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No-Claim Land Claims

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Jejune View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 11:02
Yesterday, the TRIVIUM alliance went live with an alliance land claim in the Broken Lands. While alliance land claims are not new, this current initiative is involving a larger number of alliances, all of which are experimenting with new and different claim models and policies. I've said all along that the idea is an evolving one, and the more participation in the evolution of the model, the better the end result will be.

TVM's claim model is unique in that it enforces two "zones" -- the inner "Zone 1" is a traditional alliance claim that, with noted exceptions, puts a freeze on the influx of new, non-aligned cities. However, "Zone 2" is what TVM calls a "claim-free zone." This outer ring remains open to non-aligned accounts for settlement, but discourages other alliances from making claims within the zone:

"Any land claim attempted within the borders of this exclusionary zone will be considered null and void. Any land claim enforcement attempted within the borders of this exclusionary zone will be countered by the full force of TRIVIUM."

I suggest that TVM has put into play a potentially interesting alternative to the traditional claim. It allows alliances who are ideologically opposed to land claims because of their restrictions on allowing free, non-aligned settlements to enforce a region around their clusters that would discourage rival claims.

There are pros and cons to this claim model:

Pros:
  • It gives land claim opponents an official mechanism for curtailing player-restrictive claims from being established around or near their PACs (Prominent Alliance Clusters).
  • It allows non-aligned players to settle in areas near a PAC, potentially opening up future recruitment opportunities.
  • It gives the claiming alliance a softer, more iterative step toward expanding a claim in the future.
Cons:
  • The "no-claim" land claim allows rival alliances to freely position hostile cities near or in a PAC.
  • There is little to no recourse in dealing with the establishment of a PAC with no official claim in a "no-claim" zone.
  • As with claims of all types, its veracity is only as strong as the alliance's ability and willingness to enforce it.
I would encourage BL alliances to consider this new model. Assuming that a no-claim alliance land claim has foundation (i.e. not claiming the entire BL or wide swaths of lands with no alliance presence as no-claim) and is sufficiently reasonable, I will be more than happy to include the demarcation on the map. 

In the event that a no-claim land claim (or traditional one for that matter) is broached by a competing claim, I plan to demarcate these disputed areas on the map as well when and as needed.

If you have additional questions about how to implement the no-claim land claim, please don't ask me here -- feel free to get in contact with me via IGM. I'm sure Bonfyr Verboo would be happy to help as well.

Thanks!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 17:00
While I still disagree with the basic premise upon which this has been done, I do appreciate that TVM is making some sort of effort to find a mechanism by which players can have, if not total freedom, at least partial freedom to settle where they wish.  The mechanism of enforcement is still limited to large players enforcing the claim themselves and thus a technique largely restricted to alliances large enough to do so.  I'm wondering if it might be better to have a procedure and set of criteria in place by which an alliance can lay claim to some part of Illy, and an agreement amongst all for the enforcement of that agreement, rather than individual alliances making their own rules, regulations and enforcement policies.  But TVM at least appears cognizant of the problems and that's a step in the right direction.

Kudo's to TVM

AJ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote twilights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 17:18
as an indivdual account, i totally support this new strategy and urge all that made land claims to adopt this feature...with new knowlegde and insight being discovered in the gaame itself there is no need for war drums and this new type of claim should be respected and no need for those to continue planning their gang bang...congrats tvm!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2015 at 16:34
I just read the alliance page of the head alliance in illyriad (Dark Shade)which reads they will honor no land claims. Which brings to mind the question, Is a land claim only as good as what you can back militarily? Are those who are in a confed ready to fight for your land claim as well?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jejune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2015 at 16:58
Originally posted by Thorn Thorn wrote:

I just read the alliance page of the head alliance in illyriad (Dark Shade)which reads they will honor no land claims. Which brings to mind the question, Is a land claim only as good as what you can back militarily? Are those who are in a confed ready to fight for your land claim as well?

