Harvesting hides and animal parts

Gragnog wrote: You kill it you harvest it. You did not kill it, then you take a risk harvesting it. Stop moaning and crying when you want to get some things for free instead of earning it. The cost of troops in combating NPC's is far greater than a few skinners. My opinion has been very clear from the start. And to Nesse (Odd), had you bothered to read my profile like I mentioned to you months ago you would have known what my attitude is without trying to make it a propaganda event in the forum. The rest of my neighbours harvest their kills and even some of mine due to the fact that they bothered to contact me and reach some agreement.

Gragnog, for someone who keeps talking about the importance of discussion to reach an agreement, you still do not get my main objection - after quite a few mails and ... "trying to make it a propaganda event in the forum".
I got two teams of 60 skinners killed BEFORE you contacted me, and then a third team of 60 killed at six squares from your town after I had believed and put trust in your mail to me where you clearly stated that you would mark kills you wanted to harvest if outside a five square radius from your towns (Did you check my profile before killing my skinners?). I disagree with your valuation of troops and skinners, I disagree with your use of the "10-square rule", and I do not like your idea that everybody must be aware where your towns are and understand that things that you have killed are dangerous to pick up. You could easily have scouted and bumped my skinners, and requested payment for lost harvest. Never mind your valued cavalry, to me 60 skinners are way more valuable than 60 wolf furs even though the market cost for hides and wolf furs are similar. You have never asked me to replace lost harvest - on the contrary at the only occasion I am aware of "having got away with" harvesting something you killed (on first of april), you told me I could take it. I am NOW aware where your towns are and also that I have to be careful within a range of ten squares around them. Well, careful as in death zone...
I (Nesse & Odd) have 18 towns in about a dozen areas, quite far apart, and in about a third of those areas there are pretty large numbers of self-killed npc's. (I am quite certain they are self-killed, as I very rarely see any harvesters or armies moving, and the ones I have checked were predominantly mixed animals.) A second third doesn't have much npc's, and what is dead usually has an army on it, and the last third have occasional self-dead piles but mostly the animals seem to get along. It is not a strange conclusion that a lot of dead animals in one place are due to animals killing each other. Do as you request of others, please, and talk before you engage in wanton killing!

I guess everyone is trying to convince me skinners are more valuable than Marshals. My position has been made pretty clear that I value troops over gatherers and thus if people value their gatherers over troops then do not harvest what you did not kill or be willing to take the risk of losing your valuable gatherers. I do see the other sides point and if I put a value on the items I might feel inclined to agree with you all, but sadly I do not see the value of things I make for free. I get pleasure from the fact that I gather and make most of what I need, and those items I am short of I buy from markets and other players. There is no winner in this debate, only different opinions, but I am pleased that it can be debated and I do not kill gatherers randomly, only those on my kills within 10 squares of my cities and only if no contact has been made before they arrive.

Llyr wrote: Here's my view on "opportunity cost". I walk into a store with a dollar. There are two things in the store, a candy bar and a bag of chips (crisps for my UK readers). Each costs a dollar, so I have to choose one. I buy the candy bar and give the storekeeper my dollar. According to the "opportunity cost" idea, I could have bought the chips, so that means I owe someone another dollar. Or that the candy bar actually costs two dollars. Or something equally silly. To try and get back on the actual topic, I don't really have any "cost" to build skinners. I can easily harvest any hides I need, and I usually just grab those hides (and other animal parts) off the map and rarely make kills myself. Fortunately I don't live near Gragnog . And if I do have cotters or skinners killed occasionally (and it does happen), then I just make new ones.

Gragnog wrote: The cost of troops and gatherers and the value of them differers from person to person. In my opinion gatherers are cheap and troops are expensive. Basing the value on market prices is really amusing to me as those are based on what people think things are worth. For me hides and other gathered items cost nothing as I gather them myself but I never have enough weapons and armour and have to buy those, thus to me troops cost something and gatherers cost nothing. Trying to convince me 60 skinners are worth more than 60 Marshals is a joke. Animal parts around my cities and hides are never sold but converted into items my military can use.

Llyr wrote: Also my brain keeps screaming opportunity cost at me as i sat through way too many lectures about that to ever get it out of my brain >.> As someone who is not an economist, but has been involved in business and financial decisions for over 30 years, I have to confess that the whole notion of "opportunity cost" seems totally bogus to me. Once you make a decision to spend money on something, that's it. There can be no genuine "cost" to something that you didn't do. But since economists are obviously doing a great job in running our real world economies perhaps I might be wrong .

I kind of agree with you in general, Llyr, with the major exception of time. I feel that opportunity costs in time are very real and all too often lamentable!