New Units: Land-based Troop Transports
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: Suggestions & Game Enhancements
Forum Description: Got a great idea? A feature you'd like to see? Share it here!
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=1063
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2022 at 03:14 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: New Units: Land-based Troop Transports
Posted By: Aelfric
Subject: New Units: Land-based Troop Transports
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2010 at 16:14
I know we're getting ships to travel across bodies of water, but what about land-based transports to carry your troops so they would arrive sooner at their destination?
The transports would have high maintenance costs in the form of gold and basic resources to replace "worn out parts" to justify their benefits.
The transports have limited capacity, i.e. 600 troops or 4 siege engines per transport (the numbers are for illustration purpose). You'd still be able to transport a large army with siege engines attached if you assign enough number of transports to this army. For instance, if the army consists of 1,200 troops and 4 siege engines, three transport units are required.
Each race should have different transport: Orc: Giant beasts (if you played Borderlands, the concept is similar to http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Rakk_Hive - Rakkhive ) Dwarf: Airships or zeppelin Human: Some sort of mobile fortress (found a Warhammer version of it, but can't seem to find the website anymore) Elf: Not sure, probably just a speed buff spell at extremely high mana cost? Elves are not so keen in technology anyway.
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Replies:
Posted By: bartimeus
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2010 at 17:53
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Elves could get a magical time freeze, stopping everyone's unit movement and production for a day or so. It would cost 0 mana because everyone knows we wouldn't abuse of this capacity.
Honestly, Zeppelin? I take it you are a dwarve. This would make you able to cross water far too easely. Has much as I like flying ships, I don't think it would fit too well in the illyriad world.
If you make transport of an army too easy, the environment doesn't matter as much anymore.
Mobile fortress? I find that its a bit ridiculous as they couldn't possibly be faster than cavalry.
I think this game is fantasy/medieval oriented, airship and mobile fortress is more steampunk than anything else.
------------- Bartimeus, your very best friend.
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2010 at 18:58
There's room for airships in fantasy settings. Overdoing it might push into the domain of steampunk, but steampunk is actually a sub-genre of fantasy, and true steampunk has more to do with steam-powered computers than airships (the whole concept being predicated on Charles Babbage getting his Difference Engine built in his own time.).
As far as Illyriad is concerned, there ought to be room for air and subterranean activity without losing the value of rivers. Simply limit carrying capacity substantially and land/water travel retains its pre-eminent importance. We've already heard that there will eventually be air units as well as mythic beasts. And the Age of Wonders series has demonstrated how it could all work very well: air, ground, water, and underground could become different terrain layers with fixed access points between layers. Then all the pathfinding necessary to hold/control land or air still work, including the ability to intercept and shoot down units passing over your airspace--making air or water travel very risky without sufficient investment into escorts even if carrying capacity is high.
Your Zepplin super-carrier just crashed, taking 1,000 elite infantry and 4 commanders to their graves without ever lifting a sword. But they got there very fast without paying the bridge toll...
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Posted By: Ethelion
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2010 at 19:26
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Fixed access points for subterranean locations (i.e. holes, caves) or water (i.e. shoreline) makes since, but air locations shouldn't be constrained.
While I'm not outright opposed to airships in Illyriad, I'd prefer the flavor of air travel to be more mythical and less technological (i.e. dragons, gryphons, harpies, pegasi). They would naturally limit capacity. The need to have a near one to one mapping with ground units (i.e. make an infantry unit into a dragonrider by adding a dragon) would balance the cost with the benefit.
As for ground based transport, I think it would fit in with the world to just be able to mount the whole army on horses. It would work something like this:
When on the "Send Army" screen, there would be a check box allowing you to mount your army, which would impact the speed with which it would move. It would require Horses = Army Size - Mounted Units. Since the foot units are not trained to fight on horseback, the extra horses wouldn't impact the outcome of the battle. If your army returned/survived, the horses would stay with the army until entering your town at which point they would return to your supply. If your army were eliminated, the horses would remain with the victor.
