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Rill View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 22:17
Originally posted by Koth Koth wrote:

Originally posted by (EOM) Harry (EOM) Harry wrote:

Koth, all i can say there mate is:

how do you know that this alliance is smaller?
and why are you interested in what we are threatening?

Mate, you gave the game away! Sorry bud. We were keeping names out of here. but you had to bring it all in!

Why keep names out of it?  Whether or not I might give anything away or not was never a concern.  Why can't you just, in plain and unambiguous terms, tell me exactly what it is nCrow is threatening to do if they don't get their way?

See my post above.  And pardon me if I do not give you a specific outline of our tactics and strategy.  I will say that step one is ... we aren't going to describe our intended tactics and strategy on the forum.
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abstractdream View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 22:18
Originally posted by Kumomoto Kumomoto wrote:

Kumo pulls out his lawn chair, oils it because it so darn rusty from misuse, sets it up and grabs the requisite popcorn and six pack...  God it's nice when we aren't part of it for once!!!


LOL

btw, who didn't know your target was TLR...umm, I mean TVM
Bonfyr Verboo
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 01:06
Originally posted by Le Roux Le Roux wrote:

Originally posted by roughneck roughneck wrote:

...
So who are the bullies, now? The alliance in question or the one that's trying to bully them into "playing fair"? Confused
 
Perhaps you need to let us understand what your definition of bully is? Easy to be a troll and hide behind an alias and simply be a contrarian for the sake of contrariness   ( was there not a classic Monty Python skit on the subject ? )
 
In any event ..
 
If a first party exerts influence over an unwilling second party...
 
.. and a third party upon hearing of this, acts to end that influence ...
 
... certainly if there is adequate outrage over the third party's actions, they too will feel the wrath of the broader community ...  if the broader community sees the action as no issue ...  then nothing else happens...
 
Kind of a self correcting system, all are free to act as they wish,  if something bothers someone else, they are free to step in to alter it, with the understanding that they too must live with the consequences ...  kind of like life . . . 
 
It could very well be all of this is now moot, and nothing will ever come of any of it.  Other than of course providnig fodder for yet another Illy forum troll.

Excepting that we don't know details.  Who is 1 and 2?  Obviously the outrage is going to be directed towards those Harry feels is distasteful in nature, otherwise he'd not post.

Frankly, I would have preferred nCrow not post this, and just act.  It's a self-correcting system, if the other Crows didn't care for it, the internal system (if there is one) would have redirected nCrow's tactics and antics in regards to this.

Myself?  I feel that nCrow will do what it beleives best for Ursor.  Dark Empire will do what it believes best for the Western Regions...

Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem delendam esse...Fill in Carthaginem for whomever has pissed me off tonight.  :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 01:22
Originally posted by Darkwords Darkwords wrote:

How many confeds do you expect us to take on, The Crows would end up housing half of illy.

Who says that's a bad thing? 

Originally posted by Sisren Sisren wrote:

Who is 1 and 2?

Well 2 is obvious the newbie and 1 is, well, just look at what alliance Koth is in...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 01:58
Now that I've taken one side, I think I'll argue for the other. I'm really a contrarian at heart. So I shall challenge nCrow's stance on this issue.

Believe it or not, Illyriad arguments between "warmongerers" and "white knights" (in quotes because I do not use these phrases myself) all come down to ownership; more specifically, they revolve around how ownership is determined.

The general consensus among the community (whether the community recognizes it or not) is that ownership is first-come, first serve. If no one else owns it, then once you build it, or you settle it, or you occupy it, or you sov it, no one has the right to take it from you. This is a very natural philosophy, but also one that many of the "warmongers," as they are often called, feel has created stagnation in Illyriad.

You see, most players have taken it for granted that the smaller, weaker players deserved their locations in Ursor, and the offending alliance was in the wrong for wanting to take the land as their own. But why is this? These smaller players have done very little to earn those spots, other than finding and settling their first. Is this rather arbitrary factor really how we are going to decide who deserves what? Timing is the be all, end all of rightful ownership in Illy? Seems mighty impractical to me.

