Game and Metagame

Hadus wrote: This is the heart of the problem. Outside of the social aspect of the game, every mechanic is designed around the concept of warfare.

Great ideas, Hadus! Hope the devs implement some of that.

Rill, with regards to the comment you made in the OP about people having to twist the truth in order to work up a false justification for war, I think the problem is that the game itself is completely War-centric.

We have a barracks and consulate, which are used to attack other players (Sure, we can attack NPCs, but can you honestly say you'd enjoy it if not for the experience points your commanders earn?"

We have resource buildings to create books, horses, cows, saddles, beer, etc...which serve no in-game purpose other than to be crafted into instruments of war.

We have a vast trade system, a simple quest system, and now both gathering and crafting systems as well, for creating new items and engaging in the wonderfully-designed Illyriad trading...which is completely driven by the desire to gain powerful and large quantities of items to train and equip units for war.

We have magic, which does three things: produces more resources (see the previous point), defends against enemy units which as of now can only be from humans, and destroying opponents resources (an obvious act of aggression).


This is the heart of the problem. Outside of the social aspect of the game, every mechanic is designed around the concept of warfare.

Personally I believe this can be resolved by expanding the exploration and discovery portion of the game: have players building explorer, navigator, and adventurer units who can go on quests and learn more about the world, claiming artifacts and information as prizes and symbols of their prestige. Thus players would be able to compete and race to be the first to discover mysteries/complete quests, and generate conflict naturally as players place armies and diplomats in their rivals paths to derail them or steal their winnings, rather than seek to destroy their cities.

Rill wrote: Having wars can be fun.  I have never said differently.  What bothers me is the meta-game that demands that people lie to make up reasons for war.  And that really is a game that is completely dictated by us and who we are.  We make the rules in the metagame, we can make it fun or not. So there are two things really, the game and the metagame.  Illy is a rich world that can be played in a variety of ways.  The metagame is equally rich. In the game we are dwarves and elves playing with pixels. In the metagame we are human beings, and how we behave in the metagame may indeed reflect who we are. There are things that I would find acceptable or unacceptable to do in the metagame.  This is based partly on my own personal code of conduct and partly on what I have observed other people enjoy. I think a lot of people have been confusing the game and the metagame.  The game is where we siege people cities.  The metagame is where we pretend we've done it for a good reason. When people are talking about actions reflecting what people are like, they are reflecting on the metagame.  There are those who claim that their actions in the metagame do not reflect who they are.  This very claim reflects something about who that person is and how they see the world.

I am here for the metagame. I guarantee I would not play Illy if it was not highly conducive to metagaming. It's the person to person interaction, the jockeying for position, the political intrigue and everything that comes out of these that interests me.

Everything is a competition at some level. Like it or not, we are winners or a losers every step of the way.

Rill, you mentioned that folks spin events to their advantage ("lie to make up reasons for war.") They try to sway opinion to their side. That seems to me like a natural way we humans interact. The fact that some are better at it than others is not necessarily a bad thing and just because someone is not good at it does not make them weak. Unfortunately if one is not a good spinner, unless they can figure out some way to counter the expert spinner, they will likely end up the looser.

Now, when the spin is full of lies, those lies act like holes and the holes weaken the argument. Add enough lies and the argument collapses. Change a time here, forget a name there, deflate numbers all around, leaving out pertinent facts, it can be heady and enticing but it can spin out of control in a split second. Throw in a bunch of alliance members all trying to sound like an authority on the subject and look out.

There is no way to police this, here or in RL. This thread can't accomplish much, if anything but I do enjoy participating in the metagame as well as discussing it, thus my post.

again with the name-calling