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Daufer
Forum Warrior
Joined: 14 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 332 |
Topic: Military TweeksPosted: 30 Jan 2013 at 23:30 |
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A: Do you routinely keep a large force of overall less-effective troops on hand just in case an enemy places a siege camp in a location where it will be marginally more efficient to attack with these instead of cavalry? The fact that these units are cheaper and faster to produce doesn't count for much if you don't have them waiting when the siege camp arrives, because you still can't produce enough of them in time to turn the tide. B: Having everyone produce multiple troop types and studying the map looking for the best place to set a siege camp in order to nullify an opponent's likely counterattack based on the troops you have available and what you know of their army would actually require a good bit of strategy. Piling a mass of archers and pikemen an any adjacent square that isn't plains and waiting to see how much cav they hit you with? Not so much. Right now basic siege strategy is to arrange a precisely timed arrival of as many defensive troops as you can muster on a square minutes before the siege camp arrives so the enemy doesn't have time to coordinate a counter-operation to kill the first arrivals and control the site before the catapults arrive. You pretty much know that the counterattack is going to be cav based because this is what most people build in mass and because when the victim calls for help cavalry is going to get there first. Everyone is already producing the same troops, and that makes this more a game of massing the greatest number of those troops and finessing your sovereignty to rebuild them faster than the other guy. C: The only optional upgrade that would make much sense would be to make the wall more powerful against attack. You can have options to make walls more effective against one troop type or another, but since 80% of attacks are going to be cavalry the choice would be rather self-evident. D: I don't see how making all cities an Urban terrain type will " remove all reason for building on any squares other than the food boosting ones". If you look around, the vast majority of effective players have all their cities on a 7-food plains tile. The cities they don't have on 7-food plains are on those 7-food large forest tiles you have in the jungle. Or, if they are new enough, they may have done the Exodus/Tenaril's trick and managed to manufacture a 7-food mountain somewhere. There is already precious little sense in building a town anywhere that isn't good for seven farms... while you may gain some defensibility you are taking a 40% food production nerf, which equals significantly less tax income an a significantly smaller army.
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903 |
Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 18:57 |
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The preponderance of cav vs. archer engagements might also be related to the racial balance in the game -- that is, a game in which there are mostly humans and elves. Of course it can be argued that this is a feedback loop, where the most efficient combination of alts is human-elf.
(That's IF your alt will get up off her butt to make an army, which CERTAIN PEOPLE won't.)
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Elmindra
Forum Warrior
Joined: 10 Sep 2012 Status: Offline Points: 464 |
Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 15:58 |
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It takes a ratio of 6:9 gph upkeep for cavalry to kill archers in a large forest, while taking a ratio of 7.5:9 gph upkeep for swordsmen to kill archers in the same large forest. Tell me when you would ever send swords over cavalry when attacking in a large forest. If you do then I call you a fool for wasting 1.5gph upkeep needlessly in an attack. Now if more players other than orcs actually crafted spears things might be more even, but when replacing troops is the name of the game in war it is less efficient to craft spears at a 1:3gph upkeep than archers at 1:2gph upkeep.
You also get a 12:9 gph death ratio when attacking archers on a large mountain with cavalry, but it barely gets better at 11.4:9 gph death ratio when attacking archers on a large mountain with archers. When the cavalry can get there twice as fast, once again there is rarely a point to attack it with archers. Those are the two most extreme cases, in small forests and mountains the favor swings even more in favor of cavalry. So we can see that cavalry are the absolute best attacking force on plains, small hills, large hills, small forests, small mountains, large forests. How is that not imbalanced? Shouldn't swordsmen be best at more than just attacking buildings? Shouldn't archers be best at attacking more than just large mountains? I also never stated that cavalry should lose their plains bonus to attack, and I actually think cavalry should get a better bonus to defense on plains and also small hills. Cavalry should still remain king there, and honestly they would still be the best attack unit because of their speed. But cavalry should not always be the best attacking unit, and they definately should not be able to kill troops inside a town with a wall regardless what terrain the town sits on. It is a friggin wall, how do the cavalry charge the troops inside it? All I see in every single battle report is cavalry vs archers. I fail to see how making changes to empower swords and spears would reduce the amount of strategy already involved.
