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Petition for Dev intervention into Multiaccounting

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Tensmoor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tensmoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 08:39
Originally posted by Snagglepuss Snagglepuss wrote:

There has to be a way to enforce it, why not shoot Tens  a few cans of Tuna, in payment for rooting out the offenders? I understand keeping the game alive, but is it really the multis buying the prestige?

No offense to all of you who have posted, but the devs have kept the game going through a ton of BS through the years and I for one appreciate the fact I am still playing. That being said, I have always been of the opinion that its clearly cheating. So I go with the consensus, sort of...Enforce it, period. Please don't legalize it


You think i'd work for food? Shocked

Since this thread got started I've been mulling over the problem and the more I think about it the bigger it seems to get. I'm constantly reminded about an old adage:

'Any security system designed by man can be broken by man'

That in effect sums up the problem in that no matter what sort of system the devs come up with there will be those who take it as a challenge to find ways around it. To counteract that would need a full time staff doing nothing but checking for attempts at breaching the system.

Does that mean I think the problem is unsolvable or should just be ignored? No to both, there has to be a middle ground somewhere but finding that will be in my opinion a long and hard road.

One thing that concerns me is that there are players who may decide to take advantage of the situation by accusing others of being multi-accounters just to settle old scores or gain an advantage. When folks get accused of something like that it can make them decide to leave even if they are innocent.

As for the devs not caring - I just plain disagree with that. In all my dealings with any of the devs i've always found a passion for Illy that I've seldom seen anywhere else when it comes to peoples relationship with their work.

Anyway, that is my opinion on it.

Tens

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eowan the short View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 11:30
Tbh, even if they did somehow solve it enough to make it so no one multiaccounted, there'd still be suspicions. 

And, yeah, 'x is a multiaccounter' is pretty much equivalent to 'I don't like x'.

The solution is probably to just relax the rules. The problem with an unenforceable rule is that it punishes good behaviour- when you follow the rules, you find yourself at a disadvantage compared to those who buy a VPN subscription and have an account in every country on earth. 
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 19:00
My concern of multi-accts. is less to do with traditional 'game mechanics' and more to do with spys/agents provocateurs/trolls.  It is very easy to create a 5 city acct., join a military alliance, get in on the spreadsheet and wreak havoc.  Join a traditional alliance, maybe even a training alliance, convince someone you are trust worthy, get sitting rights and wreak havoc then abandon.  Have an acct. in every alliance in Illyriad...  A person can do this without buying any prestige at all. There are many problems with allowing this to continue beyond gold/resource, troop production, prestige buying. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thirion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 19:26
Originally posted by Tensmoor Tensmoor wrote:


'Any security system designed by man can be broken by man'

That in effect sums up the problem in that no matter what sort of system the devs come up with there will be those who take it as a challenge to find ways around it. To counteract that would need a full time staff doing nothing but checking for attempts at breaching the system.

While i do agree with the statement that its impossible to design a security system that cannot be broken i disagree with your conclusion. Security measures help. They do not completely fix the problem but they make it harder and more risky - thats the point.

Letting an expensive bike stand outside without a lock is a lot worse then buying a good lock and using it. The bike is not secure from getting stolen - but it is less likely.

Players knowing that the devs ban multi-accounters and follow up/act on petitions would probably solve most of the issues. Instead the opposite seems to be the case.

Originally posted by Tensmoor Tensmoor wrote:

As for the devs not caring - I just plain disagree with that. In all my dealings with any of the devs i've always found a passion for Illy that I've seldom seen anywhere else when it comes to peoples relationship with their work.
I agree with the passion for the game and that the devs have been dealing well with most of the easier issues. I found some major bugs that they fixed really fast and communicated really well.

On important issues were it is often "either or" and making a decision would be important i was quite disappointed by the devs reaction. They seem to ignore it and stay out of it instead of a "Yes we know the problem exists and we have the following opinion". Which in my opinion would help a lot. Instead it seems to me that they are trying to make both sides happy - which in the long run makes the problem even worse.

As an example: As far as i know there was strong evidence that a player was multi-accounting on a huge scale (a sitter of an account got a message with 8+ accounts with the same password by accident). A petition was created 2-3 years ago but as far as i know nothing happened on the devs side and the player was able to continue multi-accounting until now (and quite likely still is).