So you would have the option to make moving your army fast, but it would be costly and potentially end up gifting a lot of horses to your enemy.
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Posted By: Zangi
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2010 at 20:01
Perhaps the transports carry the slowest units. Especially when you have more troops then transport space and you have a mixed army.
Ground Transport Space Siege - 1-2 Mounted - 50 (They will go SLOWER, but the last units to place into the Transport.) Foot - 200 (Jamming as many troops as possible into as little space as possible, no sitting space. Uncomfortable.)
Speeds Human - 10 Orc - 9 Dwarf - 10 Elf - 9 (Some foot units will go slower.) Will go slower in some terrain and faster in others, depending on race.
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2010 at 22:12
Fixed access points for subterranean locations (i.e. holes, caves) or
water (i.e. shoreline) makes since, but air locations shouldn't be
constrained. |
I think you need to consider what I said in a more literal context, as it would have to be when actually implemented as (program) logic. Air access locations are constrained to the place you launch (your city) and the place you land. Also, access to air is an airship-only thing, making it in ways far more constrained than the paths between various other layers. Otherwise, air units could intercept cavalry or ships, which is taking it too far and complicates both pathfinding and battle resolution. How do you find the interception point between two disjoint graphs, and what should a cavalry unit's attack vs airship and vice-versa be exactly?
And what about blockages? Some should penetrate the air layer while others do not (i.e. mountains slow land but block air, bridges block water, unbridged water blocks land, etc.). Airships must be able to touch land only, not arbitrarily become land or water-based vessels to get around obstacles, and a clean implementation of obstacle knowledge shouldn't require checking for content in other layers but not this one. Proper separation of concerns is aided by separation of the data in the first place. All these issues are dealt with by operating on the concept that there are no access points for air except two special per-trip ones: where you launch, and where you land. Save for these, you have your own disjoint graph in which you can map your path, possibly taking advantage of trade winds, avoiding storms, and even intercepting or avoiding other units already in the air.
Things get most exciting on any layer when you introduce the concept that at a unit/army level "there ain't room for the both of us."
As for ground based transport, I think it would fit in with the world to just be able to mount the whole army on horses [borrowed from your resource stockpiles]. |
I like this idea. A lot.
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Posted By: some random guy
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2010 at 00:41
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ok. this is what I see in the way of land/air/underground type travel: land: same units as now ground transport: humans: wagons or carts. dwarves: land sailers (basically a cart with a sail on it) elfs: land based dragons orcs: trolls pulling sledges air: elfs: giant birds humans: gliders dwarves: hot air balloons orcs: flung from a catapult (I cant think of anything better at the moment) underground: I really don't think that there should be an underground, for these reasons: 1: it will be hard to figure out where to put the best tunnel entrances to benefit all players. 2: large armies could simply cut off all entrances for newer players, resulting in less fun and more inactivity. 3: who wants to have armies getting lost in the dark without a light?
in conclusion, land units should still be the dominant units, but there should be 1 type of air unit to add another dimension to the game. also aircraft carriers would be AWESOME!!
------------- Soon, very soon, my name will become synonymous with chicken alfredo.... mmm.... chicken alfredo....
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2010 at 01:35
If you've ever played Age of Wonders, you'll have a good idea of what I'm describing here. In that world, underground isn't just a network of tunnels with two or three entrances/exits each. It's basically a whole new level of "world" with rivers and cities littered throughout. Being underground only makes it a little more confining, similar to how mountain ranges would somewhat block land movement--even non-cleared areas can still be tunneled by dwarves, with those tunnels eventually collapsing if not maintained.
In such an environment, blockading entrance/exit points would require a whole lot of power, as you'd be opposing everyone in the area above and below who wish to trade or conduct warfare between levels and need that passage to do so.
