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Captain Kindly View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2015 at 18:59
AJ,

I really don't understand you, man.

First you start a Crusade against alliances claiming a piece of land to ensure their own growth future, and in some cases (like SIN) that of their confeds. That is even older than my account is. You get reasonable and logical replies, and while you claim to understand them, yet you don't seem to be accepting them.

Now you start about Metadiscussion, something probably even older than land claims. The whole Diplomatic page in Illy is just the tip of the iceberg there, and it always has been. That is the stuff Alliance Leaders do. Talking between leaders, either through IGM or Skype is more common than you think.

Again, I have no idea what you want to achieve with all these long winded posts, except for trying to get the last word in. FWIW, during the last few weeks, I noted this stuff is downing the respect you have from other players a lot. It sure has been doing that for me.

Maybe you should change your name into Don Quixote, and find yourself a Sancho Panza...



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ajqtrz View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2015 at 19:24
Originally posted by Captain Kindly Captain Kindly wrote:

AJ,

I really don't understand you, man.

First you start a Crusade against alliances claiming a piece of land to ensure their own growth future, and in some cases (like SIN) that of their confeds. That is even older than my account is. You get reasonable and logical replies, and while you claim to understand them, yet you don't seem to be accepting them.

Now you start about Metadiscussion, something probably even older than land claims. The whole Diplomatic page in Illy is just the tip of the iceberg there, and it always has been. That is the stuff Alliance Leaders do. Talking between leaders, either through IGM or Skype is more common than you think.

Again, I have no idea what you want to achieve with all these long winded posts, except for trying to get the last word in. FWIW, during the last few weeks, I noted this stuff is downing the respect you have from other players a lot. It sure has been doing that for me.

Maybe you should change your name into Don Quixote, and find yourself a Sancho Panza...



First, it's not considered good debating style to personally attack your opponent.  I regret your frustration but perhaps it would be better expressed in personal correspondence than in a public forum.  But to answer your questions, or at least the questions you imply (I think)....

The conclusion that the replies are "reasonable and logical" may be true as far as they go.  Logic is limited by the premises upon which it is based.  You may have noticed that not many have figured out that we are starting with different premises and thus, even if our logic is perfect, will probably arrive at differing conclusions.  Hopefully we can then discuss the premises upon which we base our conclusions...something I've repeatedly stated...though, to be honest, I've not yet couched the whole thing in terms of premises.

Second, do only alliance leaders discuss?  Is the forum only for alliance leaders?  My alt is the leader of an alliance...does that count?  While I'm certainly glad that alliance leaders talk, I wish to bring in all the players of Illy.  After all, they too should have a voice, even if it isn't one which marches in step to what their alliances leaders may or may say.

Calling me long winded is a negative comment.  Generally if one is considered long winded it's usually because he or she is making complex sentences where short ones would do.  I generally do write complex sentences, but in good discussion distinctions must be made and can only be made with proper grammar and syntax.  That often means more complexity in the argument and thus more complexity in the writing style.  I'm sorry if you have had some difficulty in stomaching that. 

As for getting the last word, should one quit debating in the middle of a debate?  If the debate is truly over then perhaps the audience should leave the one who will not shut up on the stage and leave the auditorium.  That people are reading and responding to my posts means they wish to have the last word, or I wish to have the last word, or the debate is not over.  I would suggest the last of these as the most probable. 

As for my reputation, I'm sorry your frustration over my utterances has caused you lower your expectations of myself.  Sadly though, you may just started with too high an opinion in the first place and now "the water is finding it's own level."  On the other hand, why do some continue to debate the issues?  If my reputation is sinking then obviously eventually I'll be writing to an audience of one...and empty auditorium.  So if you really think debate is over you can leave now.  After all, if your arguments have been irrefutable they, by definition, can't be refuted and why keep repeating yourself?  Leave me on the stage alone talking to myself...LOL.

Of course your response just emphasizes the reality that we are not avatars and it's not "just a game." Whoever you may be in real life you are the one feeling frustrated.  That's important.  We are dealing with human activities and thus, should act like civil human beings, despite what the game allows.  That's one of the premises with which I start.

AJ


Edited by ajqtrz - 19 Jun 2015 at 19:24
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Ashmadia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2015 at 19:51
I am calm aj, i just stated why i cannot participate in a conversation with you any more. I'm irritated by your stance and have grown tired of it. Therefore, i'm inclined to follow your advice and leave you on the stage alone, victorious in your fight of words.

