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/rant on

Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: The Caravanserai
Forum Description: A place to just chat about whatever takes your fancy, whether it's about Illyriad or not.
Printed Date: 04 Dec 2020 at 11:39
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 -

Topic: /rant on
Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Subject: /rant on
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 12:05
I posted something similar to this in GC and was asked to do a forum thread. Here we can talk (in a civil tone) about what our concerns about Land Claims, War Runners and similar topics are. If we don't talk to each other properly, the thread will just be closed. If you want that to happen, then so be it.

So just to contribute a bit more to the ongoing talks about War Runners, Bullying and Mud Throwing in general;

The way I see it, the community will never agree on Land Claims. The community will also never agree on what a war runner is unless we teach them: 

- Real Life Definition: 
runner was a military courier, a foot soldier responsible for carrying messages during warRunners were very important to military communications, before telecommunications became commonplace.

Illyriad Definition: A war runner is a player who has been at war with an alliance and decides to leave the war. This can be for several reason, but mostly it is to save their ass from destruction, it could be because of RL issues, because they are bored or because they have some sneaky plan they want to attempt a go at later down the line.

(most players talking about it have never been at war, so how should they know what the repercussions of leaving an account untouched, after it was just at war with you - usually it comes back at you with full strength after 4 months or stays in hiding for the right moment to strike, Hi Bay). 

- Me myself and I, have been war runners in Illyriad. One time, when I changed alliances, the alliance I joined was contacted by the alliance I was at war with. It was made clear that if I stayed in the new alliance, I would be jeopardizing the whole alliance and possibly putting innocent players at risk for the actions that I had made. I would take away their fun because they did not want war. I thought fair enough, I don't want that to happen because I have compassion and love inside me.
So the leader of the alliance I joined, decided to kick me again and was sorry for the misunderstanding. All was fine again for the alliance I had joined. I had several reasons to leave the war then, and later got picked up by the same alliance that I was at war with. Good for me.

- All of the players involved in war, know why these things happen, but for some reason all the care-bears want to get involved and call out bullying. I don't get it. As soon as these things are said, the players saying them are undermining their own morale. They tell us not to play how we like to play, because they themselves don't like it, since we are somehow interfering? with their play style - but you are interfering with ours too - You call us "bullies" then start arguing, and eventually we call you out as farmers who are not a threat, and get on with what we love doing. War. Most of the time the carebears aren't involved, unless the war runner thing happens.

There are lots of different "levels" to play this game on. Casually, actively and a lot of in between. It's a long term game that requires patience. This is getting brought to your attention because people can choose to leave the game and come back. Prominent war players as well as low-key hunter gatherers often leave the game for x amount of time. If you want to leave the game whilst you are at war, you contact the alliance you are at war with and explain them the situation. And in some cases, you make a deal. 
Maybe you agree that you leave the alliance and drop all your sov, so you can't rebuild troops as fast. Maybe you agree that there is a gold compensation. You could also come to the conclusion that nothing out to happen, because you trust each other (to an extent). Communication is key, whatever it is - as well as the civil tone! :))

One thing people also need to understand, is that there are players who create new accounts, abandon them until they are in Keshalia or Mal Motsha, and then wait for the famous "get out of the LC mail" to thereafter create as much friction as humanly possible, come to GC for all to see, and mostly to annoy. It's the same two or three people that do it again and again.

And we just won't agree on these things. The players who call others bullies will always have the mentality they do and it cannot be changed; yet we argue and discuss it again and again. I'm happy to discuss it, because I am steadfast on my point of view. That it creates content in this game, and that you can just stay clear of it if you don't want to do with it. 
Then you would of course argue that you don't want to have to stay clear of anything... Well okay :D good luck with that. Why do you obey to the 10square rule then? or the dont harvest on my sov rule. or any rules whatsoever.

Food for thought.



Posted By: Thor 2
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 12:37
I understand PR and I can see both sides and I can understand that it is a play style that some alliance are taking and making a stance however what made illy great for me was the helping of new players and more and more new people coming on board but these things are changing.

I feel it is sucking the life out of me as a player I love this game and I love everyone in illy be they war mongers traders peace seekers or crafters I have the privilege of being one of the most neutral players in illy and I have helped to at least my knowledge every alliance in illy at some point and a HELL of a lot of its players.

for me it has been key that the following occur:

1. I don't do illy politics I help everyone and any one in need (this is changing and I don't like it). anyone no questions asked (also changing don't like it) new people (less and less of them I don't like it)

4. stay out of the politics (getting harder to sit back and watch the bad things happen as proof by me on the forum)

5.stay neutral and stay out of conflict

sorry that this is become off topic PR but watching gc has yet again pushed me closer to the edge and I had to say my peace.

Love you all please play nice


Posted By: Dracoriad
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 12:45
PublicRelations asked me to post my GC comment (as DragonnSonng) here (tidied up):

As someone w/an alt that spawned in MM I have some observations: 
  1. As long as tcol is patient and actually helps newbies, I don't hv prob w/it - I explained my situation to them and we both benefited. 
  2. Most 'real' newbies aren't going to know this and will panic when they get Zenorra's IGM. 
  3. Maybe Zenorra's IGM can be toned down a bit? When my alt received it my initial RL reaction wasn't pleasant - I think it was on the third reading that I realized the actual intention behind it.

