racial characteristics
Printed From: Illyriad
Category: Miscellaneous
Forum Name: The Caravanserai
Forum Description: A place to just chat about whatever takes your fancy, whether it's about Illyriad or not.
URL: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=3596
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 03:03
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: racial characteristics
Posted By: Dew
Subject: racial characteristics
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 10:50
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Where do our concept of racial traits come from. why for instance are dwarfs antimagic beer guzzlers. Why are elves thought of as blond magic loving tree hugers. And why are orcs war bent, cannibalistic and uneducated. i was wondering if our entire concept of racial traits comes from solely(or almost exclusively) from Tolkien. and in your opinion is this stereotyping a good thing?
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Replies:
Posted By: Diomedes
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 11:53
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Such concepts are surely steeped in part in the ancient annals of western civilisation, where myths and fantasies were created to explain away their perceptions of good and evil, and the workings of the natural world inhabited by creatures created in the mind of tribal peoples. These concepts were then perpetuated in medieval times when religion continued to be steeped in the fables and legends of olden times. Personally, I enjoy the fantasy world of beautiful and gentle elves, war-bent orcs, and all the rest - with the proviso that it is only fantasy, and doesn't spill over into rl. Try as we might, we will always find it nigh impossible to avoid stereotypes, for it helps us to make some sort of order out of the chaos of life. ------------- "Walk in the way of the good, for the righteous will dwell in the land" |
Posted By: Dew
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 14:38
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i find it odd that with the myriad of mythological sources available to western civilization our community seems to have a basic agreed upon persona for each racial class. if we choose the brothers Grim we see that there was little distinction between dwarves and elves, however dwarves were very distinct creatures in Norse mythology such as that from Snorri Sturluson who's poetry formed the basis for many of the germanic middle high German poetry such as the nibelungenlied. and can be seen fairly intact through Richard Wagner's Ring cycles written between 1842 and 1874. these mythological examples have little in common with the English Arthurian legends which involve more fey and druid like creatures. and of course none of these share the tong and cheek expressions of Shakespeare's depictions. yet it seems that the J.R.R. Tolkien Lord of the Rings characterization is almost unanimous in fantasy circles even over other contemporary authors such as C.S. Lewis. my basic question is why has the fantasy community latched on to Tolkien mythology and is this a good thing.
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Posted By: Quackers
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 19:15
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This should be a short good read for you; http://www.illyriad.co.uk/blog/index.php/2011/10/culture-continuity-and-variety/" rel="nofollow - http://www.illyriad.co.uk/blog/index.php/2011/10/culture-continuity-and-variety/ |
Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 27 May 2012 at 19:49
| i dont know much of tolkiens stuff, i place all mine after the Warhammer universe |
Posted By: bansisdead
Date Posted: 28 May 2012 at 13:15
| Im a tree hugging, beer guzzling, vegetarian ork... |
Posted By: Dew
Date Posted: 28 May 2012 at 23:35
see that's the kind of diversity i am looking for in my cannon fodder... er friends
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bansisdead wrote:Posted By: Gilthoniel
Date Posted: 29 May 2012 at 13:02
I don't think that the fantasy community has latched onto "Tolkien mythology" and certainly the Illyriad community has not. Whilst the main playing character's in this game bare similarlity the dwarf;orc;elf;human variations common to many games;books and videos Illyriad culture contains a whole host of diverse beings and species within its own factions. Moreover you will see that origins of the four "player" species are very difefrent to those of Tolkien or for that matter Warhammer and others. There are some alliances in this game and quite a few players who have utilised Tolkien's work and influence out of choice. I am one of them as is the alliance to which I currently belong. I do not see that Tolkien's work lend itself to racial stereotyping and I refer you to this in support of my view http://www.uclan.ac.uk/information/services/ldu/research/Tolkien.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.uclan.ac.uk/information/services/ldu/research/Tolkien.php In her paper Zarkaya Anwar comes to the conclusion that "For Tolkien, on a personal level at least, a perfect world would be one in which all are equal, regardless of Race. Aragorn’s rule (Kocher 1972, 128-129), tells us this, if nothing else." |
