Game Balance: Diplomatic Units

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Hi all,

Change list is now available towards the end of Page 3 of this thread.

I'm soliciting thoughts on game balance changes, specifically to Diplomatic Units - but the proposals have some knock-on effects onto other things.

I'm raising this now as we're now seeing the effects of theft from advanced units, and we're not yet at the point of saboteur units ingame - and I want to get this right before we get there.

So, here goes.

THE THREE ISSUES:

ISSUE 1. THIEF UNITS - ESPECIALLY ADVANCED ONES - ARE UNBALANCED

Thieves carry 5 times more than military units can, have the benefit of being able to steal advanced resources, and also have the benefit of - if the mission is successful - a zero casualty rate.  Yes, the Vault is there to protect resources, but with the higher level building requirements the Vault doesn't come close to protecting all that is needed.  We're not in favour of increasing vault capacity; the purposes of the Vault building is to give new players some for of protection, but it is a building that should be "outgrown" fairly swiftly.

ISSUE 2. SABOTEUR UNITS ARE UNBALANCED

Saboteurs, in their current formation will totally destroy the next building and/or research item on the queue, and this is surely overkill especially as people get towards multi-day build and research requirements.  Given that a wave of cheap, throwaway scouts can clear out any protective runes, it's wrong that the only real defence against Building Saboteurs is to spend prestige on instabuild options.  Given that there is no research queue instabuild option (nor will there be), there is actually no real defence against research Saboteur operations (unless you have saboteurs of your own).

ISSUE 3. THERE SHOULD BE A PENALTY FOR CLEARING OUT RUNES WITH CHEAP UNITS
Waves of very cheap units can clear out defensive runes, and - again - this is broadly unbalanced.

THE SET MENU OF SOLUTIONS, BUT WE ALSO DO A LA CARTE AND KITCHEN REQUESTS:

We think that the following options are on the table - but we encourage anyone to come up with other options that fit the bill if they're better ideas.

We are willing to implement some, many or all of the following:

1. CHANGES TO DIPLOMATIC UNIT COSTS TO MAKE THEIR LOSS MORE MEANINGFUL
We're considering a basic unit gold upkeep of 2 for basic (and 4 for advanced) for all diplomatic units, plus requiring Horses for basic units and Horses + Saddles for advanced units of all diplomatic types.

2. CHANGES TO DIPLOMATIC MISSION OUTCOME ALGORITHM
At the moment it's all or nothing - you either succeed and escape with all your units, or fail and die with all your units.  Introducing a diplomatic unit "casualty" calculation would mean that, actually, that much smaller number of defensive diplomatic units would still extract some penalty from the greater numbered agressor.

3. CHANGES TO UNITS CONSIDERED DURING DIPLOMATIC MISSION OUTCOME RESOLUTION
At the moment it takes a thief to catch a thief, and takes a saboteur to catch a saboteur.  We're considering changing this so that all diplomatic units present to defend a city are made part of the calculation, with different weightings.

So, for example, defensive thieves would be very good at catching offensive theft missions, but equally defensive scouts could also provide some (substantially lesser) protection from theft.

4. CHANGES TO THIEF CARRYING CAPACITY
Thief carrying capacity should be brought in line with military units. They still get the advantage of the ability to steal advanced resources.

5. SABOTEURS DO NOT DESTROY BUILDINGS, THEY DELAY THEM
Saboteur units - instead of completely destroying a building in the queue - would delay the construction of the building, adding time (current thought is 1 hour per successful saboteur) up to a maximum delay (current thought is double the time to build the building from scratch).  This would mean that saboteurs are unable to completely cripple a small growing town from a player straight out of new player protection - which they would, currently be able to, but equally provide some meaningful penalty to larger cities.

6. SABOTEURS DO NOT CANCEL RESEARCH
Simply remove this entirely, given that there is no way whatsoever of speeding research.  

The difference between basic and advanced saboteur units could be (apart from their success chance) that advanced saboteur units could delay the construction of both items on the build queue, or alternatively delay the building for longer.

7. REMOVE INSTABUILD OPTION AND REPLACE WITH HALVE CONSTRUCTION TIME
Basically, take out the instabuild option and replace it with something akin to the "Double Movement Speed of currently moving caravans".

8. NEW SUB SCHOOL FOR RUNES - TARGETTED SLAYING
Allow a new subschool of Runes that only kills *specific* unit types (eg scouts, thieves, spearmen, cavalry etc).  When you cast the spell you would have to specify the type that the rune would effect.  

This school would probably cost a little more than the current "blanket" slaying runes, but would also have more charges.

As mentioned earlier, we're very happy to consider alternatives; and 
we're also very happy to hear coherent and rational arguments as to why 
we should do items 1,3,5 & 7 but not 2,4,6 & 8.  They're all 
up-for-grabs.

I'd be grateful for any and all feeback on these proposals for anyone who wants to put a "for the good of the game balance" hat on.  Unlike most hats, these ones are very stylish and make you look cool.