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Posted By: some random guy
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2010 at 01:53
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ah. as I have not played "age of wonders" i wasn't sure what you meant
------------- Soon, very soon, my name will become synonymous with chicken alfredo.... mmm.... chicken alfredo....
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Posted By: Aelfric
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2010 at 02:19
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HM, I haven't played it either but I could draw my imagination from playing Heroes of Might and Magic series.
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Posted By: bartimeus
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2010 at 14:39
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I watched a nice video of this game on you tube.
Multi level of game does seam nice.
Here is some of my ideas (I tend to give ideas like that so other people can build up from them using their own Idea) :
-Darves should get a bonus to tunnel digging, but every species should be able to.
-air unit should be very weak, just moving on top of a tile where enemies ranged units are should be enougth to sink them (thats actually true most of the time)
-boat travel time should be inacurate, as a storm could delay and a good weather could speed it up.
-Some tunnel would be there from the beginning (make it the ruins of an ancient civilisation) but other tunnel could be added.
-How about making the tunnel upkeep in this way; for every tunnel type (depending of the type of tile it crosses) there would be a 1/x chance that the tunel collapses every day. collapsed tunneltile would have to be redigged. Long tunnel would obviously end up having a lot of tile to be redigged every days. Collapsed tile wouldn't stop stuff passing through, but it would slow down movement so much that you would always want to keep your tunnel as clean as possible. (this way you dont complitely stop your caravan if the tunnel collapes on front of them after you loged off.) Tunels under mountains would have less chances of collapsing but would be more expansive to redigg. tunnels under rivers would be very short lived and would need a lot of maintenance.
------------- Bartimeus, your very best friend.
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Posted By: some random guy
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2010 at 20:59
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there should be digging units-units that do nothing but make tunnels. these units would have no attack or defense, and only 1 could be sent out at a time. there would be basic and advanced types, and some races would have better tunnelers than others.
it would take some time to tunnel each square, say a 2 minutes+or- a couple seconds for different types of tunneler (this seems not that much, but if you tunnel out 100 squares that is 200 minutes, or 3 1/3 hrs). once a tunnel has been dug, regular armies could pass.
there should also be different types of soil and rock: topsoil: easy to tunnel through, high collapse rate clay: medium tunneling speed, high collapse rate gravel: hard to tunnel through, high collapse rate sandstone: the "plains" of the underground shale: easy to tunnel through, medium collapse rate basalt: hard to tunnel through, low collapse rate granite: impossible to tunnel through there could be more of these, I have only listed a few.
tunneler units could be transported to the place to start tunneling in carrier units. pathfinding could be used before tunneling.
------------- Soon, very soon, my name will become synonymous with chicken alfredo.... mmm.... chicken alfredo....
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Posted By: GM Stormcrow
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2010 at 23:11
As for ground based transport, I think it would fit in with the world to just be able to mount the whole army on horses [borrowed from your resource stockpiles]. |
I like this idea. A lot.
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As do I.
We've been considering bringing in different kinds of horses in terms of carrying capacity/speed (and even esoteric things such as magic resistance to hostile movement speed spells) to the game for a while, and this might fit in very nicely. The whole idea of Horse Breeding as a "crafting skill" of sorts, and even introducing bloodlines has definitely crossed my mind.
Will ponder upon the practicalities further.
Best,
SC
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Posted By: Aelfric
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 02:51
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Bbbbbut... we dwarves only get donkeys. :( Can we get steam tanks, instead?
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Posted By: TGE
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 03:44
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I would assume that this wouldn't work for units who already have horses then? And also that the transport wouldn't make units any faster than ~12 speed, so as not to take away possibly the best part about cavalry. I'm going to request that siege engines not be transportable either.
Those suggestions are assuming transports can hold tons of units. If each transport was basically putting the soldier on a horse, I could see just adding about 5 speed and 1 upkeep cost. Maybe 10 horses for 3 extra speed and 10 extra upkeep for siege engines.
