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Topic ClosedLimiting siege damage

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Erik Dirk View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Limiting siege damage
    Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 23:56
I wasn't saying that clusters shouldn't have any advantage, my point is that an ally who's town is 2 days away would likely entirely miss the battle, or at least your town would be a soldering ruin by the time their army arrives. And Kiltov, have you heard of feints? if you just go to defend a city as soon as a siege army is on it's way then your armies are going to be left stranded. 
Just saying that at the moment a spread out alliance V.s. a clustered alliance is almost an automatic win for the cluster. Where as if a siege lasted at least a week then 1/4 of the siege being over when your army arrives isn't good but its not check mate either. Also some players are more than 2 days away.

The question is are you honestly saying that an alliance which likes to explore the map should be almost entirely unable to defend itself? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 13:58
I agree with you Kilotov, fine strategy and smart thinking are very valuable.
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Kilotov of DokGthung View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 13:49
bull.
sally is a useful tool. if you cant use it, well that's your problem.
its super effective in delaying sieges from bombing and such.
this is a game where fine strategy and smart thinking are much, much more valuable than a ton of troops
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 13:46
Usually there is more then one camp, which also makes sally forth less efectiv, not that anyone would use sally forth since it is risk of having many troops tied up on one location, not to mention that feint siege attacks is good way to send enemy troops on days march in wrong direction in effort to reinf a city and to be used for sally forth.Sally forth is obsolete and risky strategy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 13:05
Seige is limited to 30 engines anyways... so there is a solid cap on the rate that damage can be done.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 13:02
Originally posted by Erik Dirk Erik Dirk wrote:

Creature, you may say that sally for is good enough, but you have to agree that siege is still waaaay too fast. It's been stated many times that players like the leisurely pace of this game, however doesn't the possibility of loosing an entire city in a day, fly in the face of these players?

Oh also are you really in favour of alliance clusters being a huge, HUGE! strategic advantage.  With the use of feints it would be impossible for a spread out alliance to prevent cities being destroyed. Yes there should be some tactical advantage in clusters, but if say a couple of buildings got damages in the say 2 days it takes to re-inforce a town it would be much fairer than loosing the entire city.

What many of us are saying is that the speed of a siege is unrealistic, unbalanced, and ultimately bad for the game. Some of us would like greater defence which could be more controversial but surely you must agree with the above.

for the first part, i was thinking of making a dwarf siege army that could raze a 25k town in about 12h+ 12h from camping.
there should be about 75 balistas and about 10 towers. this is the only way to lose a town in a day. ( you cant lose a town in a day whit just 1 regular camp.)
this project had to be abandoned cause of impossibly high upkeep.
siege is slow. sige armies take a huge amount of time to move ( max 6 sq/h whit speedy commander. you can see a siege coming DAYS before it lands... try guess where the enemy is gonna deploy siege camp and send some def troops to occupy the square, you will see the profit in doing so.
about ally clusters... lol... yea, this is where territoriality comes into play.
its only obvious that having clusters ( ally clusters) is gonna help. this is not a game for loners or the "roughe dude" type of player. you can still try it, but asap you become... how to say... a nuisance you will be defenceless against massive offensive.

the speed of siege is just fine. you suck at defending, thats all. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 11:51
I'm one of those who prefers that a siege should be centered around starving the besiege city into submission, rather then outright destroying it (though that should still be possible). Here's my suggestion of how that could be handled.

  • When a siege army arrives, the basic resource production should fall by 10% / hour (stops completely after 10 hours).
  • When the siege encampment has been set up (after 12 hours), the troops would no longer desert the besieged city's army when the player can no longer pay their upkeep (after all, the city is isolated from the rest of the world, no one can leave). In fact, I would suggest that the player no longer has to pay troop upkeep during siege, but should the siege be lifted the player would be given 1 week to pay the missed upkeep, perhaps even with a small interest.
  • Bombardment would not be the default order for the siege army. The player would have to give the order to begin bombardment.
  • Defending catapults would only return fire on the siege army during bombardments. Their target would be enemy siege engines, though if they miss their target, they would still have a small chance of killing a few troops. Since siege engines are smaller targets than buildings (and can be moved), chances of hitting one should also be smaller.
  • When the besieged city has been out of food for 24 hours, the defending troops would start losing 2% of their fighting strength pr. hour. After 50 hours of this (when their strength would fall to 0%), they would disappear and the city would surrender. Should a player manage to smuggle some food into the city, their strength would return by 2% / hour the food is available.

With food being an important part of siege, destroying buildings in a large city might not be the best strategy, as that would lower the total population, and therefore also food consumption. Perhaps the option to demolish buildings should also be removed during siege, and even during the 12 hours that a siege encampment is being set up, increase the time it takes to demolish a building.

Also, I think that the suggestion of building downgrading due to food shortage, which is discussed elsewhere, could work well together with this.



As to what happens once the city surrenders, the conquering player would still have the 2 options of either taking it as his own, or razing it.

These options however should not be instantaneous, but rather take an amount of time proportional to the city size. 

Razing could decrease the level of all buildings by 1 every hour, while capturing the city could take 3 hours for each 1000 population. During this time the city would still belong to its original owner, and if the enemy army is driven from the city, the city would return to its owner. The damage from razing would of course remain.



I also think we should have more options to choose from when we win a siege. I have mentioned somewhere else the possibility of occupying a city and being able to harvest a portion of its production. 

Another option could be to plunder it. This would be a slower version of razing, which would lower the level of all buildings by 1 once every 4 hours, but would also give the gold equivalent of the destroyed building level construction cost. The soldiers would take all the gold they can carry, but the rest would have to be gathered with caravans. (If a razed/plundered city would leave behind ruins on the world map, these could be harvested by caravans.)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 09:58
In alliance wide war I suppose its quite logical that you cannot stop some cities from being destroyed. Also its logical and realistic that better organized close cities can defend themselves better.

Also I like the idea that players need to consider the distance to their alliance mates as a factor when joining an alliance or building cities too, not only to try to capture the best places in the map. 

Although I like the idea of making more defenses for those who like to put effort and resources to them. Especially defensive fort/fortresses to sov. squares that could be used points for blocking potential siege squares and sally forth against the siege armies. Later these forts could be used gathering taxes from roads and so on when pathfinding and roads are introduced.


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Erik Dirk View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2011 at 23:07
Creature, you may say that sally for is good enough, but you have to agree that siege is still waaaay too fast. It's been stated many times that players like the leisurely pace of this game, however doesn't the possibility of loosing an entire city in a day, fly in the face of these players?

Oh also are you really in favour of alliance clusters being a huge, HUGE! strategic advantage.  With the use of feints it would be impossible for a spread out alliance to prevent cities being destroyed. Yes there should be some tactical advantage in clusters, but if say a couple of buildings got damages in the say 2 days it takes to re-inforce a town it would be much fairer than loosing the entire city.

What many of us are saying is that the speed of a siege is unrealistic, unbalanced, and ultimately bad for the game. Some of us would like greater defence which could be more controversial but surely you must agree with the above.


Edited by Erik Dirk - 12 Oct 2011 at 23:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2011 at 20:55
Originally posted by Thexion Thexion wrote:

New Buildings don't slower building time it lowers the cost of upkeep unless you are not talking about sovereignty buildings.  




So what you are saying is that these buildings make your troops harder to kill? For each level the building increases, the percentage bonus is an increase of your troops survival in a battle?

Example:

Cavalry building now gives a 6% upkeep bonus for cavalry. Which in turn, increases the chance the charioteers will not die in a battle?



Edited by Truth - 12 Oct 2011 at 20:57
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