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Le Roux 
Wordsmith
Joined: 30 May 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 151
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 Posted: 18 Nov 2013 at 05:00 |
Lord, I do not know whether I am a "Real" Crow or not, but since day 3 of my Illy career I have been in one (or more) crow wings... and very true, I think that there are "real" crows on both sides of this conflict and in the middle. I have great respect for people on both sides, but one side clearly has more of those with whom I do feel bear me ill-will (and despite my feelings on the overall war, I honestly do not think many H? bear me Ill, for I have counted many of them as those who I have had the utmost respect, and I do not think I have done any great wrong to any) . The actions of late have indeed been polarizing.
I believe the war has indeed many, many root causes, no doubt the result of many not fully appreciating that some actions thought innocent could be perceived as a with a hint of ulterior motive, and that when many of these acts, when taken together could build to a level where conflict seems inevitible.
Everyone joins Illy with a different perspective, and likely views events through their own rose or not so rose colored glasses.
That two different groups could view the same series of events in very different light is hardly surprising, it is simply human nature.
I know I have my own perspective on events... and I'd wager that not many across the aisle would agree with mine, nor I with theirs. Even within the former Crowfed, consensus was hard enough to achieve....
I must admit, I do clearly detect a change in tone in GC and in many a forum thread .. I do recall some quote that Vanerin noted in some other thread about looking into the abyss and something .. something .. something it may well be apropo... Vanerin is indeed wise beyond his years . . .
I think it was:
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." Nietzsche
Sincerely. LeRoux / Mona Lisa
P.S. Need examples of what might be viewed as inflammatory to some? H? review your more recent recruitments and how perhaps some moves could have been... misinterpreted
Edited by Le Roux - 18 Nov 2013 at 05:17
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Garth
Forum Warrior
Joined: 10 May 2012
Location: Somewhere, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 249
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Posted: 18 Nov 2013 at 02:34 |
 Kumomoto wrote:
I just want all the real Crows out there to know this, as no single member of H? or our allies hate the Crowalition. Just because a couple of your alliances have decided to merge with or assimilate enemies of ours and declare war on us ..[snip].. don't think that we, as a bloc have anything but continuing love for the Crowalition and what the "Crows" have always been...
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You might want to get to know all the members of your coalition a bit better. Over the couple of years I've been in the Crowfed, there have been a litany of plots, encroachments, outright operations and general hostilities towards my alliance, other Crow alliances, the Crowfed as a whole or individual Crow players. Lo and behold, when I look on the (New) Coalition side of this war, I see more than one of those parties involved. This is not secret knowledge, some of it has been rather public, though perhaps unrecognized at face value. I don't think you'd have to go far within your coalition to get confirmation of anti-Crow (in one form or another) sentiments.
You may or may not be aware of the sentiments of your allies; that doesn't mean those sentiments don't exist.
*edited to remove redundancies
Edited by Garth - 18 Nov 2013 at 02:35
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Garthen
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Jane DarkMagic
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 554
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Posted: 18 Nov 2013 at 00:28 |
I don't understand the point of this thread besides arguing semantics and assigning labels to warring sides. People will always label the enemy side unfavorably and those not engaging at war or on one's side favorably.
Though seeing a good old Rill vs. Kumo throwdown does make me a bit nostalgic. Talk about rivalries of the ages! Those two have been going at in the forums for years. Nice to know Rill can still show up and deal some verbal blows despite repeatedly trashing the game and claiming to have better things to do than play Illy... *golf claps*
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 22:56 |
Aristeas wrote:
Then tell me, what exactly is the difference between the "real" crows Kumo tried so hard to befriend/exhortate and the ones being assimilated/corrupted by your enemies?
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The difference is not something that I can define or something that I feel that I have the right to define. Only crows can do that and as you can see, Scottfizz objected to that characterism and it was partly (or maybe fully, I cannot tell) withdrawn by Kumomoto, whereupon he explained what he meant by it.
Which I think covers that question. 
Aristeas wrote:
Nothing
else than the "real" ones not going into a senseless war with you, as I
said in the brackets (after telling that it´s an shortening. Mind your
own conflict here some weeks ago where you defended a fellow H? for
putting brackets after saying that what would follow would be more or less what have been said and not an exact quote). |
Indeed I did and that is why in this case I said that if this is how you understood the topic, then all is fine by me, BUT I think that you will agree that I cannot be called to apologize for something that I do not see in the original topic at all and I consider a misunderstanding.
I can however explain where our difference lies.
In the original topic (and imho the post by Kumomoto towards ScottFizz validates my original understanding of this thread) the war is not considered as the problem per se, but as a natural by-product of a change in policy/playstyle of some people. On that change is the topic emphasizing that DESPITE IT, noone in H? or our allies harbors any ill will towards the Crowalition as a whole and that we never wanted that war to happen.
Nowhere in the topic does it say that the people that took up the war banners are somehow "misguided" or that they, as Rill put it, "should come to their senses". Nowhere. It just says that it is sad for us, as a whole, to see that some people chose to take some Crow Wings to war.