And this example is a huge problem. It would have been easy for the devs to check it and post a response/statement. Instead apparently they ignored it.
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eowan the short View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 09:05
Originally posted by Sun Tzu Sun Tzu wrote:

My concern of multi-accts. is less to do with traditional 'game mechanics' and more to do with spys/agents provocateurs/trolls.  It is very easy to create a 5 city acct., join a military alliance, get in on the spreadsheet and wreak havoc.  Join a traditional alliance, maybe even a training alliance, convince someone you are trust worthy, get sitting rights and wreak havoc then abandon.  Have an acct. in every alliance in Illyriad...  A person can do this without buying any prestige at all. There are many problems with allowing this to continue beyond gold/resource, troop production, prestige buying. 

I think infiltrator is a perfectly valid style of play. Just because there isn't an in game mechanic backing something, that doesn't mean it's a problem. The best and most interesting parts of illy come from non-mechanical play. 
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tensmoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 10:41
To a certain degree I have to agree with Eowan on this - it is not against the rules (as I understand them) to infiltrate other alliances. The potential dangers of sitters is something that is warned about quite strongly I think.

Infiltration and 'sitter abuse' are both things that I personally feel are 'dirty' so not things that I would contemplate doing but that is my play style and they are not breaches of the rules. Yes, creating multiple accounts simultaneously to infiltrate alliances is a breach and should be punished but if somebody simply uses their alt to do it then no rule is broken.

One of the unique points about Illy is in my opinion the variety of ways it can be played and I think the devs don't get anywhere near the praise they deserve for having come up with the design in the first place. They have made a game that has relatively few rules yet has been going for over 10 years. Pretty damn amazing if you ask me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bzn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 15:39
I dont think the purpose of that guys post was to debate the legitimacy or morality of the infiltration tactic, but rather display how incredibly easy it is to do and how much widespread harm a single player can cause when the rules arent being enforced
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote eowan the short Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 16:10
But can they be enforced? The very enforceability of multi rules is questionable.

In addition to this- infiltration can be done via a legitimate alt very easily. In fact, Thunderchild was an alt I had specifically for infiltration purposes. I don't believe that multiaccounting for infiltration is more harmful than, for example, multiaccounting for pvp or any other use. The end result is the same- an x account advantage over the law abiding player.

And that, in my opinion, is the problem with multiaccounting. It's not what is done with the accounts- a legal account has the exact same abilities as an illegal one- it's the fact that an unenforceable rule results in the players who follow the rules being at a disadvantage. 
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote bzn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 16:23
i dont believe its unenforceable, or at least it is a lot more enforceable than what is being done now (nothing), the amount of identifying data about users that website operators can gain is more than enough to catch a large amount of them, i believe. there are steps to mitigate identification from the user side, but there is also a lot that the operators can do to counter those. i doubt most people multi'ing are doing anything super sophisticated so simple fingerprinting tactics can likely catch most of them.

its not just about catching people, but also deterring the act. right now the devs have shown there are 0 consequences to breaking the rules of the game, so people feel safe risking their big accounts. if real effort was made at a purge and big accounts faced the consequences, it would deter future rule breaking.

to me it isnt that they arent putting in enough effort, its that they arent putting in any effort whatsoever. this points to either a lack of care or financial incentive, both of which i believe most players will view negatively.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 18:05
Took the words out of my typing fingers. 

What about tournaments, which seem to be the new thing here.  More than half of the members of an alliance, including 'tourney alliances', don't even participate.  Why not put a newb one town acct. in Yarr! and if someone mentions in AC sending some troops to this square or lets stack up on this... 

Coming from a former spy, it is a totally viable alternate game mechanic (and quite fun), WHEN PLAYED WITHIN THE RULES OF ILLYRIAD.  

It is already clear from style of play, personal admissions over the years and their vehement defense of legalizing multi-accounting on this post, who one of these POS players is who has the multi-accounts.  No respect for you ever, and already lost respect for the developers who can't enforce the 'unenforceable' rules in their own game, nor give an acknowledgement here that this may be a problem. 
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