Edited by Elmindra - 30 Jan 2013 at 16:07 |
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geofrey
Postmaster General
Joined: 31 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 15:13 |
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The problem with changing/altering stats is that is would drastically alter the existing efficiency of armies. This could lead to a huge disadvantage for someone as soon as the change is put in place.
Take for example Mal Motsha (sorry Dominion). An immediate "tweek" that favors increasing effectiveness of spearmen would be huge for the spearmen heavy Black Skull Horde. If they also tweak it so that cavalry aren't as effective at attacking cities, then that could reduce the effectiveness of the cavalry of The Colony. Now the BSH has a huge advantage over it's neighbor, the Colony, and is more likely to win any battles between the two of them. What sucks is it isn't The Colonies fault. They were just on the bad end of the nerf hammer. The devs attempted to balance out some of the stats by implementing crafting. The idea was that it would take everyone a long time to build enough gear for anyone to have an advantage. Not to mention the research times associated with the crafting. This all was a way to keep anyone from feeling the pains of a nerf hammer, even tho some races/units got a larger statistical advantage (Silversteel Sword vs Silversteel Spear). I do agree that there is room for improvement. I think everyone here agrees there is room for improvement. I created a seperate thread to discuss an idea I had for improvement. I do not want to derail this thread, but if anyone is interested in a different suggestion please check out http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/strategic-divisions_topic4713.html Also here is a seperate post detailing some ideas for balancing siege mechanics. -http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/siege-counter-measure_topic4423.html?KW= Edited by geofrey - 30 Jan 2013 at 15:15 |
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Darkwords
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1005 |
Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 13:14 |
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LOL... get involved in a war, may main account is Darkone btw. And yes, I have been involved in many wars and I have defeated MANY seiges, when they were much harder to defeat.
You can also get a much better than 1:1 ratio with other (cheaper and faster to produce) troops in these terrains, as I keep saying try using some strategy, rather than just moaning that you think this game doesn't have any.
reducing their terrain adv for plains IS weakening cav, upping the terrain def of all other troop types is weakening cav. How will making the same troop type best for def and attack on certain terrains going to increase strategy? It will purely mean everyone producing the same troops to fight over particular squares and would prove extremely boring game play.
Your idea regarding altering spear recruitment speed is fine, I do not see why a standard wall bonus should be increased, but I do like the previous idea of adding to the wall in another way. Although I would rather see optional upgrades rather than another tier. Changing the terrain of all cities to buildings or some unique 'city' terrain will only remove all reason for building on any squares other than the food boosting ones and therefore limit the game even further, you started to post claiming you wanted to add strategy to this game, yet all your ideas will reduce game strategy. I am not against ideas for making seiges slightly more defensible, even though they are much easier to defend now than before, but I do stand against ideas that merely make this game more and more mechanical. |
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Elmindra
Forum Warrior
Joined: 10 Sep 2012 Status: Offline Points: 464 |
Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 12:45 |
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Get involved in a war and you will shortly see the best tactic for defending a town is to NOT leave your armies there to get wiped out by masses of cavalry. And yes, you still send cavalry to wipe siege camps in forests and even mountains since they still get better than a 1:1 kill death ratio even in these terrains. And I am not mad my cities are getting attacked, I actually feel bad for the people who I can wipe their defenders from their town with minimal cavalry losses.
I don't think you need to weaken cavalry themselves, just change the terrain modifiers. I am even in favor for upping the plains defense modifier for cavalry on plains. They should be the best offensively AND defensively on the plains (and better on small hills). The actual troop numbers are fine, there just needs to be more of an incentive via terrain modifiers to make other troops useful. Make cities always be classified as buildings, not just during the capture/raze attempt. Increase the terrain modifiers from 30 to 50% in the extreme cases (both on offense and defense). Increase the wall bonus from 115% to 215% or higher. Increase the T1 and T2 spearmen training speed to match their upkeep.
