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Peace Offer Rejected

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    Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 10:50
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

At the same time I recognize that this topic has wandered rather far from that of the original post, so perhaps if further discussion is desired someone should start a new thread.

I opened another thread on the topic...  please put everything related to exodus from hubs there, to not further derail the topic

=> means better organized forum and less work for GM Luna Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 00:39
Originally posted by Nokigon Nokigon wrote:

This seems like a fairly in-depth conversation on the basis of what is rumour, hearsay and, to the best of my knowledge, untrue.

I think it's valid to have a discussion about a hypothetical policy, regardless of whether it's being used actively in the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 00:26
Who are you? A person.  This is a forum, which is a place for the exchange of ideas.  Perhaps a majority (or even a minority, or even one person) may not agree with one's opinion, but that should not prevent you from expressing it.

What you may be saying is "I would not be willing to take active steps to impose this opinion on other people"; that stance I understand and agree with.  There are very few ideas I would be willing to fight (even with bits and bytes of data, which is what our armies in this game are) in order to support.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elmindra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 00:08
I have seen a certain alliance leadership specifically offer a way out of the war, but required leaving their territory as a price.  While I don't personally agree with such behaviour, who am I to argue with their poilicy as long as they have the power to enforce it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 00:05
Brand, I guess what I'm saying is that people going nuts over city location is just that -- nuts.  It's possible to be successful in a variety of locations and threatening to siege people who just don't want to participate in a war anymore (perhaps because they have doubts about their alliance leadership) does not seem like a healthy policy.  Certainly it would be very easy to use it as an excuse -- it is so easy to fool ourselves into believing that what is most convenient is the only possible way.

Hopefully those who seek to lead alliances would have the humility to consider other possibilities rather than engage in this sort of knee-jerk reaction.

Noki, in my discussion of this matter I hope I do not imply that I believe this is actually happening.  Rather, I am talking about why I think it would be unwise and unnecessary for the leadership of an alliance to take this path.

At the same time I recognize that this topic has wandered rather far from that of the original post, so perhaps if further discussion is desired someone should start a new thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nokigon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2014 at 23:22
This seems like a fairly in-depth conversation on the basis of what is rumour, hearsay and, to the best of my knowledge, untrue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2014 at 22:37
Darkwords, I don't know any more about the situation than what you've just stated.

Rill, a leader almost always put the good of the team over the good of individual members. That's the very definition of being on a team. I didn't say that former members were responsible for anyone getting sieged. I said they could be blocking key exodus moves. Why are the departing players in the middle of a stronghold? Presumably they were placed there as part of the team, to be tightly integrated with their comrades. Being in the alliance core is a privilege extended by your alliance because you are a trusted member. The favorable placement doesn't strike me as some kind of permanent individual right. Quit the team, leave our fortress, sounds like a reasonable demand to me. It's better if that policy is stated up front, but war catches people by surprise sometimes.

City placement is like 40% of defense in this game. Alliance is another 40%. Why do alliances jealously hoard their abandoned cities? Why do they form cores in the first place? Why is map crowding such a polarizing issue? Why do alliances siege members at 45-60 days inactivity, or sometimes even raze at key locations to prevent capture or open up squares for exodus-in of current players? It's because map placement is so key. I wouldn't hesitate to make that demand in other games, and if it seems overly harsh, I think that's because people are underestimating the importance of good placement and overestimating the damage caused by exodus. I've seen enough placement disputes in eCrow to understand that placement is critical in ordinary circumstances, let alone when people are trying to destroy your cities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2014 at 20:44
Brand, I still think your example is one of the alliance leadership putting its interests over the interests of members.  Yes, ex-members cities' might be in a place that's inconvenient for their former alliance mates.  But the idea that the existence of a neutral city is responsible for one's own city being sieged is a bit far-fetched.  Perhaps retreating people won't get the exact plum spot they want -- so that's a reason people should be forced to Exo?  THAT is what seems petty to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darkwords Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2014 at 20:15
I never said it was the same thing BM, but then from what I have heard the ultimatum is you exo or we kill you.  Something that I think is a pretty crazy thing to apply to your own members/ex-members, its the kind of thing I reserve for my enemies.

Anyway it does not really matter does it, as I said it is a rumour, or do you know more about this than I perhaps?
<Deranzin> I'd agree with darkone on that

[21:59]<ropadope> you know I am perverted

<Bartleby> dark is upsetting some peeps
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2014 at 20:03
Darkwords, forcing someone to move their cities isn't the same thing as killing an account. It isn't even close. I'm not saying that kind of policy is justified, but I've exodused many cities. It takes a while to rebuild again, but the process is much faster with friendly players and $5 of prestige.

I would also point out that alliance strongholds tend to be densely packed, and a departing player could block exodus into the alliance stronghold for people trying to retreat. Does that justify making them move away? I don't know. On one hand, it seems like a brutal penalty for desertion. On the other hand, if I were fighting to keep my cities alive, I would look very unfavorably on a deserter blocking my move to the alliance HQ, when it might be my only chance to save the city. There's a big difference between simply leaving, and actively screwing over your former comrades.

If the deserter's cities weren't in the alliance HQ... that would be unbelievably petty by the standards of the Illyriad community.
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