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Brids17 View Drop Down
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Points: 1483 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 05:02
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

4) In what ways does a discussion become a war?  And if it does, should it spill over into the game?  Should people be punished in the game for what they say in the forums?  If so, does that not give control of the forums to the larger players and alliances?  Can they not censor a speaker who does not say what they say that speaker should say?

You should be able to answer that one yourself. 

Originally posted by Dungshoveleux Dungshoveleux wrote:

Rule 7?

That's rule 1 surely Wink

Rule 1: There are no rules.
Rule 2: Please refer to rule 1.

I thought rule 1 and 2 was that you don't talk about the rules? 


Edited by Brids17 - 05 Jun 2015 at 05:09
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ajqtrz View Drop Down
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Points: 500 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 22:51
Twi, are you a pretend person?  Are the emotions, good and bad, you experience in playing the game imaginary?  Do magical fingers type and click the mouse?  The game is an imaginary journey but it is a human one too.  A long time ago Aristotle discussed the importance of the imagination and our enjoyment of stories.  In his discussion he suggested that stories are "cathartic" and that we draw our enjoyment from them.  Thus, while many would like to pretend that there is a giant wall between their character on line and their actual person sitting in the seat before the computer (or whatever device you use), that wall is what is mostly a pretense.

Try this experiment.  Try building in whatever game you like, something that takes a long time, a lot of personal creativity, and is something admired by other players.  Then don't defend it against any attacks.  Just let people walk all over it, totally destroying it against you will.  Now I ask you two questions: why did you care? and why did you want it protected?  It's just an imaginary thing for heavens sake.  The hours you put into it were not imaginary hours, of course.  And the skills you learned are not imaginary.  So why would you be frustrated if somebody just destroyed it?

My argument is simple.  It's YOU, not your imaginary character in an imaginary world, who decides to spend the time and energy building things up, and it's YOU who experience the thrill of being well respected, not your imaginary character.  Thus, as much as you would like to call it, "just a game" it's probably not, otherwise you wouldn't feel proud of what you had accomplished.

You may understand that the world of play is imaginary, but remember you carry your real self into that world.

AJ
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ajqtrz View Drop Down
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Points: 500 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 22:54
Brids1, 

I can answer what happens as that is a matter of history.  But whether it should or should not happen, that is a matter of ethics.  So what do you think?

AJ
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ajqtrz View Drop Down
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Points: 500 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 03:07
What if this is what I enjoy?  What if I like to play the game as I do and all the negative responses to my comments are enjoyable to me?

What if I like to crusade in the world of ideas and try to get game players everywhere to remember that behind each avatar is a real person?

You see, I don't think the discussions I'm having are with imaginary beings.  I think the thoughts expressed are real people thinking and real people writing.  Thus, if I change their mind about one thing or another, I'm doing what I like to do and having fun doing it.

My problem is when people choose to bring weapons to the discussion that are inappropriate to the discussion. 

Suppose you and I are having a debate and I am "losing"...meaning I'm seeing that I'm not putting up an argument good enough to "defeat" your argument.  Does that mean I'm not right?  Maybe, maybe not.  In any case, there is one way I can respond that is civil.  I can do a better job of arguing by gathering more information, more evidence, and more reasonable arguments.  And there is one way I can respond that is uncivil:  I can simply go over to the game and take out  a few of your cities.

Which course of action is appropriate?  Which course has a chance of actually showing you that you are wrong and that I am right?  Will you be persuaded once all your cities are destroyed and you've left the game for other lands?  Will that help the game be better?  Will it mean other players will engage me in debates?  Will it encourage anything but silence and fear?

You cannot have civil debate when debaters are allowed to threaten each other.  You cannot have reasonable discourse if you use other weapons than reason.  I enjoy reasonable debate and learn much from it.  Do you?

AJ


Edited by ajqtrz - 06 Jun 2015 at 03:09
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Points: 500 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 19:54
The following was in a separate thread which Rikoo thought too redundant.  I think not, but he has the ability to do what he thinks best, so I've moved it to here.  Sorry if it clutters this discussion somewhat.  AJ
-----------------------------------------------------------------
A definition is not a sacred thing.  It is, though, a touchstone upon which disagreements can be adjudicated.  There are those who would like me to quit quoting definitions.  They somehow seem to think that a word can mean whatever they want it to mean and if it doesn't exactly fit, well, too bad.

Let us imagine a world where that is the norm.  Where if I call you a "racist pig" I don't have to mean what you think the term means.  In that world the phrase, "racist pig" can mean "nice guy" to me and  something else to you.  In which case the defense for slander would be "when I called you a 'racist pig' I meant "nice guy."  After which everybody breaths better because obviously "racist pig' could mean exactly whatever I want it to mean.