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twilights
Postmaster
Joined: 21 May 2012 Status: Offline Points: 915 |
Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 12:40 |
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with the wealth that this game has in resources and with the value added with the addition of v2 resources and crafted items and also with the addition of unlimited storage of trade hubs the costs of maintaining a huge army of any type is no longer a factor. the main factor in how large of an army a player can have comes down to the amount of time and prestige they are willing to put into the game .....this forum has seen this concern posted several times by players when they left the game....be prepared for 100k cav armies by the larger long term players, it will become common place to see the how big an army strategy as the game ages....the devs need to come up with a reason to use the troops other than just sitting in castles to see how many u can build...tournaments is a boring answer.....good luck devs
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Darkwords
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1005 |
Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 10:01 |
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Again, if the advantages of cav were to be removed then so must their exessive production and maintanance cost.
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Daufer
Forum Warrior
Joined: 14 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 332 |
Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 09:41 |
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Terrain modifier adjustment seems pretty reasonable. Yes, on plains cavalry should be 2-3 times more effective than other troop types. However, given that their base attack is 60-65 and infantry cav defense is only 17-20, odds are that a cavalry attack on infantry entrenched in a forest is still going to inflict 2:1 losses and that is preposterous. Ideally, each troop type should be specialized for terrain. Let cavalry be absolutely dominating on plains and small hills for example, but conversely almost useless in mountains, forests and buildings. Let Infantry be the master of large hills and forests but helpless in open ground or mountains. Let archers rule the mountains and buildings, but weak in plains and forests. Let spearmen be the default, reasonably good everywhere but always weaker than a specialist troop on its preferred ground. Every unit type should be significantly stronger than the others in choice terrain and significantly weaker in unfavorable terrain. As it stands now the terrain modifiers are worth taking into account (you might need to send an extra 15-25% troops) but some units are so strong as to be the default choice and some so weak as to be pointless. Cavalry has always been the primary culprit here. Yes, cavalry has always been the king of the battlefield -- field being the operative word. On uneven ground they never have been terribly effective. The Saxons on Senlac Hill at Hastings turned back countless Norman cavalry charges, and we all know how archers at Agincourt obliterated the French cavalry who charged them across a sea of mud. The whole point of the pike squares ubiquitous in 17th century warfare was their immunity to cavalry charge. You don't see much cavalry action in the mountains, and I have never heard of a cavalry army successfully storming a walled city either... horses are lousy climbers. Cities should also be their own terrain, preferably something like buildings. Do the defenders all just line up on main street and wait for cavalry to ride them down after opening the gates for them? A cavalry attack on a walled plains city defended by T2 spearmen is still going to give a better than 1:1 kill ratio and that is totally absurd. Even the Huns and Mongols had to dismount to fight inside a city. Historically the only effective way to capture a city was to force a surrender through starvation or to break down the walls with siege engines and then storm with infantry in a house-to-house bloodbath. In Illyriad it basically boils down to whoever has the most cavalry wins. If you are human there is almost no reason to build anything but cavalry: you get a 10% bonus to cav's already bloated attack numbers and you produce them more cheaply than any other race. Even dwarves, with the worst cavalry and best infantry in the game, are better off building cavalry as often as not. Unless an opponent is considerate enough to build his siege camp in a forest and protect it with pikemen, I'm better off siccing the mules on them. For defense almost everyone is better off building archers because they have good all around scores and you can attack with them as well, particularly if you are an elf. Spearmen are cheaper, but they are lousy on the attack and only good against cavalry, which is so overpowered that it will still wipe out your spear army easily. TLDR: As I see it, the heart of the problem is that military effectiveness of many troop types is grossly unrealistic, as is having a walled city carry no special terrain modifier.
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Darkwords
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1005 |
Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 03:48 |
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Would make hunting npc's rather tricky. ;)
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