You could also call this transport some sort of herb that speeds up units, so that if could affect cavalry too.
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Comic Sans started global warming
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Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 18:33
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I'm thinking you could just attach caravans to an army to store their equipment for them, so they arent encumbered while they march. They could then move 10% faster than their basic spear unit (least armored unit - armor). They would have to stop about an hour before their destination to equip themselves for battle again. Adding a new unit (or commander upgrade), the "Quartermaster" type unit (or seasoning), could reduce this time because they are giving out equipment more efficiently.
Just putting an army on horses is also a very bad idea. Putting untrained units on horses is sure to get some of them killed, especially the heavier armored ones. Not to mention the army would be sore after riding for a questionable amount of time, reducing combat effectiveness. Add in a moral penalty and you have a useless army (some of them DIED on those horses). Horse units would also be impeded by forest and mountain terrain, so they still wouldnt get there faster if they had to go around a mountain range instead of marching through a forest (also add in more deaths the longer the time traveled). Actually trained calvary units would still move as normal and not die, because they spent time training for riding horses (or wolves).
------------- I am not amused.
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Posted By: some random guy
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 19:33
I think a spell would do a great job here. it could have various levels of efficiency, and could be in the blessings school of magic.
------------- Soon, very soon, my name will become synonymous with chicken alfredo.... mmm.... chicken alfredo....
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Posted By: bartimeus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 19:38
KarL Aegis wrote:
I'm thinking you could just attach caravans to an army to store their equipment for them, so they arent encumbered while they march. They could then move 10% faster than their basic spear unit (least armored unit - armor).
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+1
KarL Aegis wrote:
They would have to stop about an hour before their destination to equip themselves for battle again. Adding a new unit (or commander upgrade), the "Quartermaster" type unit (or seasoning), could reduce this time because they are giving out equipment more efficiently.
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I disagree, it makes it a bit too complex and 1 hour is too long. What happens if the army is attacked while unpacking.... It would be a slaugther and noone would accept to take that risk, making this option useless.
KarL Aegis wrote:
Just putting an army on horses is also a very bad idea. Putting untrained units on horses is sure to get some of them killed, especially the heavier armored ones. [...] (some of them DIED on those horses). [...] (also add in more deaths the longer the time traveled) |
They wouldn't be figthing on the horse, they would only travel there on them. They don't have to be fully harmored when travelling so I dont understand why you so desparatly want them to die on those horse (unless if you dont have enougth horse and therefor dont want others to gain this ability)
KarL Aegis wrote:
Horse units would also be impeded by forest and mountain terrain, so they still wouldnt get there faster if they had to go around a mountain range instead of marching through a forest |
Yes, I agree with you it would be nice if different units could travel at diferent speed depending on the terrain. Racial bonus would be nice too. Elves travel very fast during the day, orc travel very fast during the night (could be interesting for caravans too), darves travel easely in mountaign, armored units can't use rivere crossing.
------------- Bartimeus, your very best friend.
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Posted By: some random guy
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 19:45
so... horses AND caravans. that seems to be the logical conclusion. how would the caravans be defended in battle? I still think that a spell would do the trick here.
------------- Soon, very soon, my name will become synonymous with chicken alfredo.... mmm.... chicken alfredo....
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Posted By: bartimeus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 19:49
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Well I don't think I understand a bit of your spell idea, since you haven't explained it one bit.*
I forgot to mention in last post that maybe we could have cow to carry the twice the equipement that an horse can carry (since cow are much more valuable in game)
------------- Bartimeus, your very best friend.
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Posted By: some random guy
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 19:58
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an example: blessing of speed: your mages sprinkle a magic dust over your units. as the dust takes effect, your units start to feel light on their feet. +10% speed for your army _______. the spell could be cast from the military summary, in much the way you check "feint". It would cost about what a regular spell costs (10 mana p/h, 3 books 2 cows) and last until your army reached their destination.
