So far in my investigation.... non-elite attacks with vs animal equipment looks like the calculations are correct (unless anyone has battle reports to the contrary?). The calc issue seems to appear when it's elite squads equipped with vs Nature weapons involved. Anyone with examples to the contrary (and maybe there are some, and I've missed them, in which case - many apologies - please draw them back to my attention in this thread!) Still looking into it! Best, SC
|
Posted By: flatfisher
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2021 at 21:32
|
Just test, 60+1 Elite knights took down 356 wild dogs, 4 casualties which is better than battle calculator, saying I should lose 7 units. Fully equiped with boar spear (commander&units!). Commander has 10 heroism and 15 charge (also other skills trained, but those don't count here)
Battle report: Your army has defeated the defenders and your occupation of this location has begun. Attackers: Unit: Quantity: Casualties: Survivors: Commander: Bigbird Knights Knight 1 Damaged for 6, 194 health remains. Troops: Knights Knights 60 4 56 Defenders: Unit: Quantity: Casualties: Survivors: Troops: Pups Pups 171 171 0 Troops: Wild Dogs Wild Dogs 126 126 0 Troops: Rabid Hounds Rabid Hounds 38 38 0 Troops: Pack Leaders Pack Leaders 21 21 0 |
Posted By: Rua
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 16:58
Can we expect fixes to versus animals bonus in year 2022, GM Stormcrow? |