I cannot answer your second question, but for the first: yes. There is no official claiming system. The only thing that governs the legitimacy of a claim is an alliance's ability and willingness to defend it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote abstractdream Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2015 at 17:29
I guess the next question is will an alliance proclaiming to be against claims simply send cities to test it and see what happens or will they use their proclamation as an excuse to attack players they already wish they could attack for no other reason than their own distaste?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Veneke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 00:42
I think one of the major issues that everyone should consider with the current land claims is that they're currently in a very undeveloped and chaotic stage. There is no set formula for land claims, nor any guiding principles as to how they should be enforced or what is considered 'reasonable' in their use.

I suspect that we're going to see a homogenization of the land claims process as approaches are tried, found wanting, and new approaches are considered. That's not going to happen overnight though, and until time dictates best practice a variety of approaches suited to individual needs is going to dominate BL land claims.

One long-term development of land claims that I consider likely is that land claims in the BL will cease to matter except for new or growing alliances who are staking out their initial core. Currently all BL alliances are new or growing, but that won't always be true, and the incentive for a land claim in an already established alliance that is really not taking in a great deal of new players and has already firmly settled their core is unlikely to be strong. I could be totally wrong on that, but - and this is the crucial point - nobody knows how they'll develop or what is the most beneficial tweak to the core concept of a land claim.

It's possible that a land claim might be tweaked in such a way as to make it fundamentally objectionable, as older land claims were when they obliged players to remove their existing cities from a particular area. None of the current land claims are this objectionable, and I hope that no future land claim attempts anything of the sort.

TVM's no-claim land claim is an interesting solution to the same problem that obliges alliances concerned with their positioning to automatically refuse permission to settle within 10 squares of any of their towns. You can't allow potential enemies to set up shop right on your doorstep.

The biggest difficulty with the no-claim land claim is really that it hinders new alliances making a land claim. I'm strongly of the opinion that land claims should come to dominate BL and be the gold standard for alliances throughout the continent. This impedes that sort of widespread development.

Is this the right balance between allowing widespread land claims and permitting alliances to guard their core zones with buffers? I don't believe that it is, but until we find the right mix of permissiveness and ensuring the security of our alliance mates (present and future) this sort of experimentation with land claims should be encouraged.
"May have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." - Captain Malcolm Reynolds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Kindly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 16:16
Originally posted by abstractdream abstractdream wrote:

I guess the next question is will an alliance proclaiming to be against claims simply send cities to test it and see what happens or will they use their proclamation as an excuse to attack players they already wish they could attack for no other reason than their own distaste?


I guess it differs for each claim.

BB seems to have made a claim for their own. T-SC seems to have done the same. As far as I can tell I have seen no aggressive stances towards existing neighbours.

The situation with the SIN claim is a little different. If one takes the effort of actually reading the claim, one sees that it is actually a claim on behalf of three alliances in a relatively small area, namely Fam, HALO and SIN, who (and I bothered to check this) are in a confed, probably (I assume) to settle and not be bothered by the 10 sq. Can't blame them for not wanting new settlers to mess that up. I also haven't seen anything about existing 3rd parties having to move out. I did spot a Crow there.

But hey, why should one actually read a claim and check the local situation? Crying Foul is so much easier if one can do so unfounded. Wink

We've seen mine possession and sov used as a 'valid' reason to start a war in the past. So I guess the 'validity' bar can still be put lower. We'll see Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjc2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 18:12
honestly i dont even know why people are trying to come up with a "valid" reason to start a war.  in my opinion this is a game, if you want to start a war just say "hey, i want to declare war with you because i think it will be fun."  that is pretty much the most "valid" reason i can come up with.  granted that didnt work too well in the long run with NC but they did have some fun while it lasted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 19:01
If the other party in the conflict is also made up of people who would enjoy having a war, then the "I declare war with you because I think it will be fun" strategy could work out reasonably well, assuming that both sides are also willing to stop when one or the other ceases to have fun.
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