Or perhaps, you call me a "racist pig" and you believe that it means "nice guy."  How clever.  Now I can't legally declare that you have slandered me because a word can mean whatever you want...right?  But I can send my armies.    And if I destroy all your cities and run you out of the game have I proved that the phrase "racist pig" cannot mean "nice guy?" Of course not.  Silencing the debate ends the debate and no conclusions can be drawn.

So how do we avoid the scenarios described here?  How do we decide what a word means when it's in dispute.  Ahhh...you got it!  We use the dictionary.  In formal debate a debater who does not have reasonable support for key terms -- reasonable support meaning authoritative definitions -- is usually at a great disadvantage.

In the end then, I will continue to quote and use definitions from authoritative sources.  If you are wise you too will stop denigrating their use as it seems pretty silly to me for you to be arguing with Webster.  I think he has more clout in the realm definitions than you.
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twilights View Drop Down
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Points: 915 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 20:11
i make baked goods all the time, i raise plants and animals for food, i play games, yes i am human but as i said we are playing a game. when they gone we continue and even when we humans are gone we continue...i suggest u make dinner for your family tonight and garnish it to make it look wonderful..omg i hope its eaten and then its gone....try playing the game competitively....u might enjoy even losing as long as u are playing....there are outs in baseball!
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abstractdream View Drop Down
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Points: 1857 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2015 at 01:12
...and like baseball, if you lose in Illy, you play again.

I understand the interest in posting in a forum discussion but it gets to a point where redundant becomes the nicest thing to say about it; eventually one is posting just to read what one wrote. Maybe evolve the discussion a bit? Try this one: http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/elgea-and-bl_topic6440.html#87292
Bonfyr Verboo
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Angrim View Drop Down
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Points: 1173 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 01:13
Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

4) In what ways does a discussion become a war?  And if it does, should it spill over into the game?
erm...huh? is this about forum behaviour or not? because if a forum discussion became an actual war, the last thing i would worry over is whether or not it would then spill over into the game.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

Should people be punished in the game for what they say in the forums?
by punished, do you mean they should have to live with the consequences of their remarks? that goes to whether or not forum accounts ought to be anonymous, and my experience suggests that most players feel they should not. iirc, the devs have now weighed in, and the answer from them is also no. if a decision has been made to prevent anonymous posts, i would conclude that players are expected to own their remarks here, with all the attendant implications.

Originally posted by ajqtrz ajqtrz wrote:

If so, does that not give control of the forums to the larger players and alliances?  Can they not censor a speaker who does not say what they say that speaker should say?
apparently not. art imitates life. some statements will demand a level of sacrifice, be they lies or truths. afaik, the only entities capable of censoring this forum are GM Rikoo and very occasionally GM Stormcrow. (i suspect GM Thundercat could also manage it, but i can't imagine what mischief you'd have to get up to to warrant his notice.)



Edited by Angrim - 09 Jun 2015 at 01:14
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Ricky View Drop Down
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Points: 50 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 02:52
I think the important question here is: how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
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ajqtrz View Drop Down
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Points: 500 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 18:18
Originally posted by twilights twilights wrote:

i make baked goods all the time, i raise plants and animals for food, i play games, yes i am human but as i said we are playing a game. when they gone we continue and even when we humans are gone we continue...i suggest u make dinner for your family tonight and garnish it to make it look wonderful..omg i hope its eaten and then its gone....try playing the game competitively....u might enjoy even losing as long as u are playing....there are outs in baseball!


It's a sandbox...right?  Thus, to you what is "competitive" may not be to me what is "competitive."  I am playing it competitively by my style.  What you are really saying, I think, is that we shouldn't put so much energy and emotion into the game because "it's just a game."  Fine....so why would anybody take what was said in the forum and race over to the game to "prove" their point by "competing" with the one who said what you didn't like?  It's just a forum post for heaven's sake.

See the problem?  You think we should all chill out because "it's just a game" and take our "punishment" for whatever we say in the forums because it not really that important.  The same argument can be made about what is said in the forums since they can easily be ignored ... a lot more easily than armies at your city walls I might observe, so why shouldn't those reading what they don't like just chill out?  After all, "it's just the forum."

You can't have it a one way street where those in the forums are supposed to roll over and let those who have no answer to arguments made, decide to take it to a different playing field, so to speak.  If I lose at baseball I don't have the right to drop a bowling ball on your foot the next night when we are bowling.  The forums are competitive if we discuss and argue.  To let it spill over into the game is to change the basis of the competition and the field of the competition.  If you want fairness and competition you have to have some ground rules, one of which is you don't take the baseball loss to the bowling alley.

In the world of debate and discussion it has never been considered the "proof" of a point to reach over and slap your opponent silly.   I don't think it should be allowed here either.

AJ
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