Thanks in advance,

GM Stormcrow

Edited by GM Stormcrow - 28 Mar 2010 at 19:14

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GM Stormcrow Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group GM Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Location: Illyria Status: Offline Points: 3820	Posted: 24 Mar 2010 at 10:58
	Hi all, Change list is now available towards the end of Page 3 of this thread. I'm soliciting thoughts on game balance changes, specifically to Diplomatic Units - but the proposals have some knock-on effects onto other things. I'm raising this now as we're now seeing the effects of theft from advanced units, and we're not yet at the point of saboteur units ingame - and I want to get this right before we get there. So, here goes. THE THREE ISSUES: ISSUE 1. THIEF UNITS - ESPECIALLY ADVANCED ONES - ARE UNBALANCED Thieves carry 5 times more than military units can, have the benefit of being able to steal advanced resources, and also have the benefit of - if the mission is successful - a zero casualty rate. Yes, the Vault is there to protect resources, but with the higher level building requirements the Vault doesn't come close to protecting all that is needed. We're not in favour of increasing vault capacity; the purposes of the Vault building is to give new players some for of protection, but it is a building that should be "outgrown" fairly swiftly. ISSUE 2. SABOTEUR UNITS ARE UNBALANCED Saboteurs, in their current formation will totally destroy the next building and/or research item on the queue, and this is surely overkill especially as people get towards multi-day build and research requirements. Given that a wave of cheap, throwaway scouts can clear out any protective runes, it's wrong that the only real defence against Building Saboteurs is to spend prestige on instabuild options. Given that there is no research queue instabuild option (nor will there be), there is actually no real defence against research Saboteur operations (unless you have saboteurs of your own). ISSUE 3. THERE SHOULD BE A PENALTY FOR CLEARING OUT RUNES WITH CHEAP UNITS Waves of very cheap units can clear out defensive runes, and - again - this is broadly unbalanced. THE SET MENU OF SOLUTIONS, BUT WE ALSO DO A LA CARTE AND KITCHEN REQUESTS: We think that the following options are on the table - but we encourage anyone to come up with other options that fit the bill if they're better ideas. We are willing to implement some, many or all of the following: 1. CHANGES TO DIPLOMATIC UNIT COSTS TO MAKE THEIR LOSS MORE MEANINGFUL We're considering a basic unit gold upkeep of 2 for basic (and 4 for advanced) for all diplomatic units, plus requiring Horses for basic units and Horses + Saddles for advanced units of all diplomatic types. 2. CHANGES TO DIPLOMATIC MISSION OUTCOME ALGORITHM At the moment it's all or nothing - you either succeed and escape with all your units, or fail and die with all your units. Introducing a diplomatic unit "casualty" calculation would mean that, actually, that much smaller number of defensive diplomatic units would still extract some penalty from the greater numbered agressor. 3. CHANGES TO UNITS CONSIDERED DURING DIPLOMATIC MISSION OUTCOME RESOLUTION At the moment it takes a thief to catch a thief, and takes a saboteur to catch a saboteur. We're considering changing this so that all diplomatic units present to defend a city are made part of the calculation, with different weightings. So, for example, defensive thieves would be very good at catching offensive theft missions, but equally defensive scouts could also provide some (substantially lesser) protection from theft. 4. CHANGES TO THIEF CARRYING CAPACITY Thief carrying capacity should be brought in line with military units. They still get the advantage of the ability to steal advanced resources. 5. SABOTEURS DO NOT DESTROY BUILDINGS, THEY DELAY THEM Saboteur units - instead of completely destroying a building in the queue - would delay the construction of the building, adding time (current thought is 1 hour per successful saboteur) up to a maximum delay (current thought is double the time to build the building from scratch). This would mean that saboteurs are unable to completely cripple a small growing town from a player straight out of new player protection - which they would, currently be able to, but equally provide some meaningful penalty to larger cities. 6. SABOTEURS DO NOT CANCEL RESEARCH Simply remove this entirely, given that there is no way whatsoever of speeding research. The difference between basic and advanced saboteur units could be (apart from their success chance) that advanced saboteur units could delay the construction of both items on the build queue, or alternatively delay the building for longer. 7. REMOVE INSTABUILD OPTION AND REPLACE WITH HALVE CONSTRUCTION TIME Basically, take out the instabuild option and replace it with something akin to the "Double Movement Speed of currently moving caravans". 8. NEW SUB SCHOOL FOR RUNES - TARGETTED SLAYING Allow a new subschool of Runes that only kills specific unit types (eg scouts, thieves, spearmen, cavalry etc). When you cast the spell you would have to specify the type that the rune would effect. This school would probably cost a little more than the current "blanket" slaying runes, but would also have more charges. As mentioned earlier, we're very happy to consider alternatives; and we're also very happy to hear coherent and rational arguments as to why we should do items 1,3,5 & 7 but not 2,4,6 & 8. They're all up-for-grabs. I'd be grateful for any and all feeback on these proposals for anyone who wants to put a "for the good of the game balance" hat on. Unlike most hats, these ones are very stylish and make you look cool. ~~Thanks in advance,~~ GM Stormcrow Edited by GM Stormcrow - 28 Mar 2010 at 19:14