PS: You really need evidence to justify abstractdream's statement, that Stomps is actually trying to enforce a zone 2 claim, like it is defined by TVM, on the whole land? I mean, seriously?
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Jane DarkMagic View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2015 at 19:54
I think ajq thinks this is the Last Post Wins thread...  I must inform you that someone won that a long time ago!
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ajqtrz View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2015 at 21:22
Sorry Ash if I missed something in TVM's post.   That can happen.  And I may have missed something in  STOMP's utterances.  That too can happen.  However, in debate if you are asked for your evidence you are expected to bring it out.  It is not the job of your opponent to do the research for you. 

In addition, a "Zone 2" claim, a TVM uses the term, does not extend to all of Illy, as STOMP seems to be addressing, so there is some discontinuity.

This is a thread on what is proper and improper in discussion.  Thus,  my asking for his evidence, even if I had it in my back pocket, is just a proper technique of debate.

Jane.  Really?  You could have just not said that and it would not have been missed by me.  But of course, to get the last word in a debate you have to actually debate.  Attacking your opponents motives is definitely not good style.  Remember, if you can't address the question at hand you cannot substitute a different question and expect to have carried your point.  The question is: what is appropriate in a civil discussion, not "is AJ trying to get the last word."  Do feel free to start a thread on that subject if you like.

AJ
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mjc2 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2015 at 22:09
ajq. ok since you really need proof of STOMP making a "zone 2" land claim as TVM uses the term lets see how TVM uses the term and then read the STOMP alliance profile

TVMs definition:  Zone Two: The territory located within the borders of the zone two claim are to remain expressly claim free. This exclusion includes TRIVIUM as well as all other players, alliances and confederations, allied or not allied to TRIVIUM. The claim free designation places this territory into a protectorate that is administered by TRIVIUM on behalf of all occupant cities, now or in the future within the borders of this exclusionary zone. Any land claim attempted within the borders of this exclusionary zone will be considered null and void. Any land claim enforcement attempted within the borders of this exclusionary zone will be countered by the full force of TRIVIUM.

posted on STOMP alliance profile:  Thus, an idea took form and STOMP was created with the intention to strike down alliances whom have the audacity to claim parts of a region as their own.

so in essence a TVM zone 2 land claim means "no one can claim land here" and STOMP says "no one can claim land anywhere" so as for the extent of STOMPs zone 2 land claim, that is all of illyraid.
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ajqtrz View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2015 at 18:40
A bit convoluted but of course, the "Zone 2" is in effect for all of Illy even if STOMP doesn't claim it.  TVM's definition actually says they are going to administer part of Illy.  STOMP says they are going to protect ALL of Illy and that is what we all should be doing.  I seriously doubt Pico and the gang are actually claiming anything, but instead, using a pragmatic statement to make the point that ALL of Illyriad needs protecting from the land grabbers (don't you love that term?), and they intend to do that protecting.  More power to them.

See what happens when you actually present your evidence?  You get an nice explanation about how you aren't interpreting it correctly.....and that too is part of civil debate.

AJ
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Mona Lisa View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2015 at 23:00
Utopian dreams of ideal debates resolving conflict is whimsical at best and presumes far too much of both sides.  it would be a uniquely rare event for the side losing the rhetorical debate to be aware of that fact let alone be willing to modify their behavior over it.  Far more consistent is the doubling down of irrationality and entrenchment of opposing views.

It also takes more than just being abstractly "right" to be able to actually carry that through militarily.  Just because someone may be (subjectively) "right" does not mean they have the political (or military) savvy to be able to achieve their goals.  Fools often rush in when prudence would suggest otherwise.

In illy there have really not been that many "big" wars, since I have been playing (Oct 2011), there really has only been 2 "world" wars, the "Consone War" and "The Great War" ,  a host of minor conflicts that all grossly pale in comparison.  The real holders of military might honestly do not exercise it very often, and tend to show amazing restraint in the face of often times great temptation. The blathering about the mightly constantly crushing the meek in Illy is pure fantasy. 

My heart truly bleeds for the oppressed in Illy...  who are they now? I seem to have missed the memo...


Edited by Mona Lisa - 22 Jun 2015 at 19:54
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Angrim View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2015 at 23:19
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

TVM's definition actually says they are going to administer part of Illy.  STOMP says they are going to protect ALL of Illy and that is what we all should be doing.
then why, after all this rhetoric, are you not doing it?
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Brandmeister View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2015 at 23:49
Originally posted by Mona Lisa Mona Lisa wrote:

My heart truly bleeds for the oppressed in Illy...  who are they now? I seem to have missed the memo...


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