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The Electrocutioner View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Military for New Players
    Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 04:31
Greetings everyone,

I often see new players asking for advice in global chat about building armies. The near-universal response is to tell them not to do that, it will stunt their growth, it is somehow bad for them.

THIS IS NOT TRUE, and it is extremely frustrating to see vets discourage new players who show an interest in the military side of the game.

Or, to be more accurate, it is not true with just a little bit of help from larger players. Much like we love to give basic res to new players to start them on their way, giving them a few thousand gold and some beer and spears can start them on the way to building their first spearunit army on their first day in the game, if they choose to do so. And it will not hurt them or stunt their growth at all! 

I think we all agree that the most important things for a new player are storehouse capacity and becoming self-sufficient with basic resource production. This is true no matter what path they are interested in. However, the player does not have to sacrifice these things in order to start building an army on day one if they want. The barracks only need to be at level 1 to build spear units, level 3 for ranged, level 5 for infantry, and level 11 for cavalry. That requires a rather meager amount of build time. It will not hurt their overall growth to level up their barracks here and there. They can still spend the majority of build time on resource plots and storehouse. And with a small gift of gold from a larger player, they can still set their taxes at zero, so res production is not penalized at all just because they are supporting an army.

Does a new player need to have an army? Of course not. No one is likely to pick on them when their rainbow wears off, and even if that happens, the community would come to their defense. It is certainly correct to tell a new player that they don't need to worry about building an army anytime soon, if they don't want to.

But what if they WANT to? Why discourage them? Just like you would send them a load of basics, why not send them 10k gold and 500 spears and beer and encourage them to start a spear army right away? If a new player is specifically interested in military (as opposed to just worried about being attacked), we should encourage this just as much as we encourage them to build cotters or sell cows or whatever.

When I started playing Illy, I was fascinated by the troop units and wanted to know how to use them and how combat worked. But I heard, over and over, don't build troops, it's bad, wait until you are bigger. So I waited. And I got bored. And I wondered why the game was structured so that I had to achieve a certain size before I could make use of troops.

But now I realize, the game is NOT structured that way. It's just that a lot of players are under the illusion that it is. There is no harm in having armies right away if you want them. Small players can begin learning military mechanics right away with NPC's, or they can engage in PvP with other small, like-minded players. The only consequences are losing troops - you can't damage cities when you're that small and don't have siege capability. So it's the perfect time to start practicing and learning! Why wait?

The great thing about Illy is that there are many paths you can choose, and military is one of them. I am posting this to suggest that we encourage this path enthusiastically with new players who show a specific interest in it, rather than telling them they ought to wait.

Cheers,
ELECTROK

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Rill View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 04:56
My main problem with this suggestion is that you can't do much interesting with a spear army.  I mean, sure it will kill more than no army at all, but not by much.  Although it is difficult, I think new players will probably have a bit more fun if they wait until they're able to build t1 infantry, which are more effective in attack for the same amount of gold.  t1 infantry also only require a level 5 barracks.

As for whether "all" new players should do this, probably not.  It's right for some and not for others.  Having and using an army can create additional complications, such as what happens when a really big player squashes your army -- or what happens when you squash the army of your neighbor who is in a powerful alliance.

Some new players will be able to handle this challenge just fine.  Others might be better off sitting back and taking the temperature of the game and their neighborhood a bit more.

"Live by the sword and die by the sword" is a good aphorism to remember here.  If one uses one army to get oneself into a mess, one is likely to be met with someone else using armies as well.  Some people will have great fun with that, and other people won't.

In terms of armies, I would suggest starting small, practicing good communication with neighbors and ... when in doubt, scout!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 07:10
A fine article. I had my first army of dwarven infantry ready by the end of my first week. I also begged some hides from SimplyDivine and built a skinner, even though everyone told me not to. There were these cool animal parts next to my city that my cotters couldn't pick up. I got 1 Wolf Fur on my first outing. Pretty soon I was hacking up wild dogs, building more skinners, and having a good time. Whenever I asked military questions in GC, lots of people told me that I was too small to use crafted equipment, or level commanders, or have an army, or worry about elite divisions. But other players were cool, and sent me IGMs with explanations, pointed me to guides, and sent me 'forbidden' things like swords, chainmail, saddles and even cooler stuff like boar spears and war axes. Hunting really helped me to stay in Illy, because let's face it, if all you're doing in your first several weeks is leveling resource plots and begging for resources in GC, this game is unforgivably boring.

I have often thought about writing an article like this, except about trade (including hunting). People get so hung up on grinding and begging as The One True Approach, and there are so many other neat things to do in Illyriad. I clench my teeth when people start telling newbs about 7 food plots, exodus and terraforming. As awesome as the Illyriad community is, I think that sometimes it crowds out the cartographers, the traders, the hunters, and yes, even the much-maligned wargamers.

