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Aurordan 
Postmaster
Player Council - Ambassador
Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 982
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 Topic: Military Unit stats questions
Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 06:59 |
 Olek wrote:
Chop off the end of the pikes with big swords? lol, I know this is a fantasy game, but really, come on. |
... That wasn't something I made up, it was a weapon that historically existed. Thanks for that definition I guess.
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Olek
Greenhorn
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 46
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Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 04:04 |
Chop off the end of the pikes with big swords? lol, I know this is a fantasy game, but really, come on. A bit of reading if your interested. (C&P) Description of
Pike
The weapons used during the Middle
Ages include the Pike. The description of the Pike which provides basic facts
and information about the weapon is as follows:
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Pike - This weapon consisted of a sharp
spike blade mounted on a wooden shaft, or pole - referred to as a
pikestaff
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This weapon had a wooden shaft, or
staff, between 10 and 14 feet (3 and 4 meters) long, mounted with a steel head
resembling a spear
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Used as a versatile weapon against
knights on horseback. The weapon was constantly developed and refined to include
metal rims over the shaft making it even more effective against cavalry starting
with knights on horseback . The pole, or staff, increased in length to become
more effective fighting weapon
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The weapon was used as a means to combat
enemies on horseback. The spear end could apply significant injury to a knight
in armor, or a knights horse. Horse armor was developed to counteract such
injuries but the sheer force applied from a long pole, or pike, was extremely
effective against horses. The Medieval horse, called a Destrier was the favored horses of knights in the Middle
Ages
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Pikemen were also armed with a dagger
and a sword to enable them to battle enemies who had been unhorsed. The pike was
far too unwieldy to use in close combat
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Type or group of weapons - Polearm - A
group of pole-mounted weapons. Were all variations of poles measuring between 4
and 14 feet long with different 'heads' - spikes, hammers, spears, axe
etc
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HonoredMule
Postmaster General
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1650
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Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 17:16 |
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In real life cavalry actually will not charge through a solid wall of people unless that wall breaks in fear before the charge. Trouble is, only the most experienced and courageous soldiers will hold steady to the last moment when horses pull up short.
Note this only applies to horses, not necessarily all cavalry-classed units (like elephants or Orcs mounted on wolves).
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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule
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Aurordan
Postmaster
Player Council - Ambassador
Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 982
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Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 08:19 |
Olek wrote:
Crossbow armed peasants could kill a knight who had trained all his life, which is why they were outlawed in many nations during the medieval period. |
Including apparently Illyriad, because only shady races like dwarves use them. Ironically the superior longbows are a dime a dozen apparently.
Olek wrote:
Don't make the mistake of thinking knights were the princess saving heroes of the age, they were the rich and Noble, usually the one's who would benefit from the wars. |
Cause they were good at it.
Olek wrote:
And don't write off the Spear or pike units of the period, the Swiss pikemen, the German Landsknechts, the Scotts, these are trained and drilled Pikemen, not spear armed rabble. |
Well in game it's up to your commander to determine just how well trained and drill your pikemen are. But there are measures you can take that even the best pikemen will be susceptible to (like using a giant sword to take the end off their pikes). Though now I believe we are drifting into an era later than this game is meant to recreate. It seems likely that during this time most of your soldiers are not going to be professionals.
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Olek
Greenhorn
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 46
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Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 07:01 |
Aurordan wrote:
Another thing to remember is that you're sending 1000 heavily armored men who have been trained for battle from a very young age and spend all their time fighting or preparing to fight against 1000 guys who are pretty decent with a polearm. They don't need to be mounted to be more than twice as effective. |
Crossbow armed peasants could kill a knight who had trained all his life, which is why they were outlawed in many nations during the medieval period. Don't make the mistake of thinking knights were the princess saving heroes of the age, they were the rich and Noble, usually the one's who would benefit from the wars. And don't write off the Spear or pike units of the period, the Swiss pikemen, the German Landsknechts, the Scotts, these are trained and drilled Pikemen, not spear armed rabble. And you are right Aurordan, many knights did end up fighting on foot, as they would be more effective against the Pike/spear than mounted, but then all they had to worry about were the longbows and crossbows.
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Olek
Greenhorn
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 46
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Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 06:43 |
Not a chance, you picture this as if your controlling the Cavalry while the spear units just stand there facing north, never heard of a Circular schiltrons? or a Rectilinear schiltrons, these pikemen where well drilled to manoever on the battlefield, they were all but immune to Cavalry, there is also a great difference between a spear unit and a Pike unit, and momentum will not help trying to charge through 5-6 ranks of layered pike points.Terrain gives an advantage to a commander who knows how to use it, so it is not the terrain, but the ability of the commander to deploy his forces effectively in various types of terrain.
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Aurordan
Postmaster
Player Council - Ambassador
Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 982
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Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 06:10 |
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Another thing to remember is that you're sending 1000 heavily armored men who have been trained for battle from a very young age and spend all their time fighting or preparing to fight against 1000 guys who are pretty decent with a polearm. They don't need to be mounted to be more than twice as effective.
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Silent/Steadfast
Postmaster
Joined: 03 Jun 2011
Location: Pacific County
Status: Offline
Points: 553
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Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 06:01 |
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Olek: the very idea of cavalry is to attack on plains, where flanking is a VERY viable strategy. Also, spear units tend to be unable to find strategic areas(hills) on plains. Sending cavalry charging up a hill to attack a well prepared division of pikemen IS suicide, sending the cavalry to attack suddenly on the flank of the same pikes on plains isn't. Terrain is the defining factor. Also, we have to remember that even when the spearmen are well situated, cavalry simply inflict damage through momentum.
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"Semantics are no protection from a 50 Megaton Thermonuclear Stormcrow."-Yggdrassil (June 21, 2011 6:48 PM)
"SCROLL ya donut!" Urgorr The Old (September 1, 2011 4:08 PM)
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Olek
Greenhorn
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 46
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Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 05:23 |
If I understand this correctly, if 1000 of my knights attack 1000 of my pikemen, we are looking at; 65000 attack for the knights Vs 29000 defense for the pikemen, open ground, both nub commanders. If this is the way it's calculated, then somebody needs to do a bit of reading, as sending Cav into pikemen is suicidal, I don't want to hear any stories about the Cavalry "Could" ride around to the flank, as "could" is every single engagement by this method.
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HonoredMule
Postmaster General
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1650
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Posted: 28 Oct 2011 at 04:38 |
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Keep in mind also that T2 units often provide better stats per unit of production time. Even with all other things being equal or slightly worse, it can be an important strategic factor.
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"Apparently, quoting me is a 'thing' now."
- HonoredMule
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Military Unit stats questions