Posted By: bansisdead
Date Posted: 30 May 2012 at 10:25
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My own interpretation of Tolkien is that it is very much based on white chritianity. There is a god, lluvator, who is the creator, he has a host of angels called ainur (forgive my spelling) who aid him in creating middle earth, some of these ainur (the Valar) go to middle earth and create life (the children of lluvator humans and elves. Dwarves were adopted kids created by one of the valar and given life by lluvator)) and guide it, one of these Valar named Melkor thinks he should rule this domain, he is a bit bad, corrupts the Valars work, spreads hatred, creates orks and gobos, corrupts maiar (lesser ainur) into balrogs and other evil spirits, hires sauron blah blah. Minus the sauron, orks and balrogs it sound very much like some of the stories in the bible. Tolkiens ideas seem to be based on his own devout religious ideas, I believe. I would even go as far as to say his concepts are racist, as all the goodies are white, whilst he himself describes the baddie humans as swarthy (of dark complexion) and then theres the women...I think tolkiens ideas are a reflexion of societies own ingnorance. Tolkien lovers, pls dont be offended as this is only my opinion, based on his works. |
Posted By: Gemley
Date Posted: 30 May 2012 at 21:18
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Just three words, Tolkien is Amazing. ------------- �I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend� - J.R.R. Tolkien |
Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 30 May 2012 at 21:48
| i say for anyone wanting to do RP or having a RP alliance, why not read and try Illy Lore, it exists and is quite well written as far as what happened before Illy servers started, now its we who shape it. |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 30 May 2012 at 21:58
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@bansisdead: We shouldn't forget, that Tolkien grew up over 100 years ago... it isn't surprising he took up some of the ideas of that time... But if I remember correctly, those darkskinned foreigners from Harad and Khand were described as deluded by Sauron (the same way as was Saruman), and turned back to peaceful during Aragorns reign.
About the colours: I think the colour of skin actually is caused by the stereotype south = darkskinned, and with Mordor being located in south east, it would have been hard to avoid this setup... |
Posted By: Hora
Date Posted: 30 May 2012 at 22:02
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@Rorgash: I'm sure we all might more and more drop into those lines of Illy lore, as Factions will be orientated on it's content. Many alliances already have tried succesfully to explain their mixed races alliances along those ideas, one-race-only alliances might have the easier job there
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Posted By: Rorgash
Date Posted: 30 May 2012 at 22:05
| Its what makes us the best :D The http://elgea.illyriad.co.uk/#/Alliance/Alliance/406" rel="nofollow - Black Skulle Horde!!! |
Posted By: lokifeyson
Date Posted: 31 May 2012 at 12:02
your mom.... seriously  and only if you can learn it and grow better from it? -------------  |
Posted By: Dew
Date Posted: 31 May 2012 at 20:10
i had taken some time to consider your post because i was looking forward to reviewing the linked article. i must admit i was a little disappointed by the article. i am not really talking about the mythological origins of species. nor am i trying to link in-game racial types to types of people be they "good" or "evil". i am particularly talking about how we the players en-mass personify the various races. which even you effectively agree is the same, "Whilst the main playing character's in this game bare similarity the dwarf;orc;elf;human variations common to many games;books and videos..." the second part of your statement deals with Illy Culture which is frankly off topic unless you can relate it to the global community. |
Posted By: Gilthoniel
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2012 at 13:28
| Ok. Dew. Why don't you give us your view first. Then maybe we will respond. |
Posted By: Myr
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2012 at 02:34
| Thinking that all elf males in Illy look like Orlando Bloom in LOTR keeps me in my happy place. |
Posted By: Darkwords
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2012 at 11:09
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Personnaly I take my fantasy race inspiration from old myths and legends, for example I view elves as being much like the phae from celtic stories. However, these things clearly influenced Tolkiens work aswell so much of the similarities are the same, its just the 'nice' races and 'bad' races were exagerated by tolkien. For example in his myths the nice 'phae' or 'elves' do not steal human babies and replace them with their own. Personally I prefer the old myths as in them all 'cultures' have their own possitives and negatives. |