Electrok is right, if they aren't siege-capable, the worst damage a newb can do is kill the other guy's troops and take a pittance of basic resources. Then you sit them down and have a talk about playing nice with their neighbors (although ideally you should have that discussion prior to sending them armaments). Theoretically they could kill harvesters, but nobody with any sense sends out unprotected skinners, and you can easily replace miners, cotters, herbalists and caravans.

It's all just digital bits on a server. There isn't any harm to sending some gold and 100 of each troop resource to a new player. It's a valid way to enjoy Illyriad, just like all the other ways.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 07:24
I love the idea of new players starting their military early.  I did much to the displeasure to a certain nameless person in the training alliance I was in.  

Its a good time to learn all about NPC hunting.  Plus only having 1 city the game doesn't have a lot to do.  A little more now thx to crafting, but you can't do much gathering without an army to mark your spot which brings us back to military.  

I'm wholly against small players using military against other players though (exception being your in an alliance that goes to war).  Honestly all they would end up doing is getting themselves into trouble.  I much prefer our 'newb' friendly environment that protects them till they get more experience with the game.  If someone uses their first 100 units to attack the next smallest player to them you can bet the friendly part of the game will go away.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 17:08
I have no issue for new player to have an army... I believe they need to build all the parts to get the army not have it handed to them.  I was killing NPC early with spear men.. just to learn.. but No one handed me the items to do it.  I think the city needs to be big enough to support the army.. and have the proper buildings to make the t2 resources to produce the troops.. 

I tend to lean to build your storehouse.. keep you resources at pop level ( 100 pop 100 resource per hr) And in the other time build your T2 buildings make 25 at a time.. learn not just the military part of killing the target but the requirements to make the troops.. when you are that small and see how long it takes and how much of the little resources you have I believe it gives you a little more respect for the time and effort it takes to make a decent size army and less likely to throw it away.

granted this is only my 2 cents worth
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 17:52
with the new build times for troops its very important for newbies to learn military quickly. there are several military training alliances around to help. with alliances helping  newbies to take  castles of quitters, build time is becoming less an issue. the more experience military player are seeing the impact that smaller accounts can do in warfare as we are learning that not all buildings are needed to make war cities and amazing amounts of troops. its important to learn this aspect of the game and the sooner the better.
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tansiraine View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 18:07
With that being said Twi the newbies need to know the expense of an army.. i is all great for stuff to be handed to them but if they do not understand the expense to make and support and army they will be begging for gold from every one.. so all parts of the military building is needed including how to support the troops with out begging for help
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st aug View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 19:38
Great post. I see nothing with a player building an army and learning how to use them from the get go. Not everyone is going to play this game for years and wait to play. For some people   the best way to learn anything is just do it. If you think there making a mistake let them make it and learn remember it's there game to play not yours. I know there's a lot of people that just love to help people and that is fine but they have to understand some people don't need are want there help and wish to build an army for jump street and go for broke. That should be ok so let them play and learn even if it is the hard way. And if they do something there not suppose to do don't worrie some body will check them on it.

Edited by st aug - 23 Jun 2013 at 19:49
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Ossian View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2013 at 12:37
Good opening post but just remember be smart with your diplomacy.
 
Building armies can be great fun. It's the commander that  counts in the first instance; your units second and how you use them third.
 
Once you choose the pathway of the warrior in Illy other bigger bored players will see you as such and will be looking for any excuse to attack you.  So if you want the buzz that goes with building your army then that is all good... but be prepared for the down when half a dozen players suddenly rush to destroy it. 


Edited by Ossian - 24 Jun 2013 at 12:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2013 at 13:42
Originally posted by Ossian Ossian wrote:

Good opening post but just remember be smart with your diplomacy.
 
Building armies can be great fun. It's the commander that  counts in the first instance; your units second and how you use them third.
 
Once you choose the pathway of the warrior in Illy other bigger bored players will see you as such and will be looking for any excuse to attack you.  So if you want the buzz that goes with building your army then that is all good... but be prepared for the down when half a dozen players suddenly rush to destroy it. 

Ok thats just flat out wrong in Illy.  There are a few jerks but they would attack no matter what, and when they do there is a pretty strong newb friendly environment to help them out.  

There isn't any 'half a dozen players suddenly' rushing to destroy any new players.  If anybody did try that there would be a dozen players suddenly rushing to destroy the annoying half dozen.  

Also sense most people just look at city size, they would have no idea if you chose the 'warrior', the trade path, the craft path ect.  
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