The unnamed alliance has spend months, probably years combined building up the resources and forces that would allow them to exert an influence in Illyriad. So why, nCrow, have you decided to use YOUR hard-earned influence and power to prevent them from taking this land away from new players who (1) have put in precious little time and effort relative to the other alliance in order to earn there right to the land, and (2) if they are small like you claim, have very little to lose from Exodus other than maybe some storehouse/warehouse levels and perhaps a few other de-levels.

I ask you this, nCrow/EOMHarry: What have these small players done to earn their land and your support of this ownership, and what has the unnamed alliance, who has put in far more time and effort into building their Illyriad presence at this point, done that they do NOT deserve it more that the new players?

Imagine what an interesting metagame could have developed if these smaller players took matters into their own hands, instead of you intervening. They could have banded together, (perhaps under your guidance and support!), grown strong, formed their own alliance, and plotted in secret  to one day take back their rightful lands, all by their own strength! I guarantee if the unnamed alliance were eventually served revenge at the hands of their former prey, they would not complain about it at all; quite the contrary, they'd think it mighty entertaining I reckon.

Oh well, instead these newbies get to ride on the back of your hard work and learn nothing about self-defense or diplomacy; instead of a potentially interesting community story of small players growing and taking down the big bads who beat them before, we get another thread full of insults and whining.

I realize I don't know the full situation. That being said, I'll conclude by revising a well-known saying: "Fight for a man, he'll survive for one battle; teach a man to fight, and he just might win the war."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 02:24
Hadus,

I have really appreciated your level headed posts and fair perspective. Thank you for all you contribute to this post and the forum in general.

But regarding your question at Harry, I would say that effort and work would not equal ownership either. If I cut down a tree from your backyard (without your permission) and made a pencil out of it, do I own the pencil? I would say the work I invested is null when it comes to what others all ready own (unless there is an agreement).

I do think this is a very interesting question (and key to a number of different aspects of illy) and look forward to hearing what others say, but I feel the answer is not effort/work.

~Vanerin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 02:45
Originally posted by Vanerin Vanerin wrote:

Hadus,

I have really appreciated your level headed posts and fair perspective. Thank you for all you contribute to this post and the forum in general.

But regarding your question at Harry, I would say that effort and work would not equal ownership either. If I cut down a tree from your backyard (without your permission) and made a pencil out of it, do I own the pencil? I would say the work I invested is null when it comes to what others all ready own (unless there is an agreement).

I do think this is a very interesting question (and key to a number of different aspects of illy) and look forward to hearing what others say, but I feel the answer is not effort/work.

~Vanerin


Thank you for the compliment Van. While I'm unable to offer you a worthy reply right now, let me just respond with this: how did I acquire the house and backyard? Did I pay for it with money earned from my time and effort, or did I stroll into town, see the land there, and decide to live there?


Edited by Hadus - 05 Feb 2013 at 02:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 03:01
hehe, exactly. I don't feel I know the answer to original ownership. Just pointing out that effort and work may not be it.

Part of the problem is that ownership is a very cultural thing. The methods range from ownership by claim, to not having ownership at all. Each of the methods have advantages and disadvantages. So I kinda doubt we will find a firm answer, but it could certainly be an interesting discussion.

~Vanerin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 03:08
^Agreed. I look forward to a reply from nCrow, and reading all the responses tomorrow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 03:30
This is not a post to respond to the declaration by nCrow. I do not begrudge an alliance using its power. No, really. LOL.

I am posting because there are a couple of fallacies in third party posts and I would like to bring just a bit of clarification.

This was not an alliance operation and the player challenged is not a newb. I don't know his specific "birth" date but it was in the later months of 2011.

I know none of those who have already made up their mind about us will believe anything I say but I wanted to get it out there.
Bonfyr Verboo
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