It doesn't call them "sad exceptions", like Rill did, it doesn't demean them and it doesn't offer condescending comments on that choice they made ... Just our sadness on the whole issue.
I wouldn't have bothered to comment much on this topic, but, you see, in the last war in many a Consone debate I pointed up and looked up to the way the Crowfed had organized its wings and how it worked and I, for one, still think that it was a good arrangement and that it worked very well for many years and thus I do not like the present situation in the server.
But, like it or not, neither me nor the topic, as it clearly states, do not judge them or begrudge them for their choices and therein lies the difference with what Rill wrote and this is exactly what makes your brief summary of the topic inaccurate, imho.
Aristeas wrote:
It´s not made up of thin air, it´s just a shortenig of Kumos post as I understood it. If you or other members of your alliance seems to be mistaken, especially by ones not being your enemies ( I was in DLord and left mainly because I was very ill prepared for a conflict with towns being scattered around etc. ), you should have an interest in how your statements could be mistaken instead of finding it funny.
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I hope that now I have explained sufficiently why I didn't consider it as an accurate shortening of Kumomoto's post and that is why I couldn't reply to that. Btw, I find most interesting discussions funny/amusing, so do not be taken too much by the emoticons I place. Something can be extremely funny and serious at the same time for me ... I just weird like that ... 
Aristeas wrote:
She never claimed that, and more often then not said, that it was just her personal opinion she was expressing in hope of changeing some things.
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Maybe not, but she does act like it imho, but I will not insist on the matter ... I just pointed out what I didn't like in what she wrote and explained why ... Nothing more, nothing less.
Aristeas wrote:
The funny thing is, that this comes from a H?player, whos alliance had actually brought such criticisms into harsh actions like the consone war.
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I am not a mouthpiece for the alliance, Aristeas. .. I hold no position in H? other than a simple member ... I just happen to like interacting in fora more than the average person.
Aristeas wrote:
I was in DLords and will be again after the war, and I just can´t see how I should be offended by her statement, sorry.
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Well, I never said that everyone should miraculously agree with me on that ... 
Aristeas wrote:
Of course she is opinionated, but it´s not like H? has not it´s share in opinionated people. Maybe being able to tolerate opinionated people seems to be the clue to stay outside this messy conflict^^ |
Ahaahha quite so ... they even put up with me ...
But, you see, there is a fine difference between being opinionated and being accusative ...
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Angrim
Postmaster General
Joined: 02 Nov 2011
Location: Laoshin
Status: Offline
Points: 1173
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Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 22:01 |
Rill wrote:
Telling a friend that you believe that they are making a mistake is not the act of an enemy. |
qft. even those who seem to know this do not always allow it to inform them. but as for it being an act of true friendship...well, there are friendly ways to disagree, and there are others. a soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger, regardless of who is in the right.the term "real crows" is unfortunate. there is nothing unreal about having been a crow of any feather.
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Aristeas
Greenhorn
Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 77
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Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 21:57 |
Deranzin wrote:
You just made that up and put it in brackets and you want me to answer for something YOU created out of thin air .?. 
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Then tell me, what exactly is the difference between the "real" crows Kumo tried so hard to befriend/exhortate and the ones being assimilated/corrupted by your enemies? Nothing else than the "real" ones not going into a senseless war with you, as I said in the brackets (after telling that it´s an shortening. Mind your own conflict here some weeks ago where you defended a fellow H? for putting brackets after saying that what would follow would be more or less what have been said and not an exact quote).
It´s not made up of thin air, it´s just a shortenig of Kumos post as I understood it. If you or other members of your alliance seems to be mistaken, especially by ones not being your enemies ( I was in DLord and left mainly because I was very ill prepared for a conflict with towns being scattered around etc. ), you should have an interest in how your statements could be mistaken instead of finding it funny.
Deranzin wrote:
No, people making their own choices and standing by them is definitely not bad.
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Exactly that is what Rill thinks too, so she laments the fact, that some allies (unlike the 'real' crows), at least seemingly as far as she can see, did less own consideration then her part in the conflict. A totally understandable stance ( and thus no insult ) as far as I am concerned, if some parts of your friends back out for deescalating the conflict, lamenting that others on the other side did it not is just being consequential. So she cannot but find it sad, probably as you find it sad that others declared on you. As she is on the side of no declaration, she of course has to find declarations bad. Of course you don´t have to share all her premises (I do neither), but you know them at least, so I don´t get it how you can think she intends what you are writing... Just mind that minds like her saved you from more declarations, attacking her for this stance seems suicidal for me here...
Deranzin wrote:
as if someone appointed her the sole judge of reason and happiness and all those players are somehow beneath her and should adhere to her as the "voice of reason".
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She never claimed that, and more often then not said, that it was just her personal opinion she was expressing in hope of changeing some things. Not that I am always of her opinion (she is too far on the "peace" side as far as I am concerned, mind that I had no problems with the EE/v side of your war, as Rill would prolly have had), but somehow I never read that much into her voiced opinion, and she herself made it clear often enough that she never intended her statements to be so harsh and encompassing, so I don´t really get it how you can think that they are...