Posted By: DeliciousJosh
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 13:02
Thor, you can still choose to help all players in the game and I doubt it would influence your position. I don't see how that is changing? Your role as a neutral player (on Thor) does indeed do a lot of good. Others do the same as you, and you are a valuable asset for the community. 
If you are getting pushed closer to an edge, it is because you are letting other peoples opinions populate your mind with their nonsense. Be yourself, and have your own thoughts.

DragonnSonng, the mail you are talking about has been changed a few times but we always ended up on the original. We do wish to spark a tad of fear, and we do wish to be serious about the statements we make - softening it up will not help our position. We also do not know who is a newbie and who is not. Everyone receives the same mail and the same help. 
Also these mails require communication. If from the start of the correspondance, the player getting mailed is defensive and withdrawn about the idea of moving, then of course we have to be understanding but at the same time tighten the grip a bit more. It is inevitable what will happen, since our presence is so dominant. A new player can find the alliance mailing them and look at the map of the alliance profile; which will paint a picture for the player. If they communicate and act understanding, the caravans with resources will be plentiful because they have reached out and asked (several times) for more resources, which they then will get.



Posted By: Dracoriad
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2020 at 18:28
"If they communicate and act understanding, the caravans with resources will be plentiful because they have reached out and asked (several times) for more resources, which they then will get."

I don't remember, is something to the effect of the above actually in that IGM? 

I have no problem with plain speech and the 3 options have to be spelled out (join, move or die). Oddly enough, I've no problem with that. LOL What I seem to be having a problem with is that TCol doesn't seem to actually care which option is chosen - and that comes through as a kind of callousness in the message. TCOL is certainly entitled to not care. But it's extraordinarily bad PR (no pun intended PublichRelations) to communicate that to newbies. 

Newbies need a ray of light in the message. Those who are new to Illyriad and have the misfortune to spawn within your land claim need a clear direction. "Unless you plan on joining TCol, you will have to move and you need to let us know which you choose. If you choose neither ..."

And of course, if you already provide that ray of light in the IGM (it's been awhile since I've seen it) feel free to ignore everything I've just said.

Posted By: Ruarc
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 08:57
There should be more discussion about this sort of thing on the forum, so I'll toss in my two cents. I really can't stress enough how much this is my personal opinion on the matter, but I am conscious that I'm technically RUM leadership and RUM's position on these issues and my own may not be totally aligned at all times so I'll try and walk that line as best I can.
War Runners
I don't have a problem with war runners. Or, rather, I don't have a problem with what we used to call persistent pursuit. If you're at war, you should stay at war until your alliances come to terms or you come to terms individually. If you don't come to terms, then - to my mind - you're fair game for the people you're still at war with.
Where I start having concerns is where persistent pursuit is used as a casus belli for widening the scope of a war. I understand the logic and strategic value of limiting the number of sources your enemy can rely upon but persistent pursuit developing into threatening other alliances doesn't achieve that. It was more than three years ago when the community was talking about yellow being the new red (" rel="nofollow - ), and it's as true then as it is now. The alliance your enemy is in does not really provide anything other than a political statement and access to the option of military support (which may already be available to your enemy depending on confeds, naps, and possibly even without those).
I agree that neither persistent pursuit nor widening the scope of the war, by themselves, are bullying but the context is important. Not offering or accepting reasonable peace terms, or saying to an alliance "Do this, or we'll stop you playing the game as you are currently and force you to fight us." could be seen as bullying. As in most things, it comes down to context, communication, and acting reasonably. I should also hope that it's possible to fight someone in Illy, be enemies, and still sit down with them for a beer.
Land claims
I like land claims. I think in an awful lot of instances they're effectively pointless, but conceptually they're an interesting idea. I haven't actually seen the TCol 'join, move, or die' IGM. Can it be posted here?
At the end of the day, it all kinda boils down to context and communication. You manage to make a bags of that and, frankly, it doesn't matter what point you may have - it won't go anywhere.

Posted By: BrianN
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 20:08
Many times, its when a newbie gets this message that they reach out in GC for some further clarification, then either the two major multiaccounters stir up their drama, or other users that "I haven't actually seen the TCol 'join, move, or die' IGM" make a joke about it that newbies panic and leave.

The current iteration of it is:


Welcome to Illyriad! I wanted to make you aware that the regions of Mal Motsha and Keshalia are claimed by The Eastern Empire (TCol). We realize that the game spawned your first city here, and that you had no choice. We will give you plenty of time to build up and exodus out. All we require is a response to this mail saying that you agree to leave and will not settle any cities here. 

Thank you!


(Directed at noone in particular) if you dont know what you are talking about, dont...and know that your reputation as a joker could be well known in illy, but it may not be for newbies.

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