------------- Soon, very soon, my name will become synonymous with chicken alfredo.... mmm.... chicken alfredo....
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Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 20:02
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add more horses to seige engines!
more horsepower = faster engine right? eh?
------------- I am not amused.
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Posted By: some random guy
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 20:10
no, not necessarily. the horses will only travel at the speed of the slowest horse, and as long as there is enough horses to pull the engine, it won't matter if there is 500 more, the siege engine will still move at the same speed.
------------- Soon, very soon, my name will become synonymous with chicken alfredo.... mmm.... chicken alfredo....
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Posted By: bartimeus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 20:23
lol
------------- Bartimeus, your very best friend.
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Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 20:43
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let me tell you, falling off a horse hurts. Alot. Then getting trampled by a thousand other horse. You gonna be:
A) hurt
B) dead
or C) not fit for combat
------------- I am not amused.
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Posted By: bartimeus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 21:20
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-Come on, I've done horse riding plenty of times, and if your horse is properly trained he won't let you fall of even if you suck. And who ever heard of an army falling of their horse in a fantasy setting.
-I don't know what you think you know about horses, but There isn't a horse alive that can gallop very long with a guy on it's back. Galloping are only used by cavalry to charge the enemy (it's a scare tactique.). People traveling on horse back let their horses walk for pretty much the whole way (except in movies). A walking horse will have time to avoid you if you fall and you won't get trampled.
- I guess that you fell off a horse when you were young, and it obviously left some indelebile mark on your subconscious. you dont want us to be able to put our army on horseback. Please explain why instead of just insisting on giving us weird and unjustified objection.
------------- Bartimeus, your very best friend.
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 21:25
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You have fallen off your horse and died of dysentery. Thank you for playing Illyriad Trail.
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Posted By: some random guy
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 21:28
KarL Aegis wrote:
let me tell you, falling off a horse hurts. Alot. Then getting trampled by a thousand other horse. You gonna be:
A) hurt
B) dead
or C) not fit for combat |
don't both A) and B) fall under C)? also, there is still the problem of what to do with the horses when you reach the battlefield. do they get slaughtered as meat? do they get slaughtered by the enemy? do they stampede randomly, creating chaos and havoc wherever they go? "cry havoc, and let slip the horses of war!"
------------- Soon, very soon, my name will become synonymous with chicken alfredo.... mmm.... chicken alfredo....
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Posted By: bartimeus
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 21:31
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It has allready been explain previously that the horse would be left in the background and would return to the winning army (so basicaly, if you lose, you give your horses to your enemy..., if you win you go home with your horses the same way you came).
Horses dont influence the outcome of battle as non cav units dismount before engaging the enemy.
------------- Bartimeus, your very best friend.
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Posted By: HonoredMule
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 21:33
Horses used for transport wait in a camp just outside the battle, waiting to be reclaimed by the victor. Real armies are followed by all manner of retinue (farriers, fletchers, whores, cooks, merchants, etc) who simply follow the camp and stay nearby but away from the fighting.
Medieval warfare was very much a business operation and certain things just weren't done (like attacking supply lines) because it really only hurt everyone equally, and took the profit out of war.
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Posted By: some random guy
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 21:38
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this idea has passed my "extremely critical/negative reinforcement test" thank you for your time and effort.
all that I have to say is, keep up the good work! 
------------- Soon, very soon, my name will become synonymous with chicken alfredo.... mmm.... chicken alfredo....
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Posted By: KarL Aegis
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2010 at 02:11
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The problems with horses could be solved by adding in saddles to the mix, but it could make them too expensive. Just add a few points to their move speed because they have less chance of actually dying with some form of aid in riding. Safer travel could translate to faster travel...
Or they can march at normal foot soldier speed so they dont run anyone over, rather than a light trot for getting somewhere (forced march anyone?)
Just a thought
------------- I am not amused.
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