The funny thing is, that this comes from a H?player, whos alliance had actually brought such criticisms into harsh actions like the consone war. She is at least consequential in letting it all happen on a purly oral form, while your decisions in history and probaly in the future will very much and very 'real' hit other players happiness (not saying it was not justified, just saying your way much more touches upon others happiness then she mouthing her opinion about it. If you can´t bear her personal opinion concerning others happiness, how dare you to actually mess with it in a much more real way? (not saying that to imply that you shouldn´t mess with other people, but that you should at least be able to bear other people mess with you verbally while you messed with others much more than just verbally... And I don´t see where she is unbearably mean and evil, especially for someone of your alliance with it´s own opinionated members))
Deranzin wrote:
Did we have a vote as a community where we allowed Rill to insult and patronize everyone and I didn't notice .?.
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I was in DLords and will be again after the war, and I just can´t see how I should be offended by her statement, sorry. Of course she is opinionated, but it´s not like H? has not it´s share in opinionated people. Maybe being able to tolerate opinionated people seems to be the clue to stay outside this messy conflict^^
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 20:54 |
The Duke wrote:
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If for some reason you think this is the first misquote in the forum your mistaken, I never claimed that this is the first one that I have seen, nor the last one ... ... but it is certainly a rare occasion where people ignore the people that did the misquote and point fingers at the people that noticed the misquote.
The Duke wrote:
But please on with your mighty campaign of misleadings. |
No misleading in my posts, sorry. I just noted a misquote, which was a self-evident fact ... nothing more, nothing less.
The Duke wrote:
Ill just see
you when we are watching you surrender. |
You keep saying that, but aren't you rushing a bit .?. The war just started dude ... Peace is one thing that can happen at any point should you people in the leaderships find a magic formula for it, but the surrender point for either side is quite a looooooooong way away for both sides.
The Duke wrote:
Then you can tell me about this
city count a little more. Maybe tell me how Rill doesnt matter, and tell
me how illy is gonna cease to exist without H? leading the server.  |
Those are all your sayings, not mine. I have said nothing of the like and even if you like to demean yourself by stooping to slander, I do not like seeing other players fall to that level.
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The Duke
Forum Warrior
Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 464
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Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:43 |
If for some reason you think this is the first misquote in the forum your mistaken, But please on with your mighty campaign of misleadings. Ill just see you when we are watching you surrender. Then you can tell me about this city count a little more. Maybe tell me how Rill doesnt matter, and tell me how illy is gonna cease to exist without H? leading the server. 
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"Our generation has had no Great Depression, no Great War. Our war is spiritual. Our depression is our lives."
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Deranzin
Postmaster
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845
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Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:33 |
Darkwords wrote:
Actually if you read it in whole it has 2 'you's which
alludes to the idea that I was in someway responsible. If it only had
'you all' then obviously it would only be directed at the alliance as a
whole if we forgive the pedantics that 'you' relates to something in
existence (which the alliance no longer is). |
So instead
of doing the reasonable thing of assuming that it was a typo, you just
cut the quote in half and pulled the whole thing out of context. About
the small fact that he was referring to the WHOLE ALLIANCE before that
typo should have at least tipped you on ...
Darkwords wrote:
But
this merely exemplifies one way in which Kumo attempts to spin matters,
by alluding to things in a way that allows him to stand back and say he
meant something different when questioned.
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How does YOUR obvious misquoting exemplified that someone ELSE is spinning anything is beyond me.
The Duke wrote:
DeathDealer89 wrote:
Darkwords wrote:
But this merely exemplifies one way in which Kumo attempts to spin matters, by alluding to things in a way that allows him to stand back and say he meant something different when questioned.
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Actually it was pretty clear that 'you all' meant a group of people not an individual. In fact misquoting somebody is one of the most common forms of 'spin' that everybody here supposedly hates. |
i disagree, h? love to spin |
Dude, a blatant case of deliberate misquoting is right in front of you and all you have to say is "H? this" and "H? that" .?.
Edit:
scaramouche wrote:
Well...I'm glad you cleared that point up Deranzin, because I for one did actually think he solely meant Dark was the cause.
so your wrong about "no one" would think like that. |
Well, I said that "one could say", not that I was saying, just to cover for that possibility, but I do appreciate pointing that out. Can I revise it then to "most people" .?. 
Edited by Deranzin - 17 Nov 2013 at 19:40
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Darkwords
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 May 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1005
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Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 19:27 |
DeathDealer89 wrote:
Darkwords wrote:
But this merely exemplifies one way in which Kumo attempts to spin matters, by alluding to things in a way that allows him to stand back and say he meant something different when questioned.
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Actually it was pretty clear that 'you all' meant a group of people not an individual. In fact misquoting somebody is one of the most common forms of 'spin' that everybody here supposedly hates. |
Yes and as I said, there were 2 'you's, try reading my entire post, rather than quoting half of it in a blatant attempt to avoid addressing the real matter.
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